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I am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
Bluntly put to you also.
Prove it...in the rules...not your opinion, but rules in ink form a book that states that Flying is a physical movement.
So, Dex=0 really has no bearing on being able to fly, other than making it more difficult to make the skill check when it is required. Someone with enough skill ranks and level/2 bonus can fly around and hover just as agile as any hummingbird.
So why do people keep bringing it up? Obviously you don't _need_ your arms and legs to fly, as demonstrated by armless and legless flying creatures, as well as humanoids who have had their arms and legs chopped off.
And, since you can fly without arms and legs, then just what physical activity is flying supposed to depend on? The ability to wiggle your body? Blow really heavily in one direction or the other?
The correct answer seems to be 'none', as in there is no physical activity required to fly using the fly spell.
The correct answer is whatever is needed to control your body in flight. Here's a good example of what you can do in unpowered flight with a body that does nothing for you so far as flying is concerned.
http://www.vladiball.org/index6.htmThis should give you an idea of how much your limbs and weight can interfere with your flight if you don't know how to use them.
...Correcting my skill bonus math doesn't make you correct in regards to what Fly can do, itThe same way any other character uses their dex score to fly. If they are flying at speed in a straight line or only making 45 degree turns, they move. If they try anything more advanced, they roll a d20, add their Fly modifier (dex mod + skill ranks + class skill bonus), and then make their maneuver (or fail) depending on the result. It's like you've never played this game we're discussing before.Sure they have a dex score, how are they using it to fly.Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?Because in order to use an advanced flight maneuver, even when magically flying, you must still make a dexterity-based Fly check. Flying at normal speed in a straight line doesn't change that. If it is physical when you perform an advanced maneuver, it is physical when you fly in a straight line at your fly speed.
They still have a dex score and must make dex-based fly checks to perform any sort of complex flight maneuver. Please stop conflating lore and fluff with game rules. They are not the same and often do not reconcile. That is why we must suspend our disbelief when we play these types of games.
This reminds me of some worshippers of Zon Kuthon. They amputate both arms and legs, then move around via the fly spell. How does that work?Fly does not = dex mod+ rank + class mod
Fly does = ability mod + rank + class mod + additional modifiersYou seem to forget that. There is a size modifier, there is a maneuverability modifier, there is a trait modifier, feat modifier, and of course a magical modifier.
In fact you can completely take dexterity out of the equation by using wisdom in its place. Wow!
Being able to use an attribute modifier in place of another is just the games way of allowing certain individuals to cater to their strengths instead of pidgeon holing them. That in no way changes the basic premise of the rules however. It is a straight up numeric swap for ease of mechanical sake.
It would be like stating because one archtype uses a different stat, they aren't sorcerers anymore.
It is a game mechanic that explicitly states something is happening.
Unlike Fly being stated to be purely mental.
That's a bold claim. Care to back it up with rules?Telekinesis is a transmutation spell just like flight.
So is Beast Shape, which can allow you to get wings. Also Cloud Shape, which transform you into a cloud that can move by wind. Also Air Walk. All of these are spells that actually allows you to move through the air, which Telekinesis doesn't.
The support for flight being applied telekinesis just because there's a spell with that name in the same school is as heavy as for it being a snow shape/control weather effect, that you cause very localized snowfall around you and then transmute that snow into something solid enough to grab hold and launch yourself into the air.
It's just pure, unfounded speculation. Just as unfounded as growing wings.
Which of these methods does the fly spell use to create lift? You can't say magic, because magic isn't physical.
Plenty of magical things are physical.
You CAN'T control Fly! It's raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaandom!
No, there's just no controllable component to it, just like with Bull's Strength or Beast Shape or Protection from Evil.
I am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
Bluntly put to you also.
Prove it...in the rules...not your opinion, but rules in ink form a book that states that Flying is a physical movement.
I have provided, multiple times, the exact section of the book that addresses this (it's under the Fly skill entry, where all the rules for flying are) and explained how it addresses this. Fly is a dex-based skill. Making complex maneuvers while Flying requires a dex-based skill check. Once more, do you think that flying is purely mental until you need to make a check? Because that's absurd.
