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Hope this is in the right place as it is feedback for the Pathfinder Society developers. (This is a "bug report" of sorts.)
Summary:
Currently, according to the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide all Potions, Scrolls, and Wands are crafted by Clerics, Druids and Wizards. This causes problems for Psychics who buy scrolls of psychic spells.
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list.
The addition of the Psychic class poses three consistency problems:
- Psychics must buy their scrolls from a Wizard/Cleric/Druid if that spell is on one of those class's spell lists. Depending on the spell, they sometimes must make a Caster Level check due to Wiz/Clr/Dru gaining access to that spell at a higher minimum caster level than Psychic.
Example: CONDENSED ETHER - School transmutation; Level psychic 4, sorcerer/wizard 5, spiritualist 3
A psychic gains access to the above spell at CL 8. A wizard gains access to it at CL 9. This forces the psychic to make a caster level check at DC 10 resulting in a 5% chance of failure. And since the failure is on a '1' this also forces a mishap check.
Having a chance to fail to use a scroll containing a spell you can cast yourself is something not found anywhere else in PFS to my knowledge. - Psychic spells not also on the Wizard, Druid, or Cleric list have no default class to craft them, and so Psychics could buy scrolls made by Mesmerists, Mediums, Spiritualists, or Occultists at a lower spell level. For example, a psychic could buy Cognitive Block as a 3rd level scroll (as made by a mesmerist) even though it is normally a 4th level spell for them. This upsets balance because--unlike below in my "additional notes"--the player is paying a steeply discounted price for a spell balanced to a higher spell level.
- Psychics cannot buy many of their 6th level scrolls because they'd be 7th level spells as a crafted by wizards. Scrolls of spell level 7 and higher are not available before character level 12. These spells are balanced as 6th level spells and it would not upset balance to allow them to be available.
The Fix:
To fix this, Psychics could be added to the list of suppliers. They do not get access to any spells native to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. It only goes the other way, some psychic spells are added to other class' spell lists (usually at a higher spell level).
Additional notes:
The only weird thing would be that if Psychics provided Psychic spells by default, then a wizard could buy a 4th level psychic spell at level 8 and use that scroll, even if that spell were a level 5 spell on the wizard spell list. However, from an objective game balance standpoint, the wizard is expending gold to consume and use a one-time 4th level spell that was balanced as a 4th level spell. And, this is already something explicitly allowed in the rules.
The Guide itself cites an example, the spell Poison. Per the rules, a 5th level cleric could purchase and use a scroll of Poison even though in order to cast the spell with a spell slot they'd need to be 7th level.
If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of a 4th-level cleric spell.
In conclusion, the easiest way to correct these inconsistencies is to add Psychic to the "Potions, Scrolls, and Wands" section of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide. This corrects all problems without introducing any new inconsistencies.
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The summoner using a scroll of haste has the same problem.
EDIT: Also, let's keep in mind this has already been fixed and Haste is now a 3rd level spell for Unchained Summoners, which are the only summoners legal in PFS outside of those that got grandfathered in.
That's less of an issue because haste is balanced as a 3rd level spell, assumed to be minimum CL 5. Summoners get it a whole character level early. The Summoner spell list is largely drawn from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, meaning their magic is "native" to Sorcerers and Wizards.
Psychic spells are "native" to the psychic. When Sorcerers or Wizards get their spells it is they who are borrowing it from the Psychics usually at an increase in spell level.
To be a primary caster with 9 levels of spell progression who must roll to activate a scroll of a spell they're perfectly capable of casting is really crossing the line into absurdity.
Adding psychic fixes many problems and creates zero new ones. Adding summoner would create a host of problems, not the least of which is the "Summon Monster" line of spells. Psychic has no such game-breaking spell progression.
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I'm honestly confused. My understanding is per the guide if you want to buy a scroll you check first the cleric, druid, wizard lists. If the spell exists you buy it at the spell level. (Otherwise you go through other lists) If it's on your spell list you can cast it without emulating any spell features. Like a 4th level paladin who has first level spells, can buy a scroll of grace (maybe not the best example, but) and pay 150gp (2nd level cleric spell), but be able to use it. Is this not correct?
