Here's the best part - you can hand off the implements to your allies. That conjuration resonant power isn't fantastic for you, but if your party has a wizard he will thank you for it. Got a necromancer in the party? Boost their effectiveness even further with a necromancy implement. Are you a casting-focused Occultist and want transmutation spells? Hand off that implement to your friendly neighborhood Martial pc. Sure, you might need to pass a concentration check to cast spells if you don't have the implement on hand, but there's a feat that negates that for 1 implement as long as you're within 30', and normally you won't be giving more than 1 implement away anyways. Lots of these resonant powers actually get stronger if you hand them off to someone with a complimentary build, like giving a blaster sorcerer more damage or giving a rogue extra senses and perception.
Well that very much does give a great idea on how to make support work. I like that.
Up until now I've been thinking about them from a selfish standpoint. But, handing off your pumped up conjuration/evocation implement to the party full caster could be huge.
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Well I didn't do the full math but we're talking about a month+ minimum at the lower levels.I don't know about you but I haven't run across a single group that considers even two to three weeks acceptable.
Maybe my group is aberrant then, since that sounds acceptable.
Maybe my group is aberrant then, since that sounds acceptable.
Well I didn't do the full math but we're talking about a month+ minimum at the lower levels.I don't know about you but I haven't run across a single group that considers even two to three weeks acceptable.
Maybe.
In thinking about AP's it's doable in Kingmaker where the adventuring bits can be months between one another.
Not so easy in ones like Council of Thieves where a month can feel like a very very long time.
Sure, you might need to pass a concentration check to cast spells if you don't have the implement on hand, but there's a feat that negates that for 1 implement as long as you're within 30', and normally you won't be giving more than 1 implement away anyways. Lots of these resonant powers actually get stronger if you hand them off to someone with a complimentary build, like giving a blaster sorcerer more damage or giving a rogue extra senses and perception.
The class has a lot of subtle nuances that take time to understand. It's definitely one of the best new classes, and very well-designed at that.
There is also a conjuration focus power available at lvl 1 for people who want to hand off implements to get 10 min/level replacements for anything you know how to use.
I kind of like that the class can fill most roles, depending on how you divide up your focus. Today a perception/diplomacy rogue substitute with divination and enchantment, tomorrow evocation/conjuration to blast and heal, the next day an abjuration/transmutation front line fighter.
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I'm loving all the cool occultist analysis in this thread, guys. I always have high expectations when I see analysis from Tark, and this thread doesn't disappoint (and also from everyone else here; for instance I think that xobmaps' idea to take more foci than you can fill on resonance in order to swap out for the day has merit, especially in a pick-up group like PFS!). So far, you guys have figured out a lot of the tricks/ideas I did with the class. Keep it up, I'm excited to see some more ideas. :)
Just figured I should mention I'm reading this rather than just lurking around. On the messageboards we far too often don't post to praise a fun thread, perhaps because it seems like it's not adding as much as posting to criticize a thread we don't like does. But I think it does add. I hope this encourages more people to make encouraging posts in threads you enjoy!
One thing that feels like it has some good power but is getting overlooked with all the focus implement...focus...is it's bonus to UMD. Just thinking that at lvl 4, you could have: 3 for class skill, 4 for ranks, a bonus 2 for magic item skill and maybe another 2 off of enchantment resonance, that is +11 before factoring in charisma, traits, or feats. Even dumping CHA to 8 you could take 10 out of combat to use wands with this, and with a bit of build focus it would not be unreasonable to take 10 and get 25 to activate blindly at this point. Seems like that plus the auto-success object reading to figure out what any* magic item does should have some uses, and gives off the magic hacker vibe almost as well as the arcanist does.
*except higher level cursed items
I really love the Occultist, but every time I look at at everything I get analysis paralysis. This thread is helping with that.
"Analysis paralysis" was my first reaction to pretty much the whole book. A lot of the classes are less intuitive in their role than I was use to, and occultist in particular has SO many ways you can go with it. But darn it , it was an INT based caster with a lot of my favorite spells (wall of force, sending, fabricate, disintegrate, heal, create water, cure spells, and spell likes for remove disease and neutralize poison) so I kept coming back and looking at it again in more detail. I wholeheartedly agree, threads like this can be a huge help, but so far I have only really come across anything for this and kineticist (disclaimer: I haven't been looking very hard).
