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Somewhat amusingly, Conceal Spell does work with kineticist wild talents and kineticist blasts, though...and like many with a poor Will save and little reason to invest in Wisdom, Unimpeachable Honor might be a decent choice. But yeah, kineticists don't get a huge amount with this book...I'm guessing because it's not really viewed as a class suited for intrigue. Hopefully it is more suited for horror...we'll have to see.
Given the high degree of equipment independence, I'd have thought a kineticist would work well for games of intrigue.
"Why do I always feel like somebody's watching meeee? I have no privacy!"
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I said viewed as not being suited for intrigue, not necessarily actually not suited for it. After all, telekineticists get their invisibility, hydrokineticists can do tricky disguises, and aerokineticists - as you note - are pretty good at spying as well. And the new talents certainly help there. Sneaky terrakineticists hiding in your walls...I'm guessing because it's not really viewed as a class suited for intrigue.I don't know. Aerokineticists are fantastic at long range spying.
This is why I love earthmeld, it's really THE talent I wanted to see in the original class but I'm glad it was included in this one. I can also say I'm super psyched for Horror, as I feel like Aether can have a LOT of fun with horror elements.
In other news, does anyone know of anything in the recent material that's worth including? This is the guide I want to add things to the most, but it seems like blood of shadows and arcane anthologies were a no go on material.
It's been my experience that kineticists at all levels have little trouble dealing "passable damage" and killing things that need killing.
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Not this again.I wasn't around for this discussion and it looks to me like you basically don't do damage outside of what is effectively 1d6+1 per level. I Just wanted to know why I was wrong. I really like the utility abilities from aether but cannot figure out how it's physically possible to do even remotely passable damage. Especially early on.
Really, I think the damage of kineticist is going to be somewhat low, there's no real argument there. But I think if damage is your only metric, play a barbarian (to which I have an un-updated guide).
A warrior with a bow can't entangle with a shot, can't set someone on fire, can't deal spread damage, and can't do a host of other things aside from the versatility of utility wild talents. Hell, the warlock that this class is modeled after did even worse damage without splat support (glavelock and clawlock), and this class has only had effectively 1 supplement to help it out.
I don't mind the lesser damage when it comes with such fun battlefield control options, so if you want to deal massive damage, this might not be the class for you.
A commoner, really? NPC ability scores aren't much good.
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There's basically nothing you can do early game. Your only optimization options are having good dex and con and at level 3 making sure you have one point of burn for the +1 attack +2 damage. Level 5 lets you apply a one point infusion for free and gives you empower (which is also free if you can gather). That helps a bit.
Unfortunately most of the kineticist's damage tricks revolve around adding things to composite blasts, which means level 7 minimum to pull them off and realistically level 11 or 16 to do them consistently without being ripped apart by burn.
At level 9 (Thanks a lot Paizo for the 3/4 BAB) you can try throwing in greater bull rush with pushing infusion to give your allies AoOs too.
You're ignoring gather power, which gives another point of infusion/metakinesis to play with. Yeah, early game you're an archer/gunslinger with some neat tricks, which is where the early game talents need to step things up. But gather power does at least let you use your 1st trick early, so it's not a total wash. Not like other martials are much ahead of you on the curve there, so when compared to other martial characters, I don't see much of a problem.
Again, the damage is low, but the entire class's chassis has to be taken into consideration. I won't say it's perfect, I have changes I would like to make myself (and am), but it's better than what you're saying it is.
Really, this discussion has gone on a lot, so can we take this to another thread? I'd rather not get a few more hundred post discussing the class, as the thread is about optimizing it, not questioning its existence.
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So if I want an aether character how would you build it? The two things I want are Telekinetic Haul and Telekinetic Invisibility. I want enough damage to be passable but cannot see how you do more than at best levelx5-6 damage without burning yourself to death.
Kidding aside, Aether is probably the element where you most have to admit you're taking utility over damage due to aetheric boost.
Your early game is going to be weak, and I can honestly admit for non flurry, deadly aim isn't worth it. My progression to 7th would probably be
1st: Pushing Infusion, Toughness (I feel like toughness is at its best at early levels)
2nd: TK Haul
3rd: Kinetic Blade, Weapon Focus (KB)
4th: TK Finesse
5th: Filler/Improved Initiative
6th: TK Invisibility
7th: Expand into earth, Filler
God, just looking over this list makes me sad about how much more this class needs to really stand on its own. But again, I'll talk about that in another thread.
