A whip kineticist that takes Whirlwind and uses the talent to increase their size could be stupid fun in the right situation. Whirlwind Kinetic Whip every enemy within your 20 ft reach? Yes please!
I'm assuming you are thinking of the base large version, right? Because the Huge version would be 30'; which is of course, awesome. :)
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A whip kineticist that takes Whirlwind and uses the talent to increase their size could be stupid fun in the right situation. Whirlwind Kinetic Whip every enemy within your 20 ft reach? Yes please!I'm assuming you are thinking of the base large version, right? Because the Huge version would be 30'; which is of course, awesome. :)
Well, that's at 16th level. Most Kineticists will spend that vast majority of their play time as a large creature, rather than a huge creature.
Personally, I'm looking forward to using a Geokinetic "Earthen King" that Earth Glides around, popping up out of caves, Whirlwind Attacking, and thing sinking back into the Earth. Possibly even Spring Attack + Kinetic Whip + Earth Glide.
God, a a Geokinetic melee user is going to be an absolute terror to face. I've got chills going up my spine as to how I'm going to use this guy. :3
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Since you're modifying it right now, I suggest you to add that a darkwood heavy shield makes the shield proficiency feat redundant.
I'm half certain you can use your hand with a light shield, but with a heavy shield, you're not able to, which negates gather power, and that seems like a poor situation to be in. If I find out light works the same way, I'll list that only a buckler is really worth using.
I'm trying to decide between air's leap and air cushion, since I need one or the other do wings of air, and I can't really decide. Leaning towards air cushion in case I get knocked out midair, or something. What's the general consensus?
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Since you're modifying it right now, I suggest you to add that a darkwood heavy shield makes the shield proficiency feat redundant.
Proficiency yes, but not the need to have both hands free to gather power.
A masterwork buckler is what you want if you're not using shroud of water's shield bonus, because a buckler does not take a hand.
I made one recently with air's leap and aerial assault (mythic character, of course). When I pick up wings of air in two levels it will still be worth keeping.
In fact he'll end up jumping farther (further?) than his flight speed.
Wait, how can he jump further than his flight speed? I see nothing in the air's leap text that specifically allows you to jump further than your movement speed, which is a specific restriction under the acrobatics skill for jumping.
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I have one question about the wording of Wild talent.
It ays, that you need to be double the level of the Talent you select. This works for the normal wild talents but with infusions you have the problem that you can select the infusion only on uneven levels wich makes it wierd that you can only select the infusions one level after you gain acces to it. Is that intedet or should the kineticist be able to select their infusions at (double levle -1)?
I ask because the wording which you can take is only in the wild talent section and the infuision section lacks any information about what is able to be selected.
There is no double level -1. This means that your 1st and 3rd level infusion can only be level 1 infusions. It's not until level 5 that you can gain a 2nd level infusion.
Marking for interest, since the Zenith Games Guide to the Guides still doesn't have this guide or the other Kineticist guides linked from these boards (but has one linked from another forum).
Wait, how can he jump further than his flight speed? I see nothing in the air's leap text that specifically allows you to jump further than your movement speed, which is a specific restriction under the acrobatics skill for jumping.
The problem is fly is 60' while his base land movement is faster than that. Since Acrobatics is based on base land, that's the only restriction (SO FAR!).
Remember, this is Mythic, so he does have Impossible Speed... Oh, and he's gestalted with monk, so... ya.
look, I wasn't saying that Air's Leap is OMIGODEVERYCHARCTERSHOULDHAVETHISWHATWERETHEDESIGNERSHTINKG?!? I was just saying that I made a character that can actually get a lot of good use out of it more than what fly grants. Right now, with Kinetic Leap and all of his other bonuses to jump, at a stand still, assuming a 10 on the roll, he can jump 176' long and 44' high (limited to 80' because of his movement, of course). Fly only grants a 60' speed. :) In fact, in a few levels his climb speed will be faster than his fly speed. I'm tempted to find a way to give him a swim speed as well...
But that's not important right now. I like Air's Leap and I probably would still have taken it without the gestalt.
Mythic Gestalt is outside of the bounds of what use a normal character would have for the power. I wouldn't raise the rating just because of a possibility that it might be better for a corner case of a particular build that will be illegal at 95% of the tables out there.
Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't talking about raising the rating. I think most characters would agree with the assessment.
I was just pointing out that there were some circumstances (yes, mythic gestalt is quite a reach... even just one or the other might be stretching it) where it's fun.
And, like I said, I think I'd like it anyway. There's something fun about x2 or x4 jumping distances that you don't get from flying. But that's just me.
Ok...I am currently on a crusade to make a mysterious stranger gunslinger build that works (to an extent). My plan is to focus on Dead Shot, a deed that allows you to take one big powerful shot (single bullet) with a lovely expanded crit chance. However, past lvl 7 the mysterious stranger doesn't get much and so I am looking for multi-class options.