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Which of these methods does the fly spell use to create lift? You can't say magic, because magic isn't physical.Plenty of magical things are physical.
No, there's just no controllable component to it, just like with Bull's Strength or Beast Shape or Protection from Evil.
You CAN'T control Fly! It's raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaandom!
To further expound on this, when you cast fly on a target you are giving that target a fly speed of 60 (with caveats about running, encumbrance, and worn armor). That is literally the only effect the spell has. Once you are under the effect, for the duration of the effect, you have a fly speed. It does not say the target uses his mind to control the flight. Since it grants a fly speed, it only follows the rules for flight, which are listed under the Fly skill.
That's it, nothing more, nothing less.
Now, we ask: how do creatures with a fly speed fly? They are allowed to move up to their fly speed in a round while moving in a straight line. In order to turn at an angle greater than 45 degrees they make a dexterity-based check and sacrifice 5 feet of movement. In order to ascend at a greater than 45 degree angle they must make a dexterity-based skill check. In order to hover or to move at less than half speed, they must make a dexterity-based skill check. All of these actions are move actions.
Now, let's look at paralysis:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions...
Based on this information, we have the following rules:
Is a move action using fly speed a purely mental action? No.
Is flying a move action? Yes. It is explicitly stated.
Can a character who is paralyzed move or act? No.
Can a flying character who is paralyzed move or act? No. By the transitive properties of flying being a move action, and paralysis preventing movement, you cannot move while paralyzed even when flying.
Still keep in mind that there are Move Actions that are no physical movement but do something else
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Still keep in mind that there are Move Actions that are no physical movement but do something else
Flying is not one of those. Furthermore, paralysis specifically prevents moving or acting. You cannot take any action of any type while paralyzed unless it is purely mental or it has a specific exception to the rules outlined in paralysis.
Now, let's look at paralysis:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions...Based on this information, we have the following rules:
Is a move action using fly speed a purely mental action? No.
Is flying a move action? Yes. It is explicitly stated.
Can a character who is paralyzed move or act? No.
You are taking the statement "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move" to mean "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to take any move actions". That is not the only possible interpretation. It's not how I interpret it. I see it as saying "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move its limbs". I can see how you might have arrived at your interpretation, but I don't agree with it.
You are taking the statement "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move" to mean "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to take any move actions". That is not the only possible interpretation. It's not how I interpret it. I see it as saying "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move its limbs". I can see how you might have arrived at your interpretation, but I don't agree with it.Now, let's look at paralysis:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions...Based on this information, we have the following rules:
Is a move action using fly speed a purely mental action? No.
Is flying a move action? Yes. It is explicitly stated.
Can a character who is paralyzed move or act? No.
You don't have to agree with it for it to be correct. In a game system like Pathfinder it is important to have a common language. The common language use of the term move in the Paralysis rules is not a fluffy descriptor saying you can't move your limbs, it is referring to the game rules of movement.
What you are doing is adding words to the paralysis description to make it more specific. This is wrong. The rule is general and should be applied generally. What does it mean to be unable to move, in the most general and inclusive sense? You pretty much can't do anything. You can't move your limbs, you can't wiggle your fingers, you can't blink, and you certainly can't take a move action. You cannot add words to the rule in order to interpret it in a way that you want.
Even if your analysis were correct (it isn't), it prevents you from acting. Flying is a move action. You are changing the meaning of game terms to suit your interpretation, which is wrong.
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Still keep in mind that there are Move Actions that are no physical movement but do something else
Yes, and such actions are always explicitly stated in the rules where applicable, not left to be imagined.
You don't have to agree with it for it to be correct. In a game system like Pathfinder it is important to have a common language. The common language use of the term move in the Paralysis rules is not a fluffy descriptor saying you can't move your limbs, it is referring to the game rules of movement.
What you are doing is adding words to the paralysis description to make it more specific. This is wrong. The rule is general and should be applied generally. You cannot add words to the rule in order to interpret it in a way that you want.
Even if your analysis is correct (it isn't), it prevents you from acting. Flying is a move action. You are changing the meaning of game terms to suit your interpretation, which is wrong.
