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Nefreet and I on the same page..I think that was one of the signs of the apocalypse. :)
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I actually dislike most electronic devices at the table.
This is a good point #4.5
Electronic devices can often distract from a session as well. Although that's not the direct fault of HeroLab, it's a consequence of using it.
I'll catch myself sometimes doing it on my phone. I go to look up a rule when it's not my turn, and by the time I'm up I've wandered over into the Rules Forum looking for an answer, which means I've noticed a thread I've commented in has new replies, which means I need to respond to those replies, which means...
...oh, crap, it's my turn. Gotta go!
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I usually keep rules quotes for PCs they apply to.
Sunder PC? Copy of the Sunder and Breaking Objects rules on hand.
Full caster? Copy of Concentration and a few other magic rules on hand.
Also, relevant FAQs on said aspects.
Right next to my character sheet. Quick, and easy to reference.
I always use Herolab, but I check my numbers, and print my sheet.
Once you have the hang of it, you can make proper adjustments, if something doesn't add up.
BBT, it is good that you do that, but some do not. It it those that are the problem.
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I'd like to say a few words in defense of Hero Lab.
I usually bring the printed sheets to PFS games. They are clean and easy to read. I *DO* understand all the bonuses and oddball features of my characters, but I am terrible at in game arithmetic. I suck at it. Hero Lab makes me faster because everything is nicely laid out on my sheet.
Like BBT, I double check numbers with a calculator at home. But I'm slow and would rather not do that sort of thing at the table.
My boyfriend will print off his sheet for the GM, but uses Hero Lab electronically on his iPad. He's usually the quickest player at the table, and never holds things up. Heck, he doesn't slow down gameplay even when playing his summoner.
You all are blaming the tool, not the tool user. My suspicion is that the same people who are slowing down gameplay with Herolab would be just as slow without it, and likely a lot more inaccurate. I've seen messy handwritten character sheets where the math was done wrong by humans, or where people gave themselves the wrong number of feats, or with other blatant errors.
There will always be players who don't know their own characters. Banning HL from your games is not the answer to this problem.
Hmm
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Hmm, I am NOT blaming the tool. I have gone out of the way to NOT blame the tool. Even 3 of 4 points made by Nefreet do not blame the tool.
What I am asking for is the company to make it crystal clear to the users of the tool that that the tool is subject to user error, not a substitute for the rules, and not in any way a Paizo product.
Somehow, some way, these things have become prevalent enough where I have had repeated arguments with multiple users.
One more time: all I want is a statement from Hero Lab stating, in black and white, these things. One I can point to whenever an argument about a rule pops up and people try to point to Hero Lab as a rules source.
Huh, I use HeroLab and find errors in other people's sheets not done in HeroLab. I do also check by hand at times.
It is not that your program has accuracy issues.It is that the people using it do not understand that the program can have user error, that they need to know the rules, and then waste LOTS of time arguing that their character is correct because "Herolab said so" when in fact it is not correct because of user error.
Hi, /what/
That is an issue with the person dude, not the program. Most of the issues I have seen posted are people complaining about some guy who uses hero lab, and not actually hero lab.
Also, hero lab is more accurate than people are.
But when a person is off its by 1s and 2s When hero lab is off its WAY off.
Axolotl, do those people argue that their sheet is 100% accurate because some program did it for them or do they admit they made an error?
Again, this is not a matter of program accuracy.
It is a matter of people arguing because people believe that the program is infallible and thus cannot have errors (even though user error is a thing). People are arguing that it is a rules source and "made by Paizo" or "backed by Paizo" and thus trumps the rulebooks (which are actually the rules source).
Guys, stop pretending we are attacking the program. WE ARE NOT ATTACKING THE PROGRAM.
We are frustrated with USERS who incorrectly use the program because there is no statement to the contrary telling them that it is not a rules source or that it is subject to user error.
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Guys, stop pretending we are attacking the program. WE ARE NOT ATTACKING THE PROGRAM.
I don't know the down command, you're going to have to push...
*laughs*
Hmm, I am NOT blaming the tool. I have gone out of the way to NOT blame the tool. Even 3 of 4 points made by Nefreet do not blame the tool.
What I am asking for is the company to make it crystal clear to the users of the tool that that the tool is subject to user error, not a substitute for the rules, and not in any way a Paizo product.
Somehow, some way, these things have become prevalent enough where I have had repeated arguments with multiple users.