I can see how it would be a problem if you wanted to buy a spell that was on the Psychic only list either way though.
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If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap. A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.
The spell is on his list, and he has the requisite ability score, but the caster level of the scroll is higher, because it is a higher level Wizard spell.
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The rule is the way it is to avoid abuse. Psychics aren't the first or only casters affected by this.
Imagine a Paladin paying 25gp for scrolls of Lesser Restoration, or APG Summoners paying 150gp for scrolls of Haste.
The only way to control these sorts of shenanigans is the current wording.
There have been discussions about allowing (for example) only Paladins to purchase their 1st level scrolls, but no rule could cover all the corner case multiclassing combinations out there, except for the one we have now.
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The psychic classes do need to get added to the list of what order to determine costs from.
I imagine it'll almost certaintly be Psychic at the end of the 9 spell level casters.
The 6 level psychic casters at the end of that list and the 4 level psychic casters at the end of the 4th level list.
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Would adding Psychic to the list change the available level of any pre-OA spells? That is, do they get any Cleric/Druid/Wizard spells at earlier levels that were from the CRB, UM, or whatever else? If it does. then adding them to the list of primary creators would be problematic, for the same reasons as the Summoner Haste example. If it's just this book, I'd be less concerned.
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This came up at a table I played at last night. I was under the impression that all scrolls bought where checked on the wizard/cleric list first, and if they where on there bought at that level (so 1st level arcane scroll for magic missile). So the question is, if a psychic wants a magic missile scroll, available on the Wizard List, and it is arcane, is it usable without UMD for the psychic, who can not cast arcane magic, but uses psychic magic?
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This came up at a table I played at last night. I was under the impression that all scrolls bought where checked on the wizard/cleric list first, and if they where on there bought at that level (so 1st level arcane scroll for magic missile).
Lowest of wizard cleric druid.
If not on that list then lowest of whatever you can find.
So the question is, if a psychic wants a magic missile scroll, available on the Wizard List, and it is arcane, is it usable without UMD for the psychic, who can not cast arcane magic, but uses psychic magic?
In pathfinder society scrolls don't differentiate between arcane/divine/psycic. A scrolls a scroll (wands never care, but they're specified not to care in PFS anyway)
Psychic Scrolls
Normally the campaign does not distinguish between arcane and divine scrolls. With the addition of psychic scrolls, the organized play campaign now does not distinguish between arcane, divine, and psychic scrolls; they are effectively interchangeable.
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This came up at a table I played at last night. I was under the impression that all scrolls bought where checked on the wizard/cleric list first, and if they where on there bought at that level (so 1st level arcane scroll for magic missile).Lowest of wizard cleric druid.
If not on that list then lowest of whatever you can find.
So the question is, if a psychic wants a magic missile scroll, available on the Wizard List, and it is arcane, is it usable without UMD for the psychic, who can not cast arcane magic, but uses psychic magic?
In pathfinder society scrolls don't differentiate between arcane/divine/psycic. A scrolls a scroll (wands never care, but they're specified not to care in PFS anyway)
Psychic Scrolls
Normally the campaign does not distinguish between arcane and divine scrolls. With the addition of psychic scrolls, the organized play campaign now does not distinguish between arcane, divine, and psychic scrolls; they are effectively interchangeable.
Thank you! I was looking for a while for a link somewhere!
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I'm honestly confused. My understanding is per the guide if you want to buy a scroll you check first the cleric, druid, wizard lists. If the spell exists you buy it at the spell level. (Otherwise you go through other lists) If it's on your spell list you can cast it without emulating any spell features. Like a 4th level paladin who has first level spells, can buy a scroll of grace (maybe not the best example, but) and pay 150gp (2nd level cleric spell), but be able to use it. Is this not correct?
