But he is a hellknight of ASMODEUS. Seems odd that he would not go with the deity he specifically reveres...most likely the LN Hellknight would probably end up in the plane of Axis due to his LN alignment, i am basing this off of the fact that souls go to what ever plane best fits their alignment as from the novel Death's HereticYes but he Is still EVIL. So if someone actively worships and praises Asmodeus (even a LN guy like a hellknight), would they be tortured and flayed by him? Seems like a piss poor way to get followers...Also those arguements make sense for the random evil guy, but what about people who actually worship evil dieties? Like people who worship Asmodeus or Zon Kuthon? Hell, Asmodeus prettY much has a city that is his (Cheliax is very much pro asmodeus...).You can be Lawful Neutral and worship Asmodeus. Asmodeus is Evil-aligned and EXTREMELY Lawful-aligned. He runs the multiverse's prison.
take that up with the lady of graves
most likely the LN Hellknight would probably end up in the plane of Axis due to his LN alignment, i am basing this off of the fact that souls go to what ever plane best fits their alignment as from the novel Death's HereticBut he is a hellknight of ASMODEUS. Seems odd that he would not go with the deity he specifically reveres...
If I remember right, that might not necessarily be the case. It is one of the reasons why cheliax chafes with the existence of hellknight orders. They do not necessarily fall under the dark prince's banner, which means the goals and authority might have... friction with house thrune at times.
Ostensibly, depending on the order, the hell knights are more devoted to law than to hell itself. The devils are (supposedly) used as a scare tactic..and because they are beings of law that are very ready to make deals (and as such easier to get as arbitrators). Also, there is the general philosophy of diabolism, where you respect hell's efficient structure while not necessarily agreeing of the overall teachings. Also, dressing like that and going around as hell knights does have the nice effect of scaring people into listening to you.... people realize you are serious when you bring out the thumb screws...
Whether that seperation from hell actually holds true at higher levels of authority can be questionable... but as far as private Joe Skullcrusher is concerned, that is how it works.
The order of the godclaw specifically worships under a strange creed that is a mixture of all the major lawful deities' doctrines mixed until you can't entire tell whose it is. Heck, there is even a specific paladin archetype meant for hellknights (one that just so happens to 'conveniently' lose the ability to sense evil in favor of sensing chaos... yeah, that archetype relies somewhat heavily on ignorance and willful ignorance)
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I already basically ignore alignment for pretty much that reason.
if Good and Evil are objective forces...why is anyone evil? You're objectively wrong. You cannot delude yourself into thinking you're doing the right thing. Which means all villains above level 5 have to be freakin' Snidely Whiplash because a 1st level spell can tell them "Yep, you're Evil.".
I suspect a lot of evil folks in the Pathfinder are pretty honest to themselves about it.
If anything, it helps you identify the people who are actually committed to what your doing.
Because they know the universe is revolted by what their doing, and they fully intend to keep right on doing it.
Edit: And frankly, humans have a massive capacity for cognitive dissonance. I could see a person, despite being objectively aware that the universe judges him evil, to keep going on right on with an utterly abhorrent course of action because he thinks he'll be absolved for it or even rewarded for it in the end.
He's wrong, but mortals have an amazing capacity for being aggressively and stubbornly wrong.
Second edit: In short, mortals will outright reject facts that don't mesh with their worldviews, regardless of how insane and disprovable their worldview is.
Just look at the Flat Earth movement =P
Second edit: In short, mortals will outright reject facts that don't mesh with their worldviews, regardless of how insane and disprovable their worldview is.
Just look at the Flat Earth movement =P
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Flip it the other way and think about it. In a powerful neutral being said I will do an act of charity that will save 100 lives for every murder you commit. If you start committing murders will you turn evil? You are doing bad things for non bad reasons. Just like your example, doing good thing for bad reasons.
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Then you're a murderer for hire who's accepting an odd payment.
That could be the basis of an interesting infernal bargain, though.
Also wanted to bring up the matter of being on the winning team - a significant number of followers for Rovagug, Lamashtu, Asmodeus, etc. follow their respective deities because they think their deity is going to win.
