|
Doesn't conductive weapon only work once a round? I'm not even sure if it works on bows (does it transfers the damage to ammunition or do you gotta enchant the ammo?) and if not, rapid shot would only work on like conductive thrown weapons, which can get pricy.
Once a round is still full kinetic blast damage + weapon damage, and then all of the other attacks. And since bows bestow their enhancement bonuses to their ammo, I don't see why conductive weapons would work differently.
And yeah, getting a collection of conductive thrown weapons, even with a blinkback belt, would get pretty expensive.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suspect taking penalties for Rapid Shot, foregoing the Overflow bonuses to hit, and going against full AC with an energy blast costs you more DPR than you can regain with a few arrows. Also, what's the point of playing a Kineticist if you're going to use a weapon like the muggles...?
Guys, guys..
Air(Lightning) is perfect for something. Even just one level.
I'll return later. [/cackles madly.]
{. . .}
You don't even have to build yourself around it that much aside to get longbow prof (which can be done in a single trait with hunter's eye, making it even easier), since you have a normal full bow attack routine with rapid shot, multishot, and the other longbow feats.
{. . .}
With conductive being usable only 1/round, why not just use a crossbow (you are already proficient with it), and bag the machine gun feats (although you will want Rapid Reload)?
{. . .}
You don't even have to build yourself around it that much aside to get longbow prof (which can be done in a single trait with hunter's eye, making it even easier), since you have a normal full bow attack routine with rapid shot, multishot, and the other longbow feats.
{. . .}With conductive being usable only 1/round, why not just use a crossbow (you are already proficient with it), and bag the machine gun feats (although you will want Rapid Reload)?
Hmmm... perhaps a conductive crossbow wielding Kineticist with Vital Strike...
You've got one shot, better make it count.
|
|
{. . .}
You don't even have to build yourself around it that much aside to get longbow prof (which can be done in a single trait with hunter's eye, making it even easier), since you have a normal full bow attack routine with rapid shot, multishot, and the other longbow feats.
{. . .}With conductive being usable only 1/round, why not just use a crossbow (you are already proficient with it), and bag the machine gun feats (although you will want Rapid Reload)?
Yeah, I'd say you'd need rapid reload, which makes hunter's eye better since it's a trait instead of a feat, although you won't have the same crit range (I like 19/20 x2 over 20 x3 myself.) Still, with bracers of falcon's aim, you're getting a better crit rate for everything. Plus crossbows sadly don't get multishot, which is a nice boost. Also 'machine gun feats?'
I don't know; I like the idea of increasing damage output, but conductive just feels cheap to me. I don't want to play fighter archetype, or a gunslinger archetype, or a sorcerer; I want to play a character that can literally burn himself out and take everyone else around with him. I really just wish the base class could pump out reliable, decent damage all day, but Nova in a way that makes the Magus jealous.
|
|
I don't know; I like the idea of increasing damage output, but conductive just feels cheap to me. I don't want to play fighter archetype, or a gunslinger archetype, or a sorcerer; I want to play a character that can literally burn himself out and take everyone else around with him. I really just wish the base class could pump out reliable, decent damage all day, but Nova in a way that makes the Magus jealous.
Trust me, I don't like it either, it's sacrificing versatility and flavor for damage, and really if you wanted to do damage, there's better ways than being a kineticist to do it.
So I was thinking about the interaction between conductive and the kinetic blasts, and I'm wondering just what you can do with it.
Each time the kineticist uses one of
her kinetic blast wild talents, she can apply up to one associated
form infusion and up to one associated substance infusion
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of her lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal both greatsword damage and damage from one use of lay on hands. This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).
Basically, I'm wondering if the kinetecist is actually able to use infusions with the conducted blast, and if so, what the cost is.
The way I see it, there are a few possiblities.
1) "Using" and "expending a use of" are not the same, similar to the use of the bodyguard feat expending an attack of opportunity. Thus, you cannot apply any infusions to the blast and roll only the base blast's damage.
2) "expending a use" and "whenever you use" are similar enough that you can apply the infusions. However, because you expend two uses, you must pay twice the total burn cost.
3) As number two, except applying an infusion is as you're doing it, thus once you choose to you only need to pay the burn cost once.
I personally lean somewhere right between 1) and 2). I'm not sure which is correct.
|
So I was thinking about the interaction between conductive and the kinetic blasts, and I'm wondering just what you can do with it.
Each time the kineticist uses one of
her kinetic blast wild talents, she can apply up to one associated
form infusion and up to one associated substance infusionA conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of her lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal both greatsword damage and damage from one use of lay on hands. This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).Basically, I'm wondering if the kinetecist is actually able to use infusions with the conducted blast, and if so, what the cost is.
You quoted it yourself, but didn't highlight the relevant part.
