Everyone sleeps standing up here right? It is a powerful spell it's basically a save or die spell at the end of the day.
Look. We've been through this hundreds of times at the end of the day you have to have some common sense and not read into things so much.
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at the end of the day you have to have some common sense and not read into things so much.
Except my character's common sense is to cast Rope Trick and sleep in his bedroll in the Rope Trick.
My ex-wife's common sense is to sleep-walk around the kitchen trying to cook food - standing up, holding things.
Maybe common sense is not quite enough - if it were actually common we wouldn't have this debate over and over and over and over...
Alright, first off, sorry. I've been at the bar for hours.
Secondly...
For effects created by magic/supernatural effects/things that fail in antimagic-deadmagic areas:
Do EXACTLY what is written and no more. Magic doesn't have to make sense.
For effects created by drugs/knockouts/nonmagic ways:
Use real-world precedents. Getting knocked out rarely results in someone still standing or holding stuff. Drugging someone results in someone falling over and letting go of stuff.
Basically, magic is silly and overpowered, don't add more to it.
Non-magic is underpowered, give it benefit of the doubt.
Until they add a LOT more rules crunch, this is how I'm doing it.
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This is how I do the sleep spell. Those who fail their saves slump to the ground asleep, they may or may not keep hold of items in their hands (a simple 50/50).
Since this sleep is aginst your will you dont get to do 2-3 rounds of action just because you say your character would do those actions before going to sleep.
This is how I do the sleep spell. Those who fail their saves slump to the ground asleep, they may or may not keep hold of items in their hands (a simple 50/50).
Since this sleep is aginst your will you dont get to do 2-3 rounds of action just because you say your character would do those actions before going to sleep.
So, to be clear, you ALSO add effects to spells that they don't have?
I just want a yes/no here.
Prone?
Disarmed?
Two ADDITIONAL effects not listed by spell.
Do you, yes or no, apply BOTH of these, IN ADDITION TO BEING HELPLESS?
I'm thinking that this spell is the only one you need at low levels...
Magic Missile only does damage to one guy, this totally f**ks a group.
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This is how I do the sleep spell. Those who fail their saves slump to the ground asleep, they may or may not keep hold of items in their hands (a simple 50/50).
Since this sleep is aginst your will you dont get to do 2-3 rounds of action just because you say your character would do those actions before going to sleep.
So, to be clear, you ALSO add effects to spells that they don't have?
I just want a yes/no here.
Prone?
Disarmed?Two ADDITIONAL effects not listed by spell.
Do you, yes or no, apply BOTH of these, IN ADDITION TO BEING HELPLESS?
To be clear I do what makes sense to me, a person who goes to sleep will, more often then not, slump down, etc. Its not adding effects, its letting things happen as they should.
If you want the sleep spell to put creatures to sleep with them remaining upright, thats up to you but that doesnt make sense to me.
This is how I do the sleep spell. Those who fail their saves slump to the ground asleep, they may or may not keep hold of items in their hands (a simple 50/50).
Since this sleep is aginst your will you dont get to do 2-3 rounds of action just because you say your character would do those actions before going to sleep.
So, to be clear, you ALSO add effects to spells that they don't have?
I just want a yes/no here.
Prone?
Disarmed?Two ADDITIONAL effects not listed by spell.
Do you, yes or no, apply BOTH of these, IN ADDITION TO BEING HELPLESS?
To be clear I do what makes sense to me, a person who goes to sleep will, more often then not, slump down, etc. Its not adding effects, its letting things happen as they should.
If you want the sleep spell to put creatures to sleep with them remaining upright, thats up to you but that doesnt make sense to me.
I respect that you add two additional things to the published spell, but isn't really by the rules.
When a creature gets the dead condition does it slump to the ground or does it remain standing?
I'm pretty sure it stays where it is.
Standing if standing... prone if prone... and so on....
Sorry, did you see something that said otherwise, or actually matters?
When a creature gets the dead condition does it slump to the ground or does it remain standing?
The dead creature has the dying condition so counts as Unconscious.
When a creature gets the dead condition does it slump to the ground or does it remain standing?The dead creature has the dying condition so counts as Unconscious.
Well there we go, thank you.
Let's all make a concerted effort to make sure casters get all the power they deserve (and more with loose readings of the rules) while simultaneously interpreting all rules that martials get in the harshest possible way!