One more time: all I want is a statement from Hero Lab stating, in black and white, these things. One I can point to whenever an argument about a rule pops up and people try to point to Hero Lab as a rules source.
Guns HeroLabs don't kill people hold up the game, people do.
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Guys, stop pretending we are attacking the program. WE ARE NOT ATTACKING THE PROGRAM.
I don't know the down command, you're going to have to push...
Darn. I could teach you the trick, but today? Pushing is straight out!
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To me, it has always been clear that Hero Lab is neither an official Paizo product nor an official rule source. When people ask me about how I got those pretty character sheets of mine, I tell them this, and mention the double cost price tag of owning something in both Hero Lab and Paizo book / PDF. Some people are still interested, others mention that they have a limited budget.
I'm really happy that Aaron G is in here, talking about his product and looking at Hero Lab errors.
Aaron, while you're in here, can you double-check the "Versatile Familiar" feature of Duettist Bards? My familiar is not getting the benefits of versatile performance to her skills. I'm having to pencil in the real numbers on the sheet and I hate doing that.)
Hmm
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I do find it hilarious when these discussions occur that people are quick to defend the accuracy of HeroLab while at the same time asking for bugs to be fixed =\
Also, to the people that print out the HeroLab character sheets and bring to the table: Thank you! I have no problem with the sheet itself. When it gets down to that level, it'll be as accurate as any handwritten sheet.
It's only the program itself I don't allow at my tables.
Does Paizo need to issue a disclaimer that their rules are inconsistent, or that the traits from People of The North are overpowered?
Do these HeroLab abusers really exist, or are they made of straw? :D You seem awfully grumpy about nothing.
I just started up an iconic in HL, and Paizo was wrong, not HL. Does Paizo need to issue a disclaimer about their iconics' stats?
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That's the thing, Paizo has admitted their Iconics are wrong. On multiple occasions (the ruling is that you run it as it's written).
HeroLab doesn't have such a disclaimer that we can point to when arguments arise. And they're not going to make one, because it would admit they have a faulty product, and it would hurt sales.
And, yes, it's enough of a problem that some GMs feel the need to ban HeroLab at their tables (I'm probably the poster child for it).
Errors happen regardless, but HeroLab adds more. I can't help if people make mistakes, but I can prevent HeroLab's.
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You seem awfully grumpy about nothing.
These complaints are not out of the blue. I have had legitimate problems with HeroLab at the table, and in my opinion it disrupts gameplay and causes a negative experience. It create tension and stress where none need be. I feel it is within my right to limit distracting influences, and HeroLab is one of the biggest.
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I do find it hilarious when these discussions occur that people are quick to defend the accuracy of HeroLab while at the same time asking for bugs to be fixed =\
I didn't say HeroLab was perfect. It's merely better than the alternative for me. HeroLab is more accurate than I am, and certainly more accurate than me generating a paper sheet by myself. When I find bugs, I report them because I do double check my characters.
But since you allow printed paper sheets at your tables, Nefreet, let's agree to disagree on this one. Both are views are so strongly held to make it likely that either of us would change our minds.
Axolotl, they are not made of straw. I have GM'd Hero Lab users who thought that Hero Lab was accurate until shown otherwise. Showing them otherwise is very very difficult.
There have been Hero Lab users that argued, on this very message board, that it was a Paizo product or that, at least, it was in some way connected with Paizo (backed by Paizo or the HL makers had a direct hotline to Paizo) and thus it was 100% accurate.
I, am not judging accuracy of the program. It seems a fairly accurate program.
I am however requesting that a disclaimer be publicly posted, that I can point to, that states that user errors are a thing, that Hero Lab is not a substitute for the legitimate Paizo rules sources and that it is not a Paizo product.
Yes, many of you know these things already. Congrats. But arguments with those that don't HAVE occurred.
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I just have a problem with electronic devices at the table in general.
Even as a player, when I have to explain the entire combat, because the guy next to me has been playing fruit ninja on his phone, it sorta pisses me off.
When I run games, I restrict electronic devices at the table. Somebody can look up something on their phone, but if they decide to ignore my rules, and start dicking around, I will ignore their character.
Party is three stories down into the dungeon. Where are you? Your player is dicking around upstairs in the corner with some marbles they found.
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Aaron "Lawful G" Beal,
Thank you for seeing things from my point of view. I understand that such a disclaimer would have to be carefully phrased.