(If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.)
You quoted it yourself, but didn't highlight the relevant part.
(If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.)
That's actually just reminder text telling you what you would already know if it wasn't there. Expending two uses out of infinity uses means you can do it an infinite amount of times.
My question is more focusing on whether you can apply infusions to your kinetic blast when channeled through a conductive weapon.
As previously mentioned, I now lean more towards option 1 of the ones I listed.
This would, in my opinion, actually make a conductive build far inferior to a regular kineticist, since you're giving up half your class without getting anything in return like the elemental annihilator does.
Yeah, I'd say you'd need rapid reload, which makes hunter's eye better since it's a trait instead of a feat, although you won't have the same crit range (I like 19/20 x2 over 20 x3 myself.) Still, with bracers of falcon's aim, you're getting a better crit rate for everything. Plus crossbows sadly don't get multishot, which is a nice boost. Also 'machine gun feats?'With conductive being usable only 1/round, why not just use a crossbow (you are already proficient with it), and bag the machine gun feats (although you will want Rapid Reload)?
Normally 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 give the same DPR boost (unless you are having a super hard time hitting a target, in which case 20/x3 pulls ahead), although I'm not sure about how these interact with an imbued Kinetic Blast.
By machine gun feats I mean Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and the other high firing rate feat that I can't remember the name of, which don't help you as much as if you depended entirely upon weapon damage, because you can use Conductive only once per round anyway.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Guys, guys..
Air(Lightning) is perfect for something. Even just one level.
I'll return later. [/cackles madly.]
Here's a terrifying NPC.
Greensward Shambling Mound, Kineticist 1, CR 8
CG Large plant
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-Light vision; Perception +11
AC 19, touch 9, flat-footed 19 (+10 natural, –1 size)
hp 75 (9d8+27+1d8+3+1)
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +5
Defensive Abilities plant traits; Immune electricity; Resist fire 10
Speed 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee 2 slams +11 (2d6+5 plus grab)
Range electric blast +5 ranged touch attack (1d6+1 electricity), 30ft
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (2d6+7)
Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +6; CMB +12 (+16 grapple); CMD 22
Feats Cleave, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)
Skills Perception +11, Stealth +11 (+19 in swamps or forest), Swim +13; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth (+12 in swamps or forests), +4 Perception
Languages Common, Sylvan (cannot speak)
SQ[b] electric fortitude
[b]SPECIAL ABILITIES[b]
[b]Electric Fortitude (Ex)
Shambling mounds take no damage from electricity. Instead, any electricity attack used against a shambling mound temporarily increases its Constitution score by 1d4 points. The shambling mound loses these temporary points at the rate of 1 per hour.
Elemental Focus (SU)
As the first level Kineticist class feature. Agesthran's focus is air, and he has the basic aerokinesis talent.
Burn (Ex)
As the first level Kineticist class feature.
Kinetic Blast (Sp)
As the first level Kineticist class feature. Agesthran has the Electric Blast talent.
Gather Power (Su)
As the first level Kineticist class feature.
Infusion (Su)
As the first level Kineticist class feature. Agesthran has the Thundering Infusion talent.
Agesthran was once a powerful sylph Druid who, despite his vast knowledge of the sky and its creatures, knew very little of plants and the earth he so often flew over. When called upon to slay a murderous plant creature -a shambling mound- he was woeful unprepared for its ability to absorb the lightning he struck it with it, and soon was eaten.
Sill, all was not lost. Agesthran lashed out from inside the creature and managed to fuse his soul with the shambling mound and take control of it after he finally died. Now he walks a stretch of forest trying to find a way to return to his original form. Perhaps, he believes, if he protects the territory he's claimed, the dryads will help. Until then though, he must wait and watch the sky he could no longer dwell in...
Now, here is an interesting question:
Let us say you have a +1 Conductive Longbow. You then shoot the Longbow with Vital Strike. Does the damage from the Kinetic Blast gets multiplied? If not, if you use it with the Elemental Annihilator's Devastating Infusion, would it work?
I tend to say no. It's sort of like how criticals don't multiply sneak attack, etc.
Guys, guys..
Air(Lightning) is perfect for something. Even just one level.
I'll return later. [/cackles madly.]
Here's a terrifying NPC.
** spoiler omitted **...
Hahahaha! That's FANTASTIC!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I tend to say no. It's sort of like how criticals don't multiply sneak attack, etc.Now, here is an interesting question:
Let us say you have a +1 Conductive Longbow. You then shoot the Longbow with Vital Strike. Does the damage from the Kinetic Blast gets multiplied? If not, if you use it with the Elemental Annihilator's Devastating Infusion, would it work?
Definitely no. Vital Strike only multiplies weapon damage. This means 1d8 in this case. The blast is a rider effect that happens to discharge when the weapon hits.