I can see how it would be a problem if you wanted to buy a spell that was on the Psychic only list either way though.
As outlined in my OP, if it is on the Pyshic and Wizard list the scroll you buy is at the Wizard's CL which in many cases is one higher than the psychics. This forces a CL check that has nothing to do with UMD.
UMD is used when the spell is not on your spell list and/or you don't have the requisite ability score. Neither of those would be a problem in a Psychic/Wizard spell situation.
Would adding Psychic to the list change the available level of any pre-OA spells? That is, do they get any Cleric/Druid/Wizard spells at earlier levels that were from the CRB, UM, or whatever else? If it does. then adding them to the list of primary creators would be problematic, for the same reasons as the Summoner Haste example. If it's just this book, I'd be less concerned.
I am pretty sure that psychics never get a native Wiz/Dru/Cleric spell at a caster level lower than the originating spell list, but I have not gone through every single spell. Wizards never get Psychic spells before a Psychic would. (Oops. Wizards get wiz spell progression and psychics get Sorcerer spell progression. So the rare psychic spell that Wizards and Psychics get at the same spell level, the Wizard would get it one CL sooner. In these cases nothing changes when we add Psychic to the list. So it is a non-issue.) If anyone has an example of a non-OA spell that Psychics get at a lower caster level than a Wizard/Druid/Cleric I'd be surprised.
The rule is the way it is to avoid abuse. Psychics aren't the first or only casters affected by this.
Imagine a Paladin paying 25gp for scrolls of Lesser Restoration, or APG Summoners paying 150gp for scrolls of Haste.
The only way to control these sorts of shenanigans is the current wording.
There have been discussions about allowing (for example) only Paladins to purchase their 1st level scrolls, but no rule could cover all the corner case multiclassing combinations out there, except for the one we have now.
APG Summoners are not legal save those that are grandfathered. This is the PFS messageboard. Outside of PFS this problem does not exist because the problem originates with the "Potions, Scrolls, and Wands" special rules outlined in Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide.
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I don't see this as a problem. You will only fail that CL check on a natural 1. So 5% of the time. And then unless you fail a DC 5 Wisdom check, the only harm is that the spell doesn't go off.
On the other hand, what you are asking for really is for the scroll to cost 800 gp instead of the 1125 gp it would cost for being scribed by a wizard.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I don't see this as being any different than a 4th level paladin having to make the same roll to use a scroll of lesser restoration. It's on his spell list as a 1st level spell which he could cast but he'd have to use a 2nd level scroll.
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I don't see this as being any different than a 4th level paladin having to make the same roll to use a scroll of lesser restoration. It's on his spell list as a 1st level spell which he could cast but he'd have to use a 2nd level scroll.
It's completely different.
Paladins are not full-progression primary casters. They're a hybrid class whose caster level is less than their class level.
Paladin is a martial class that happens to also get some spellcasting. Comparing a Paladin whose caster level is character level minus three to a full progression caster whose caster level is equal to their class level is a totally invalid comparison.
Psychics are the primary specialists in psychic magic. For a psychic to have to make a CL check on a scroll is totally absurd. For a Paladin it makes some sense because magic is not their primary focus.
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The scroll is, and activates as, an effect of a higher caster level than the psychic, so the rule for activating a scroll of higher caster level rightly applies. A wizard of the same class level would have an identical experience.
You've completely missed the point. The scroll should be available at the psychic's caster level because psychics are the primary psychic magic users. Arcane and Divine casters get to have their magic available on scrolls as crafted by classes who gain access to the vast majority of those spells at the lowest possible caster level.
Yes, as-is, the scrolls would activate 1 caster level higher than normal and cost significantly more. That's the problem.
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APG Summoners are not legal save those that are grandfathered. This is the PFS messageboard. Outside of PFS this problem does not exist because the problem originates with the "Potions, Scrolls, and Wands" special rules outlined in Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide.The rule is the way it is to avoid abuse. Psychics aren't the first or only casters affected by this.
