The Grappling Infusion damage is NOT dependent on succeding on the grapple check, but the opposite. You first roll the save against the base blast, and then, if any amount of damage is been dealt, you make the grapple check.
Given that it can only be used with Deadly Earth, Wall or Cloud, it will always cost at least 6 burn points (for the wall) or 7 for the other 2. A bit too much to be worth it if you ask me, since the bonus on the check is not impressive and can't be improved in any way.
shroudb wrote: Kindaul wrote: So how exactly does the Grappling infusion work? It only calls out not being able to pin or move. But do you get your blast damage that you infused with grappling as part of a successful grapple check on your turn similar to black tentacles? Or is the damage limited to that of the blast it was used with, like when a creature enters or ends it's turn in the affected area for deadly earth? Also, what is the CMD to break the grapple? Would it be 2+Lvl+Con+Dex+10 as normal. Or again like black tentacles does it lack a Dex bonus? Grappling is a substance infusion
It NEEDS to be paired with a form infusion (one of the 3 form infusions mentioned)
So you have a SINGLE blast like a grappling deadly earth earth blast.
Deadly earth modifies your damage as it says, grappling doesn't, so you do damage as per your blast, modified by deadly earth, modified as per grappling (no modification)
If you had a form infusion p.e. that said "your blast deals half damage" and paired it with a substance infusion that also said "it deals half damage" then you would end with a blast that did 1/4 damage.
As for the cmd, I'm guessing like most such cases it's cmb+10 Thx, but that doesn't really answer my main question of does damage happen when you successfully maintain the grapple as well as dictated by the associated infusion eg. Deadly Earth? Effectively doing deadly earth damage when you maintain the grapple on your turn and then doing the same damage again if the creature fails to leave the affected area on it's own turn. I imagine it's limited to dealing damage on the creatures turn after the first round as deadly earth dictates. But it isn't exactly clear, as it only specifically prohibits the move and pin options for a successful maintain grapple check.
Maintaining the grapple does not deal any damage per se. Pinning and moving are just examples.
Grapplin Infusion wrote: The blast only grapples opponents; it can't perform other functions of grapple maneuvers such as pinning or moving the opponent
Depends, grappling makes a check every time it does damage:
You cast deadly earth+grappling (2burn @12)
All opponents get a bit of damage and roll for grappling.
If you get them, then on your turn they need to break, if they don't, they get half blast damage.
Even if they do break, they have spend their standard, and only have their move to get out, and it's hard terrain, meaning double movement cost.
If they don't they get damage+grapple again.
Even more dangerous is to drop it into a bottleneck.
Now when they enter (move action) they get damage+grapple. Even if they use their standard to break, that is the end of their round, so damage +grapple again. Basically giving you at least 2 chances, and probably 3 to grapple someone trying to cross, while also dealing 1.5x blast damage in the process.
Dekalinder wrote: The Grappling Infusion damage is NOT dependent on succeding on the grapple check, but the opposite. You first roll the save against the base blast, and then, if any amount of damage is been dealt, you make the grapple check.
Given that it can only be used with Deadly Earth, Wall or Cloud, it will always cost at least 6 burn points (for the wall) or 7 for the other 2. A bit too much to be worth it if you ask me, since the bonus on the check is not impressive and can't be improved in any way.
I think the bonus is a little better than you may think.
At lvl 12 which is the earliest you can grab Deadly Earth with the human FCB it would look something like this with weapon focus and assuming max overflow bonus.
2(Huge)+10(Con)+12(Lvl)+4(Overflow)+1(Focus)=29 CMB
You could even grab Gauntlets of Skilled maneuver for a fairly cheap +2 if you want and Bred for War trait is another +1.
CR 13 creatures have anywhere in the 30's for CMD with some exceptions. Since this will more likely be a crowd control option for larger numbers of less powerful enemies anyways and given the 120ft range this is a decent option to possibly disable ranged attackers whether it be an enemy caster who hasn't gotten off the ground or a group of archers. With the grapple not only keeping them from acting but doing damage round after round they fail to escape.
Edit: Ah yeah I missed that the grapple check only happens when the blast deals damage. Makes a little more sense now, although would it have killed them to specifically say it can't perform any grapple actions other than maintain? Not to mention a clarification on it's CMD would be nice although I would imagine it is indeed just 10+CMB like black tentacles. But you never know :)
You can't grab DE at 12 with the human FCB since the "extra wild talent" feat is 2 level below the max (so max level 4 infusions at 12).