Just what is being won may not receive careful consideration.
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if Good and Evil are objective forces...why is anyone evil? You're objectively wrong. You cannot delude yourself into thinking you're doing the right thing. Which means all villains above level 5 have to be freakin' Snidely Whiplash because a 1st level spell can tell them "Yep, you're Evil.".
The same reason why people don't catch prostate cancer until it is too late- they didn't want to go in and the doc put the glove on.
Seriously- how often do people get themselves checked ou by detect evil spells? That is 10 gold (1st level spell x 1st caster level x 10) to tell you something about yourself that you should already know (or think you know).
The only people that would bother to get themselves checked out would eb the type with a guilty conscience.... and that would already put them on the repentant end of the spectrum, making it more likely they would be neutral anyway.
While it might be common knowledge that good and evil are physical things... does that necessarily mean you know where you necessarily fall? You can guess... but if you are one of those 'for the greater good' types, you probably think you are good (or at least neutral) anyway.
This is particularly true if someone tried to get themselves dinged early in life. If they tried a detect evil spell on themselves prior to level 5, they would get a false negative, and thus think "Yeah...I'm fine!" This is the limit on the fact that these spells are a specific technology that you have to see specialists for, and that tech has its limits.
So very, very few evil people realize they are evil. Heck, even clerics (who often have a lot of access to free detect evils) might not realize it if they worship an evil god (asmodeus, for instance), or even a neutral god (abadar), since they ding as their god would ding. It is only a very, very small and special subset of people who are evil and they know it.
The middle ages is a time period spanning a thousand years. The Scandinavians and Slavs (for example) had entirely different beliefs about the afterlife at the beginning of the middle ages than at the end.
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Pf is a storytelling game and as the DM you are the writer. You get to decide if this person slowly or abruptly changes alignment and then tell how it happened. Alignment shift is a mixture of beliefs and actions to support those beliefs. examples:
Sarah was terrified at the visit to the 9 Hells.
LG: She immediately went to the local clergy and confessed her crimes. She was sentenced to hard time and when she got out, she went to the temple and dedicated her life to helping others escape evil. At first she did so out of fear, but eventually out of gratitude for being allowed to serve.
NG: She realized the harm she had done and began secretly seeking out the families of the people she harmed. Once she met them and helped them, she found herself spending more and more time with them. Accepted as she had never been before, she sought to emulate the conditions that led to a life like theirs.
CG: She dedicated herself to ridding the world of bandits like her, becoming a scourge in the wilderness. Always cautious around civilization, she gathered to herself a merry band of like-minded folk and built a big tree fort.
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Sound like John Constantine from Hellblazer. Handle it like that.
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Actually they did find proofSecond edit: In short, mortals will outright reject facts that don't mesh with their worldviews, regardless of how insane and disprovable their worldview is.
Just look at the Flat Earth movement =P
I was going to refer to a certain scene from Monty Python's Meaning of Life . . . .
If he's come to his senses after seeing true ultra-depravity that he doesn't like then he surely has wolen up to the reality of the error of his ways. If he has honesty changed alignment he should be allowed to follow the new alignment. And then he won't go to the Abyss or wherever he was destined to go. If he starts being nice and is no longer a bandit then he is forgiven. Surely.
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I already basically ignore alignment for pretty much that reason.
if Good and Evil are objective forces...why is anyone evil?
Because people seldom turn down short cuts to gratification because of some abject fear of going to "the bad place" when they die. The fact that many Americans believe in Hell hasn't prevented malicious or selfish actions by "God-Fearing" Christians. In a fantasy world where powers can enter pacts with mortals, many will be tempted by the offer of things (or people) they can't otherwise have.
Many people want what they want now, and consequences aren't thought of until well after the fact. Not every NPC has access to the rules books and settings guide, and thinks of terms in a meta framework.
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While I'll allow the existence of evil races, any individual from any race can be of any alignment, orc, drow or otherwise.The way I do it, orcs, drow, etc aren't 'evil' races. They are races. Some prevailing cultures in those races may have cultural values we might consider evil. Other cultures in those races might not. Various schools of thought can exist in those cultures on what is ideologically correct, and so on.