Oh no! Rogue Eidolon senpai is going to make me blush!
I may look into the medium at some point. Probably not the psychic since full casters that aren't divine rarely interest me.
On UMD: I think if you want a UMD focus than you definitely want to hit up the Enchantment resonant power. Coincidentally this allwos you to make a serviceable face for the group as well.
The trouble I have with UMD at the lower levels is even assuming you manage to get a high enough number to reliably hit those DC's you still have to get the items to make it worthwhile. Generally though I've found that as more and more spellcasting classes exist and as more and more groups tend to have more spellcasters than not that UMD loses its value as a "better than selling it" alternative.
I wonder, between focus shifting and what not are we looking at it the wrong way.
Maybe we should look at it as a much more balanced Factotum.
Just consider: Each day as you move your focus around so too does your general capability.
So, one day I have all my points in transmutation making me a combat beast.
Next day, I get my necrodancer on and throw them all into necromancy and enchantment (for those bonuses to dancing) to reenact thriller.
Perhaps the reason it feels like the "every class" is because it is.
Does that make sense?
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A battlehost lich who takes his sword phylactery as his panoply bond would be a rather cool villain.
On UMD: I think if you want a UMD focus than you definitely want to hit up the Enchantment resonant power. Coincidentally this allwos you to make a serviceable face for the group as well.
The trouble I have with UMD at the lower levels is even assuming you manage to get a high enough number to reliably hit those DC's you still have to get the items to make it worthwhile. Generally though I've found that as more and more spellcasting classes exist and as more and more groups tend to have more spellcasters than not that UMD loses its value as a "better than selling it" alternative.
I know I tend to under-value UMD, but I also tend to play in over sized parties (6-7 PCs), so it is rare that there isn't someone who can just use anything straight up, or do whatever the item does but better. hence curiosity on other people's take on the ability.
Perhaps the reason it feels like the "every class" is because it is.
Yeah, I would agree. You are probably not going to outdo a class that was built for a specific role, but occultist can make a good imitation of most.
It might be worth considering what implement spread would maximize versatility. Transmutation seems like a lock for martial combat, divination is probably the best for skill monkey, and if you get it's "Danger Sight" at level 3, it is probably the most versatile. Evocation is good for blasting when you expect swarms/mooks/incoporeal foes, not sure if necromancy, enchantment, or illusion are best for save-or-suck, I have never been great at evaluating that role, but I would be tempted to chose enchantment just for the resonant doubling as a boost to all face skills. Conjuration is required for backup-healer, although since you can't get the remove poison/disease ability until level 5, and it is the weakest resonant ability without sharing with teammates, it may be a good candidate for 4th implement.I may look into the medium at some point.
Yeah, both occultist and medium have the "every class" feel to me, but they do it very different ways. Once I get a better handle on both, it might be worth writing something up comparing them.
One thing to note is that you can take pragmatic activator to up your UMD by even more.
I think if you're going for save or suck though, it's definitely worth taking a look at the Necroccultist archetype. I'm playing one right now and I've found that even with the heavy focus on Intelligence, I can be quite good at melee thanks to transmutation stuff like Legacy Weapon for Bane, Enlarge Person and Lead blades. Granted all of these take a bit of setup but more subtle buffs like Lead Blades are good to set-up beforehand if you think a fight might be coming.
Even without a reach weapon, Enlarge Person and Combat Reflexes lets you get quite a few attacks of opportunity if you control the battlefield and make use of various area denial options like Wall of Force and Ghostly Horde. It takes a while for it to really start to shine but Necromantic Servant can be really helpful if you get caught with your pants down with no party support.
Overall I have to agree that the best tool the Occultist has at it's disposal is it's sheer versatility which seems to show even if you tend to go with a similar set-up each day.
One thing to note is that you can take pragmatic activator to up your UMD by even more.
I think if you're going for save or suck though, it's definitely worth taking a look at the Necroccultist archetype. I'm playing one right now and I've found that even with the heavy focus on Intelligence, I can be quite good at melee thanks to transmutation stuff like Legacy Weapon for Bane, Enlarge Person and Lead blades. Granted all of these take a bit of setup but more subtle buffs like Lead Blades are good to set-up beforehand if you think a fight might be coming.