Well, sadly, that means we can't even agree to disagree! There's no room for discussion or debate when you view your interpretation as correct and any alternative interpretation as incorrect. Nonetheless, I'd like to thank you for the ideas you've put forward, which have helped me to examine my understanding of this area.
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You are taking the statement "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move" to mean "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to take any move actions". That is not the only possible interpretation. It's not how I interpret it. I see it as saying "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move its limbs". I can see how you might have arrived at your interpretation, but I don't agree with it.Now, let's look at paralysis:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions...Based on this information, we have the following rules:
Is a move action using fly speed a purely mental action? No.
Is flying a move action? Yes. It is explicitly stated.
Can a character who is paralyzed move or act? No.
Adding extra words or reading into it is also as much of an issue, and part of why people would not agree with your interpretation.
The real crux of the issue is the purely mental aspect. The game doesn't make any mention of the spell being so, and refers to physical checks when using it. To me, this shows it to at least not be purely mental. And yes, while it doesn't say it is physical, it most assuredly doesn't say it is purely mental. And that is what we need (logically and rules wise) to get it to work while under the paralyzed status.
If I fly without making complex moves, I don't do Fly skill checks at all. What happens now?
Well, sadly, that means we can't even agree to disagree! There's no room for discussion or debate when you view your interpretation as correct and any alternative interpretation as incorrect. Nonetheless, I'd like to thank you for the ideas you've put forward, which have helped me to examine my understanding of this area.You don't have to agree with it for it to be correct. In a game system like Pathfinder it is important to have a common language. The common language use of the term move in the Paralysis rules is not a fluffy descriptor saying you can't move your limbs, it is referring to the game rules of movement.
What you are doing is adding words to the paralysis description to make it more specific. This is wrong. The rule is general and should be applied generally. You cannot add words to the rule in order to interpret it in a way that you want.
Even if your analysis is correct (it isn't), it prevents you from acting. Flying is a move action. You are changing the meaning of game terms to suit your interpretation, which is wrong.
Let's get this straight: I'm not interpreting anything. The rules don't need interpretation. They are very clear. Paralysis has a general statement that it prevents moving or acting. As a general statement, it can only be taken to mean that it prevents all moving and acting, except for "purely mental actions."
Fly (the spell) only grants a Fly speed. It doesn't make the target float. It doesn't make the target levitate. It doesn't let the target fly with their mind. It grants a Fly speed.
RAW, flying with a fly speed is a movement action. It does not matter one lick how you control it, because it is still the same basic movement action. RAW, you cannot move when paralyzed, thus you cannot fly while paralyzed.
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If I fly without making complex moves, I don't do Fly skill checks at all. What happens now?
Logical fallacy.
"Because I don't fly in such a way as to need to make the check, means the check is irrelevant."
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ok how does a magic carpet fly then? if it is not magic propulsion that has nothing to do with a physical stat then HOW!? a magic carpet is an inanimate object with no strength score or dex score, Yet it can move up, down, all around with not checks at all.
"each carpet has its own command word to activate it—if the device is within voice range, the command word activates it, whether the speaker is on the rug or not. The carpet is then controlled by spoken directions."
once you get on the carpet and you want to make a complex maneuver, like doing a 180 turn, then sure you have to do a dex check to succeed but until then the command forward will propel you magically without any physical anything, you can be paralyzed, sleeping, dead, the carpet will keep going forward, and if there was a way, oh say a spell that projected your thoughts to sound you could even control the carpet wile paralyzed, you wouldn't be able to do complex maneuvers because you can not perform the dex check required, but moving forward, slight turns, all perfectly fine.
so now the question becomes is the magic effect that makes a magic carpet fly the same effect that makes you fly. HINT its the same spell!
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ok how does a magic carpet fly then? if it is not magic propulsion that has nothing to do with a physical stat then HOW!? a magic carpet is an inanimate object with no strength score or dex score, Yet it can move up, down, all around with not checks at all.
"each carpet has its own command word to activate it—if the device is within voice range, the command word activates it, whether the speaker is on the rug or not. The carpet is then controlled by spoken directions."
once you get on the carpet and you want to make a complex maneuver, like doing a 180 turn, then sure you have to do a dex check to succeed but until then the command forward will propel you magically without any physical anything, you can be paralyzed, sleeping, dead, the carpet will keep going forward, and if there was a way, oh say a spell that projected your thoughts to sound you could even control the carpet wile paralyzed, you wouldn't be able to do complex maneuvers because you can not perform the dex check required, but moving forward, slight turns, all perfectly fine.
so now the question becomes is the magic effect that makes a magic carpet fly the same effect that makes you fly. HINT its the same spell!