I'm pretty sure all those bonus don't applies. From what I can see, is not you but the blast who perform the grapple check. Infact, you get a size bonus from the infusion being considered Huge, and not from your actual size. Also, the line presenting you with the check bonus do not say that your level is "in place of your BAB" as many other would, once again implying that is the infusion who does the work, and his BAB is equal to your level. This means to me that you do not apply your personal bonuses to the check.
OFC I might be wrong.
not so sure you apply items+overflow on it.
i mean since it has it's own attack bonus, it's own size modifier, it uses it's own action and etc, it seems like a different "entity" so the items/abilities that affect YOUR cmb, don't necessarely affect "it's cmb"
*see edit
(as opposed to p.e. bowling infusions and etc that are a direct maneuver that you do with your attack)
on the other side, if blasts are your "weapons" and infusions just modify those "weapons", and deadly earth is 100% one of those "blasts" then it stands to reason that it is a "maneuver done through your weapon" and as such those bonuses would apply.
a little clarification wouldn't be a bad thing
edit:
Dekalinder wrote:
I'm pretty sure all those bonus don't applies. From what I can see, is not you but the blast who perform the grapple check. Infact, you get a size bonus from the infusion being considered Huge, and not from your actual size. Also, the line presenting you with the check bonus do not say that your level is "in place of your BAB" as many other would, once again implying that is the infusion who does the work, and his BAB is equal to your level. This means to me that you do not apply your personal bonuses to the check.
OFC I might be wrong.
scratch that:
the actual language is:
Quote: Your cloud, deadly earth, or wall blast grows tendrils that hold your enemies in place. Whenever a creature takes damage from the infused blast, you can attempt a combat maneuver check to have the blast grapple that opponent. Your bonus on this check is equal to 2 + your kineticist level + your Constitution modifier (treat the blast as a Huge creature). The blast only grapples opponents; it can't perform other functions of grapple maneuvers such as pinning or moving the opponent. If the blast is already grappling an opponent, it receives a +5 bonus on its combat maneuver check to maintain the grapple, as normal. You can use this infusion only if you also use the cloud, deadly earth, or wall form infusion. it seems that, even though it is with a different than normal bonus, it is YOU who actually do the maneuver (through your "weapon") so it would actually benefit from items (as RAW, no clue about RAI) on this check
p.s.
go with a dusty rose prism ioun stone in a wayfinder instead of the gauntlets:
the gauntlet's for 4k give you +2 to cmb on 1 maneuver
the ioun with 5.5k gives +1ac, +2cmb, +2cmd on ALL maneuvers
(although by lvl12 if you focus on maneuvers you should probably have both)
"Your bonus on this check is equal to 2 + your kineticist level + your Constitution modifier" It actually says "Your bonus", black tentacles specifically refers to the tentacles having their own CMB. RAW I believe I am correct in my assumptions that overflow bonuses and any other bonuses you can grab to CMB or attack rolls that affect your kinetic blast will apply. But RAI could be as you say, however it was intended is unclear at this point then.
Edit: Also yeah I didn't realize human FCB was actualy 1/6th of the Extra Wild Talent Feat as opposed to just 1/6th of a Wild Talent. So dumb, wonder why they were so keen on keeping people from having too much fun with this class lol.
Well then, by RAW, you bonus is that and nothing more. It does not say "misc other bonus to grapple". RAW is a dangerous thing to call in play. Ofcourse, the use of the word "your" could be poignant. Or could be not. I really don't know what is what anymore lately.
That is true if you go hardcore RAW looking at the ability. But for combat maneuvers there is a rule that says a combat maneuver is an attack roll and as such you apply all bonuses you have to attack rolls(abilities,buffs,feats etc.) as long as those bonuses apply universally or to the weapon you are using to perform the maneuver.Kinetic blasts are also considered to be weapons for the purpose of weapon focus and whatnot. So in that sense overflow bonuses and weapon focus should apply at least. But as you said, who knows what's what with this game anymore? Haha.