Even without a reach weapon, Enlarge Person and Combat Reflexes lets you get quite a few attacks of opportunity if you control the battlefield and make use of various area denial options like Wall of Force and Ghostly Horde. It takes a while for it to really start to shine but Necromantic Servant can be really helpful if you get caught with your pants down with no party support.
Overall I have to agree that the best tool the Occultist has at it's disposal is it's sheer versatility which seems to show even if you tend to go with a similar set-up each day.
Glad to hear someone who has gotten to play one can confirm this stuff makes sense in real play. It is always a concern on paper and real play won't match.
I love the long running campaigns I am in, but darn it I haven't even gotten to use Advanced Class Guide yet! >_<
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This isn't exactly 100% related but the relic channeler inquisitor(who gets much of the same abilities as the occultist) is really cool(I'm playing one and am currently level 3) although the one bad part is that you have to look at every spell to see what school it's in. I feel like it is actually better than the Occultist for going gish based on its spell list and extra abilities, along with being a better skill monkey. I'm not 100% sure about later levels though.
Here's the best part - you can hand off the implements to your allies. That conjuration resonant power isn't fantastic for you, but if your party has a wizard he will thank you for it. Got a necromancer in the party? Boost their effectiveness even further with a necromancy implement. Are you a casting-focused Occultist and want transmutation spells? Hand off that implement to your friendly neighborhood Martial pc. Sure, you might need to pass a concentration check to cast spells if you don't have the implement on hand, but there's a feat that negates that for 1 implement as long as you're within 30', and normally you won't be giving more than 1 implement away anyways. Lots of these resonant powers actually get stronger if you hand them off to someone with a complimentary build, like giving a blaster sorcerer more damage or giving a rogue extra senses and perception.Well that very much does give a great idea on how to make support work. I like that.
Up until now I've been thinking about them from a selfish standpoint. But, handing off your pumped up conjuration/evocation implement to the party full caster could be huge.
The feat that LuniasM mentioned is called Strong Implement Link.
Another one to consider is Extend Resonant Power. It lets you share one particular resonant power with an ally while keeping your Implement. Each of you only gets the power at half your focus, so you would both have reduced enhancements from Legacy Weapon, for example. But there are times when being able to grant an ally a power like Ghost Touch or Holy can make a big difference.
Either of these feats would let you get some use out of the Conjuration Resonant Power by boosting the summoning duration of an ally.
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Alrighty so revising the transmutation build real fast taking the mental focus math into consideration.
1 Extra Mental Focus
3 Powerattack
5 Combat Reflexes
7 Furious Focus
9 Lunge
11 Extend Spell
13
15 Dazing Assault
17
19
Focus Powers
1 Sudden Speed
3 Size Alteration
5 Energy Shield
7 Danger Sight
9 Aegis
11 Globe of Negation
13 Object Seer
15 Unraveling
17 Telekinetic Mastery
19 Philospher's Touch
Implements
1 Transmutation
1 Abjuration
2 Divination
6 Abjuration
10 Transmutation
14 Transmutation
18 Divination
Traits:
Transmuter
Focus Allotment*
1st Level: Transmutation: 3pts. Abjuration:2pts.
2nd Level: Transmutation: 3pts. Abjuration: 2pts. Divination: 1pt.
6th Level: Transmutation: 6pts. Abjuration: 2pts. Divination: 3pts.
10th level: Transmutation: 6pts. Abjuration: 4pts. Divination: 4pts.
14th Level: Transmutation: 9pts. Abjuration: 6pts. Divination: 7pts.
18th Level: Transmutation: 12pts. Abjuration: 8pts. Divination: 7pts.
*Assuming the mental focus estimations above starting with 15int.
So, with the match of mental focus, yeah you really can't keep more than two or three maxed at a time.
I considered focus shifting but the issue with that is that you lose the resonant power AND one point of focus. So if you're relying on those resonant powers to save you on items or to give you a distinct advantage? Forget it.
the focus powers past 11 are pretty much a grab bag of whatever you want really I just picked some that looked alright.
So, feat wise I went with some Reach Cleric thinking. It's a model that works for a lot of non-magus 3/4 casters and here it's not super different.
There are 3 feat slots left I'm kind of at a loss to do anything with. So thoughts on that would be appreciated.
No it's not super versatile. But it's very simple and easy to do.