A magic carpet is not a PC or an NPC and is not subject to the same rules. Neither is a broom, nor any other wondrous item that can fly. Please stop making these asinine comparisons.
If I fly without making complex moves, I don't do Fly skill checks at all. What happens now?Logical fallacy.
"Because I don't fly in such a way as to need to make the check, means the check is irrelevant."
I'm much smarter than this, please.
"Because I don't fly in such a way as to need to make the check, means the check not strictly necessary or obviously intrinsic."
ok how does a magic carpet fly then? if it is not magic propulsion that has nothing to do with a physical stat then HOW!? a magic carpet is an inanimate object with no strength score or dex score, Yet it can move up, down, all around with not checks at all.
"each carpet has its own command word to activate it—if the device is within voice range, the command word activates it, whether the speaker is on the rug or not. The carpet is then controlled by spoken directions."
once you get on the carpet and you want to make a complex maneuver, like doing a 180 turn, then sure you have to do a dex check to succeed but until then the command forward will propel you magically without any physical anything, you can be paralyzed, sleeping, dead, the carpet will keep going forward, and if there was a way, oh say a spell that projected your thoughts to sound you could even control the carpet wile paralyzed, you wouldn't be able to do complex maneuvers because you can not perform the dex check required, but moving forward, slight turns, all perfectly fine.
so now the question becomes is the magic effect that makes a magic carpet fly the same effect that makes you fly. HINT its the same spell!
Says you. But again we have an item, which is different than the spell. Apple meet Orange.
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ok how does a magic carpet fly then? if it is not magic propulsion that has nothing to do with a physical stat then HOW!? a magic carpet is an inanimate object with no strength score or dex score, Yet it can move up, down, all around with not checks at all.
"each carpet has its own command word to activate it—if the device is within voice range, the command word activates it, whether the speaker is on the rug or not. The carpet is then controlled by spoken directions."
once you get on the carpet and you want to make a complex maneuver, like doing a 180 turn, then sure you have to do a dex check to succeed but until then the command forward will propel you magically without any physical anything, you can be paralyzed, sleeping, dead, the carpet will keep going forward, and if there was a way, oh say a spell that projected your thoughts to sound you could even control the carpet wile paralyzed, you wouldn't be able to do complex maneuvers because you can not perform the dex check required, but moving forward, slight turns, all perfectly fine.
so now the question becomes is the magic effect that makes a magic carpet fly the same effect that makes you fly. HINT its the same spell!
Magic items don't necessarily emulate the spells used in their construction to the letter.
The Circlet of Persuasion is an example that springs to mind.
When you fly using the Fly spell, you follow the rules given by the Fly spell.
When you use a magic item that lets you fly, you follow the rules given by that particular item.
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another point of order to separate magical flight from the physical aspect, you are able to hustle unlimited wile flying (From the fly spell, and overland flight)
normally "A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued."
magical flight doesn't have this restriction so the flight itself must not take a toll on your body physically. meaning there is nothing physical about the way you are flying.
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another point of order to separate magical flight from the physical aspect, you are able to hustle unlimited wile flying (From the fly spell, and overland flight)
normally "A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued."
magical flight doesn't have this restriction so the flight itself must not take a toll on your body physically. meaning there is nothing physical about the way you are flying.
Only Overland Flight allows this, which is a higher level spell than standard Fly.
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another point of order to separate magical flight from the physical aspect, you are able to hustle unlimited wile flying (From the fly spell, and overland flight)
normally "A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued."
magical flight doesn't have this restriction so the flight itself must not take a toll on your body physically. meaning there is nothing physical about the way you are flying.
Overland Flight: "(a forced march still requires Constitution checks)."
You're cherry picking.
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ok how does a magic carpet fly then? if it is not magic propulsion that has nothing to do with a physical stat then HOW!? a magic carpet is an inanimate object with no strength score or dex score, Yet it can move up, down, all around with not checks at all.
