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Sinsitrad:
How do you know the spells are balanced for the Psychic's level, a whole new concept, rather than the long existing Arcane/Divine caster's level, a set of classes that has existed for something over 20 years?
Secondly, look at the Sorcerer. As they always get spell levels after the Wizard, they always have to make caster level checks for spells of higher level. It may be a null check, but they have to make a check.
3rd level Sorcerers have to make checks for Level 2 spells, 5th level Sorcerers for 3rd level spells, etc.
Part of your problem is that you have not been making a reasoned request, but making an emotional outburst, and it is generating a negative response because it is emotional, rather than reasoned. It sounds like crying, rather than a rational point of discussion.
Point:
Occult Adventures introduced a whole new set of spells and spell definitions, along with a 9 level caster class for these spells.
Point:
Due to older language in the Guide, the spells are priced oddly, at best, as the 9 level caster is not included in the list of available providers, and they probably should be.
Especially as, without them added in, you will wind up with Occult/Psychic spells being priced off of the 4 or 6 level caster charts, rather than the 9 level caster charts.
Request:
In order to clarify the situation, and bring it into alignment with previous rules for the OP campaign, it is requested that the 9 level Psychic caster class be added as the primary source for Psychic spells, and as an option, when a spell is on multiple 9 level caster lists, to be the source if lower for a shared spell.
This is in line with previous expectations, and should leave no more variation, overall, than things like the Poison spell being on multiple 9 level caster lists at different levels.
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Sinsitrad:
How do you know the spells are balanced for the Psychic's level, a whole new concept, rather than the long existing Arcane/Divine caster's level, a set of classes that has existed for something over 20 years?Secondly, look at the Sorcerer. As they always get spell levels after the Wizard, they always have to make caster level checks for spells of higher level. It may be a null check, but they have to make a check.
3rd level Sorcerers have to make checks for Level 2 spells, 5th level Sorcerers for 3rd level spells, etc.Part of your problem is that you have not been making a reasoned request, but making an emotional outburst, and it is generating a negative response because it is emotional, rather than reasoned. It sounds like crying, rather than a rational point of discussion.
Point:
Occult Adventures introduced a whole new set of spells and spell definitions, along with a 9 level caster class for these spells.Point:
Due to older language in the Guide, the spells are priced oddly, at best, as the 9 level caster is not included in the list of available providers, and they probably should be.
Especially as, without them added in, you will wind up with Occult/Psychic spells being priced off of the 4 or 6 level caster charts, rather than the 9 level caster charts.Request:
In order to clarify the situation, and bring it into alignment with previous rules for the OP campaign, it is requested that the 9 level Psychic caster class be added as the primary source for Psychic spells, and as an option, when a spell is on multiple 9 level caster lists, to be the source if lower for a shared spell.
This is in line with previous expectations, and should leave no more variation, overall, than things like the Poison spell being on multiple 9 level caster lists at different levels.
Sorcerers: No. Wrong. Let's look at a 3rd level spell. Wizards get 3rd level spells at CL 5. Sorcerers get them at CL 6. So when a sorcerer uses a wizard scroll of a spell they can cast, they're +1 CL over the wizard scroll. No check needed.
Wizards: Wizards are *not* the center of the universe. They specialize in arcane magic. Psychic magic is somewhat esoteric from a wizard's perspective. They are not as good at casting psychic spells and they use different components than Psychics, and so in many cases psychic spells are one spell level higher for them. Psychics are the primary psychic magic users, and they have full spell progression. The spell level at which psychics get a psychic spell is the native spell level of that spell. If you read through what the spells do you can see this pretty clearly. Further, consider that many psychic spells are NOT on the wizard spell list. This is because wizards are bad at psychic magic. For those spells shall we just arbitrarily add one spell level to the cost of the scrolls? No. That's absurd.
I didn't get negative until people brought up the same argument multiple times without bothering to read and consider what I've written. I'm growing intensely weary of this discussion and having to repeat myself to point out the flaws in the arguments people make over and over, like the sorcerer thing you mention which is just completely untrue. And the spell level argument about wizards which is patently absurd. But you didn't even think about it longer than it took to write the words and so now I have to dispel the myths yet again. Plenty of reasonable people would be as frustrated as I am with having to deconstruct an unending volley of malformed counterpoints and irrelevant side discussions.
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They should be added, at the end of the list. I do not care if you think psychics are "balanced" by their spell levels, but the new spells not on other lists need coverage. I agree with the Fox's original statement that making them primary sources for them is unbalancing for WBL. One example of this point is that spells that appear on the psychic's spell list at lower levels could be purchased by wizards as a cheaper option than their own scrolls.