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I would even buy the whole "but I sleep walk" except one thing.
It says helpless. You can't make move actions while helpless. Therefore you can't sleep walk.
Well, lying down would be a move action too. And if you fell down then you'd take damage that could wake you up.
I would even buy the whole "but I sleep walk" except one thing.
It says helpless. You can't make move actions while helpless. Therefore you can't sleep walk.
Except to sleep-walk you need to sleep-stand (non-helpless sleepwalkers don't sleepwalk on their hands or on their bellies; they sleepwalk on their feet, standing and walking).
It IS entirely possible to be helpless and standing, and if you're already standing, then remaaining stnading doesn't even require a move action.
Well, lying down would be a move action too. And if you fell down then you'd take damage that could wake you up.I would even buy the whole "but I sleep walk" except one thing.
It says helpless. You can't make move actions while helpless. Therefore you can't sleep walk.
Dropping prone is not a move action.
and falling damage is per 10ft.Regardless, my players are sleeping while standing, their weapons still in hand. Because magic.
What about all the other spells and effects that could conceivably make you topple over, or cause "logical" side-effects? What makes Sleep so special that it needs to be singled out as the one spell where the real world needs to intrude and collide with the text of the spell?
The spell does what it says it does. Being under a "magical slumber" is apparently not exactly the same as being simply asleep. Leave it at that and save the discussion for things that really aren't clear in the rules.
What about all the other spells and effects that could conceivably make you topple over, or cause "logical" side-effects? What makes Sleep so special that it needs to be singled out as the one spell where the real world needs to intrude and collide with the text of the spell?
The spell does what it says it does. Being under a "magical slumber" is apparently not exactly the same as being simply asleep. Leave it at that and save the discussion for things that really aren't clear in the rules.
Exactly.
I'm only arguing the point for the actual spell (and similar effects, for example the slumber hex).
I don't need to have people tell me that when THEY go to sleep they tend to lie down and release what they are holding...
As I said earlier, magic does weird things. It seems weird to sleep standing up, holding weapons, but that is precisely what the Sleep spell does.
In fact, after close consideration, I would even argue that point, as it only renders you helpless (not unconscious)-but lets not split hairs.
So, in another attempt to get the original thread back on topic:
Non-magical sleep effects should do what everyone thinks they do (fall over, drop stuff).
Magical sleep effects should do exactly what is printed and no more, because magic doesn't HAVE to make sense.
What about all the other spells and effects that could conceivably make you topple over, or cause "logical" side-effects? What makes Sleep so special that it needs to be singled out as the one spell where the real world needs to intrude and collide with the text of the spell?
The spell does what it says it does. Being under a "magical slumber" is apparently not exactly the same as being simply asleep. Leave it at that and save the discussion for things that really aren't clear in the rules.
Exactly.
I'm only arguing the point for the actual spell (and similar effects, for example the slumber hex).
I don't need to have people tell me that when THEY go to sleep they tend to lie down and release what they are holding...
As I said earlier, magic does weird things. It seems weird to sleep standing up, holding weapons, but that is precisely what the Sleep spell does.
In fact, after close consideration, I would even argue that point, as it only renders you helpless (not unconscious)-but lets not split hairs.
So, in another attempt to get the original thread back on topic:
Non-magical sleep effects should do what everyone thinks they do (fall over, drop stuff).
Magical sleep effects should do exactly what is printed and no more, because magic doesn't HAVE to make sense.
Wouldn't it be nice to have this codified though.
Especially since a lot of GMs will disagree with you. Heck, even published Paizo scenarios disagree with you (there is an example in the other thread).
On the other hand, James Jacobs feels roughly the same as you do.
So why not FAQ and get an official answer so we never have to have this discussion again and everyone can be on the same page. If this isn't worthy of an FAQ, what is?
What about all the other spells and effects that could conceivably make you topple over, or cause "logical" side-effects? What makes Sleep so special that it needs to be singled out as the one spell where the real world needs to intrude and collide with the text of the spell?
The spell does what it says it does. Being under a "magical slumber" is apparently not exactly the same as being simply asleep. Leave it at that and save the discussion for things that really aren't clear in the rules.
Exactly.
I'm only arguing the point for the actual spell (and similar effects, for example the slumber hex).