Imagine a Paladin paying 25gp for scrolls of Lesser Restoration, or APG Summoners paying 150gp for scrolls of Haste.
The only way to control these sorts of shenanigans is the current wording.
There have been discussions about allowing (for example) only Paladins to purchase their 1st level scrolls, but no rule could cover all the corner case multiclassing combinations out there, except for the one we have now.
I laughed out loud when I read your response. You must be new here. You needn't mention that this is the PFS messageboard. I'm pretty sure we're all aware of that.
Please address the points I made. The example of the APG Summoner is still valid, as is the Paladin that you neglected to mention. And those are just two in a sea of examples. Bards, as another example, normally cast Speak with Animals as a 3rd level spell. Under the current rules, they may purchase scrolls of the 1st level Druid variety (saving themselves 500gp in the process). Sometimes it's a boon, and sometimes it's a bust. But the current wording we have now has worked for years, and I don't see why it needs to change with the introduction of these new classes. Nothing changed when the Advanced Class Guide was released last year, either.
So unless you have a concrete, simplified alternative, my guess is we're going to stick with the rules that are in place now.
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I don't know how this is a bug, more of a campaign rule that slightly inconvenience certain characters to regulate things and avoid abuse. Most 6 level casters have this problem as some point. Bards get heroism at level 4, wizard at 5. Hunters get resist energy at 1, clerics/druids at level 3. Inquisitors get sacred bond at level 4, clerics at level 5. Summoners had the haste thing, I'm not sure if new summoner gets early access spells or not.
If none of these were problems before, I don't see why it's a problem that the psychic has to make a caster level check for one level on certain spells.
EDIT - Unchained summoner gets Daze Monster at level 1, wizard at 3, so even they still run into this problem.
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That's the problem.The problem is that you are proposing that the scrolls be cheaper for psychics than for the wizards who would be scribing them.
Again missing the point. Each psychic spell's power is balanced at the spell level at which Psychic gets it. Wizards get it at a higher spell level because psychic spells should be harder for wizards to cast and should be more situational for those who do not specialize in it.
Boosting the spell level by one is an easy way to do this and how Pathfinder handles many spells available cross-archetype (Arcane/Divine/Psychic).
So, again, I'll repeat myself since so many people seem innoculated against the concept:
It is totally silly that the primary casters of psychic magic must buy their scrolls at a higher caster level and spell level. It is absurd that for many scrolls they'd need to make a caster level check. Psychic magic is the only type of magic not represented in the "Potions, Scrolls, and Wands" section of the Guide. No other primary caster has this problem except for Psychics. Whether by-design or not, this is a "bug" in the way PFS special rules interact with the general Pathfinder rules. It's not "balanced" and it's not "imbalanced" any more than the "Poison" spell is.
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I don't know how this is a bug, more of a campaign rule that slightly inconvenience certain characters to regulate things and avoid abuse. Most 6 level casters have this problem as some point. Bards get heroism at level 4, wizard at 5. Hunters get resist energy at 1, clerics/druids at level 3. Inquisitors get sacred bond at level 4, clerics at level 5. Summoners had the haste thing, I'm not sure if new summoner gets early access spells or not.
If none of these were problems before, I don't see why it's a problem that the psychic has to make a caster level check for one level on certain spells.
Go ahead and spell out how adding Psychic would lead to abuse. Go ahead and read the citation of the "Poison" spell again in the Guide.
Please, go ahead.
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Again missing the point.That's the problem.The problem is that you are proposing that the scrolls be cheaper for psychics than for the wizards who would be scribing them.
I am not missing the point.
A 5th-level spell scroll costs 1,125 gp. A 4th-level spell scroll costs 800 gp.
That is the reason we are having this discussion. It has nothing to do with the caster level check required to cast the spell (which will only fail 5% of the time), nor the mishap chance (which is 1 in 200 for the pregen psychic).
The point of the discussion is all about the cost. I have not missed that point.