After some thinking, I believe that the disclaimer probably doesn't need the 'user error' statement so long as it contains the 'not a substitute for the rulebooks' and the 'not a Paizo product' statements.
With those two statements it should be much easier to show people their user errors because the regularly occurring situation seems to be that when there is a user error then it almost always leads to the 'not a substitute for the rulebook' argument which then regularly leads to the 'not a Paizo product' argument.
Without the last two arguments it should be a relatively simple matter to ask them to check for user error or even to show them the user error.
You mentioned that you have already done something similar at conventions.
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Yeah, looks like there is a bug with that. I'll try and get it fixed before next release, thanks! Although, in future please submit any issues you find through our support system, if you please.
Edit:
Turned out to be simpler than I initially thought, so it is now definitely fixed for next release.
Aaron,
Thank you! And sorry about asking you in this thread first. I was going to submit a bug report, then saw you here. That was bad protocol on my part.
Still thank you for the upcoming fix!
Hmm
I don't understand why there needs to be a disclaimer stating "some people have confused this with actual Paizo products," but ok! I can't imagine someone going "but Neceros' Modified Spreadsheet says this is legit!" This actually speaks to HeroLab in a way, as everyone knows it's more accurate than anything else, with all due respect to other (free, ambitious) products.
When I think about the number of Paizo players who totally mess up their players--think of every beginner making an eidolon with the incorrect stats--and there is no disclaimer on Paizo products that goes "by the way, some players will eff up their stats, so please double check!"...well, anyhow, I see no need for a disclaimer from either company, but I suppose that's just me. I get that it's annoying for some GM's, but I'd rather deal with those players than place the blame back on HeroLab.
I've submitted bug reports to Wolf Lair, by the way. The shaman archetypes were messed up and you could stack all of them. Totally incorrect! They fixed 'em, though!
Axolotl, not to belabor the point here but, just because it is something you cannot imagine does not mean that it has not happened.
The program's accuracy is not the issue here. I acknowledge that Lone Wolf works very hard to make Hero Lab as up to date and accurate as possible. This is good.
The problem is what happens when certain users believe that the program cannot possibly allow them to make user errors. When shown the rulebook the argument then becomes variation of 'Hero Lab trumps the rulebook!'.
Gauss and I are on the same page here, but I'll add one thing to point #3.
My encounter with the Mystic Theurge was simply the last straw. It was not the only one. HeroLab is regularly a time killer for the simplest of calculations. People often use tablets with HeroLab when I'm sitting down to play a game, so I have regular experience with waiting for people to press buttons X and Y before (for example) rolling their attack (when the only modifiers that changed from the turn before was a casting of Bless).
Try this out yourself. Do a quick round of combat with equally competent players, but only have one person at the table using HeroLab. I'll bet you a bucket of fish that the person using HeroLab takes the longest on their turns.
I'll take that bet any day of the week. I play with a group of 7 people, all of which have over 30 years of gaming experience each. 3 of us use ipads, 3 use laptops and 1 uses paper.
in the amount of time it takes the 1 paper guy to roll his 4 attacks/round, do the math and give the GM his to hit totals, the other 6 can take their turns.
it gets even worse when the cleric and mage suddenly cast 3-4 buffs each.
I just have a problem with electronic devices at the table in general.
Even as a player, when I have to explain the entire combat, because the guy next to me has been playing fruit ninja on his phone, it sorta pisses me off.
When I run games, I restrict electronic devices at the table. Somebody can look up something on their phone, but if they decide to ignore my rules, and start dicking around, I will ignore their character.
Party is three stories down into the dungeon. Where are you? Your player is dicking around upstairs in the corner with some marbles they found.
now here I will agree. players to tend to go surf the web or play a game when they have their electronic device handy.
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Perhaps it would be helpful if you tried using the program, so that you were more aware of it's capabilities and how to "read" it quickly (for lack of a better term) when someone hands you their laptop. Protip, hovering over a bonus will give you a list of currently applied bonuses of each type, and notes on abilities whose bonuses might apply.I have tried using it before. I found the myriad of tabs and options infuriating to navigate and tracking down numbers to require going through all of them. Even free its not something I want to spend time learning how to use.
I find HL great for building characters. I can, and do read through the books I'm using. I try to understand exactly what's going on. That said, having HL double checking my math IMO is a good thing. And it's (usually) pretty good at pointing out when I make a mistake. But as with any program, I realize it has it's limitations.