The build further above could still sort of work. But I would revise it similar to this one replacing divination and abjuration with evocation and necromancy. Still a potentially devastating build.
So right now it looks like the good build types are divided in two way.
The ones who grab two or three schools and specialize based on their choices.
And specialists who worry less about resonant powers and worry more about having fuel for focus powers. So lots of Implement focus feats and big general pools with one favored school always maxed, probably transmutation.
I really love the Occultist, but every time I look at at everything I get analysis paralysis. This thread is helping with that."Analysis paralysis" was my first reaction to pretty much the whole book. A lot of the classes are less intuitive in their role than I was use to, and occultist in particular has SO many ways you can go with it. But darn it , it was an INT based caster with a lot of my favorite spells (wall of force, sending, fabricate, disintegrate, heal, create water, cure spells, and spell likes for remove disease and neutralize poison) so I kept coming back and looking at it again in more detail. I wholeheartedly agree, threads like this can be a huge help, but so far I have only really come across anything for this and kineticist (disclaimer: I haven't been looking very hard).
That is pretty much my story too. I just couldn't ignore an INT based caster with 3/4 BAB, and such a versatile spell list. Plus I just love the flavor. I've always enjoyed the stories behind items of loot. Finding the ancient magical dagger of a once-feared goblin warrior or the necklace that a long-dead king had given to his daughter is something that was a big part of 1st edition. These are items that I might have put on display in my castle, rather than selling them. But the mechanical advantages of liquidating assets to purchase specific magic items is pretty strong in Pathfinder. I love the idea of a class that can get extra value from such items and also add value to them.
I wonder, between focus shifting and what not are we looking at it the wrong way.
Maybe we should look at it as a much more balanced Factotum.
Just consider: Each day as you move your focus around so too does your general capability.
So, one day I have all my points in transmutation making me a combat beast.
Next day, I get my necrodancer on and throw them all into necromancy and enchantment (for those bonuses to dancing) to reenact thriller.
Perhaps the reason it feels like the "every class" is because it is.
Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes sense. It's also a reason to pick up more schools rather than take the same ones multiple times. You won't have enough focus to fill all of your implements on any single day, but each day you have lots of options available to build your character for that day's challenges.
And the Effecient Focus feat lets you shift focus twice a day without tne usual penalty. It's great for quickly "redesigning" your Occultist on the fly.
One thing to note is that you can take pragmatic activator to up your UMD by even more.
I think if you're going for save or suck though, it's definitely worth taking a look at the Necroccultist archetype. I'm playing one right now and I've found that even with the heavy focus on Intelligence, I can be quite good at melee thanks to transmutation stuff like Legacy Weapon for Bane, Enlarge Person and Lead blades. Granted all of these take a bit of setup but more subtle buffs like Lead Blades are good to set-up beforehand if you think a fight might be coming.
Even without a reach weapon, Enlarge Person and Combat Reflexes lets you get quite a few attacks of opportunity if you control the battlefield and make use of various area denial options like Wall of Force and Ghostly Horde. It takes a while for it to really start to shine but Necromantic Servant can be really helpful if you get caught with your pants down with no party support.
Overall I have to agree that the best tool the Occultist has at it's disposal is it's sheer versatility which seems to show even if you tend to go with a similar set-up each day.
One reason that they are so versatile is that many of their focus powers are so similar to many of their spells. If you have to choose between two good spells for your spells known list, you might be able to find a focus power that does the job of one of those spells. Size Alteration and Enlarge Person, for example, are two options that give similar effects.
In this case it is worth examining the differences. Size Alteration costs you focus, but is only a standard action to cast. Enlarge Person will last minutes per level rather than rounds per level, but Size Alteration doesn't have any type restrictions. So if you ever wanted a Tiefling built around reach or tripping, this is a way to get that size increase that you always needed.
I'm not 100% sure you can split focus between two implements of the same school.
Now I know you can take the same school twice and are required to carry two implements from that school for each set of spells. However I don't know if you would benefit from two sets of bonuses if you split the focus.
If this could be confirmed that would, again, change things considerably.
That does change things quite a bit. Actually makes support even more interesting.
As for transmutationx2 being more valuable than trans/abjuration on a combat build?
Eh, no.
There's no doubt about the gold saving. But, it's very hard for me to argue against mind shield. The ability to flat out ignore a good amount of damage is huge. Particularly if you can find a source of DR.