If you want to use Vital Strike, play Iron Gods and get your hands on a chainsaw. :)
That depends, i'm pretty sure electric fortitude can't stack with himself.
Anyway, i'm musling a draft for a kinny tank, so i'm open to suggestion. The rough idea for now is small size, dipping Warpriest for heavy armor and unarmed strike, getting water shroud maxed and using the free hand for the new crane style. Energy Kinetic whip means I don't have to bother with hit issues and can pump cos skyhigh. Any thoughts?
Hahahaha! That's FANTASTIC!Guys, guys..
Air(Lightning) is perfect for something. Even just one level.
I'll return later. [/cackles madly.]
Here's a terrifying NPC.
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks. Those poor, poor poachers and loggers...
|
|
Thinking about it, I don't think I'd allow kinetic blade to work for making conductive melee weapons (it modifies the base ability, which is originally a ranged attack), but adding substance infusions seems a-ok, with precedent before being alchemist bombs (however limited) being able to use different bomb types when they use conductive.
What this would mean is that a conductive bow kineticist will probably outdamage a regular kineticist, although the accuracy issue and elemental overflow being moot is annoying. Fire's Fury should still work as a damage boost though, so the damage from the weapon is still important.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Guys, guys..
Air(Lightning) is perfect for something. Even just one level.
I'll return later. [/cackles madly.]
Here's a terrifying NPC.
** spoiler omitted **...
A round is 6 seconds. 10 rounds in 1 minute. 60 minutes in 1 hour. 600 rounds in 1 hour. This means that Agesthran can boost his con by as little as 600 points, or as much as 2,400 points in 1 hour.
Thinking about it, I don't think I'd allow kinetic blade to work for making conductive melee weapons (it modifies the base ability, which is originally a ranged attack), but adding substance infusions seems a-ok, with precedent before being alchemist bombs (however limited) being able to use different bomb types when they use conductive.
What this would mean is that a conductive bow kineticist will probably outdamage a regular kineticist, although the accuracy issue and elemental overflow being moot is annoying. Fire's Fury should still work as a damage boost though, so the damage from the weapon is still important.
It's worth noting that a kineticist has to spend twice as much burn to use a conductive weapon, because you use two 'charges' of your ability. So the kineticist using something like the Pushing Infusion, would have to take two burn (which can be reduced with Infusion Spec. and the like). This is extremely important if one would like to use a composite, as that requires 4 burn.
All-in-all, a conductive weapon kineticist is more starved for burn than a regular kineticist. Excluding Shambling Mound Kineticists under the effects of a polymorph spell into a humanoid form, of course.
That is conjecture, and possibly what may be pushed in errata, but as of now conductive's wording does not, as written, say that.
It's a logical conclusion to make (Uses up 2 uses on abilities with uses, therefor would cost twice as much burn), but not a RAW ruling.
Not really. In order to activate a composite blast, you need to spend 2 burn. Using '2 uses' means you need to spend the burn twice, hence, 4 burn. It's not really conjecture. If you have to use the ability twice, you have to pay for it twice.
|
|
Not really. In order to activate a composite blast, you need to spend 2 burn. Using '2 uses' means you need to spend the burn twice, hence, 4 burn. It's not really conjecture. If you have to use the ability twice, you have to pay for it twice.That is conjecture, and possibly what may be pushed in errata, but as of now conductive's wording does not, as written, say that.
It's a logical conclusion to make (Uses up 2 uses on abilities with uses, therefor would cost twice as much burn), but not a RAW ruling.
Is there any other abilities that require one to 'pay' for them so to speak? I'd side with Tels here, but if we have any precedent, I'd like to see that first.
That's totally conjecture.
That's totally conjecture.
I don't get how? What information am I missing?
In order to use a composite blast, you must use 2 points of burn. Composite blasts, or infusions, are not 'at will'. The kinetic blast is at will, but infusions and the commposite blasts are not.
In order to use composite blasts, or infusions as a part of your conductive weapon, you need to accept the burn cost. Since conductive weapon requires two uses of an ability to work through the weapon, it requires two instances of burn to work as well.
I have all of the information here. I'm not missing anything.
When you use the conductive weapon property with any other ability, it drains two uses of it. Why would a kinetic blast be the sole exception? Why would kinetic blast allow you to pay the cost for only a single use of your ability, to use the conductive property, when every single other ability in the game requires you to pay the cost for two uses?
I agree with Tels here.
The precedent is, as the text of conductive itself points out, lay on hands.
When you conduct lay on hands through the weapon, you pay the "cost" of lay on hands, IE "one use of lay on hands" twice.
So it stands to reason that when you conduct a composite blast through the weapon, you pay the cost of the blast, IE 2 burn, twice.