I don't need to have people tell me that when THEY go to sleep they tend to lie down and release what they are holding...
As I said earlier, magic does weird things. It seems weird to sleep standing up, holding weapons, but that is precisely what the Sleep spell does.
In fact, after close consideration, I would even argue that point, as it only renders you helpless (not unconscious)-but lets not split hairs.
So, in another attempt to get the original thread back on topic:
Non-magical sleep effects should do what everyone thinks they do (fall over, drop stuff).
Magical sleep effects should do exactly what is printed and no more, because magic doesn't HAVE to make sense.
Wouldn't it be nice to have this codified though.
Especially since a lot of GMs will disagree with you. Heck, even published Paizo scenarios disagree with you (there is an example in the other thread).
On the other hand, James Jacobs feels roughly the same as you do.
So why not FAQ and get an official answer so we never have to have this discussion again and everyone can be on the same page. If this isn't worthy of an FAQ, what is?
But arguing is fun. :D
Just occurred to me that some people are fixating on the name of the spell rather than the rules governing it...
If I made a spell called "Alex's blinding, deafening, knocking you prone and paralyzing you forever fire ball" with stats like this:
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a ball of bat guano and sulfur)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Would you apply the additional effects listed in the name of the spell?
Or would you use the rules listed in the spell?
Would this argument even be happening if Sleep had instead been called "Standing Nap"?
But arguing is fun. :DWhat about all the other spells and effects that could conceivably make you topple over, or cause "logical" side-effects? What makes Sleep so special that it needs to be singled out as the one spell where the real world needs to intrude and collide with the text of the spell?
The spell does what it says it does. Being under a "magical slumber" is apparently not exactly the same as being simply asleep. Leave it at that and save the discussion for things that really aren't clear in the rules.
Exactly.
I'm only arguing the point for the actual spell (and similar effects, for example the slumber hex).
I don't need to have people tell me that when THEY go to sleep they tend to lie down and release what they are holding...
As I said earlier, magic does weird things. It seems weird to sleep standing up, holding weapons, but that is precisely what the Sleep spell does.
In fact, after close consideration, I would even argue that point, as it only renders you helpless (not unconscious)-but lets not split hairs.
So, in another attempt to get the original thread back on topic:
Non-magical sleep effects should do what everyone thinks they do (fall over, drop stuff).
Magical sleep effects should do exactly what is printed and no more, because magic doesn't HAVE to make sense.
Wouldn't it be nice to have this codified though.
Especially since a lot of GMs will disagree with you. Heck, even published Paizo scenarios disagree with you (there is an example in the other thread).
On the other hand, James Jacobs feels roughly the same as you do.
So why not FAQ and get an official answer so we never have to have this discussion again and everyone can be on the same page. If this isn't worthy of an FAQ, what is?
But it would be much better if our petty needless bickering is restricted to things that don't matter. Why not keep it to stuff like Goblin Baby threads. This actually causes issues in games.
Tell you what. Get this FAQ'd, and I might just make up a real doozy of a Paladin thread. Objective vs Subjective morality, Good vs Right, the difference between idealized Good intentions and acts based on ruthless cost/benefit analysis and how those two interact when a class that operates by the former is put into a situation where the latter is the only way a distinction between two or more options can be made. It will be glorious.
But it won't happen if we are arguing over if nap time implicitly includes lying down or not.
I did hit FAQ on this btw, I do want to see this clarified. It's funny how such a small thing can polarize the community so much.
I'm calling it Standing Nap from now on, btw, and looking forward to your Paladin thread.
But arguing is fun. :D
So, you discredit all of your previous points, by stating you argue, for the sake of arguing?
You realize this is not 4chan, right?
Interesting assumption.
Enjoying something does not discredit it, at least in my mind.
*looks at link* This isn't 4chan? The thread on Grappling a Succubus seems to indicate otherwise :P
So, you just tried to tell everyone here that I argue simply for the sake of arguing, which is not at all what I said.
I said I like it.
I also like cats.
You implied it. Or rather, I felt it was.
Your posts have an air of one poking the fire, just to see sparks.
It seems difficult to discover when you are serious, and when you are joking.
This can lead to someone taking everything, or nothing, you say, seriously.
I'll try to be a little less funny in the future.
