I'm trying to find ways of casting Resilient Sphere around myself and a victim, trapping them in an enclosed space with me, whilst us both being protected from the outside forces. If i cast it in melee on me, my CL is high enough that there would be more than enough space for both me and the vic. So i was thinking of ways of getting it off. Simplest would obviously be casting defensively, but what if i stealth up behind him?
Would he be considered ff? Or would he still retain his dex bonus to AC because he's aware of combat but not of me? Would i provoke a regular AoO casting in melee if when i start my turn he is unaware of my presence?
I believe the instant you started casting, you would "exit stealth" and your casting would prompt attacks of opportunity -- I do not believe that spells without metamagic modification while remaining hidden.
The components are verbal and somantic. So if you modify the spell using the silent and still metamagic feats, I'd say you could still remain hidden and cast the spell.
thanks for the swift reply
Looks like casting defensively is really my only option i have access to atm. I dont have access to feats/rods right now
Greater Invisibility?
greater invisibility could work
Quintain, you don't exit stealth until you make an attack. You are not making an attack until that saving throw is rolled or an attack roll is made, both of which occur after the spell is completed.
Quintain, you don't exit stealth until you make an attack. You are not making an attack until that saving throw is rolled or an attack roll is made, both of which occur after the spell is completed.
No, but if you take another action that draws attention to yourself, your opponent gets an automatic reactive Perception check. For example, if you stealth up behind someone and shout "Boo!", you cannot then claim that they cannot turn and look at you because you haven't made an attack yet. That would be ludicrous.
Spellcasting is no different. It's not quiet (though an argument could be made for a silent spell not breaking stealth, but an equal argument could be made that it still allows a new reactive perception check).
Since there is no facing, when you start casting your opponent will be looking at you with a perception check of DC 0 since you're not stealthing anymore due to no cover/concealment.
Now, if you could pull this off with any cover or total concealment, he cannot take the AoO even if he becomes aware of you. Try Invisibility or some such thing. You'll start casting and give yourself away, but with cover or total concealment, he cannot take the AoO.
If you cast an offensive spell, that is the same as attacking somebody as far as invisibility is concerned. The instant you start casting the spell you lose invisibility.
DM_Blake, I wasn't saying that someone can walk up and cast while stealthed without them successfully perceiving them. I am saying that the automatic state change does not occur until the attack occurs.
CampinCarl9127, you do not become visible until you make an attack. You can cast any spell you want but until that spell makes an attack it does not void your invisibility.
You can walk up to someone (while invisible), cast Scorching Ray, and only at the point when you make the attack roll do you become visible. They do not get an AoO because you were invisible (unless they have blindsight or see invisibility or something similar).
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.
Since targeting or designating the area does not occur until the spell is completed, you do not break invisibility until the spell is completed.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
I see the rules you quoted, but that does not lead to your conclusion. All that you quoted is how and when to make decisions about a spell.
Right, they do not get an AoO. But as soon as you cast the spell you are visible. And no, you do not have to make an attack roll or even target anybody to break invisibility. Casting a fireball is an offensive action, and even if you throw it into the middle of an empty wasteland you still lose invisibility.
But it's kind of a moot point, because they won't get an AoO either way.
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Casting a fireball is an offensive action, and even if you throw it into the middle of an empty wasteland you still lose invisibility.
[citation needed]
"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature." Which creature are you attacking in "the middle of an empty wasteland"?
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If you cast an offensive spell, that is the same as attacking somebody as far as invisibility is concerned. The instant you start casting the spell you lose invisibility.
Obviously false or you could never make an attack from stealth.
If you cast an offensive spell, that is the same as attacking somebody as far as invisibility is concerned. The instant you start casting the spell you lose invisibility.Obviously false or you could never make an attack from stealth.
Further to this, my invislble oracle is standing next to the fighter, and also next to a dread wraith who is the fighter's opponent in combat. Seeing the tactical situation, my oracle casts cure critical wounds, using the maximize spell feat, so it's a full round casting time. ("A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.")
Do I become visible or not at the instant of casting?
It obviously depends on the target of the spell, since I could use this same spell to injure the (undead) wraith or heal the fighter. But I don't make that decision until the spell goes off.... which happens after the wraith has had its turn. Since I've not yet attacked the wraith, I'm still invisible during the wraith's turn.