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Gauss and I are on the same page here, but I'll add one thing to point #3.
My encounter with the Mystic Theurge was simply the last straw. It was not the only one. HeroLab is regularly a time killer for the simplest of calculations. People often use tablets with HeroLab when I'm sitting down to play a game, so I have regular experience with waiting for people to press buttons X and Y before (for example) rolling their attack (when the only modifiers that changed from the turn before was a casting of Bless).
Try this out yourself. Do a quick round of combat with equally competent players, but only have one person at the table using HeroLab. I'll bet you a bucket of fish that the person using HeroLab takes the longest on their turns.
What I do, and this speeds things up for me, is I create a set of Spell Adjustments and other such adjustments for things that are common occurrences. For example Bless, Shield, Mage Armor, strength/dex/con damage, and so forth.
I then check (or uncheck) any required modifiers such as "flanking" or "fighting defensively" as soon as it becomes needed. Which often means I'm doing so before my turn. I don't check on every modifier though. Flanking, I remember what that does. I don't need the program pointing it out.
On the other hand, if I'm playing a character with lots of complex interactions I can easily forget about such as a kineticist Hero Lab can definitely save me time. For example, having the bonuses from taking a lot of burn on my kineticist automatically applied can be a good thing. There's a lot of things I may not always remember going on when I take that 3rd or 5th or 8th point of burn. Similarly I may not always remember to add in the extra damage from Smite Evil or the extra to-hit from Bless. But because I have those modifiers checked in HL it's already factored into my modified to-hit and damage.
And if the GM has any questions, I can easily show him exactly where my bonuses are coming from.
Last night for example we had one guy who kept forgetting about a couple things adding to his attack bonus. And he kept having to add up his damage bonus. This didn't slow things down, but it was noticeable. Situations like that are why I like using HL at the table. Although I'm only recently able to do that.
I'm a big Lone Wolf Development fan, and I use Hero Lab for my own games (Gauss, you and I have discussed this before, I think), but it is absolutely not a substitute for knowing how the rules work.
I spend a fair amount of time out of game looking at characters built in HL and figuring out how various modifiers have been calculated, and so far the only times I've found it be wrong are things that were bugs, and patched in the next update (except the holy avenger thing, that's still extant, I believe).
So, personal experience says that I am wrong more often than HL. Most of the time it's an adjustment that's been left on by mistake (like charging, flanking, or haste), which is absolutely user error.
I completely get the frustration of players saying "HL says so, it must be true!", even though I've not experienced it myself. That would really get my goat. Because my response as a GM would be "okay, why?", and if they can't explain what all those untyped bonuses are, they won't get them at my table (I've done this to my own players before). I'll happily check after the game and figure it out, but during play it is the player's responsibility to know where their modifiers come from.
There are certainly various enhancements to HL that I'd love to see (such as automation of durations in the tactical console), but it is a fantastic tool. And some people need to be reminded that it's just a tool, not a substitute for the rules.
Guys, this is a necro thread. Herolab addressed this issue already by adding a disclaimer. I would like for it to have been more strongly worded but, at least I can point to #1 and tell people that it is not a substitute for the books.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So, personal experience says that I am wrong more often than HL.
Speaking as someone who has all his characters in HL, and who has written every game rule thing that didn't yet exist in HL (including making a HL Adjustment to correctly do Flurry of Blows that was in widespread use years before HL fixed their native version), I can say one thing for sure:
Herolab is wrong about a calculation or rule an order of magnitude less than players using paper.
I can count the number of times HL has been wrong about a character on one hand. I can't count the number of times I've found paper built characters wrong on every hand of every person in this necro'd thread.
It is actually kind frustrating too, when I see threads saying "character in HL are wrong", because I can't match that to my experience and I wonder if there is some kind of bias going on here?
Again, necro thread.
To summarize the points though:
1) HL generated characters are generally more accurate than human generated characters are if HL is used correctly.
2) Some people point to HL and say that it must be correct when it might not be due to human error (see point #1).
3) Some people point to HL and say that it trumps the book to justify point #2.
There is no bias against HL. There is bias against people claiming HL is infallible and trumps the books. This has now been (partly) resolved by the "making the most of Hero Lab" article.
We can now point to the article and tell people that HL does not trump the books, the article states that you need to read the rulebooks and understand your character.
As a result, when people are wrong they no longer have that point as a defense and the rest of their house of cards falls.