I mean everything I say when I'm talking about stuff like rules and game material.
I feel VERY strongly that magic doesn't need to be treated with the permissiveness that it often is.
If the spell doesn't say it does something, it doesn't do it.
Silly or not, it's MAGIC. Magic IS silly.
Well, if they are not knocked prone, or drop anything, then pushing them down prone, and disarming them would still be quite easy.
Neither are "Slapping or wounding" the creature, so they would remain unconscious.
So, you can push them down, disarm them, then Coup de Grace them.
Agreed, 100% true.
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The issue is that spells (and many other parts of the game) are not written in the form "This spell applies the helpless condition to the affected creatures", nor can they be reduced to that. Pathfinder (along with all the prior editions of D&D on which it is based) relies heavily on text written in ordinary English, which must be interpreted by those playing the game. For example, the sleep spell text begins "A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures", and that text must be interpreted in order to apply the effects of the spell. Exactly what happens to creatures that have a magical slumber come upon them is not spelled out anywhere in the rules - it is open to the interpretation of those playing the game. The range of valid interpretations encompasses those creatures falling over and dropping things they're holding, as well as those creatures standing upright in some kind of dormant state. The interpretation that any given group of players will agree upon depends on various factors, which may or may not include "game balance", "realism" and simple preference. That's the way the game has always been played, and - I venture to suggest - the way it will always be played.
The issue is that spells (and many other parts of the game) are not written in the form "This spell applies the helpless condition to the affected creatures", nor can they be reduced to that. Pathfinder (along with all the prior editions of D&D on which it is based) relies heavily on text written in ordinary English, which must be interpreted by those playing the game. For example, the sleep spell text begins "A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures", and that text must be interpreted in order to apply the effects of the spell. Exactly what happens to creatures that have a magical slumber come upon them is not spelled out anywhere in the rules - it is open to the interpretation of those playing the game. The range of valid interpretations encompasses those creatures falling over and dropping things they're holding, as well as those creatures standing upright in some kind of dormant state. The interpretation that any given group of players will agree upon depends on various factors, which may or may not include "game balance", "realism" and simple preference. That's the way the game has always been played, and - I venture to suggest - the way it will always be played.
Indeed.
I tend to lean towards the harsher interpretation of things, in an attempt to avoid things like PunPun, x1200 duration summoned monsters, and extra effects added to spells.
Others do not feel this way.
I have hit the FAQ button on this, as I am very curious to know the official stance on this, both for the Sleep spell (and similar effects like a Witches Slumber hex) and non-magic sleep inducing things (poison, for example).
It seems to me that they should make Asleep a status, as it effects numerous things (Perception checks, for example).
I mentioned earlier something that I find amusing: Sleep (the spell) does not, as written, render the victim(s) unconscious. It merely renders them helpless, so if one uses it literally as written, you could argue that it doesn't affect your ability to make Perception checks.
The "fluff" does obviously heavily suggest the the target is rendered unconscious, but it doesn't actually list that condition as an effect, which it probably should.
So to anyone who wants to argue a point of some sort, I will say this:
I understand that my point of view may seem silly, and am willing to call it a house rule (if an official stance already exists that is opposite my own), but I do adjudicate Sleep effects (magical) as leaving the target standing and armed, unless they say otherwise.
As I have said before, magic can do silly things, so trying to use the 'common sense' argument is pointless. Unless you are actively casting spells in real life, I'm not going to consider your opinion to carry any weight, I'm just going to use what is written, as it is.
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It's a Sleep spell. It has a sort of 'common law' precedent from back when Invisibility was forever and Haste aged your friends. From back before the concept of 'conditions'.
It was the one shot the one-hp mage had, and it had a better-than-average chance of overpowering the available enemy targets and hitting the player characters, and yes, it made all affected unaware, prone, disarmed, blind, and helpless. And it would take a whole minute to wake up a friend, or kill an enemy.
A lot has changed. But I don't think the Conditions scaffold that was added to my Temple of Elemental Evil is supposed to obscure the stained glass of Saint Evilmancer Slumbering the White Knights.
I see how nowadays Sleep's peanut butter has been spread thin, all the way to at-will Hexes. And you'd perhaps like to water it down.
But it always bothers me when the feats of the great heroes of old (sometimes, of yesterday) become impossible, because the rules change.