I mentioned gather power in the post you quoted and implicitly super charge (that's what the level 11 thing is).
I'm not trying to imply the kineticist is terrible, merely that most of its ways to pump up damage to strong levels require you to be high level in order for them to be sustainable because supercharge and composite specialization come online so late.
Oh, I totally agree, the slow start of the class is a rather large issue. It's hard to play a low level character and really get the feel of the class perfect.
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It's +1 to hit and +2 damage per 3 levels. The empowered composite blasts are subject to double resists and would do (assuming starting 20 con) what is basically 3d6+3/2 levels + 2 damage/3 levels before resists/dr. I don't understand how a class which doesn't benefit from haste can do passable damage since those numbers are low....
So if I want an aether character how would you build it? The two things I want are Telekinetic Haul and Telekinetic Invisibility. I want enough damage to be passable but cannot see how you do more than at best levelx5-6 damage without burning yourself to death.
Besides the +1 to hit / +2 to damage per 3 levels, there's also the potential size bonus to Constitution that stacks with any enhancement bonuses and is basically constant until one rests again.
As for haste, melee kineticists with kinetic blade/whip benefit from it just fine.
From your damage example, looks like a physical blast (we'll go with telekinetic blast) with 1d6+1 every odd level. So assuming level 5 for 3d6+3. If Con is 20 and elemental overflow is active then the damage is 3d6+3 +5 Con modifier +2 overflow = 3d6+10. If you apply metakinesis (empower) to that, it's (3d6+10)x1.5 for an average of 30.75
Level 5 archer (with let's say equal Dex to kineticist and 20 Strength with +5 strength composite bow) with rapid shot and deadly aim does 1d8+9 for two attacks at a -4 penalty each = 13.5 average damage per hit.
Pretty comparable but so far the kineticist didn't have to spend as much gold to do all that.
If level 6, elemental overflow would grant a +2 size bonus to 2 physical scores (gonna assume Constitution and Dexterity for +1 to hit and damage) if the kineticist has 3 burn.
3d6+3 + 6 Con bonus + 4 overflow = 3d6+13. Empowered average = 35.25
At this point, as long as you spend a move action to gather power, metakinesis doesn't cost you extra burn.
Level 7, it's 4d6+14 with a simple physical blast. With a physical composite blast (going with solo aether for Force composite) it's 8d6+8 + 6 Con + 4 overflow = 8d6+18. Empower average = 69.
By that level, you can go use telekinetic haul and invisibility to your heart's content since they cost no burn.
You can build an archer that does more damage by that level, sure. But only while full attacking and if everything hits, a single arrow does way less than a simple blast. Outside of combat, a telekineticist has way more utility than every other archer build.
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I thought that was first party content. Anyway my point stands about this problem. There's literally no way to make a playable aether character and I sat here for the better part of a day trying to figure it out and couldn't. Fire doesn't interest me because it's utterly unplayable due to fire immunities being rampant in PFS and home games and earth is just unimpressive.
Oh, everything I mentioned in my build was first party, I'm just saying that at the moment, the first party content of the class is severely lacking. There's a lot of things that I think could and need to be added to make the class work better, but again, I don't feel like discussing that here is the best situation.
Aether is going to be doing low damage, but I think the versatility of basic TK/TK haul/TK finesse helps alleviate that some. To me, it's like playing a slow starting wizard. Early levels are going to be meh, but you get your toys as you level up. Odd for a martial, but again with things like pushing infusion, you can at least have some battlefield control.
I won't defend how slow it starts though, which is still a problem that you are correct about. That and the 'infusion' issue with getting them at odd levels, but if I go any further I'll have to spoiler myself.
Just played a PFS game where the lv7 Pregen Yoon did 105 damage in two rounds to a very annoying small flying creature. Very, very useful damage for the fight. Crazy large amount? no, but still, very useful.
Kineticist also does full damage to swarms and half damage to incorporeal creatures from level 1 on with every single blast. Something many martials struggle with, especially swarms.
So if I want an aether character how would you build it? The two things I want are Telekinetic Haul and Telekinetic Invisibility. I want enough damage to be passable but cannot see how you do more than at best levelx5-6 damage without burning yourself to death.
My aether kineticist has been consistently #1-2 in damage for my party for the most part, with a paladin, fighter, rogue/magus, and wizard. Here is how I built him. Just know that telekineticists do sacrifice some damage in favor of having the most utility of the elements. With this build I was a telekinetic rogue. With the Vagabond Child (Urban) you can get disable device as a class skill.