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so, i wonder if something like this is possible (it SOUNDS resonable in my mind):
geokineticist:
round1:
5ft step into the ground (via earth glide)
full round supercharge
round2:
5ft out of the ground
move action supercharge
standard action unleash whatever (-5 from supercharge -3 from infusion spec, so really, an "empowered metal blast magnetic impale" for no cost
or even an "empowered grappling deadly earth" or etc
DPR wise it's not optimal, since empowered/composite each round (but not empowered composite) will outdamage it, but for when you want to concerve burn and offer a bit of utility it seems way safer to just go underground, gather power, emerge, blast. since there aren't a lot of things that can damage you 5ft under the earth.
additionaly, with tremorsense, you can probably cast from below ground since everything touching the ground 30ft around you is "visible" and has no concealment. Direct blasts won't be a thing ofc, but mobile blasts, aoe's, walls, etc won't seem to be a problem since they originate in your (tremorsensed) LoS
am i wrong here?
both seem like a viable ways to be a bit more defensive, and/or manage your burn easier, giving geo an additional benefit
It's possible, but you would need to hold your breath or have some way to breathe. If you have air as a secondary element for air shroud you open up a lot more options for earth glide tricks.
eh for the 1 round you can hold your breath np, and a normal kineticist would have ~+10con by lvl 12 so that's ~60 rounds if only moving, 30 rounds if you are actually doing stuff.
if you need more than 6 minutes (or 3 doing stuff) you can always buy a few air crystals at 50gp/minute of air to prolong duration
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shroudb wrote: so, i wonder if something like this is possible (it SOUNDS resonable in my mind):
geokineticist:
round1:
5ft step into the ground (via earth glide)
full round supercharge
round2:
5ft out of the ground
move action supercharge
standard action unleash whatever (-5 from supercharge -3 from infusion spec, so really, an "empowered metal blast magnetic impale" for no cost
or even an "empowered grappling deadly earth" or etc
...
Love the visuals of this. I know you're just 5ft-stepping to get out of the way, but the image of a geokineticist "diving" for the power underground, and emerging, dust covered, to unleash it upon their foes... kudos.
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Efreeti wrote: shroudb wrote: so, i wonder if something like this is possible (it SOUNDS resonable in my mind):
geokineticist:
round1:
5ft step into the ground (via earth glide)
full round supercharge
round2:
5ft out of the ground
move action supercharge
standard action unleash whatever (-5 from supercharge -3 from infusion spec, so really, an "empowered metal blast magnetic impale" for no cost
or even an "empowered grappling deadly earth" or etc
...
Love the visuals of this. I know you're just 5ft-stepping to get out of the way, but the image of a geokineticist "diving" for the power underground, and emerging, dust covered, to unleash it upon their foes... kudos. visual wise, don't forget, that while underground, gather energy still makes a 20ft radius "loud and visible" display of power.
so it would look like a hemisphere of floating clumps of rock and earth spiraling and gravitating towards the earth above where you are.
if you want to really make an impact though, nothing beats shift earth as a swift (quicken sla @16) to raise a 5ft cube of earth in front of you, that almost simultaneously seems to start attracting the rest of the matter around it (since you 5ft step into it and start supercharging) only to emerge from the pillar (the enemy would have to extrapolate that you actually went in, since from the moment you raise the pillar you have total concealment), the earth that was floating solidifing as you fling it.
shroudb wrote: Efreeti wrote: shroudb wrote: so, i wonder if something like this is possible (it SOUNDS resonable in my mind):
geokineticist:
round1:
5ft step into the ground (via earth glide)
full round supercharge
round2:
5ft out of the ground
move action supercharge
standard action unleash whatever (-5 from supercharge -3 from infusion spec, so really, an "empowered metal blast magnetic impale" for no cost
or even an "empowered grappling deadly earth" or etc
...
Love the visuals of this. I know you're just 5ft-stepping to get out of the way, but the image of a geokineticist "diving" for the power underground, and emerging, dust covered, to unleash it upon their foes... kudos. visual wise, don't forget, that while underground, gather energy still makes a 20ft radius "loud and visible" display of power.
so it would look like a hemisphere of floating clumps of rock and earth spiraling and gravitating towards the earth above where you are I'd say you hear a deep rumbling, and the earth is shaking like a very localized earthquake.
As for the Earth Kineticist, the Seismic Master should be more towards coded blue.
