I am playing around with a post apocalyptic game that open with the PCs fighting the BBEG and of course getting killed. They do come back, but only after the world is ruined. So then, do you think that I should let my players know ahead of time that they will be killed, but that they will also be coming back?
Yes. Definitely tell them that they will be killed. Tell them that this is just a prologue and that the real story begins after the fight scene.
Will they be playing the exact same characters? Let them know that so they don't build throw aways.
Will they be playing the same characters but lower level? Then you could either tell them that or just that they should build their (initial) characters with the race/class/gender/fluff they want to play through the campaign.
Agreed, you've got to tell them about it. Tell them now and you won't go wrong, you've got to ...
Hopefully some players will enjoy riding the rails to hell as well. Maybe ham it up as they 'die'. And now I'm getting a slight 'Samurai Jack' vibe--not the same, of course, but a little similar, you fight the BBEG, then find yourself in the future.
But let them know the gimmick so they don't feel 'cheated' out of things. And keep an eye to letting them be survivable in the Wasteland afterwards -- remember, they're going to be stuck in it, and if nothing else you need to sort out who takes the Toaster Repair skill.
Generally its advisable to tell them..otherwise it can get messy.
From an interpersonal version and from a characxter item wise too.
Nothing worst in a videogame than fighitng a boss your suppose to lose from and spending every item (including that super duper healing or attack item you've ever since you won (after hours of trying) a casino thing) and in some games even throwing every cent you have at them (literally) only to find you had to lose. and you wasted all that time and money etc.
Rather than having them play out the scene. I would ask them straight up. Do you want to play the scene and see if you can win ? (while letting them know its basically impossible)or do you want to cut scene it where I tell you all how it goes down so you don't have to feel like you wasted anything.
On the other hand, there's nothing quite as cool as winning the un-winnable boss fight, although Chrono Trigger and Cross are the only games I know of that allow it.
I would never warn them. They might be disapointed for a moment but when you reveal the plot, morale will rise again. It will make the players aware that there are some fights you can t win and they have to negotiate. It will also make them aware of the mortalaty of their character. For me there s nothing worth then to play a setting like ravenloft and noone has any respect for their characters life. They think they are immortal heros and breeze through the encounters. You want them to win the battle but it s so much more rewarding for everyone when it was a real challenge.
You are setting a tone with this encounter! If my players get to reckless, I normaly kill one of them at early levels, which is a less optimal way then what you are doing. Very nice idea for a start
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Nohwear --
Yes, I think you should warn your players. It's a fabulous story idea, but it needs player buy-in. With proper warning, you'll get people signing up who'll be eager for this sort of story.
I have another, more important question to ask. As a previous player in a campaign of yours, I think it's fair for me to ask this: Do you now have what it takes to see this one through? I know you have great ideas, and the best of intentions. But you probably should GM some short, pre-scripted stuff and finish it before you take on an epic homebrew like this.
Hmm
I would never warn them. They might be disapointed for a moment but when you reveal the plot, morale will rise again.
It will indeed, but only because I'm dead and therefore don't need to participate in this really stupidly deceptive campaign any more.
Player buy-in is critical to a successful adventure.
If you need to lie to the players in order to get them to buy what you are offering them, you're committing fraud. And you should rethink your campaign as well as your life.
Warn.
TPK's suck. If they know it's for plot reason, then that's good. They should also know enough that their characters don't suck in the new world.
@Hmm, One, this was not necessarily going to be a PbP game. Two, whatever way I chose to launch this game, I plan to spend a lot more time on pre game prep then I have been. Three, if I do try my hand at running a game here, then I will start with a small module and worry about rather I continue at the end.
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I have a crazy idea, but I'm just that kind of guy. Get this. What if instead of either tricking the players into a railroaded disaster, or forcing them to play through a prologue where everyone already knows how it's going to end and that has no meaningful choices, you just narrate that whole segment in about 2 minutes and then start the game?
Edit: looks like I'm not the only crazy one. That's what I get for not refreshing right before hitting submit.
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On the other hand, there's nothing quite as cool as winning the un-winnable boss fight, although Chrono Trigger and Cross are the only games I know of that allow it.Breath of Fire games too. Lufia I think has one.. you win get a ton of exp and items but the story plays as if you lost.
Uhm. A lot of Atlus games (in particularly Megumi Tensei games.. Digital Devil Saga comes to mind)
So really just the old "greats" do
Most new games don't.
Oh Tales of Symphonia has a fight you can win that is near impossible. Like I was under leveled but great a t dodging and spent like an hour in the fight haha. But I know peeps who leveled crazy well and just beat him (and then the rest of the game was insane easy until near the end--where they're suppose to be that level)
but that fight is pretty much made so you have to lose.
Dark Souls has the (first encounter) with the Asylum Demon. Not really impossible (and decently easy if you have the right starting item), but the default is to run away from it, and fight it a bit later with the advantage of a bit better equipment, the ability to heal yourself a few times, and an initial plunging first attack that does massive damage.
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You know your table better than any of us, but I would continue to strongly encourage you to tell them. Or, which is probably a better idea, simply narrate the battle as the introduction to the campaign.