"each carpet has its own command word to activate it—if the device is within voice range, the command word activates it, whether the speaker is on the rug or not. The carpet is then controlled by spoken directions."
once you get on the carpet and you want to make a complex maneuver, like doing a 180 turn, then sure you have to do a dex check to succeed but until then the command forward will propel you magically without any physical anything, you can be paralyzed, sleeping, dead, the carpet will keep going forward, and if there was a way, oh say a spell that projected your thoughts to sound you could even control the carpet wile paralyzed, you wouldn't be able to do complex maneuvers because you can not perform the dex check required, but moving forward, slight turns, all perfectly fine.
so now the question becomes is the magic effect that makes a magic carpet fly the same effect that makes you fly. HINT its the same spell!
Magic items don't necessarily emulate the spells used in their construction to the letter.
The Circlet of Persuasion is an example that springs to mind.
When you fly using the Fly spell, you follow the rules given by the Fly spell.
When you use a magic item that lets you fly, you follow the rules given by that particular item.
Circlet of Persuasion
that item perfectly emulates the spell, its a bonus for cha based checks not a stat bonus to effect spells and DCs and class abilities like headband of CHa is, the fact that its a +3 and not a +4 is the only difference, they used the magic item creation rules for pricing and the numerical value. "bonus squared x1000" for stats, but because it is a bonus for checks and not a stat increase it is /2 which gives you a 4,500 GP price. that was a terrible example of a spell meets item. it proves my point more then yours, and i just showed you how to price magic items. all from the CRB, and you said i didn't even read it...|
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another point of order to separate magical flight from the physical aspect, you are able to hustle unlimited wile flying (From the fly spell, and overland flight)
normally "A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued."
magical flight doesn't have this restriction so the flight itself must not take a toll on your body physically. meaning there is nothing physical about the way you are flying.
Overland Flight: "(a forced march still requires Constitution checks)."
You're cherry picking.
mental fatigue is a real thing... constitution helps with that, try staying up 24 hours without even doing anything physically you still get tired.
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Magic items don't necessarily emulate the spells used in their construction to the letter.
The Circlet of Persuasion is an example that springs to mind.
When you fly using the Fly spell, you follow the rules given by the Fly spell.
When you use a magic item that lets you fly, you follow the rules given by that particular item.
Circlet of Persuasion
that item perfectly emulates the spell
If it perfectly emulated the spell, it would give you a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma. I can't believe you would argue this point. It really boggles the mind.
mental fatigue is a real thing... constitution helps with that, try staying up 24 hours without even doing anything physically you still get tired.Overland Flight: "(a forced march still requires Constitution checks)."
You're cherry picking.
Puh-lease. Forced march rules have absolutely nothing to do with mental fatigue. It causes physical harm for crying out loud. Also, the damage can start as early as 9 hours into your activity cycle. Mental fatigue from that? From an activity that "requires only as much concentration as walking"?
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If it perfectly emulated the spell, it would give you a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma. I can't believe you would argue this point. It really boggles the mind.Magic items don't necessarily emulate the spells used in their construction to the letter.
The Circlet of Persuasion is an example that springs to mind.
When you fly using the Fly spell, you follow the rules given by the Fly spell.
When you use a magic item that lets you fly, you follow the rules given by that particular item.
Circlet of Persuasion
that item perfectly emulates the spell
wow seriously.. you ignored my entire post.. the item perfectly emulates the spell effect, the numerical difference if from a pricing standpoint... this is asinine.
you use the stupid spell how ever you want and i will use it how ever i want, arguing with you about this pointless, you don't want to see it any other way then your own, there are those of us who agree on how i use it, we have been adamant on giving many examples on why we see it our way (you promptly ignored what we said and basically stated "nope your wrong, go read the CRB". you have given one example, the skill fly, which according to you is the all encompassing no exceptions rules for flying everything has to fit under its wings, nothing can be left for interpretation or argument even when there are examples that don't work with it.