Here is the text for the Earthquake spell:
Earthquake wrote: When you cast earthquake, an intense but highly localized tremor rips the ground. The powerful shockwave created by this spell knocks creatures down, collapses structures, opens cracks in the ground, and more. The effect lasts for 1 round, during which time creatures on the ground can't move or attack. A spellcaster on the ground must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose any spell he or she tries to cast. The earthquake affects all terrain, vegetation, structures, and creatures in the area. The specific effect of an earthquake spell depends on the nature of the terrain where it is cast.
Cave, Cavern, or Tunnel: The roof collapses, dealing 8d6 points of damage to any creature caught under the cave-in (Reflex DC 15 half) and pinning that creature beneath the rubble (see below). An earthquake cast on the roof of a very large cavern could also endanger those outside the actual area but below the falling debris and rubble.
Cliffs: Earthquake causes a cliff to crumble, creating a landslide that travels horizontally as far as it falls vertically. Any creature in the path takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble (see below).
Open Ground: Each creature standing in the area must make a DC 15 Reflex save or fall down. Fissures open in the earth, and every creature on the ground has a 25% chance to fall into one (Reflex DC 20 to avoid a fissure). The fissures are 40 feet deep. At the end of the spell, all fissures grind shut. Treat all trapped creatures as if they were in the bury zone of an avalanche, trapped without air (see Environment for more details).
Structure: Any structure standing on open ground takes 100 points of damage, enough to collapse a typical wooden or masonry building, but not a structure built of stone or reinforced masonry. Hardness does not reduce this damage, nor is it halved as damage dealt to objects normally is. Any creature caught inside a collapsing structure takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble (see below).
River, Lake, or Marsh: Fissures open under the water, draining away the water from that area and forming muddy ground. Soggy marsh or swampland becomes quicksand for the duration of the spell, sucking down creatures and structures. Each creature in the area must make a DC 15 Reflex save or sink down in the mud and quicksand. At the end of the spell, the rest of the body of water rushes in to replace the drained water, possibly drowning those caught in the mud.
Pinned Beneath Rubble: Any creature pinned beneath rubble takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while pinned. If a pinned character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead.
Emphasis mine. Since there is no burn cost to this, if you position it correctly, you can basically lock down a group of creatures on the ground. And if you are in Open Ground, you can constantly target the area until they fall inside a fissure and be buried alive.
In a cave, it is lockdown and 8d6 damage per round.
The most important part is that you force them to not move or attack. In that time, you can have your ranged characters (other than you) to shoot them for easy pickings.
Once that big red dragon touches the land, you can spam this every round and it can not do anything.
I would say the intent of that is that you can't "walk", rather, that a creature bound to land cannot move. The creature isn't paralyzed, I would allow a dragon to fly off during their turn and then act normally there after.
I'm curious what this does to creatures below ground, specifically can you earth glide under the enemy and use this centered on yourself to become a fixture of terraforming power, while using tremorsense to keep tabs on foes until they die?
Also, who wants to get the big guys attention on this matter and sort out just what the geo really is capable of in terms of offensive power from underground, surviving earthquakes by being in the dirt, and supercharging while buried in his element with possible 5' steps to make it useful?
I feel a minifaq is in order.
That would actually be a question towards the Earthquake spell, rather than the kineticist's ability to use it every round. A new thread can clear things up specifically for it. =)
However, disregarding flying, creatures that only have a land speed are pretty much hosed.
Shiroi wrote: I would say the intent of that is that you can't "walk", rather, that a creature bound to land cannot move. The creature isn't paralyzed, I would allow a dragon to fly off during their turn and then act normally there after.
I'm curious what this does to creatures below ground, specifically can you earth glide under the enemy and use this centered on yourself to become a fixture of terraforming power, while using tremorsense to keep tabs on foes until they die?
Also, who wants to get the big guys attention on this matter and sort out just what the geo really is capable of in terms of offensive power from underground, surviving earthquakes by being in the dirt, and supercharging while buried in his element with possible 5' steps to make it useful?
I feel a minifaq is in order.
The spell is pretty explicit, any creature on the ground cannot move or attack. It doesn't say creatures with only land speeds, it simply says creatures on the ground. So an earth elemental, (or geokinetic) would not be able to use earth glide, a flying creature wouldn't be able to take flight etc.
Reasonable to allow such creatures to use their movement, but the rules on it are pretty cut and dry.
After a long hiatus, traits are now up, not a huge section, but whatever.