Why would I be posting this in a Kineticist thread? One word, Conductive. The conductive enchantment would allow me to add an SLA or SU to my dead shot. Of all the SLA's out there to choose from, the kineticists is nice because it can be used all day, it scales, can be bumped even further on occasion with burn, and can have other effects as riders. Now I know basically nothing about kinieticists. I don't own the book and only had the idea yesterday. Can any one point me towards energy based blasts (must be ranged touch attack SLA's or SU's) and effects that could be combined with the conductive property on a ranged weapon? What element do you think would work best?
Alternatively, you can tell me I am wasting my time with this idea and a Kineticist won't be viable as a multi-class.
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Looking forward to reading the guide! I love the Kineticist.
One thing caught my eye, though: Please don't use purple for the "good" end of the color scale, it is often used in other guides for the bad (reddish, dark) end. Personally, I favor sky blue; something bright at any rate.
Seeing as I'm 5 guides in, sorry but I'm not changing purple as my best rating. At this point I don't follow other's example.
Today's goal is to get APG and possibly UC/UM feats up, other projects are cropping up though, so I can't promise anything. I'll see about having this added to the guide of the guides though.
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Bowling Blast
I've seen this poorly rated in other guides as well. It struck me as very powerful when I first read it. Isn't Trip powerful even if it doesn't work every time you use it?
I'm wondering whether you get the Overflow bonus on the CM check...
but loses points for air’s reach only working on air blast and some of its better talents being later in its progression.
I thought Air's Reach was clarified to work with all air-element blasts, not just the air simple blast...?
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Bowling BlastI've seen this poorly rated in other guides as well. It struck me as very powerful when I first read it. Isn't Trip powerful even if it doesn't work every time you use it?
I'm wondering whether you get the Overflow bonus on the CM check...
but loses points for air’s reach only working on air blast and some of its better talents being later in its progression.I thought Air's Reach was clarified to work with all air-element blasts, not just the air simple blast...?
It does mean all air blast, not just the talent air blast, a lot of words are used more than absolutely needed in the class description. This is more for those who want to branch out into other elements.
Bowling BlastI've seen this poorly rated in other guides as well. It struck me as very powerful when I first read it. Isn't Trip powerful even if it doesn't work every time you use it?
I felt the same way about Bowling Blast. My only thought about why it might not be good is if you still have the issue of missing the CMD by 10 you are tripped. I didn't see anything saying otherwise, but I could be missing something.
I still took it, tho, because it sounds cool, and I like bowling :)
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Which is disadvantageous in solo play or a group of only ranged strikers but in many parties tripping an enemy is looked on favourably. It also kills their action economy. The class abilities should not be graded in a vacuum but in the assumption of being in a group.
Even still, it's not going to be useful to the group in most situations because of immunity to trip, flight, or massive CMDs.
It's also a investment of a valuable talent that could be used elsewhere to greater effect. There are plenty of ways to provide better control than tripping without penalizing your further attacks.
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Concerning Bowling Blast: I find Earth lends itself particularly well to a melee build, so that's good synergy, especially once you get Whip (and Kinetic Form) so as to take those AoOs yourself. Might be worthwhile to do Supercharge + Empower + Bowling + Whip so as to get an empowered AoO...
Enduring Earth
Type su Level 4 Burn -
Now here’s a solid boost, free additional duration helps you keep your focus elsewhere that it’s needed.
What would you even use it on?
Impale
That's at least a Blue if not a Purple, in my opinion. It's the highest-damage AoE in the arsenal.
Which is disadvantageous in solo play or a group of only ranged strikers but in many parties tripping an enemy is looked on favourably. It also kills their action economy. The class abilities should not be graded in a vacuum but in the assumption of being in a group.Even still, it's not going to be useful to the group in most situations because of immunity to trip, flight, or massive CMDs.
It's also a investment of a valuable talent that could be used elsewhere to greater effect. There are plenty of ways to provide better control than tripping without penalizing your further attacks.
Bowling Infusion is a 2nd level talent Infusion talent only available to Aether and Earth.
Earth has access to Bowling, Earth Climb, Entangling and Skilled Kineticist (Greater) as 2nd level Wild Talents (plus the 1st level talents).
Aether has access to Bowling, Telekinetic Haul and Skileld Kineticist (Greater) as 2nd level talents (plus 1st level talents).
Earth Climb, Telekinetic Haul and Skilled Kineticist (Greater) are all Utility talents, so they aren't a choice when it comes to Bowling Infusion as Bowling is an Infusion talent (selected at odd levels, whereas Utility are selected at even levels).