And especially if you've got enough investment in it to do as an immediate action.
Then you have Aegis which lets you grab allllll sorts of fun armor stuff.
Then energy shield which will eat a lot of energy damage.
Finally you have globe of negation which will let you ignore a lot of nonsense at high levels.
It might just be a matter of personal taste in that case.
Besides I wasn't arguing about divination but transx2 which is a different set of things.
In terms of opportunity cost I think that largely, again, depends on taste and build. Danger sight is great but it only works once and eats next rounds swift action whereas that 24 hp will soak everything until it runs out.
The trick to Aegis, is I don't really consider it an In-combat buff. Rather I consider it a utility/before combat buff. A minute's not long, but even if you start combat with three rounds remaining that can go a long way.
Also, the opportunity cost of the entire class is why I advocate reach strategies since that can allow you a couple of rounds to buff while still maintaining a combat presence.
Let's talk archetypes for a bit. I've been avoiding them specifically because I wanted to focus on the base class for a bit.
And there is still a whole lot to cover on that. Only scratching the surface on the potential combos here.
Battle Host: Definitely combat focused. Having an unbreakable focus for all your stuff is great right up until you lose it. So probably not a good idea to make it a weapon. Is one of the few ways you can start with Full Plate right at level 1 and probably well worth it.
Other stuff is amazingly good replacements. Kind of gives me Arcane Duelist vibes the way it all works together. Can work for a lot of combat builds. Maybe not so much for support and utility builds.
Necroccultist I think it's notable in that ti doesn't limit you to only Necromancy so even someone just looking at investing into necromancy can find a use for it.
Ghostly horde doesn't feel very worth it lasting only one round. It would eat a ton of focus to be worthwhile. So it isn't.
Life drain also feels really weak for when you get it and how often you can use it.
Sha'ir Looks really neat hoenstly. Like necroccultist it expands your spellcasting. It also gives you a number of pets that could be really cool.
The issue is you get depowered quite a bit if you lose one or more of them. Still between that and the potential minions you can pop out with animate dead, necromantic servant, servitor, shadow beast and then you add in potential summons from schools or other great spells.
This is potentially a very strong archetype in the right hands.
Tome Eater: This one's a weird one. And you can only devour a scroll once per day. Regardless of the level. I'm wondering if some text is missing here or I'm misreading. If that's true than I don't think its worth it for the once per day focus regain.
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For anyone's benefit, when the various focus powers become available, since I kept getting annoyed having to scroll to the end of the entry to see when I could get things:
lvl 1
abjuration - aegis, loci sentry, planar ward
conjuration - conjure implements, mind steed
divination - future gaze, powerful connection, watchful eye
enchantment - inspired assult, mental discord, obey
evocation - light matrix, radiance, shape mastery
illusion - cloak image, color beam
necromancy - necromantic servant, soulbound puppet
transmutation - philosophers touch, size alteration, sudden speed
lvl 3
abjuration - energy sheild
conjuration - flesh mend, psycic fog
divination - danger sight
enchantment - mind slumber
illusion - unseen
necromancy - flesh rot, spirit shroud
lvl 5
abjuration - unraveling
conjuration - purge corruption
divination - mind's eye
enchantment - forced alliance
evocation - energy blast
illusion - mirage
necromancy - psycic curse
transmutation - quickness
lvl 7
conjuration - side step
divination - object seer
enchantment - binding pattern
evocation - energy ward
illusion - masquerade
necromancy - pain wave
lvl 9
evocation - wall of power
illusion - shadow beast
transmutation - telekinetic mastery
lvl 11
abjuration - globe of negation
on that note, i'm starting to think maybe for battle ocultist is better to go ranged, since with bane+conductive elemental and ranged feats you can put a lot of harmedit:
on a basic lvl, an elf with starting 11str/19dex/14con/16int/10wis/7chrand something like:
1:pbs
3:precise
5:rapid
7:deadly
9:manyshot
11:extra focuswith 14points in evocation focus, 9in transmutation, 2 in divination
as a basic equip a +1 holy longbow, a +4 int headband, a +2con belt, bracers of falcon's aim (~42k/108k wbl)could get something like by lvl12 with a basic build:
(hasted and legacy...