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Puh-lease. Forced march rules have absolutely nothing to do with mental fatigue. It causes physical harm for crying out loud. Also, the damage can start as early as 9 hours into your activity cycle. Mental fatigue from that? From an activity that "requires only as much concentration as walking"?mental fatigue is a real thing... constitution helps with that, try staying up 24 hours without even doing anything physically you still get tired.Overland Flight: "(a forced march still requires Constitution checks)."
You're cherry picking.
Driving a car for 8 hours straight is tiring, and you do nothing physical, not even walking...
wow seriously.. you ignored my entire post.. the item perfectly emulates the spell effect, the numerical difference if from a pricing standpoint... this is asinine.
I ignored in much the same manner as you ignored what it means for one thing to perfectly emulate another thing.
you use the stupid spell how ever you want and i will use it how ever i want, arguing with you about this pointless, you don't want to see it any other way then your own, there are those of us who agree on how i use it, we have been adamant on giving many examples on why we see it our way (you promptly ignored what we said and basically stated "nope your wrong, go read the CRB". you have given one example, the skill fly, which according to you is the all encompassing no exceptions rules for flying everything has to fit under its wings, nothing can be left for interpretation or argument even when there are examples that don't work with it.
Sure.
Driving a car for 8 hours straight is tiring, and you do nothing physical, not even walking...Puh-lease. Forced march rules have absolutely nothing to do with mental fatigue. It causes physical harm for crying out loud. Also, the damage can start as early as 9 hours into your activity cycle. Mental fatigue from that? From an activity that "requires only as much concentration as walking"?mental fatigue is a real thing... constitution helps with that, try staying up 24 hours without even doing anything physically you still get tired.Overland Flight: "(a forced march still requires Constitution checks)."
You're cherry picking.
Yep, but driving for another few hours still won't result in the same physical damage as a few punches to the face. Forced marching is physical exhaustion. I'm sorry that this destroys your argument that overland flight is not physically taxing, but it is what it is.
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Yep, but driving for another few hours still won't result in the same physical damage as a few punches to the face. Forced marching is physical exhaustion. I'm sorry that this destroys your argument that overland flight is not physically taxing, but it is what it is.Driving a car for 8 hours straight is tiring, and you do nothing physical, not even walking...Puh-lease. Forced march rules have absolutely nothing to do with mental fatigue. It causes physical harm for crying out loud. Also, the damage can start as early as 9 hours into your activity cycle. Mental fatigue from that? From an activity that "requires only as much concentration as walking"?mental fatigue is a real thing... constitution helps with that, try staying up 24 hours without even doing anything physically you still get tired.Overland Flight: "(a forced march still requires Constitution checks)."
You're cherry picking.
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it doesn't destroy my argument at all, we just have different view points on aspects of the game. you interpret them your way i will do it my way, I like my way better then yours, so I am not going to change it. All the rules in the game are up for interpretation and any you don't like you can change, its one of the first things written in the CRB, which i read, I also lost any kind of respect for you after that little line of yours "come back when you've read the CRB" that doesnt add anything to your argument and shows your true colors as a person. you have fun continuing this thread and then other and being condescending to everyone, because that is how you win arguments. you keep saying your not being condescending but when multiple people say you are, maybe you should think about that.
Yep, but driving for another few hours still won't result in the same physical damage as a few punches to the face. Forced marching is physical exhaustion. I'm sorry that this destroys your argument that overland flight is not physically taxing, but it is what it is.Driving a car for 8 hours straight is tiring, and you do nothing physical, not even walking...Puh-lease. Forced march rules have absolutely nothing to do with mental fatigue. It causes physical harm for crying out loud. Also, the damage can start as early as 9 hours into your activity cycle. Mental fatigue from that? From an activity that "requires only as much concentration as walking"?mental fatigue is a real thing... constitution helps with that, try staying up 24 hours without even doing anything physically you still get tired.Overland Flight: "(a forced march still requires Constitution checks)."
You're cherry picking.
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it doesn't destroy my argument at all, we just have different view points on aspects of the game. you interpret them your way i will do it my way, I like my way better then yours, so I am not going to change it. All the rules in the game are up for interpretation and any you don't like you can change, its one of the first things written in the CRB, which i read, I also lost any kind of respect for you after that little line of yours "come back when you've read the CRB" that doesnt add anything to your argument and shows your true colors as a person. you have fun continuing this thread and then other and being condescending to everyone, because that is how you win arguments. you keep saying your not being condescending but when multiple people say you are, maybe you should think about that.