This is one thing that could happen:
Players begin the session, unaware of your plans. The battle begins. The scene described is dangerous, so the player's adrenaline rushes as they find themselves in media res and prepare for battle.
The first round of combat begins. Heavy damage is dished out to the players' side, and they've made relatively less damage to the enemy side. Fear kicks in. "Gosh, I just started with this character that I've carefully crafted, and I might lose him in the first session! Is this how the whole campaign is going to go?"
Combat continues. As each character falls, panic begins to grow in each surviving character.
Someone has a bright idea to retreat (even if they don't know where they'll retreat to) because obviously the GM meant for them to run away from this overpowering fight in order to live to fight another day. Hope peeks into some of the players.
But! The enemy easily chases them down/shuts off their escape/kills them before they can get away. "What the hell? Is this the power level we were supposed to be coming in as? I build my character for social interaction as well as combat."
The players are left with a bitter taste in their mouths and confusion.
"Lo! I the GM bring your characters back from the dead to find the world aflame. NOW the adventure begins!" *Play title track music*
Players think: "How can we trust anything this guy tells us about the world? Does he think over powered enemies are fun to pit against players? Man, I'm so mad right now, I just don't even want to think about continuing/showing up next session."
Edit: P.S. If this is an online game with text interface, then I would triply encourage you to tell them. Nothing goes so wrong as that over text.
P.P.S. I've actually done something similar to what you're planning, and by not telling the involved parties, it did not turn out well.
On the other hand, there's nothing quite as cool as winning the un-winnable boss fight, although Chrono Trigger and Cross are the only games I know of that allow it.
Breath of Fire games too. Lufia I think has one.. you win get a ton of exp and items but the story plays as if you lost.
Uhm. A lot of Atlus games (in particularly Megumi Tensei games.. Digital Devil Saga comes to mind)
So really just the old "greats" do
Most new games don't.
Oh Tales of Symphonia has a fight you can win that is near impossible. Like I was under leveled but great a t dodging and spent like an hour in the fight haha. But I know peeps who leveled crazy well and just beat him (and then the rest of the game was insane easy until near the end--where they're suppose to be that level)
but that fight is pretty much made so you have to lose.=============
So split the difference. If they participate in the fight. and somehow win. Reward them with special items of some kind. even if "story wise" they still lose
The original dragon age had a moment where you were ambushed by like 15 archers inside of a mansion and arrested.
I found out through skill,cunning and plenty of blood Magic that it was actually possible to win the fight if you resisted.Normally if you resist you are knocked out and put into prison.
The story actually changes slightly if you win against the ambush, although you never get to explore the prison area.
TELL THEM! I repeat, TELL THEM! I had this happen to me twice and it sucked both times (not so much for me but for everyone else at the table).
If they have no chance of winning then what's the point of playing out the fight? What does it accomplish?
What kind of post-apocalypse are we talking about? No magic? No gods? Primitive technology? Everything is ruled by an evil overlord?
I would first check and see if the players are even interested in playing a post-apocalyptic wold.
Ooo ooo ooo!!!
So I only read the opening post as a warning.
I've been wanting to let my players build level 20 versions of their characters before starting at level 1 for a while now. This would be the perfect way to do it!
So them at 20 vs the BBEG and he just wipes the floor with them (over a few rounds of course). This shows them they need to do something extra when they finally face him at the end of the adventure.
(if you dont plan to go to 20 any other should work too)
I think Disgaea 2 had a few 'unwinnable' boss fights..but given how absurdly you can grind in them, you can win. And end the game at that point for other reasons, oops.
I'm now imagining two other scenarios:
One, you narrate the loss. Get their input, let them know they're going to lose, give them a chance to have some fun with the idea if they so choose. Even if it's a PC yelling 'NOOO!' in slow motion.
Two, you have them fight..but it's a normal winnable one. And then they get wiped out later (in narration). I'm thinking similar to the opening in Chrono Cross here.
I agree with the narration idea, though I would also ask to see if anyone wants to play out the fight. If it's a true Big Bad, he'll have tactics and habits that smart players can latch on to and have their characters rememer or even train for when they meet again. If they skip over the battle, they'll lose out on this information and their next encounter with the Big Bad will seem entirely new to them.
And on the note of games with 'impossible' battles at the start, I'd like to bring up Rondo of Swords, a DS game from Atlus. Your very first mission has you fleeing the city while it's under siege. When you approach the exit, a bunch of powerful enemies show up and the final boss and his generals are right behind. You're supposed to run away to an alternate exit, but patience and cunning can let you triumph over the high level mooks that you'd normally run into mid game, and even take a general or two (they drop some of the best items in the game) before needing to run for your lives. And if you're really lucky or are on a New Game+, you can actually beat the Emperor here (he'll retreat) and finish the level that way.
Infinite Space also does this and does the inverse as well. The tutorial has you play as the most powerful pirate in both the Small and Large Magellanic Clouds as a military task force tries to arrest you before you blow them to smithereens. You then swap to the protagnist who is laughably weak by comparison as he's just starting his journey. When you meet up with the pirate from the before, you're given a tutorial on boarding parties wherein he sends 8000 troops to your 100-200...You lose before you even get to act. But then the plot moves on.