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The point I was trying to make is that there needs to be a rule to prevent abuses, and they have one that works pretty well as is. I don't see the fact that they don't want to change it, especially so soon after Occult Adventures has been released, to be an obvious oversight. And the argument that one spell caster having to make a caster level check to cast a spell from a scroll for 1 level means that there's a mistake and the rules must be changed doesn't make sense, because there are many cases where casters have to make caster level checks to cast spells purchased on scrolls as is.
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You know what? I just read the whole thread one more time. Pirate Rob's post has changed my mind.
These scrolls probably should be priced based on the psychic's spell level, not the wizard's.
Yup. Also with Psychic not on the list, spells that are available at a much lower spell level for one of the slow, or mid caster progression classes like Occultist, technically the rules tell you to buy it from whoever gets it at the lowest spell level.
That's going to be weird and complicated because you'll have to calculate the cost manually each time versus just looking up the sorcerer costs on the table.
Also, there's quite a few psychic spells that are something like Psychic 7 / Mesmerist 5, which means going by the rules you could buy it as a 5th level scroll.
Adding Psychic would prevent powerful scrolls from being used at PFS tables while also allowing a few psychic 6th level spells that are inflated by one level for wizard to be used. Spells that are endemic to the Psychic spell list are balanced at the spell level for which psychic obtains then. Not adding psychic to the list keeps certain spells out of play that are not imbalanced, while allowing access to spell level 7+ scrolls because you can buy them from Mesmerists, Spiritualists, Occulists and so on.
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Generally, (conceptually) for the psychic I think that they probably should have scrolls. However, they create the inverse problem from the one that currently exists if they are added to the guide.
Now spells on the psychic list at lower level (assuming they are added to become the cleric/wizard/druid/psychic) list have the potential to be abused. That is to say condensed ether (or I'm sure other spells) goes from being a 1125gp scroll for everyone to an 800gp scroll. (Not huge in and of itself, but would generally be considered a game-balance issue)
If psychics get their own scroll pricing (which is probably a PDT decision not PFS) then a special rule has to be included to allow for their purchasing scrolls outside of the current rules that tell you to look at cleric/wizard/druid first otherwise you are in the same situation you are already in.
I think the issue is actually more complex than a binary yes/no situation, and unfortunately the simplest solution is to leave psychics on the outside (or maybe rule that they don't need to make the CL check in those situations, but still pay the extra gold)
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Generally, (conceptually) for the psychic I think that they probably should have scrolls. However, they create the inverse problem from the one that currently exists if they are added to the guide.
Now spells on the psychic list at lower level (assuming they are added to become the cleric/wizard/druid/psychic) list have the potential to be abused. That is to say condensed ether (or I'm sure other spells) goes from being a 1125gp scroll for everyone to an 800gp scroll. (Not huge in and of itself, but would generally be considered a game-balance issue)
If psychics get their own scroll pricing (which is probably a PDT decision not PFS) then a special rule has to be included to allow for their purchasing scrolls outside of the current rules that tell you to look at cleric/wizard/druid first otherwise you are in the same situation you are already in.
I think the issue is actually more complex than a binary yes/no situation, and unfortunately the simplest solution is to leave psychics on the outside (or maybe rule that they don't need to make the CL check in those situations, but still pay the extra gold)
You're like the 3rd person to assume that the spell level at which wizards get psychic spells is the spell level at which that spell is balanced. No. The spell level at which psychic gets psychic spells is the spell level to which those spells are balanced. A spell that is Psychic 4 / Wizard 5 is balanced as a 4th level spell. Wizards get it at 5 because wizards' primary focus is not psychic magic, it is arcane magic. Bumping the spell level for wizards is a way of making that spell more situational and increasing the opportunity cost of that spell for the wizard. It has nothing to do with how powerful the spell is in an objective sense.
And I'll also say for the third time, go read the rules and look at what happens with the Poison spell. The gold reduction is not only a non-issue, it is how it should be. Currently Psychics are forced to pay too much in addition to having to make CL checks.
Lastly, as I have pointed out, the potential for abuse is higher now because people can get 7th level spell scrolls by buying them off the non full-caster psychic class's spell lists.