Your opponent still flat-footed and can't AoO.
Would he be considered ff? Or would he still retain his dex bonus to AC because he's aware of combat but not of me? Would i provoke a regular AoO casting in melee if when i start my turn he is unaware of my presence?
This seems a little confusing to me.
Is he flat-footed? Only if it's the start of combat and he has not had a turn yet. If that's the case, don't worry about it, he can't (normally) make an AoO while flat-footed.
"because he's aware of combat" - does this mean there is a battle and this guy is involved in it? If so, and if he has had a turn, then he is definitely not flat-footed anymore. His being unaware of you doesn't change this; the's not flat-footed. However, if this is the case, then you cannot "stealth up behind him" because there is no facing in combat. Since he is in combat and has no facing, he has no "behind him" for you to stealth up to.
Now, to the question I think you're really trying to ask: Can you start your turn with cover and a previously successful Stealth check (this only works if you made a successful Stealth check last round, other wise it definitely fails), use a move action to move adjacent to the guy and cast an offensive spell?
Answer: Mostly yes.
You certainly could do this if you were stabbing him with a dagger instead of casting a spell, and he would be denied his DEX bonus against your dagger attack, and making that dagger attack would automatically end your Stealth after the attack.
Spellcasting is different. It's explicitly not stealthy (you have to speak in a firm voice) and requires line of sight and line of effect for just about everything you cast. Noticing a visible creature and hearing the details of ordinary speech are both DC 0 Perception checks that don't use Stealth for an opposed roll. So when you're spellcasting, the opponent sees you with a DC 0 Perception check. No Stealth.
That said, you don't need LOE or LOS to cast a spell on yourself, so all you need is anything that breaks LOS so you can have Total Concealment or that even partially breaks LOE so you can have Cover, then you can pull this off, even without Stealth.
CampinCarl9127, if you haven't yet turned the spell into an attack then how can you lose invisibility? Until the spell comes into effect those decisions are not made, thus the attack is not made.
If I cast a fireball spell into open space (no creatures) it is not an attack and I do not lose my invisibility as per the rules in the invisibility spell.
A more relevant example is the Create Pit spell.
A) I create pit underneath an enemy, I lose invisibility.
B) I create pit in open space in front of an enemy, he is not affected. I do not lose invisibility.
The spell does not determine if I lose invisibility, whether or not it affects the target in a harmful way does and THAT is not determined until I complete the spell.
If you think a fireball that affects nobody is still an attack, please show who it is attacking. Until it attacks someone it is not going to void the invisibility spell as per the invisibility spell's rules.
I didn't realize that the invisibility spell was sentient and could detect if you were targeting somebody or not. By your logic, a spellcaster could fly over a city and rain fireballs while invisible for as long as he wants as long as he doesn't actually hit a creature.
If you cast an offensive spell, that is the same as attacking somebody as far as invisibility is concerned. The instant you start casting the spell you lose invisibility.Obviously false or you could never make an attack from stealth.Further to this, my invislble oracle is standing next to the fighter, and also next to a dread wraith who is the fighter's opponent in combat. Seeing the tactical situation, my oracle casts cure critical wounds, using the maximize spell feat, so it's a full round casting time. ("A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.")
Do I become visible or not at the instant of casting?
It obviously depends on the target of the spell, since I could use this same spell to injure the (undead) wraith or heal the fighter. But I don't make that decision until the spell goes off.... which happens after the wraith has had its turn. Since I've not yet attacked the wraith, I'm still invisible during the wraith's turn.
That in no way prevents you from making an attack from stealth.
Since the spell has offensive and non-offensive options, the invisibility would be broken once you committed to the offensive action. It's an exception to spells that are purely offensive or spells that effects have to be chosen at casting.
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And the big bag full of stealth worms spills everywhere.
I recommend against trying to cast spells stealthily as you are likely to spark the same sort of argument at your table as you just did here on the forums. A tactic that causes players to argue over the rules is a bad tactic, unless your goal is to not have fun playing the game.
I don't think it's that controversial. At least nowhere near as bad as the 2 hour/level summoned monsters thread going on.
As somebody who plays a lot of casters, I love casting from stealth. Invisibility and then summon monster/battlefield control spells is a safe way to influence combat.
I'm really enjoying this discussion. I like having a medium where players can calmly debate rules without getting heated about it.