Except burn is not a "cost." You spend costs. You don't spend burn. You gain it. It is a penalty, not a cost.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Guys, guys..
Air(Lightning) is perfect for something. Even just one level.
I'll return later. [/cackles madly.]
Here's a terrifying NPC.
** spoiler omitted **...
A round is 6 seconds. 10 rounds in 1 minute. 60 minutes in 1 hour. 600 rounds in 1 hour. This means that Agesthran can boost his con by as little as 600 points, or as much as 2,400 points in 1 hour.
Slightly off, because Electric Fortitude fades at a rate of 1 per hour, meaning an hour of blasting himself is 599-2,396 u typed Con increases.
Slightly off, because Electric Fortitude fades at a rate of 1 per hour, meaning an hour of blasting himself is 599-2,396 u typed Con increases.Guys, guys..
Air(Lightning) is perfect for something. Even just one level.
I'll return later. [/cackles madly.]
Here's a terrifying NPC.
** spoiler omitted **...
A round is 6 seconds. 10 rounds in 1 minute. 60 minutes in 1 hour. 600 rounds in 1 hour. This means that Agesthran can boost his con by as little as 600 points, or as much as 2,400 points in 1 hour.
Wow, thank god for that...
For a moment there I thought this was a very broken concept.../Sarcasmoff
Slightly off, because Electric Fortitude fades at a rate of 1 per hour, meaning an hour of blasting himself is 599-2,396 u typed Con increases.Guys, guys..
Air(Lightning) is perfect for something. Even just one level.
I'll return later. [/cackles madly.]
Here's a terrifying NPC.
** spoiler omitted **...
A round is 6 seconds. 10 rounds in 1 minute. 60 minutes in 1 hour. 600 rounds in 1 hour. This means that Agesthran can boost his con by as little as 600 points, or as much as 2,400 points in 1 hour.
Depends on whether or not the con boost ends at the beginning of his 600th turn, or at the end of it.
But thank you for pointing out the grievous error in my maths. :P
|
|
Well I asked about the conductive thing in the kineticist thread, so hopefully we'll get an answer for that soon. As stated, I like to go for the less generous ruling, but if it's ruled that burn's only done once, long live the bowenticst.
I'm still convinced that it's not worth it, DPR-wise. Has anyone run the numbers including to-hit chances?
|
You should combine your guides because with the new double-barreled weapon errata I'm actually thinking long live the conductive double-barreled shotgun/vital strike kineticists(though I'm not sure if it would work, but if it did this would be the best way to shoot lightning out of your gun like a badass)
|
You should combine your guides because with the new double-barreled weapon errata I'm actually thinking long live the conductive double-barreled shotgun/vital strike kineticists(though I'm not sure if it would work, but if it did this would be the best way to shoot lightning out of your gun like a badass)
Even better if the shotgun bit works you now have a Ghost Rider archetype in the same book as the ability to gain a hellfire shotgun. This book is occult.
|
|
You should combine your guides because with the new double-barreled weapon errata I'm actually thinking long live the conductive double-barreled shotgun/vital strike kineticists(though I'm not sure if it would work, but if it did this would be the best way to shoot lightning out of your gun like a badass)
Combine guides? You mean gunslinger and kineticist? Yeah, DB Shotgun probably would be the best way to do it, although advanced firearms aren't standard for most games sadly. Still, it'd be a solid lightning/fire slinger.
No, Elemental Overflow bonus is for the amount of burn you've taken. If you've reduced the burn to 0, you've not taken any burn, so don't get the bonus.
So interesting thing. At later levels, when you use elemental overflow to increase your constitution score, your HP also increases and effectively you've reduced the amount of burn you've taken, but still have the higher benefits. For example, at level 6, you take 3 burn and then increase your CON by 2. Your HP increases by 6 and you've taken 18 nonlethal, so it's almost as if you've taken only 2 burn.
Related question.
If you use elemental overload to increase your constitution score, does that contribute to the maximum amount of burn you can take?
If you use elemental overload to increase your constitution score, does that contribute to the maximum amount of burn you can take?
Yes it does, you can take more burn this way.
Interesting. So the kineticist actually does have a built-in feature that allows it to take more burn per day, even though it's not specifically spelled out that way.
EDIT: I think that's actually more evidence towards rating elemental overflow a bit higher. Not only does it increase your damage and to-hit naturally, it also pays for itself at certain points and makes burn much more attractive of an option to use.
Yes it does, you can take more burn this way.
If you use elemental overload to increase your constitution score, does that contribute to the maximum amount of burn you can take?
Personally, I'm going to assume it's intended to function like Rage in that temporary bonuses don't increase the number of rage rounds you get. RAW it does increase your burn limit, but I'm betting that will be FAQ/Errata'd out.