Literally no caveats or complicated things need to be added to make adding Pyschic make sense. All of these arguments against adding psychic could be made against including Druid, but Druid is on the list, as it should be.
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Example: Unshakeable Zeal can be purchased as a 5th level bard scroll per current PFS rules.
This is a 7th level Psychic spell and is balanced as such. It's a potent spell and would be a huge boon to the party's martial character. It lasts 1 hour per level. Caster level for Bard is 13, for one of the occult classes, 16. Yeah you'd need to make CL checks but it's something you cast out of combat so that's not a problem.
Also being able to negate a fear or emotion effect at a critical moment without an action can easily avert a TPK. The way it is written you can even dismiss the effect after waiting to see if you made the save.
Adding Psychic to the list would keep spells like this out of PFS tables below level 12.
You fill the target with boundless enthusiasm and faith in its ultimate triumph. Whenever the target fails an attack roll, a save, a skill check, a concentration check, or an ability check, the target receives a +4 morale bonus on its next attempt at the failed check within 1 round (this includes attack rolls against the same foe, saving throws against the same ability
from the same foe, and so on). In addition, when the target would be affected by a fear or emotion effect, it can instead dismiss unshakable zeal without spending an action to negate the effect on itself.
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You're like the 3rd person to assume that the spell level at which wizards get psychic spells is the spell level at which that spell is balanced. No. The spell level at which psychic gets psychic spells is the spell level to which those spells are balanced. A spell that is Psychic 4 / Wizard 5 is balanced as a 4th level spell. Wizards get it at 5 because wizards' primary focus is not psychic magic, it is arcane magic. Bumping the spell level for wizards is a way of making that spell more situational and increasing the opportunity cost of that spell for the wizard. It has nothing to do with how powerful the spell is in an objective sense.
And I'll also say for the third time, go read the rules and look at what happens with the Poison spell. The gold reduction is not only a non-issue, it is how it should be. Currently Psychics are forced to pay too much in addition to having to make CL checks.
Lastly, as I have pointed out, the potential for abuse is higher now because people can get 7th level spell scrolls by buying them off the non full-caster psychic class's spell lists.
Literally no caveats or complicated things need to be added to make adding Pyschic make sense. All of these arguments against adding psychic could be made against including Druid, but Druid is on the list, as it should be.
I have no issue with the psychic getting it at 4th level. The game balance issue is if they are added to the primary casters list which would then allow everyone to buy it as a 4th level scroll not a 5th. Psychics by their creation at the least are rare in Golarion, rebalancing the game to there spell level in something the specialize in doesn't make sense. There are more Arcane casters out there who benefit from a price reduction in scrolls. Remember that whichever way a psychic gets added it does not just affect the psychic class. Yes, psychics would pay too much for condensed ether, as a number of spell casting class already do, and before you bring up that they are a full casting class I understand that already, it doesn't change the fact that it happens. Balance is about the whole not balancing for one class.
I would agree with finding a way for Psychics to not need a caster level check, but I see no way for them to pay less money (without also changing what everyone else pays), unless a completely new rule is made up add a new category for psychics specifically. (Again a PDT decision) If that happens, PFS may allow psychics and only psychics to buy those scrolls that way. But you're adding complications via 1 paizo rule 1 pfs rule to get there. The more likely rule is that they are added to the Cleric/Wizard/Druid list to create the Cleric/Wizard/Druid/Psychic list, which as I said creates a game balance issue (not for the psychic, but everyone else who can now buy cheaper psychic spells, since at this time in PFS play there is no distinction between arcane/divine/psychics scrolls and there isn't in general for wands, again psychics could be split out on their own, but it's adding complications)
The only potential for abuse of 7th level spells is if they are only on the 4 level progression psychic classes and not a full caster which by definition makes them not 7th level spell. Since you default to buying the full caster scrolls. Also, you'd have to be a Seeker to buy them under the current rules. (Since Mesmerist (or whichever non-full caster you choose) would not be added the cleric/wizard/druid list but rather Bard (for 6 level) or paladin ranger (for 4)).