I hate to tell you you're wrong again, but here goes: "You're wrong again." I never said any such things as the bolded parts to anyone.
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I hate to tell you you're wrong again, but here goes: "You're wrong again." I never said any such things as the bolded parts to...
You have no authority to tell me i am wrong, you are not a Game dev who wrote the rules or a GM at my table, i will play it my way. I do not agree with your interpretations of the rules. that is all this is. Interpretations. Get off your high horse. I am not wrong you are not wrong. Not until james jacob comes and says how he actually intend for the rules to read then and only then can HE say who is right and wrong on how HIS rules are supposed to read. and even then we can choose to use our own rules for our home games. so screw you and "your wrong" arguments, i have not stated that sentenced once to you or any of your "Followers on this pont" i have stated "this is how i see it and this is why" and gave an example but never just said to you "your wrong" because you don't agree with me on how i read the rules. THAT IS CONDESCENDING!
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it doesn't destroy my argument at all, we just have different view points on aspects of the game. you interpret them your way i will do it my way, I like my way better then yours, so I am not going to change it. All the rules in the game are up for interpretation and any you don't like you can change, its one of the first things written in the CRB, which i read, I also lost any kind of respect for you after that little line of yours "come back when you've read the CRB" that doesnt add anything to your argument and shows your true colors as a person. you have fun continuing this thread and then other and being condescending to everyone, because that is how you win arguments. you keep saying your not being condescending but when multiple people say you are, maybe you should think about that.
I'm the one who suggested you read the CRB, because in the post that I was responding to, the one you wrote, you directly contradicted the CRB. I also didn't say, "Come back when you've read the CRB." I suggested that you read the CRB before posting about rules-related matters, because it appeared to me that you hadn't.
I'm also the one people have called out as condescending. In that regard, well, I can't help it if you find the truth condescending. I have a way of speaking and writing that is short and to the point, or, as some may say, blunt. My wife hates it and sometimes it makes her cry. Sometimes it can come off as rude, crass, or condescending, but it is always to drive home my point, not to insult anyone. If you've been offended by what I have written then I apologise, but that does not change my stance on a damn thing in regards to this conversation.
And finally, I'll say this: I was trying my best to be polite and not be as blunt as I normally am, until alexd1976 responded to a well-thought-out and reasonable post of mine with the words "blah blah blah." Nothing screams immaturity more than sticking your fingers in your ears when you don't like what you're hearing.
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You have no authority to tell me i am wrong
I hate to tell you you're wrong again, but here goes: "You're wrong again." I never said any such things as the bolded parts to...
I have every authority to tell you you're wrong when you falsely attribute things to me that I never said.
I'll still insist that you're wrong about Overland Flight not being physically taxing. It takes no dev to debunk that. It causes physical damage if you go on long enough. Are you telling me with a straight face that suffering physical damage is not physically taxing?
Staying awake for extended periods of time can cause physical damage to your body, you don't need to take a punch or to fall down for you to sustain physical damage
The damage taken from a forced march does not come from staying awake for an extended period of time. It comes from pushing your body to the limit of what it can do. I know people who have broken bones (not just minor stress fractures, either) from running too much. It happens.
What you are talking about also has a rule. When you go without sleep in Pathfinder, you generally gain the fatigued condition unless you have a specific exception.
That is how everything works in PFRPG (and most any gaming system): apply rules generally then apply exceptions. There is no exception to magical flight being different than natural flight (except for possibly being unable to Run -- I contend that you cannot Run while flying regardless of the source of the fly speed) so the flight rules are used when using magical or natural flight movements.
Staying awake for extended periods of time can cause physical damage to your body, you don't need to take a punch or to fall down for you to sustain physical damage
Sure, but that's not what happens when you walk 9 hours after a good night's rest now, is it?
wow seriously.. you ignored my entire post.. the item perfectly emulates the spell effect, the numerical difference if from a pricing standpoint... this is asinine.