So you have a choice of Bowling or Entangling for Earth, or Bowling and nothing for Aether.
For First level talents, you have a choice of Draining, Extended Range, Kinetic Blade, and Kinetic Fist for universal talents and both Earth and Aether only give access to Pushing Infusion as a wild talent.
It's not like there is much competition for their 5th level talent. Keep in mind that you gain an Infusion talent at 1st and 3rd level, so you can get any two of the 1st level talents. In addition, Extra Kinetic Talent doesn't provide access to any talents other than 1st level talents until you are a 9th level Kineticist, so you can always use a feat to pick up a 3rd or even 4th 1st level Infusion if you need to.
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Overwhelming Soul
1st Mind Over Matter Charisma is a horrible ability to have as a key ability, and even with the new skills, that doesn’t validate this rough shift.
I disagree — The Face is a perfectly valid role to fill in your party, especially if nobody else does it. You'll also get better Will saves that regular Kineticists through Steadfast Personality, shoring up your biggest Achilles heel. You do lose out on power, but it's not an excessive price for an extra party role. It's also easier to boost Dex + Cha than Dex + Con (Halflings!), but of course the default Kineticist comes with their built-in boosts...
Some people also don't like the Burn mechanic and don't plan on accepting any — for those, Overwhelming Soul is a straight upgrade.
There's also the flavor aspect. Personally, I like the idea of a Halfling opera singer turned Aerokineticist.
Looking forward to reading the guide! I love the Kineticist.
One thing caught my eye, though: Please don't use purple for the "good" end of the color scale, it is often used in other guides for the bad (reddish, dark) end. Personally, I favor sky blue; something bright at any rate.
Seeing as I'm 5 guides in, sorry but I'm not changing purple as my best rating. At this point I don't follow other's example.
{. . .}
Too late to change even if it was your first guide, because several other guides use Purple for super-good and several different other guides use Purple for super-bad. It's very confusing, but the confusion is approximately saturated, so this guide isn't changing it. Depending uppon the shade chosen, Light Blue does often have the problem of being nearly invisible on a white background (but then again, several guides have also managed to choose shades of Light Green that have this problem). Somewhat (but only somewhat) more consistently, I have seen Pink for super-bad.
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A note on shields and heavy shields. It is entirely possible given Mark's past posts on this that while you may be able to gather with a buckler on a light shield lets you hold something, it is not a free hand.
Gathering with a buckler may force you to lose the bonus to AC when you gather. This is the way Mark was playing but he mentioned in a post the other interpretation is possible so be prepared for it to go either way.
Melee builds probably won't use gather power as much as they are making full attacks more frequently (though I do love empowering a whip as a large creature and moving into a central position with combat reflexes). So in a primary melee build, a shield becomes a viable option including the darkwood heavy shield. Keep in mind its only a move action to stow/put on a shield so if necessary changes use is pretty straight forward.
I'm not sure if this has been in question, but I bring news from 5 years ago!
So it seems that feats that modify a spell's DC, such as elemental focus, or abilities that modify a spell's damage, such as if you dipped a level in crossblooded sorcerer, would also affect the spell-like abilities of the kineticist.
Go nuts!
Sweet, Merciful Kinetic Blast = Bye Bye enemy Kineticist.
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Air is going to be really useful for melee kineticists depending on party composition as they can provide their own haste, which is pretty crucial to their DPR. In a party with caster who regularly use that ability its not crucial but for players that want to be more self sufficient or lack haste providers, air will be critical.
Personally for a melee specialist I would consider Celerity vs. Wings of Air to be a major conundrum. Tactically I would probably drop 2 burn into my defense then use the first one in combat to pop haste and get my extra stats, use the burn from buffer for the second then burn the rest of the fights. If the fight seems simple, it might be mroe efficient depending on party composition to just haste every round and let others take down the enemy.
So I'm considering building up a kineticist as a back up character around lv. 6. I was thinking telekineticist, but the game I'm in really needs solid combat capabilities. I'm seeing in the guide they're close to the bottom in terms of combat. Are they solid enough to handle their own though? If not, I guess I'll probably go Geo or Air.
Along the "spell like abilities as spells" line of thought, it seems to be that it might be worth, at some point, taking a level in crossblooded sorcerer for orc/dragon bloodlines. Every d6 your blasts roll deal an additional two damage. It's like rolling 1d8 and rerolling 1's and 2's!
^The thread above did say that Spell-Like Abilities would work with Metamagic Feats that had a spell level cost of +0. Technically, I don't think that the recent SLA FAQ nerf directly prevents Metamagic Feats of +0 spell level cost from working with Spell-Like Abilities, although it might prevent you from qualifying for the Metamagic Feats unless you had actual spellcasting.