Next up is multiclassing, and much like the alchemist, I don't see this being a huge section since kineticist really enjoy being single classed. Hell, I might just list some VMC that I like and call it a day.
So something to point out. It can make for an interesting class to dip into. If you go elemental annihilator /+overwhelming soul, you can get a weapon that deals damage based off of your con or charisma. Could make a fun dip for a paladin, get charisma to all the stats.
Also there's been an update for the monk archetype, their flurry gets the full-bab like a monk does. it's a slight boost to that archetype.
Chess Pwn wrote: So something to point out. It can make for an interesting class to dip into. If you go elemental annihilator /+overwhelming soul, you can get a weapon that deals damage based off of your con or charisma. Could make a fun dip for a paladin, get charisma to all the stats.
Also there's been an update for the monk archetype, their flurry gets the full-bab like a monk does. it's a slight boost to that archetype.
That's not bad at all, really seems like a pally/oracle dip since I can't think of another charisma based martial type (swashbuckler?), but not a bad idea.
And that's good, I don't think it pushes the archetype up to green, but it might push that class feature up to green.
Elemental Ascetic is still less accurate than a base kinectist because they don't have elemental overflow boosting to hit both directly by giving bonus to hit and indirectly by giving a bonus to stats.
I love monks and unarmed fighting, but I just can't get on board with the Elemental Ascetic. Maybe with a dip into Sensei Monk or Cleric of Irori for guided hand, giving you Wis to Hit and the ability to go full wisdom based.
some objervations about earth (since i've only played with earth and aether and i agree on most things you said about aether):
Quote:
Flesh of Stone: You’ve got what equates to invulnerable rager level of DR for free, that’s awesome. It’s not really too worth it to burn for higher DR, but the bonus you get from burn is pretty good.
maybe on very early levels it's worth taking a burn for it. but this scales horribly (with burn that is, the base is amazing). Since effectivly, you need equal hits to your level to even even out. And while at lvl6, you can probably count on getting hit 6 times, at lvl10 getting git 10times is kinda pushing it for your survivability. And that's just to even out, nevermind coming ahead.
Quote: Earth Climb: Another method of travel is always great, although it makes the class skill redundant. actually it synergises quite well. seeing as climb speed is like the only speed that requires you to roll climb (or take 10 since you can, do it!) for even the slightest climb. So, if you need an average climb check of 30 for a building wall, and climb just gives you +8 and take 10, and you've probably dumped str down... you kinda need your Climb skill to work with it
Quote: Magnetic Infusion: While a little expensive, for most parties this is a +4 on all attack rolls for the next round, which is a HUGE boost in accuracy for most of you, making this a very solid tool in your arsenal. i would personally bump this up to purple for earth only, since it applies to the very blast that applies it!. As well as giving you a very nice boost to all those reflex save dc for your metalic form/substance infusions!
Quote: Tremorsense: You almost have to spend burn on this, and even then the duration isn’t great. Being able to avoid worrying about cover and such is nice, but even the distance on it is lacking, making it only for close quarters. a nice thing that synergises well with it is the fact that you can navigate so much easier with it when you are burrowing. since you can actually "see" what's above you!
Quote: Enduring Earth: Now here’s a solid boost, free additional duration helps you keep your focus elsewhere that it’s needed. meh. By the time you get this, you should already have at least 7rounds+ on your durations, making them 14 won't make that much of an impact (always imo)
Quote: Shift Earth: Here’s an ability that’ll really have you feeling like you have control over the earth, helpful for setting up tricky situations and other plans you may have. at least blue for me. You can always raise a square infront of you for instant, solid cover. You can block whole passages in dungeons in seconds. It can't be dispelled. You can open "doors" underground. The possibilities are really endless, for both in and out of combat.
Quote: Earth Glide: And another new stealthy mode of transportation to play with comes into play, although nothing is allowing you to breathe underground, so you might need to pack something to help with that. that should be at least blue, if not purple, for the simple fact you can 5ft step inside the ground for some amazing survivability. Even supercharging for a full round, 5ft step out to blast without risking the chance of going kaboom when someone looks funny at you. While flying is cool, while you are up in the air you are visible/perceivable by almost everything, as well in LoS for those nasty spells. While inside the earth, you are 1000% more safe+ as i said before (but i feel like i have to say that again). YOU CAN 5FT STEP INSIDE THE PERFECT COVER/+CONCEALMENT!