Looks alright, except those stats are incredibly painful to get through the early levels. I'd probably adjust down on the Int to get a bit of starting Str for damage.
Let's talk archetypes for a bit. I've been avoiding them specifically because I wanted to focus on the base class for a bit.
And there is still a whole lot to cover on that. Only scratching the surface on the potential combos here.
...
Sha'ir Looks really neat hoenstly. Like necroccultist it expands your spellcasting. It also gives you a number of pets that could be really cool.
I've posted statblocks for the Jin if anyone wants to save some time applying the template. I'm pretty sure I made the correct changes, but if anyone spots any errors please let me know.
The issue is you get depowered quite a bit if you lose one or more of them. Still between that and the potential minions you can pop out with animate dead, necromantic servant, servitor, shadow beast and then you add in potential summons from schools or other great spells.
Yes, lots of summoning options. All four elemental schools get access to Summon Monster II, IV, V, and VI but only for summoning elementals. Thematically I would have expected that each school would only allow you to summon elementals of that specific type, but I can't find anything to support that in the rules. That's good since it allows you to spread the various Summon Monster spells out among the Jin but still summon any type of elemental. If you had to memorize three versions of each Summon Monster spell, it would really eat up your spells known. The Conjuration resonant power will work nicely with these.
Edit: I just realized that the Size Alteration focus power will work with elementals. That could be really nice.
This is potentially a very strong archetype in the right hands.
With all of the summoning options, I think a reach build might work well with this archetype.
on that note, i'm starting to think maybe for battle ocultist is better to go ranged, since with bane+conductive elemental and ranged feats you can put a lot of harm
edit:
on a basic lvl, an elf with starting 11str/19dex/14con/16int/10wis/7chrand something like:
1:pbs
3:precise
5:rapid
7:deadly
9:manyshot
11:extra focuswith 14points in evocation focus, 9in transmutation, 2 in divination
as a basic equip a +1 holy longbow, a +4 int headband, a +2con belt, bracers of falcon's aim (~42k/108k wbl)could get something like by lvl12 with a basic build:
(hasted and legacy weapon for conductive and bane):
+20 1d8+12+10d6+1d8+19 19-20/x3
+20/+20/+15 1d8+12+4d6 19-20/x3
(dpr ~122 vs cr 12)if he went nova with conductive
or
+21 1d8+13+1d8+13 19-20/x3
+21/+21/+16 1d8+13 19-20/x3
(dpr ~113 vs cr12)if he just went with an extra +1 instead of conductive
and he could nuke for aoe for 8d6+7 ref dc: 21 for half
I've also been thinking about Battle Host archers. My build so far is a little different than yours, but interestingly I also went with Divination as my other Implement Group. (Transmutation was pretty much a given.)
Necroccultist I think it's notable in that ti doesn't limit you to only Necromancy so even someone just looking at investing into necromancy can find a use for it.Ghostly horde doesn't feel very worth it lasting only one round. It would eat a ton of focus to be worthwhile. So it isn't.
Life drain also feels really weak for when you get it and how often you can use it.
Personally I think the biggest hit here is that it is too inefficient to use it with conductive due to uses per day limits. It is however important to note that it draws from a separate pool of uses per day rather than mental focus.
Aside from that though I think the ability is actually pretty solid given what it replaces. While it's definitely something you should be using on the boss/tough creature of an encounter and not on a lackey, the ability to debuff attack rolls, saves and skill checks (as well as a minor reduction in Total and current HP) while simultaneously healing yourself with just a ranged touch can be invaluable to a debuff focused occultist. Especially if you have multiple uses of the ability per day.
A battlehost lich who takes his sword phylactery as his panoply bond would be a rather cool villain.
Battle host graveknight with panoply bond on its armor...
on that note, i'm starting to think maybe for battle ocultist is better to go ranged, since with bane+conductive elemental and ranged feats you can put a lot of harm
Well, that's true for just about any archer-type character due to action economy (ranged-focused characters get more full attacks).
One possible option for an occultist tank (the one I'm messing around with as a concept for Hell's Vengeance) is to take two levels in the hellknight PrC (can qualify after reaching +5 BAB at 7th level) to move at full speed in hellknight plate* (which should probably be your panoply bond choice at 1st level, anyway).