The main difference IMO for druid is you've selected on of very few (only one I can think of off the top of my head) cases of them having the same spell that exists on other primary caster lists & of it being lower level than in either the cleric or wizard lists. This happens since the druid list pulls heavily from both of the other full caster lists, so most of the time it balances with either one or both of them. Psychic has less overlap with cleric, which gives it less to check against. It makes sense for the flavor and aspect of the class, but there seem to be more spells that come in at lower level on it's list.
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Example: Unshakeable Zeal can be purchased as a 5th level bard scroll per current PFS rules.
This is a 7th level Psychic spell and is balanced as such. It's a potent spell and would be a huge boon to the party's martial character. It lasts 1 hour per level. Caster level for Bard is 13, for one of the occult classes, 16. Yeah you'd need to make CL checks but it's something you cast out of combat so that's not a problem.
Also being able to negate a fear or emotion effect at a critical moment without an action can easily avert a TPK. The way it is written you can even dismiss the effect after waiting to see if you made the save.
Adding Psychic to the list would keep spells like this out of PFS tables below level 12.
You fill the target with boundless enthusiasm and faith in its ultimate triumph. Whenever the target fails an attack roll, a save, a skill check, a concentration check, or an ability check, the target receives a +4 morale bonus on its next attempt at the failed check within 1 round (this includes attack rolls against the same foe, saving throws against the same ability
from the same foe, and so on). In addition, when the target would be affected by a fear or emotion effect, it can instead dismiss unshakable zeal without spending an action to negate the effect on itself.
Ahh, I see your point with that now, I misunderstood that. My bad. (I think they should already be excluded but aren't by the rule specifying 7th level spells)
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Ahh, I see your point with that now, I misunderstood that. My bad. (I think they should already be excluded but aren't by the rule specifying 7th level spells)Example: Unshakeable Zeal can be purchased as a 5th level bard scroll per current PFS rules.
This is a 7th level Psychic spell and is balanced as such. It's a potent spell and would be a huge boon to the party's martial character. It lasts 1 hour per level. Caster level for Bard is 13, for one of the occult classes, 16. Yeah you'd need to make CL checks but it's something you cast out of combat so that's not a problem.
Also being able to negate a fear or emotion effect at a critical moment without an action can easily avert a TPK. The way it is written you can even dismiss the effect after waiting to see if you made the save.
Adding Psychic to the list would keep spells like this out of PFS tables below level 12.
You fill the target with boundless enthusiasm and faith in its ultimate triumph. Whenever the target fails an attack roll, a save, a skill check, a concentration check, or an ability check, the target receives a +4 morale bonus on its next attempt at the failed check within 1 round (this includes attack rolls against the same foe, saving throws against the same ability
from the same foe, and so on). In addition, when the target would be affected by a fear or emotion effect, it can instead dismiss unshakable zeal without spending an action to negate the effect on itself.
Exactly, and people buying spells as a 4th level scroll instead of 5th are saving some gold but they're also getting a spell whose DC and caster level are 1 lower. The spell is balanced as a 4th level spell so it should cost what a 4th level spell would.
Worrying about this price reduction doesn't really make sense because the current list--with very few exceptions--was made to make scrolls as cheap as possible since Clerics, Druids, and Wizards generally gain access to most spells at the lowest caster level among all classes. The addition of Psychic breaks this symmetry and forces all classes to buy scrolls that are in effect Heightened and at a higher caster level.
For spells not on the Wizard-etc spell list, players should be forced to buy them from Psychics because, in PFS, the balance implications are wonky otherwise.
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Exactly, and people buying spells as a 4th level scroll instead of 5th are saving some gold but they're also getting a spell whose DC and caster level are 1 lower. The spell is balanced as a 4th level spell so it should cost what a 4th level spell would.