1: Extended Range, Point Blank Shot, Human Feat - Precise Shot
2: Telekinetic Finesse
3: Pushing, Weapon Focus(Blast)
4: Telekinetic Haul
5: Feat(Weapon Finesse), Bowling, Pushing -> Kinetic Blade (trade)
6: Telekinetic Invisibility
7: Expanded Element(Air(Lightning)), Feat(Toughness)
I have only once ever gotten 1 burn away from max burn/day. The rest of the time I'm usually at around 4-5 burn at the end of the day. The Aether defense talent really helps with mitigating your HP loss from burn by giving you a regenerating temp health pool, which saves on healing too.
The point was made that kineticists can't deal passable damage. This has been proven mathematically false.
Nobody said anything about dealing great damage.
Don't move the goal posts.
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I would not qualify 35 damage at level 6 as passable.The point was made that kineticists can't deal passable damage. This has been proven mathematically false.
Nobody said anything about dealing great damage.
Don't move the goal posts.
For a min-maxer I guess not, but for somebody who just wants to play a character with flair or with a specific theme in mind, its really not bad. You're also excluding the utility that goes along with that 35 damage. Without taking burn, you could be pushing the target back meaning they have to move again and can't get a full attack, you could attack an aoe cone, light them on fire, or be hitting them from 120 feet away.
Str 6
Dex 21(18)
Con 20(18)
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 12
Level 7: +1 Dex
Elemental Overflow: +2 Attack, +4 Damage, +2 Dex and Con
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus(Kinetic Blast)
Elements: Fire and Earth
Fire Simple Blast: +14, 4d6+2(Con)+4(EO)+1(PBS)+2(Fire's Fury)
Earth Simple Blast: +14, 4d6+4+5(Con)+4(EO)+1(PBS)
Magma Blast: +14, 8d6+8+5(Con)+4(EO)+1(PBS)+2(Fire's Fury)
13-33 fire
18-38 earth
28-68 magma
I don't think that's bad at all. Add 4 to Earth and Magma's damage if you use Deadly Aim.
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The Kineticist 7 above averages 42 damage with Empowered Earth Blast (which he can do at-will). He has a +14 to hit.
That's an average of 29.4 not counting crits vs. a CR 7 foe.
By this viability guide, which seems pretty accurate to my game experiences, APs, and (from other people's testimony) PFS, that puts their offense well into 'Green'. Which is where damage dealers are expected to be.
An aether kineticist could do identical damage to said earth blast at the same level with the same stats.
Undone, if that's not enough to be considered viable in your games, your games have significantly departed from standard game experiences of the vast majority of people. Which, based on previous posts of yours I expect they actually have.
There's nothing wrong with that, but being upset with a Class because it operates perfectly well at the standards the game expects is kinda unreasonable.
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The Kineticist 7 above averages 42 damage with Empowered Earth Blast (which he can do at-will). He has a +14 to hit.
That's an average of 29.4 not counting crits vs. a CR 7 foe.
By this viability guide, which seems pretty accurate to my game experiences, APs, and (from other people's testimony) PFS, that puts their offense well into 'Green'. Which is where damage dealers are expected to be.
An aether kineticist could do identical damage to said earth blast at the same level with the same stats.
Undone, if that's not enough to be considered viable in your games, your games have significantly departed from standard game experiences of the vast majority of people. Which, based on previous posts of yours I expect they actually have.
There's nothing wrong with that, but being upset with a Class because it operates perfectly well at the standards the game expects is kinda unreasonable.
I've actually gained a lot of insight by looking at various posts across threads, and it's been very helpful to me overall. For instance, one poster mentioned in a thread in the PFS forum that his standard is that every character of his should be capable of individually soloing the adventure with ease. When I looked at some of his other posts in context about various classes and abilities, everything he said made tons of sense, since that was his goal, and we generally try to not design towards that (even though it's certainly still possible to do it despite that), so it wasn't surprising that he tends to have differing opinions on design decisions given that baseline. And that's totally a fine baseline to have, even if we don't design towards it (and in fact try to avoid it).
I think it's really great that he mentioned those assumptions in that other thread, and I actually think a lot of people would understand each other better here on the boards if more people were as insightful as he was and took the time to make their assumptions clear. ^_^
How about we take this outback? I promise, there are no snipers out there waiting for my signal.