As LazarX says, your questions do not make any sense.
Edit: For that matter, that takes care of the maximized cure spell situation proposed above as well.
You have led me astray LazarX!
Yes, I believe I stand corrected. At some point I'm going to make a blockbuster wizard and rain hell on unattended buildings, watching the peasants scramble to understand what's going on. I just hope I don't hit any bugs in the building!
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Ooooh actually the rabbit whole goes even deeper. Imagine you are in combat and there is a flesh golem. You are invisible and cast call lightning on it, does that break invisibility? After all, call lightning is clearly an attack spell.
Well if you are the person who built it and KNOW that electricity heals flesh golems then I don't see how that is any different from casting cure spells on a person. It shouldn't break invis.
On the other hand if your character is fighting the golem and just failed it's knowledge check to ID it then clearly it was intended as an attack and invis is broken.
New scenario: you cast call lightning while invisible as part of a bluff check (gods are angry!!). You target your lightning in an empty column: If the air is empty then nobody is saving vs it and invis should remain intact. But what if you failed your perception check and there just so happened to be a bird flying by? Well unknowingly you hurt something therefore invisibility is broken
Same spell, only difference was intentions and effects. Sure it breaks suspension of disbelief to assume that the invis spell is sentient and knows not only what you MEANT to happen but also what ACTUALLY happened but anything else gets too complicated way too fast
Edit: For even more fun, replace the bird with a stealthed rogue. Rogue sees the lightning, barrel rolls out of the way, and takes no damage. You still turn visible because he had to save.
I didn't realize that the invisibility spell was sentient and could detect if you were targeting somebody or not. By your logic, a spellcaster could fly over a city and rain fireballs while invisible for as long as he wants as long as he doesn't actually hit a creature.
You understand what the rules say exactly.
I didn't realize that the invisibility spell was sentient and could detect if you were targeting somebody or not. By your logic, a spellcaster could fly over a city and rain fireballs while invisible for as long as he wants as long as he doesn't actually hit a creature.You understand what the rules say exactly.
Don't worry. I can always rule that the fireball caught a microorganism in the blast, dropping invisibility ;)
Huh. ....So you are saying if in some hypothetical scenario where you had to make it look like the party rogue died, you could have the invisible wizard stand by while the rogue pretended to mis-activate a wand. The wizard then casts fireball (he knows the rogue has improved evasion and can live through it) and can stay invis because the rogue was his friend and not his foe?
Yeah, things like the golem example and the rogue example are what make me rule in favor of "Any blatantly offensive spell drops invisibility, regardless of intent or outcome".
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Don't worry. I can always rule that the fireball caught a microorganism in the blast, dropping invisibility ;)I didn't realize that the invisibility spell was sentient and could detect if you were targeting somebody or not. By your logic, a spellcaster could fly over a city and rain fireballs while invisible for as long as he wants as long as he doesn't actually hit a creature.You understand what the rules say exactly.
Definition of a dick move. If you are going to house rule then be up front about it. Same if you re going to cheat, which is what that 'ruling' would be.
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Here's how it would work, assuming a 1v1 scenario for simplicity's sake:
Step 2: Get close enough to the target. If you must move, determine if you would still have Cover/Concealment from the enemy - if you do, you can maintain your previous roll as long as you move at half speed. If you don't, make another Stealth check against their passive Perception - if you pass, you may move up to the enemy and "make an attack" (Note: Stealth rules do not cover using this action for anything other than an attack. Ask your GM if they allow other standard actions). Failure means you are spotted.
Step 3: Cast your spell. This action starts the Surprise Round. Since the enemy was not previously aware of you, they do not get to act in the surprise round, but you have a standard action - just enough time to cast Resilient Sphere.
Invisibility Disclaimer: Note that Resilient Sphere targets one creature and creates a wall at a set distance around that creature from all angles. Technically one could argue that, by RAW, it isn't an "area spell" and thus doesn't break Invisibility. Your GM may rule one way or another, but regardless of whether or not this breaks Invisibility, you still move on to the next step.
Step 4: Determine if you still have Cover/Concealment from your enemy. Some abilities and spells, such as Hide in Plain Sight and Greater Invisibility, would allow this. Others, such as darkness vs a foe without darkvision, would break stealth after your attack/spell/etc and allow you to stealth again with a move action on your next turn. If you still have Cover or Concealment, the enemy cannot retaliate.