Uhm... The spell will give a +2 bonus to a paladin's spell DC's, saves and cha-based checks, allow her to cast higher-level spells if her charisma was low, as well as increasing the amount of charisma drain needed to make her comatose with 4.
Are you claiming if she puts on a circlet she'll get exactly these benefits?
My mistake for misquoting you on what you said on a person level (mixxed you and el curvo up), But on a game level you have no Authority to tell me i am wrong and and my statement still stands
Of course he has the authority to tell you you're wrong. You of course have the authority to ignore what he says.
I'd just like to say I too think you can fly with a Fly spell while paralized, that is what sounds most logial to me, anyway.
However, I can also understand if the Devs decide to rule that paralyzing effecst also prevent any sort of movement, including supernatural flying. After all, that seems to be the purpose of such conditions.
However again, if we interpret supernatural flight as a peculiar exception to a paralyzing effect, I don't find that too broken and think this makes the game more interresting.
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I'd just like to say I too think you can fly with a Fly spell while paralized, that is what sounds most logial to me, anyway.
However, I can also understand if the Devs decide to rule that paralyzing effecst also prevent any sort of movement, including supernatural flying. After all, that seems to be the purpose of such conditions.
However again, if we interpret supernatural flight as a peculiar exception to a paralyzing effect, I don't find that too broken and think this makes the game more interresting.
In what ways does it make the game more "interesting"?
At best it seems to be "creative thinking" on how to avoid legitimate penalties enforced by status effects entirely intended to not allow what people are trying to say they are being allowed to do with no rules backing their opinion.
Also, it isn't supernatural. If we are going to discuss rules, words and terms are important. How they are used in the write ups and wording of effect, doubly so. Broken is doing something that isn't "intended" and or, doing something beyond what it states.
Allowing something to work as a purely mental, when it is not stated to be so explicitly, is at best bending the rules, and quite often "breaking" the rules. It may not be "overpowered", but that doesn't mean it isn't using it in a broken way.
What you are talking about also has a rule. When you go without sleep in athfinder, you generally gain the fatigued condition unless you have a specific exception.
Mind quoting the rule that says that? It was my understanding that it didn't exist.
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Driving a car for 8 hours straight is tiring, and you do nothing physical, not even walking...
I think this is kind of symbolic of the argument going on here.
Driving requires constant carefully controlled physical input, agility, reflexes, and balance (See Dexterity in the Getting Started section of the core rule book). When I drive, I have one hand on the wheel, the other on the shifter. One foot is operating the gas and brake, while the other depresses the clutch pedal when needed. I'm checking my mirrors, my blindspot, operating my signals, lights, wipers, etc. All require fairly fine muscle control - not strength, but measured physical input. With a little practice, this requires about as much concentration as walking, leaving me free to cast spells and attack normally listen to the radio and have a conversation with passengers.
Now, the fly spell, or most other forms of flight in Pathfinder don't have technological mechanical controls like a car. The carpet of flying uses voice commands that are magically interpreted and followed by the item. The fly spell has no voice commands or mechanical input and relies on the fine muscle control of the user to determine what you can accomplish. The better your Dex, and practice, the more skilled you are at flying.
I have never used a segway scooter, but I imagine the fly spell has similar handling characteristics. Basically you lean in the direction you want to go, and compensate for gravity, momentum, and air resistance. How exactly do you do this? Magically of course, because it is a magic spell.
What you are talking about also has a rule. When you go without sleep in athfinder, you generally gain the fatigued condition unless you have a specific exception.Mind quoting the rule that says that? It was my understanding that it didn't exist.
It's not in the CRB, it's from AP #44:
Characters who do not get a full night's sleep may suffer the effects of fatigue. If a PC does not get at least 6 hours of sleep, she must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be fatigued and take a –1 penalty on all other checks and saving throws against sleep effects. A second night without sleep requires another DC 15 Fortitude save. A failed save results in the character becoming exhausted and the penalties increasing to –2. A third failed save on the next night increases the penalties to –3.
I actually got that mixed up with the other rule that was already in discussion. When you take damage from hustling or a forced march you also gain the fatigued condition.
Tut, tut... Good maneuverability allowing automatic hovering is a 3.5 thing.
Edit: Huh, I could've sworn there was a post quoting James Jacobs up there just now.