Those were at least, my own pov about earth.
@Shroudb
I make it a point not to quote longer post, so I'll reply like this.
1. Flesh of Stone: Yeah, totally agree, but even early you have better things to burn with. It's meh as a burn source (unlike aether, which needs it), but I guess it's okay for burn. I mean hell, if it was any better it'd be post purple, the legendary RAINBOW rating.
2. Earth climb: I didn't climb enough to know this, changed!
3. Magnetic Infusion: I'm actually thinking of giving it purple, especially for a melee heavy party. It's a huge boost, especially for earth.
4. Tremorsense: I'm not a huge fan of blind/tremorsense, since creatures you can't see still get total concealment. It's not nearly as exacting as Toph would lead you to believe.
5. Enduring Earth: Yeah, this was a tad high, it's green now.
6.Shift Earth: Upgraded to blue, I wish this had a lower level version since it's really a big shift into earth moving.
7. Earth Glide: There's synergy here, and the idea of five foot stepping into the ground is hilarious, but it's not super amazing.
Thanks for the input, got some changes in there, Earth and Fire are probably my fave elements (I've been playing Fire myself. )
Man... I REALLY want the Aether / Earth ultimate defence combo at level 7...
But at the same time I don't think it's worth losing my composite blast and DR bypass D:
Level 15 is so far...
I think Aether is awesome... Right up to the point where you get your composite blasts. After that it makes me cry
Honestly, I don't think there's a lot of multiclass suggestions I really like. Looking over VMCs, I kind of like druid and rogue, but aside from that, I really feel like I don't need a huge multiclass section. Until otherwise stated, I think I'm pretty happy with that section as is.
Stalwart Defender can boost your CON.
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Aether and rogue would work well together as VMC I think... What with the Invisibility at will, you could actually reliably pull off a nice Sneak Attack combo.
N. Jolly wrote: Chess Pwn wrote: So something to point out. It can make for an interesting class to dip into. If you go elemental annihilator /+overwhelming soul, you can get a weapon that deals damage based off of your con or charisma. Could make a fun dip for a paladin, get charisma to all the stats.
Also there's been an update for the monk archetype, their flurry gets the full-bab like a monk does. it's a slight boost to that archetype.
That's not bad at all, really seems like a pally/oracle dip since I can't think of another charisma based martial type (swashbuckler?), but not a bad idea.
And that's good, I don't think it pushes the archetype up to green, but it might push that class feature up to green. Ninja would be good for this. You need CHA for Ki, and there is good synergy with sneak attack taking the place of normal blast progression. Paladin 2/elemental annihilator+overwhelming soul 1/Ninja x would be CHA to everything, have smite evil to fall back on to bypass dr, and have a hell of a lot of sneak attack that they could use with invisibility trick.
Cavalier VMC works well with a melee kineticist, gaining +Level to damage as well as several options for what order you pick.
Wizard VMC has a neat option as well, specifically in the enhancement subschool of the transmutation school. Bonuses to physical ability scores that stack with the size bonuses granted by the elemental overflow go nicely, and you even get a familiar to go with the high HP of the kineticist.
I feel that far more classes want a dip *into* kineticist than the other way around.
Rogues getting a solidly reliable 30ft touch attack that (nobody has said can't) delivers their sneak attack damage. Or permanent mage hand and a non-touch sneak attack deliverer.
For a 2 level dip you get a sometimes amazing defense ability too.
Other classes have their ups and downs with it, but a melee fighter never argues with extra options to deal with high ac or flying targets. The low damage of a 1 level dip is still countered by not ever being properly weaponless, with a weapon capable of range or melee methods.
Archers can benefit from conductive, depending on errata.
I do also feel you're still holding geo back on earth glide, for the reason that they can summon and control an earth elemental all night long from underground. Your move action to control it means nothing when they can't see you to attack.
One move action every few rounds to poke your head up and back down for air, and the other controls an elemental that they can kill without bothering you since you'll just make another next turn. For free. Over and over again. Using tremorsense to keep track of them.
Shiroi wrote: Rogues getting a solidly reliable 30ft touch attack that (nobody has said can't) delivers their sneak attack damage. Or permanent mage hand and a non-touch sneak attack deliverer.
Solidly reliable? Please.
