Two weapon fighting and natural attacks


Rules Questions


Hi,

was figuring out a build for TWF plus natural attacks. found something nice, but im not 100% sure if its working.

Halforc with "toothy" (giving a d4 bite)
Ranger2/Fighter6 (Level 8 build Overall.

feats:
Level 1 (RAN): improved unarmed strike
Level 2 (RAN): aspect of the beast (giving 2 claws, d4 each)
Level 3 (FIG): Powerattack, multiattack ( having 3 natural attacks)
Level 4 (FIG): two weapon fighting (short TWF)
Level 5 (FIG): doubleslice
Level 6 (FIG): improved two weapon fighting
Level 7-8 FIG (not important for core build, Utility stuff).

weapontraining ofcause on natural attacks (wich includes unarmed strikes)

Now problem ist, i may not use my arms to attack, since i wanna keep them free for to use my claws.
I did some Research and found out that you can TWF with unarmed strikes.
And unarmed strikes can be kicks. so i go:
"main Hand" kick with right leg,
"offhand" kick with left leg,
and then 2 claws and bite in fullattack.

Claws and Bite are at -2 due to multiattack feat, and Kicks are at -2 due to TWF since they are considered light weapons.
Would be a total of:
Kick +8/Kick +3/Kick +8/Kick +3/Claw +6/Claw +6/Bite +6. with -2 each.

All kicks come with full STR mod, and all natural attacks with 0.5STR mod.
All attacks Profit from a SINGLE Amulett of mighty fists since it applies on all my unarmed and natural attacks. so basicly i have 5 "weapons" with 7 attacks at Level 8 and i pay 1 enhancement. Sound pretty awesome.

Some argue, you cant TWF with unarmed strike, in that case replace the offhand with armor Spikes, and you are fine again having "main Hand" kick and "offhand" armor Spikes.
clarified by FAQ, its possible

Did i miss something here?

and now the master question:
Weapon Finesse applies on unarmed strikes and on natural attacks. amulet of mighty fists can take any enhancement wich would apply on unarmed strikes. so can i go Finesse and put agile on my Amulett, so everything i have scales with DEX? you could easily dump STR then or put it on 13(for power attack) wich offers you great AC and way better scaling into late. Only cost is that your offhand-kicks would stay at 0.5 DEX since doubleslice doesnt work for DEX on dmg (that was clarified somewhere i think).

sorry for Long post, but i just feel i missed something here, sounds too weird to work and outscales many many melee builds.

Scarab Sages

You can TWF with unarmed strikes.

Sczarni

Baumfluch wrote:
I just feel I missed something here, sounds too weird to work and outscales many many melee builds.

Tengu can do this at level 1. These sorts of builds are common enough.

Dealing with DR is your biggest challenge, since each hit gets damage reduced (until you can afford a high enough enhancement on your Amulet). And if you select Agile you'll never be able to overcome alignment-based DR.

Also, go with Piranha Strike instead of Power Attack.


thanks for the advise! i have 2 questions about it:

1: is Piranha strike pfs legal?
2: are the tengus claws at his Hands or at his feet? on the Picture i found [a="here"]http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tengu[/a], it looks like they are on the feet, wich would open the way to go two-handed-weapon plus 3 natural attacks.


Claw attacks I believe are generally on the forelimbs, the Talon natural weapon is generally used for hindlimbs.


Piranha Strike is legal, but if you got any secondary/offhand attacks in your full-attack, it only provides 50% damage bonus on ALL of the attacks (so at BAB +1 it would only add +1 dmg to all attacks)

In the bestiary FAQ http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9rdk it states that bipedal creatures always got the claw attacks with their hands


you can't kick with unarmed strikes with out being a monk as far as I know. a Monk armed strike called out that it can be made with any part of the body, while all other unarmed strike uses your hands, thus no claw combo.

Scarab Sages

KainPen wrote:
you can't kick with unarmed strikes with out being a monk as far as I know. a Monk armed strike called out that it can be made with any part of the body, while all other unarmed strike uses your hands, thus no claw combo.

This is false. Anyone can make an unarmed strike with Kicks or Headbutts.

From the Core Rulebook Combat Chapter on Pg. 182

Unarmed Attacks wrote:
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Sczarni

Piranha Strike is legal in PFS, provided you own the source for it.


Imbicatus wrote:
KainPen wrote:
you can't kick with unarmed strikes with out being a monk as far as I know. a Monk armed strike called out that it can be made with any part of the body, while all other unarmed strike uses your hands, thus no claw combo.

This is false. Anyone can make an unarmed strike with Kicks or Headbutts.