Worrying about this price reduction doesn't really make sense because the current list--with very few exceptions--was made to make scrolls as cheap as possible since Clerics, Druids, and Wizards generally...
I see your point though I'm not sure I agree. The reduction in CL and DC may provide enough to re-balance it in and of itself. Traditionally, I think this would be a situation were the Paizo Development Team would need to make a ruling to add it to the list of full caster scroll creators to change the list, not the PFS staff who have already extended the existing lists to cover Psychics (if not ideally at least somewhat). Honestly, an FAQ is maybe the best option at the moment.
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I see your point though I'm not sure I agree. The reduction in CL and DC may provide enough to re-balance it in and of itself. Traditionally, I think this would be a situation were the Paizo Development Team would need to make a ruling to add it to the list of full caster scroll creators to change the list, not the PFS staff who have already extended the existing lists to cover Psychics (if not ideally at least somewhat). Honestly, an FAQ is maybe the best option at the moment.Exactly, and people buying spells as a 4th level scroll instead of 5th are saving some gold but they're also getting a spell whose DC and caster level are 1 lower. The spell is balanced as a 4th level spell so it should cost what a 4th level spell would.
Worrying about this price reduction doesn't really make sense because the current list--with very few exceptions--was made to make scrolls as cheap as possible since Clerics, Druids, and Wizards generally...
Where's this list of full caster scroll creators? I wasn't aware of any such thing in the general Pathfinder ruleset. I thought that's why the PFS designers created the list under "Potions, Scrolls, and Wands."
In any case, PFS is pretty free to modify things as needed to make a smooth gameplay experience at PFS tables AFAIK. Adding Psychic to the list for PFS would have no effect on Pathfinder outside of PFS.
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Where's this list of full caster scroll creators? I wasn't aware of any such thing in the general Pathfinder ruleset. I thought that's why the PFS designers created the list under "Potions, Scrolls, and Wands."
In any case, PFS is pretty free to modify things as needed to make a smooth gameplay experience at PFS tables AFAIK. Adding Psychic to the list for PFS would have no effect on Pathfinder outside of PFS.
I was being lazy instead of saying Cleric, Druid, and Wizard again.
PFS is free to make rules, but traditionally they don't make changes that far sweeping they leave those up to the PDT. Hence FAQs and erratas going through the PDT, whereas smaller rulings like accepting James Jacobs pricing on Lucien's Rapier, eating sapient creatures being evil, or banning items/archetypes are PFS rulings. There are occasional examples of bigger rulings, but not many. Generally anything game-balance related would be a FAQ/errata from PDT.
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Where's this list of full caster scroll creators? I wasn't aware of any such thing in the general Pathfinder ruleset. I thought that's why the PFS designers created the list under "Potions, Scrolls, and Wands."
In any case, PFS is pretty free to modify things as needed to make a smooth gameplay experience at PFS tables AFAIK. Adding Psychic to the list for PFS would have no effect on Pathfinder outside of PFS.
I was being lazy instead of saying Cleric, Druid, and Wizard again.
PFS is free to make rules, but traditionally they don't make changes that far sweeping they leave those up to the PDT. Hence FAQs and erratas going through the PDT, whereas smaller rulings like accepting James Jacobs pricing on Lucien's Rapier, eating sapient creatures being evil, or banning items/archetypes are PFS rulings. There are occasional examples of bigger rulings, but not many. Generally anything game-balance related would be a FAQ/errata from PDT.
Right but the changes I am talking about are PFS specific modifications that have zero impact on Pathfinder.
The rules I am quoting are from the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, which is the set of special rules and rules modifications only for use in official Pathfinder Society games. Nothing in this guide has any effect on Pathfinder home games or non-organized play.
Why would a modification to the guide need to go through PDT? It's updated with small changes every year when the new PFS Season comes out.
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I disagree, saying that Psychic is added to the C/W/D list is more far reaching (and is a balance issue) than what the current PFS ruling is that allows for psychics to use the scrolls already in existence. (The current ruling should probably have been added to the newest version of the guide though).