Step 5: If you no longer have Cover/Concealment, ask your DM if the target has Combat Reflexes - without it, you cannot make an Attack of Opportunity during the surprise round, period.
Step 6: If you have lost Cover/Concealment from your enemy, the enemy has Combat Reflexes, and you are within the enemy's threatened area when you cast the spell, ask your GM if your Stealth breaks when you start casting or if it breaks after you cast the spell. As far as I know the Stealth rules do not cover this possibility as it is a corner case and public opinion is divided over the answer.
No reason to be so rude thorin. You can make your point without sarcasm or blatant accusations. The only thing I consider a dick move is invoking subtle rule exploitations to cause thousands of gold worth of damage while being basically invulnerable. If you want to do that, I'll invoke GM powers and strike you with an adamantium lightning bolt.
Or, if that's too much of a dick move, you can grow up and be polite when you're discussing a ruling.
If you are going to house rule then be up front about it.
Any blatantly offensive spell drops invisibility, regardless of intent or outcome.
Try to read the whole thread next time.
P.S. Any player that thinks somebody would legitimately rule in microorganisms as part of the battlefield is pretty amusing.
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6) You fireball what you think is a tree, but it's actually a treant. You stay invisible.
I disagree with this one, I'd go with counting both as attacks:
- you think there's a victim- there is a victim, even if you don't know that
Yeah, the spell is a bit all-knowing. If you suspect there's an unseen enemy in the area, you could do the invisibility/fireball litmus test.
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No reason to be so rude thorin. You can make your point without sarcasm or blatant accusations. The only thing I consider a dick move is invoking subtle rule exploitations to cause thousands of gold worth of damage while being basically invulnerable. If you want to do that, I'll invoke GM powers and strike you with an adamantium lightning bolt.
The Invisibility spell lists clear examples of causing property damage without breaking it (like cutting down a rope bridge with people on it). It's not a subtle rules exploit, it's doing something that the spell very obviously allows.
You can use Invisibility to be a coward and a jerk at the same time. This is not a design mixup.
Yeah, things like the golem example and the rogue example are what make me rule in favor of "Any blatantly offensive spell drops invisibility, regardless of intent or outcome".
I tend to agree with you here, CampinCarl19127. And if this were the House-rules/Homebrew section, you'd be fine. But for the Rules forum, there are things that don't break invisibility no matter how much I disagree with it.
I know this is going to rattle the hornets nest but what about stealth and psychic casting, could the OP accomplish his or her goal from stealth with a psychic spell? (i.e. A successful stealth check and cover the turn before and then a move action to get close and a standard to silently and still focus on casting the spell?) Actually, would this be an, admittedly more action intensive, option to avoid the +10 to concentration checks?
Yes, I admitted fault and that I would simply house rule it otherwise in my own games. I think the RAW here are too exploitable.
I don't know where everyone is getting this "reactive Perception check" idea from - casting a spell with a verbal component requires speaking out in a strong, clear voice. Once you cast it the enemy will know someone is nearby. Whether they know where you are or not depends on whether you retain your method of concealment or cover once you cast the spell. That still doesn't change the fact that you are getting a surprise round for sneaking up on the enemy - you could spend your action yelling at the enemy and banging pots together loudly, but as long as they didn't know you were there before you do it you still get your surprise round.
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@Avoron: I hadn't caught the "invisible character's perceptions". That creates some wiggle room, but,
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
The text leaves open the door to counting more than the enumerated things as attacks. The general principle reads to me that "if it causes harm, it's certainly an attack". Unless the caster has good reason to believe the fireball won't harm the treant, it's an attack - even though he didn't know about the treant. "There turned out to be a critter there and I roasted it." That's an attack.
I'm taking a stern union here of two sets - things the caster thinks are direct attacks even if they're not, and things that he'd consider direct attacks if he knew enough about the situation. Either one is enough to break the Invisibility.
Fifth Printing to Sixth Printing (v5.0) - ZIP File
* Page 106—In the Stealth skill, in the Check section, add the following paragraph after the third paragraph:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
For the OP, this works. The enemy knows spellcasting is going on nearby, but not where. The enemy does not get an AoO, does not force a defensive casting check, and does not get dex to AC. [However, the foe is not flat footed from this.]
After the spell is cast, the enemy can react.
/cevah