This is the Rogue we're talking about. Since it's ranged, you need to be hidden or they need to be flatfooted for you to strike. This isn't going to just happen, it takes a lot of setup. And elemental blasts tend to be a bit noisy and visible, especially if you're gathering power at all.
You'll need an energy Kinetic Blade to get something new out of it (hit against touch AC), which you can't get as an Elemental Annihilator. Which means that you have to stick around long enough for Infusion Specialization so that your Kinetic Blade isn't costing you HP every swing. Which means it's no longer a dip.
N. Jolly wrote: Honestly, I don't think there's a lot of multiclass suggestions I really like. Looking over VMCs, I kind of like druid and rogue, but aside from that, I really feel like I don't need a huge multiclass section. Until otherwise stated, I think I'm pretty happy with that section as is. After looking at making a pyrokineticist, I feel that a certain prestige class may work quite well, for thematic effect.
Evangelist would be quite nice, especially after hitting level 2 with it. It is effectively a single level dip, with quite a few bonuses added, especially skills.....
Inner Sea Gods, page 198 wrote: Aligned Class (Ex): Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
Not single level. It sets your BAB back annoyingly, (3/4 BAB prestige classes ;_; ) gives you the worst single good save, and costs a feat that you probably wouldn't take otherwise (Pharasma dagger Rogues notwithstanding).
Besides that, it's an excellent prestige class. It gives some awesome AC bonuses on top of lots of skill points and whatever your class would have otherwise.
I wonder, if you tk blast a splash weapon, wouldn't one take the blast damage, and then (since the tk blast also damages the object) break the splash weapon on the opponent's square and do the splash damage aoe?
An alchemist dip then could basically add your int to damage, give you mutagen, and a few lvl 1 extracts.
On the feats section, I wonder if you can somehow squeeze kirin style in, especially if you play with combat stamina rules.
True enough, but considering that the 3/4 BAB doesn't change much for the Kineticist, I believe it's quite nice for flavor opportunities without too much of a drawback. Besides, if you live long enough, no feats are needed to fly!
Imagine, a member of the Cult of the Dawnflower, trying to spread blessing of Sarenrae. Through both interacting with the general populace and through flames of rapture upon their enemies.
I also wonder if one can do a blistering feint with a flame kinetic blade
Shiroi wrote: One move action every few rounds to poke your head up and back down for air, and the other controls an elemental that they can kill without bothering you since you'll just make another next turn. For free. Over and over again. Using tremorsense to keep track of them. Necklace of Adaptation. If you're always underground, do you really need the natural armor boost to AC? Stay underground forever, and just endlessly poke at your enemies.
By the way, Earth Glide is stupidly good on a geokinetic with Spring Attack. 30 ft. out of the ground, attack with Kinetic Blade/Whip, 30 ft. back into the ground.
The more I look at the Kineticist, the more I think it excels at recurring villain roles. It's just soooo good at skirmishing and hit and run tactics. Perfect for making a party hate an individual.
Question: Can anyone figure out a way to make Glorious Heat work with the Kineticist?
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tels wrote: Question: Can anyone figure out a way to make Glorious Heat work with the Kineticist? It seems to be strictly upon casting divine spells with the fire descriptor, so there is not really any recourse.
Tels wrote: Shiroi wrote: One move action every few rounds to poke your head up and back down for air, and the other controls an elemental that they can kill without bothering you since you'll just make another next turn. For free. Over and over again. Using tremorsense to keep track of them. Necklace of Adaptation. If you're always underground, do you really need the natural armor boost to AC? Stay underground forever, and just endlessly poke at your enemies.
By the way, Earth Glide is stupidly good on a geokinetic with Spring Attack. 30 ft. out of the ground, attack with Kinetic Blade/Whip, 30 ft. back into the ground.
The more I look at the Kineticist, the more I think it excels at recurring villain roles. It's just soooo good at skirmishing and hit and run tactics. Perfect for making a party hate an individual. I don't think you can spring attack with blasts, since you can only use blade/whip as part of an "attack action, charge or full attack" and spring attack is it's own separate full round action
shroudb wrote: Tels wrote: Shiroi wrote: One move action every few rounds to poke your head up and back down for air, and the other controls an elemental that they can kill without bothering you since you'll just make another next turn. For free. Over and over again. Using tremorsense to keep track of them. Necklace of Adaptation. If you're always underground, do you really need the natural armor boost to AC? Stay underground forever, and just endlessly poke at your enemies.