1st level implement school Transmutation (Size Alteration focus power)
2nd level implement school Conjuration (mainly for Servitor and Conjure Implement as the 3rd level focus power; although cure light wounds as a 1st level spell to act as a secondary healer is a nice benefit, too)
5th level focus power Quickness
7th level focus power Mind Over Gravity
9th level focus power (11th character level) Side Step
10th level implement school (12th character level) Divination (Third Eye is amazing and Sudden Insight is pretty good)
*- Or, with GM's approval, the equivalent "light" version for 14 Dex characters; basically o-yoroi (2,200 gp) instead of full plate.
lvl 7
conjuration - side step
divination - object seer
enchantment - binding pattern
evocation - energy ward
illusion - masquerade
necromancy - pain wave
Transmutation - Mind Over Gravity
So favored class bonuses for races hwo does that change things?
Dwarf: Awful. once every three levels gain a bonus to appraise on stone or metal objects. Really?
Elves: Gain 1/2 a mental focus every level. Guess who I think the best opccultists are going to be?
Gnomes: Illusion buffs. Still I think gnomes might make pretty sweet illusionists so maybe worth looking at as a niche build.
Half Elves: See dwarf above but add different stuff.
Half Orc: Makes Evocation powers and Flesh Rot really dangerous.
Halfling: Same as elf.
Human: Get an extra focus power every 6 levels. Not sold on this one being as good as elf or halfling. Focus seems a bit more valuable than the powers fueled by it.
Okay so I think we've covered raw melee combat enough for now. I'm not really sold on a ranged combat build (though does the evocation resonant power work on wands and scrolls?) but that can wait. For now I want to go a different direction.
Transmutation is hands down best for damage builds with divination and abjuration tied for close secondaries.
But what about a save or suck build?
Here's where the math changes slightly. Basically we bump all our assumptions up by +2 since starting with at least 18 Int would be standard for me.
After that we want a primary school for making people suck.
Enchantment and Necromancy come to mind immediately.
I would go with Necromancy primarily. Reason being is that the spells tend to be a much more versatile and stronger in more situations. Plus frightened is a much nastier thing to inflict than dazed. The enchantment power has an arguably better resonant power but I think Necromancy will end up being more focus hungry in the long run. Between flesh puppets to serve as personal touch spell deliverers and necromantic servants to run in and screen for us it seems a bit more bang for our buck.
The other thing we need is since this stuff is going to be mind affecting either way is a means to still be effective if we end up facing off against something we don't want to. I have to go to bed now but I should get a build up sometime tomorrow.
It's worth mentioning that half-elves and half-orcs can select the FCBs from their ancestral lines. That's an especially big boost for half-elves.
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It's worth mentioning that half-elves and half-orcs can select the FCBs from their ancestral lines. That's an especially big boost for half-elves.speaking of that. I'm trying to convince someone of that and I can't refind that rules bracket for that...
Happen to remember where to find that detail?
I have been trying to make a Touch spell themed character work (specifically Shocking grasp comboed with conductive and channel smite if possible)...and I am thinking this might be the way.
A blaster themed Occultist: With a conductive spiked gauntlet would I be able to flesh rot through the conductive spiked gauntlet when I make my Touch attack for Shocking grasp?
Kind of the crux of my build.
If that works out, then it opens up VMC: Cleric to get a domain to also work into Conductive touch attacks.
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One of the troubling aspects of the class for me has been optimizing spell selections. I'm fine saying that I don't want to pick up some schools (Illusion, Evocation, and Enchantment especially), but there's a challenging selection to be made between Necromancy, Conjuration, Transmutation, Divination, and Abjuration. What do people think about implement selection order and quantity?
My general impression so far (weighted by spells with a minor nod to some of the better implement powers):
Abjuration: Good spells at every level, but not necessarily the ones you want immediately. Probably one implement only, but 4th level's GIANT list will make you wish you had two just for it. You can take it reasonably at 6 or 10 without terribly many negative impacts.
Conjuration: At least one implement, probably can wait until level 10. 1st level spell selection is weak, 2nd level is mostly heald up by glitterdust, 3rd is kind of weak, but 4th, 5th, and 6th have some great choices available - Dim Door, Teleport, and Heal being my top choices here. The terrible part is that you don't even want to charge the implement with focus, really, because you give up spells to give someone else a couple extra rounds of Summon Monster.