So I'm considering building up a kineticist as a back up character around lv. 6. I was thinking telekineticist, but the game I'm in really needs solid combat capabilities. I'm seeing in the guide they're close to the bottom in terms of combat. Are they solid enough to handle their own though? If not, I guess I'll probably go Geo or Air.
How much damage are you wanting to be doing at 6th level? My 6th level Telekineticist does (copy-n-paste from my char-sheet):
Kinetic Blast (Telekinetic)
Ranged Attack vs AC
Action: Standard
Range: 120’ (Extended Range/Free)
Attack: +10 (BAB + MaxBurn + Dex)
Damage: 3d6+11 (11 = ½ Level + ConMod + MaxBurn*2)
1x XBurn = Damage * 1.5
MaxBurn = MIN(Level/3, TotalBurn)
XBurn = Burn spent on specified action.
I think in a campaign involving magical darkness that Brilliant Infusion would be rather better than you have rated it.
or when playing with a GM who is hardcore with lighting rules. A level 6 light effect will do great things vs most deeper darkness sources.
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Kinetic Blast (Telekinetic)
Attack: +10 (BAB + MaxBurn + Dex)
Don't forget the +1 from Point Blank Shot when you're in range. Applies to damage as well. Depending on your race, you might also have picked up Weapon Focus at that time, if you're worried about your accuracy.
Damage: 3d6+11 (11 = ½ Level + ConMod + MaxBurn*2).
1x XBurn = Damage * 1.5
In a full round, you can usually Gather Energy and fuel the Empower for free.
BTW, I think you assumed some pretty low starting abilities. You can start off with something like 16 Dex / 16 Con even without a single dump stat even in 15 pt buy. At 6th level, you'll have a +2 stat item for at least one of the stats, and once you take your 3rd point of Burn for the day (and you should, you won't lose any HP there!), you get a +2 size bonus to both Dex and Con. Bottom line, you should be looking at something like 18 Dex / 20 Con at 6th.
So your damage baseline will be of order 1.5 * (3d6 + 3 + 5 + 6 + 1) = 38. That's probably at least on par with what a Barbarian does in a full attack, given the lower hit chance of iteratives. In my experience, that's more than enough to be "solid" as a damage dealer (whatever the CharOp people might say).
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Overwhelming Soul
1st Mind Over Matter Charisma is a horrible ability to have as a key ability, and even with the new skills, that doesn’t validate this rough shift.I disagree — The Face is a perfectly valid role to fill in your party, especially if nobody else does it. You'll also get better Will saves that regular Kineticists through Steadfast Personality, shoring up your biggest Achilles heel. You do lose out on power, but it's not an excessive price for an extra party role. It's also easier to boost Dex + Cha than Dex + Con (Halflings!), but of course the default Kineticist comes with their built-in boosts...
Some people also don't like the Burn mechanic and don't plan on accepting any — for those, Overwhelming Soul is a straight upgrade.
There's also the flavor aspect. Personally, I like the idea of a Halfling opera singer turned Aerokineticist.
The face is nice, but it's not this class's role for the most part. Also there's no class that wouldn't want to base their key ability on con, like it's what made the scarred witch doctor worth talking about.
As for not liking burn, I'm not the biggest fan, but I also recognize that so many things key off of needing to take burn, and a once a day free burn doesn't help to make Force Shield great, it drops its value a lot. As well, it makes a lot of abilities 1/day, especially talents that require you to burn to get a great benefit as opposed to a meh one.
The only benefit this has is for undead/construct kineticist, but this wasn't a great choice for them anyways, it's like taking an undead/construct barbarian, some concepts just aren't supported well in the rules.
I think in a campaign involving magical darkness that Brilliant Infusion would be rather better than you have rated it.
or when playing with a GM who is hardcore with lighting rules. A level 6 light effect will do great things vs most deeper darkness sources.
And in a game with a lot of water, water kineticist are amazing, but the default assumption of the game doesn't involve needing to dispel darkness that often at all. It's like with a sorcerer's spell selection, you need things that are universally useful which is why you see them taking offensive spells like glitterdust over invisibility purge, as glitterdust works in many encounters, while invisibility purge will presumably be less useful overall.
Sorry about not getting anything done, I was in a huge malaise today, but reading over some of this convo makes me wonder if orc/dragon sorc would actually work for this, since after the SLA debacle, I don't know HOW to rule the interaction between SLA and spells.
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^The thread above did say that Spell-Like Abilities would work with Metamagic Feats that had a spell level cost of +0. Technically, I don't think that the recent SLA FAQ nerf directly prevents Metamagic Feats of +0 spell level cost from working with Spell-Like Abilities, although it might prevent you from qualifying for the Metamagic Feats unless you had actual spellcasting.
How would you apply a metamagic feat to a SLA? You don't prepare it or cast it spontaneously.