By the way, Earth Glide is stupidly good on a geokinetic with Spring Attack. 30 ft. out of the ground, attack with Kinetic Blade/Whip, 30 ft. back into the ground.
The more I look at the Kineticist, the more I think it excels at recurring villain roles. It's just soooo good at skirmishing and hit and run tactics. Perfect for making a party hate an individual. I don't think you can spring attack with blasts, since you can only use blade/whip as part of an "attack action, charge or full attack" and spring attack is it's own separate full round action Kinetic Blade.
On another note, Flyby Attack seems to be an amazing feat for a flying kineticist.
Kinetic blade is ONLY for attack action, full attack action, charge.
Spring attack is none of the above, it is it's own full round action
My Self wrote: Shiroi wrote: Rogues getting a solidly reliable 30ft touch attack that (nobody has said can't) delivers their sneak attack damage. Or permanent mage hand and a non-touch sneak attack deliverer.
Solidly reliable? Please.
This is the Rogue we're talking about. Since it's ranged, you need to be hidden or they need to be flatfooted for you to strike. This isn't going to just happen, it takes a lot of setup. And elemental blasts tend to be a bit noisy and visible, especially if you're gathering power at all.
You'll need an energy Kinetic Blade to get something new out of it (hit against touch AC), which you can't get as an Elemental Annihilator. Which means that you have to stick around long enough for Infusion Specialization so that your Kinetic Blade isn't costing you HP every swing. Which means it's no longer a dip. Three words: At will invisibility.
Yeah but that's more high level than just a "dip".
True you need some way to sneak around the enemy, but skill unlock stealth is some nasty rude mess from what I've seen.
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The wording on flurry stops you from adding sneak to *every hit of that mess* right? I think it does just want to be sure here before I immediately VMC every kineticist ever.
And I do also mean to each separate target once, if that's a different answer. Because 1d6+1/2 con+3d6 sneak+rider effects from sneak and from substances, to a crowd? Rude.
I'm seeing an Aether until the odd level of or past invisibility, UnC Rogue thereafter as a viable multiclass for that reason. The sneak attack you'll almost inevitably pull off will make up your blast damage dice and add cool rider effects, while the flurry does wonky things to your dpr vs crowds if that combo works. In the meantime you're getting skill unlocks for stealth and slight of hand and grabbing some maneuver feats to give you even more penalizing options.
Shiroi wrote: Yeah but that's more high level than just a "dip".
True you need some way to sneak around the enemy, but skill unlock stealth is some nasty rude mess from what I've seen.
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The wording on flurry stops you from adding sneak to *every hit of that mess* right? I think it does just want to be sure here before I immediately VMC every kineticist ever.
And I do also mean to each separate target once, if that's a different answer. Because 1d6+1/2 con+3d6 sneak+rider effects from sneak and from substances, to a crowd? Rude.
I'm seeing an Aether until the odd level of or past invisibility, UnC Rogue thereafter as a viable multiclass for that reason. The sneak attack you'll almost inevitably pull off will make up your blast damage dice and add cool rider effects, while the flurry does wonky things to your dpr vs crowds if that combo works. In the meantime you're getting skill unlocks for stealth and slight of hand and grabbing some maneuver feats to give you even more penalizing options.
from what i can tell about flurry:
each target hit takes damage as a lvl1 kinet:
so 1d6+1+con+misc, or 1d6+1/2con+misc energy
where misc may be sneaks, bonus to damage and etc.
IF you strike the same creature, it doesn't become:
2d6+2+2*con+2*misc
instead it becomes:
2d6+1+con+misc
so, from what i can tell:
each target hit would get hit from sneak (If they qualify for it, i.e. they are flatfooted or denied their dex)
but you can only apply sneak damage to each target max 1/flurry. (so if you had 2 targets and 4 attacks, and divided 3 attacks on one and 1 attack on the other, both would get hit by sneak attack damage, but both only once)
That's what I thought. But that's still a really cool bonus damage with some nasty riders if done right.
By the time invisibility goes online for aether, you could be using force composite to do an invisible flurry of touch attacks to make targets ac 10, with a lot of rude rider effects and a solid handfull of d6 to go with it.
Would the flurry multiple hits effect add to the DC to resist any rider effects from the sneak attack, or just ones from the kineticists inherent effects?
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