Divination: There's something for everyone here, not least of which is the bonus to Perception from the implement itself. I'd probably wait until 6th level, though, when you'd be able to grab Arcane Sight, or if you're full up until then, 14 so you can get True Seeing.
Enchantment: I have a hard time wanting to do Enchantment on an Occultist with the Mesmerist and Psychic in the same book. Spells you want come later than you'd like, as well, with Hold Person not being available until character level 7. I think this is one of the weak implements and I would avoid it.
Evocation: There are 3 level 1 spells. Fireball is still coming in at 7th level. It's already a weaker school in PF on full casters, who get these things faster. I would avoid.
Illusion: It's not that I dislike Illusion, but I dislike some of the choices. First level is nothing special, 2nd level makes you choose between Blur and Invisibility. 3rd level is pretty much just Displacement or Major Image. 4th level is pretty much just Greater Invisibility. I think you sell yourself short by taking this implement. If you're running a more generalized stat array (i.e., you plan to do things besides spellcasting), you waste several levels worth of spells on things that have saves. I would avoid, personally, or take only one implement. If you're to take one implement, level 2 or 6 are good choices.
Necromancy: Level 1 is weak for spells, but a lot of other levels routinely have 2 spells you want to know the whole way through. 2nd has False Life and a number of other choices (Animate Lesser, included). 3rd has Animate and Bestow Curse. 4th has Death Ward, Possession, Fear, and Object Possession. 5th has Object Possession Greater (read: you're my golem now!). 6th has Harm, Possession Greater, and even Temporary Resurrection. I like a two implement setup here, likely choices being levels 1 and 2, or 1 and 6. Honestly, I think that Necromancy is one of the best areas for the Occultist to thrive in, and part of it is the implement itself.
Transmutation: As always, Transmutation carries a massive list of spells that I find valuable. I think this is another two implement setup for most builds, in part because it replaces the need for stat belts and also because you can take advantage of silly combos. Spell-wise, you've got Gravity Bow/Lead Blades, Enlarge/Reduce, and Magic Weapon at 1, Darkvision, Spider Climb, Perceive Cues, and Rope Trick at 2, Fly, Haste, and Keen Edge at 3, Air Walk and Planar Adaptation at 4, Communal Air Walk, Overland Flight, Fabricate, and Telekinesis at 5, and Disintegrate, Transformation, and Control Construct (you're better off with Object Possession Greater from Necro for this one, though) at 6. Transmutation really shines at lower levels, when you can use Legacy Weapon to outdamage the rest of the party via Bane selections, though this pushes you towards a magic weapon VERY quickly due to the time it takes to get it up and running. The downside here is that a build that focuses on Transmutation will likely have a deficiency in Mental Focus due to stat spread as the spell list and implement powers push you towards combat rather than casting. I like 1 and 6, or even 1 and 1 if you're heavily invested in the idea of Transmutation. If you do the latter, though, prepare to spend your first feat on Extra Mental Focus.
Any thoughts on this?
if going melee:
while conjuration has a VERY WEAK resonant power, it does have a good base power (for the flanks and whatnot) as well as a VERY NICE power in side step. For a class that lacks action economy boosters, getting in position asap, even directly into flank and etc is a major boon.
i would personally put a few points there, just in case in need to side step somewhere
i would probably go something like:
2xtransm
1xconj
1xabj
1xdiv
(not in that order^^)transmutation, while having a lot of good stuff, some of them you can get them from your powers (like enlarge, fly, etc), on the other hand, long duration buffs, party haste, etc are all so sweet
conj, you can't live without, heal, teleport, dd, etc
abj: again, you can't leave without, stoneskin, fom, circles, shield, and the list goes on
div, it has awesome powers, so you want to grab it for that at least, but also it's utility spells, detects, and etc are something that you need.
necro: i would delay it till 14/18, mainly for harm, but it's not like you wont have choices for the rest of the spell levels.
Depending on your flavor, I really think that the HP scaling skeleton from the Necromancy implement outperforms the servitor from Conjuration, particularly after level 5. That said, it does require selecting the implement + power vs. just the implement. The problem I have with summon servitor is that you're a full spell level back on the summon by 7th level and it only gets worse as you progress. You also get some of your action economy back with the skeleton since it's 10 min/lvl.
Speaking of the devil I'm working on such an occultist right now.
Spoiler alert: Half Elves are hotness.