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Really, this discussion has gone on a lot, so can we take this to another thread? I'd rather not get a few more hundred post discussing the class, as the thread is about optimizing it, not questioning its existence.
How about we take this outback?
I've actually gained a lot of insight by looking at various posts across threads, and it's been very helpful to me overall. For instance, one poster mentioned in a thread in the PFS forum that his standard is that every character of his should be capable of individually soloing the adventure with ease. When I looked at some of his other posts in context about various classes and abilities, everything he said made tons of sense, since that was his goal, and we generally try to not design towards that (even though it's certainly still possible to do it despite that), so it wasn't surprising that he tends to have differing opinions on design decisions given that baseline. And that's totally a fine baseline to have, even if we don't design towards it (and in fact try to avoid it).
I think it's really great that he mentioned those assumptions in that other thread, and I actually think a lot of people would understand each other better here on the boards if more people were as insightful as he was and took the time to make their assumptions clear. ^_^
This is actually fair. I'm in a group where if you don't bring a lot of spells your damage needs to be when just hasted at least 10x your level preferably 12-15x level. It's not uncommon at all to have level 11 characters doing well over 150 points average.
We also use a slightly different exp system than base going to 10exp per level with CR-2 giving no exp CR -1 giving half an exp, CR= to CR+3 giving 1, CR+4 and up giving 1.5 with social encounters either 0 or .5. This allows for us to consistently face things above our level or face swarms of small stuff without inflating our level pointlessly. We also tend to have more encounters than the average group per day with 7-8 encounters being the norm and 1-3 encounter days being days where we scry and die the target.
That's why when I say 35 at level 6 is too low it's because when hasted I expect a character who has mostly damage with a little utility to be closer to 60-80...
Makes sense, especially makes sense that your group often faces higher CR challenges than normal (it looks like 4 level 6 PCs throwing out your expected damage would kill a CR 11 encounter of 4 CR 7s in about 1 round). Honestly, this isn't completely dissimilar to my group, which means you probably, like my group, get to those numbers with good teamwork and party buffs (like you've mentioned haste). Many people who run kineticist numbers do so for just the kineticist alone (it's a fairly self-sufficient class, so it doesn't do too badly even then), but if party buffs are up and running, strongly consider using blade/whip with a physical element, as buffs are going to make your iteratives start looking much nicer than for a group that has fewer buffs.
It's also true that I designed the math of the class in such a way that if you took Dex and Con as good stats, you would do solid damage for the baseline assumptions of the game and it would be hard to really blow those assumptions away without spending burn, so if the game is high enough above the baselines, you might want to throw in some modifications. I talked to another fellow with a similar game for a while and the solution I suggested that he decided he might try is to sort of gestalt elemental annihilator with the base class; I strongly disrecommend this option for any group that normally plays adventures with the baseline CRs, but it might work for you? You could also consider an elemental annihilator to begin with, which gives you lots and lots of attacks as its main shtick.
EDIT: A few posts since I started posting. First, it looks like I was exactly right about lots of buffs being around. Use kinetic whip or blade and it'll work out best for that meta! Second, looks like there's a new thread, so let's continue there? This is sort of on topic here at the moment in that I'm providing build advice at this point, but might still be better off elsewhere.
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The kineticist could really use a wild talent or feat that allows their blasts to benefit in some other way from effects like haste. It's kind of crummy that the kineticist can't often benefit from having helpful teammates. It's a team based game, and the kineticist is missing out on the good parts of that.
I mean one of the things I am disappointed in is that EO is capped. I feel like the class would be good if it simply wasn't capped and as you got closer to death and burned more you'd become extremely strong.
I'm afraid that would just make people feel that they have to constantly stay on the cusp of death as their baseline.
The kineticist could really use a wild talent or feat that allows their blasts to benefit in some other way from effects like haste. It's kind of crummy that the kineticist can't often benefit from having helpful teammates. It's a team based game, and the kineticist is missing out on the good parts of that.The first time I read it I thought they had that (the ability to do multiple attacks for an infusion) but it turns out that wasn't the case. Honestly I feel like this infusion would literally fix 100% of the issues.
Full attack Infusion
Level 3, Burn 1
You can full attack with your blasts taking a -5 for each attack beyond the first (Simulating full BAB) You can make one more attack at +6 to +10 BAB, two at +11 to +14 and at +15 to +20 you can make 3 additional attacks. This benefits from haste.
It's a good thing you're not in charge of the kineticist because that's terribly designed and OP for the class.