From the Core Rulebook Combat Chapter on Pg. 182

Unarmed Attacks wrote:
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Good I am going to totally use that cheese. This would give a dragons 6 more attacks in a round, + Claws, bite, wings, tail, and gore depending on dragon type.

Scarab Sages

KainPen wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
KainPen wrote:
you can't kick with unarmed strikes with out being a monk as far as I know. a Monk armed strike called out that it can be made with any part of the body, while all other unarmed strike uses your hands, thus no claw combo.

This is false. Anyone can make an unarmed strike with Kicks or Headbutts.

From the Core Rulebook Combat Chapter on Pg. 182

Unarmed Attacks wrote:
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Good I am going to totally use that cheese. This would give a dragons 6 more attacks in a round, + Claws, bite, wings, tail, and gore depending on dragon type.

And drop all those natural weapons to secondary for a -5 to hit and 1/2 str to damage in exchange for those low damage attacks. Not to mention wasting a feat for Improve Unarmed Strike that could have gone to something terrifying.


oh yeah you will do way more damage do the math, no need to even take the feat, with their reach you are not going to have to worry about Aoo, or non lethal will work just as well for putting down a foe. you can always eat them while unconscious. a -5 is nothing when you have over +30 to hit not to mention spell buff you can do to increase those numbers. most dragons have multi attack at some put so it reduce even further.

and the dragon, bite, gore and tail slap keep it 1.5 str damage because specific trump general. (tail slap is perfect example of this as it is already stated as secondary attack and still does 1.5) claws get reduce to .5 str, but that is ok.

you just got 6 more attacks at that do 2d6 maybe 3d6+ str mod and maybe even power attack. most damage in the games come from static numbers. the dice really don't matter, this is why the OP looking to get those 4 extra attacks.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

KainPen wrote:
the dragon, bite, gore and tail slap keep it 1.5 str damage because specific trump general.

For tail slap you may be right, but for the other primary attacks that say they deal 1.5, they won't deal 1.5 when turned into a secondary.

But since you are certain you are right, how about I just say "Expect Table Variance".


Dragon is ofcause a perfectly fine Option for scaling into high Levels. i see a giant strength of this build in the early gametime.
powerspikes at Level 3 and 6 are so high.
Level 3 you have two weapon fihhting, improved unarmed, aspect of the beast and multiattack.
so Level 3 equals:
Kick +1/Kick +1/Bite +1/Claw +1/Claw +1 (-2 for multiattack and twf already in).
5 attacks with +1 each in Level 3.
and Level 6 you find yourself with 7 attacks. thats huge and your only core item is an armor. armortraining plus high dex give you decent AC, and via racial trait you get endurance, so you can stay in your medium armor (breastplate and later mithral fullplate) 24/7. you Need 1 round to be 100% ready to fight in night. no picking up weapons or sth. stand up and fight. also your damage is pretty reliable. 7 attacks with a attackbonusgap of 5 and like 90% of you damage is static.

nevertheless, does anyone know another good race that has naturalattacks except for claws? like feet, tail, bite? i think that build is even better, with a two handed weapon plus natural attacks, but Need free Hands for it.

Scarab Sages

Baumfluch wrote:


nevertheless, does anyone know another good race that has naturalattacks except for claws? like feet, tail, bite? i think that build is even better, with a two handed weapon plus natural attacks, but Need free Hands for it.

The Wereboar Skinwalkers get two hoof attacks. Aasimar can get wing attacks, but it's a long feat chain to get them. Anyone can get a bite with a Ring of Rat Fangs for 5000 gold, or a one level dip into oracle for the hunger or wolfscarred face curse. You can gain a gore with a helm of the mammoth lord.

Grand Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:
Baumfluch wrote:


nevertheless, does anyone know another good race that has naturalattacks except for claws? like feet, tail, bite? i think that build is even better, with a two handed weapon plus natural attacks, but Need free Hands for it.
The Wereboar Skinwalkers get two hoof attacks. Aasimar can get wing attacks, but it's a long feat chain to get them. Anyone can get a bite with a Ring of Rat Fangs for 5000 gold, or a one level dip into oracle for the hunger or wolfscarred face curse. You can gain a gore with a helm of the mammoth lord.

They also get a gore attack. With the extra features feat, and being a class that grows claws, and taking the adopted->tusked trait, you can have 6 natural attacks at level one. I've got an abyssal bloodrager that did this (though no tusked trait so only 5 attacks at level 1). At level one, though, the hooves weren't that useful. At level 12 they're still not terribly useful and I had multiattack at one point but later retrained it.

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