If it were a 'Dire Daze' spell, you could do as you like. But it's Sleep. Would you really have the tightrope-walker remain balanced during it? The foe on the stairs? The one climbing the wall? The rope ladder? You're driving well past the median on the road to Interpretation, you've taken a left turn onto Wannanerf.
Don't Crane Wing my Sleep spell.
It's a Sleep spell. It has a sort of 'common law' precedent from back when Invisibility was forever and Haste aged your friends. From back before the concept of 'conditions'.
It was the one shot the one-hp mage had, and it had a better-than-average chance of overpowering the available enemy targets and hitting the player characters, and yes, it made all affected unaware, prone, disarmed, blind, and helpless. And it would take a whole minute to wake up a friend, or kill an enemy.
A lot has changed. But I don't think the Conditions scaffold that was added to my Temple of Elemental Evil is supposed to obscure the stained glass of Saint Evilmancer Slumbering the White Knights.
I see how nowadays Sleep's peanut butter has been spread thin, all the way to at-will Hexes. And you'd perhaps like to water it down.
But it always bothers me when the feats of the great heroes of old (sometimes, of yesterday) become impossible, because the rules change.
If it were a 'Dire Daze' spell, you could do as you like. But it's Sleep. Would you really have the tightrope-walker remain balanced during it? The foe on the stairs? The one climbing the wall? The rope ladder? You're driving well past the median on the road to Interpretation, you've taken a left turn onto Wannanerf.
Don't Crane Wing my Sleep spell.
I didn't write the spell, so I'm not trying to nerf it, I'm trying to be rules compliant.
The name of the spell doesn't determine the effects, the text does.
In any case, run it how you like, if making your opponents helpless isn't enough with a first level spell, why not add level drain to it as well? Heck, tack on a Glitterdust effect. Gestalt your spells!
Those poor casters, always being nerfed.
Using anecdotal evidence to support a claim that a spell does something it doesn't include in the text isn't gonna carry much weight with me, I can't speak for anyone else (nor do I presume to).
I'm not interpreting a darn thing here, I'm reading the spell and applying its effects to the targets. Seems about as straightforward as you can get.
When a creature gets the dead condition does it slump to the ground or does it remain standing?
Actually it is magically transported out of the realms by galactically large hands and put in a big box... i mean mass grave.
I'm not interpreting a darn thing here, I'm reading the spell and applying its effects to the targets.
You appeared to agree with my earlier post, in which the main point was this: the spell must be interpreted in order to be applied. You are most certainly interpreting it, just as Thornborn is - just as anyone is, when they try to use the spell in their game.
I'm not interpreting a darn thing here, I'm reading the spell and applying its effects to the targets.You appeared to agree with my earlier post, in which the main point was this: the spell must be interpreted in order to be applied. You are most certainly interpreting it, just as Thornborn is - just as anyone is, when they try to use the spell in their game.
*shrugs*
Obviously there is no one answer here. I used to treat it like the disarm/prone version that is common, I don't anymore.
I've said my opinion on this, so I will try to keep from replying to every single post on this one :)
I just feel very strongly that if the spell was meant to knock you over and force you to drop stuff, it would say so.
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... Again? Seriously? *sighs* I'll save some time for everyone. Here's my already established and apparently highly agreed with opinion.
Depends on the SLA. If the SLA has somatic components then it can't. Having a 0 dexterity does say you can't move.
Because this thread doesn't have nearly enough controversy, here's an interesting question for those who believe that Sleep does not cause targets to fall prone or drop items:
Do you believe Sleep prevents its targets from taking actions? For example, using spell-like abilities. If so, why?
It's not in the description of the Sleep spell. It's not in the description of the helpless condition. It's not even in the description of having a Dexterity of 0. And bound creatures, who are also helpless, can totally take actions.
Hence my earlier assertion that the name of the spell is misleading.
We have house-ruled it in our games to have the target helpless (as per the only condition listed in the spell) PLUS unaware of their surroundings and unable to act until woken up.
Strictly speaking, they don't even lose consciousness with this spell. It obviously needs a re-write.
While affected by this "magical slumber", we don't add additional effects other than what I listed above.
When the spell wears off, the targets are in whatever position they started in, holding what they had. Magic is wacky.
Don't even get me started on how Teleport can't work.