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Quite frankly, I'd be even happier barring psychics from the potion, scroll and wand mechanics entirely. They've already got the advantage of needing none of the classic three components for spellcasting. Introducing psychic scrolls, or having psychics using scrolls kind of ruins the distinction they have from the arcane and divine classes.To be honest, psychic scrolls sounds goofy to me anyway. I wish they had made a new item with the same price and function but more in keeping with the psychic theme -- some kind of crystal perhaps.Crystals probably steps on Psionics too closely
The fact that they can be shut down from 30 feet away with a simple intimidate check and that their concentration checks are at a dc ten higher unless they take a move action first are pretty strong limiters, imo. Its clearly better than having verbal and somatic components, but not that much better.
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They should be added, at the end of the list. I do not care if you think psychics are "balanced" by their spell levels, but the new spells not on other lists need coverage. I agree with the Fox's original statement that making them primary sources for them is unbalancing for WBL. One example of this point is that spells that appear on the psychic's spell list at lower levels could be purchased by wizards as a cheaper option than their own scrolls.
Druids get poison at a lower level than Clerics. And Clerics can buy poison scrolls from druid at a lower level, and even use the scrolls without a check before they could even cast it themselves from a spell slot. Scrolls only check Caster Level, Ability Score, and Class's Spell List.
Poison is balanced as a 3rd level spell, but it's higher level for clerics because its effect is something more appropriate to the druid spell list, and something clerics have to work harder for.
Plane shift is balanced as a 5th level spell for clerics, but it's a 7th level spell for wizards. Yet, because of the rule, you buy the lower level option and no one bats an eye. It's a 5th level spell but takes a higher spell level for Wizards because Wizards are not as good at planar travel.
Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell for Clerics but a 4th level spell for wizards.
See where I am going? Wizards can already buy a lot of powerful scrolls at 1 or 2 spell levels below the spell level at which they normally get that spell, and the sky has not fallen. Wizards are not the best at everything. They're my favorite class, to be sure, but certain types of magic come more slowly to them if at all. THAT is why certain psychic spells are higher level for wizards. Not because the level at which Wizard gets a spell is the true and balanced spell level for that spell. When a Wizard gets a psychic spell at one spell level higher, the exact same thing is going on as when the Cleric gets Poison at one spell level higher.
Also, as I have stated before, adding Psychic actually bars a lot of higher level magic that's readily available right now. And, plenty of psychic spells that are not on the Wizard spell list are already available at their natural spell level and not breaking anything.
The argument that adding psychic to the list is imbalanced holds no water.
The argument that sorcerer has the same problem is demonstrably, mathematically false.
Comparing non-full casters like Summoner or Paladin to Psychic is a false equivalence. (They have those problems because of their less than 9th level spell progression and mathematical rounding. Or, because the design of a non-full caster class is such that granting them a particular spell very early represents their tight focus.)
Reasons to add Psychic:
- Keeps certain 7th level psychic spells out of play
- Ensures psychics never have to make CL checks to cast scrolls of spells they already could cast normally
- Lowers the CL and DC (i.e. overall effectiveness) of psychic/wizard spells found on scrolls and the gp cost accordingly
- Ensures players must buy scrolls from psychics and not mesmerists/occultists/et cetera unless that spell is *not* on the Psychic/Druid/Wizard/Cleric spell list.
- To the point above, allowing players to buy scrolls from the non-full casters can massively inflate the CL and players with a good UMD could cast some pretty powerful spells from scrolls. Adding psychic normalizes the Caster Level on most available scrolls.
EDIT: Also I have gone over much of the list. No spells which were on the Wizard/Druid/Cleric list prior to Occult Adventures are on the Psychic spell list at a lower spell level that I found, but I have not checked every single spell.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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*raise thread* So since I wrote up a psychic I became more interested in this.
Anyway, the only "classic" spell I know that has a lower psychic level than wizard is Telekinesis, which is level 4 for psychics but 5 for wizards.
Anyway, I think psychics should be added to the list. They set the tone for "real" spell level for psychic-magic only spells. And adding a new flavor of magic and an accompanying full caster, and then not featuring it in that list, is just weird and looks like an oversight.
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the only "classic" spell I know that has a lower psychic level than wizard is Telekinesis, which is level 4 for psychics but 5 for wizards.
I bet that if someone did the legwork and came up with a comprehensive list of which spells were affected then it would make a decision by Campaign Leadership that much easier to come about.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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the only "classic" spell I know that has a lower psychic level than wizard is Telekinesis, which is level 4 for psychics but 5 for wizards.I bet that if someone did the legwork and came up with a comprehensive list of which spells were affected then it would make a decision by Campaign Leadership that much easier to come about.
I've been looking for an up to date dataset of spells/levels, in CSV format for example, but the ones I found are all out of date.
If I have the dataset it's some fairly simple scripting/querying to get that information.
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I suppose that means the only thing requiring addition is a lack of difference in psychic scrolls and wands?
PFS doesn't care about Srolls linky. Again
Wands never care.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
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Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Asheville
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PFS doesn't care about Srolls linky. Again
Wands never care.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Thanks for the link; as I'm not terribly interested in the occult classes and wasn't running games at the time, I had not been following that thread. Also, thank you for not shouting at me. :-)