Makes things a whole lot more interesting in my opinion, and a whole lot more believable to me.
I'm pretty sure that Drow are all required to be Chaotic Good rebels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin. Paired scimitars are standard issue.
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If he's come to his senses after seeing true ultra-depravity that he doesn't like then he surely has wolen up to the reality of the error of his ways. If he has honesty changed alignment he should be allowed to follow the new alignment. And then he won't go to the Abyss or wherever he was destined to go. If he starts being nice and is no longer a bandit then he is forgiven. Surely.
Thread necromancers are straight up evil though. *nods convincingly*
Also those arguements make sense for the random evil guy, but what about people who actually worship evil dieties? Like people who worship Asmodeus or Zon Kuthon? Hell, Asmodeus prettY much has a city that is his (Cheliax is very much pro asmodeus...).You can be Lawful Neutral and worship Asmodeus. Asmodeus is Evil-aligned and EXTREMELY Lawful-aligned. He runs the multiverse's prison.
I'm pretty sure you can be Lawful Good and be a cleric of Asmodeus: Pact Servant
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It might be interesting to look at this from the perspective of an evil character, they might be aware that they are Evil, but to them that word might have another connotation, to them it means Strong. They have the strength to make the hard calls, the dirty choices, they get the job done.
Another aspect is that people tend to be amazingly good at convincing themselves that everyone is just like them, whether they admit it or not. They might see Good folks wandering around doing whatever it is they do, as simply being too weak to really take what they really desire or face the consequences. Good just means you've tricked yourself into acting against your own best interests.
Of course, as has been mentioned up-thread, these sorts of philosophical have been plaguing the world for uncountable years. It's entirely possible we won't ever settle on the answer, because there isn't really one answer.
The fun thing is that the reward for good behavior in the afterlife is almost exactly the same as that for evil behavior.
In both cases your memories and previous life is destroyed and you become a foot soldier in an extraplanar army. The good side basically wipes you out with euphoria, while the bad side goes with torture but the end result is fairly identical.
I can very much see someone deciding that this life is the only time that matters, might as well enjoy it.
The Razmirans have it right.
I was curious, now in Golarion and several fantasy realms the inhabitants know the gods exist but there are still evil folk (there are even those that hope to die and become demons to their chosen patron like drow in forgotten realms), right? So what if you took your average bandit (the guy who kills the people he robs and such) and you showed him a vision of the abyss, or even TOOK him there temporarily, and then he changes his ways. He doesn't do so out of a desire to help people or do good, it's because he was traumatized by what he saw and still has nightmares about it, so he even does good things because he's eager to please a patron to keep him out of the abyss.
Does his alignment still show him as evil? Where does he go after death in THIS case?
They'd end up Neutral. They certainly aren't Good because their motives are entirely selfish, but if they actively refrain from taking actions that they know are Evil, then they're Neutral. Lawful Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or (True) Neutral. Definitely not Good, though.
The fun thing is that the reward for good behavior in the afterlife is almost exactly the same as that for evil behavior.
In both cases your memories and previous life is destroyed and you become a foot soldier in an extraplanar army. The good side basically wipes you out with euphoria, while the bad side goes with torture but the end result is fairly identical.
I can very much see someone deciding that this life is the only time that matters, might as well enjoy it.
The Razmirans have it right.
You're looking at it from a Western perspective which is hyperfocused on the survival of individual identity. From a Hindu or Buddhist perspective, such as one adopted by Arthur C. Clarke becoming one with the Divinity is the ultimate reward.
You're looking at it from a Western perspective which is hyperfocused on the survival of individual identity. From a Hindu or Buddhist perspective, such as one adopted by Arthur C. Clarke becoming one with the Divinity is the ultimate reward.
Perhaps. I am western and that is indeed how I look at it.
I will point out though, that even from that perspective, in the Golarion setting becoming a demon or devil is just as much becoming part of divinity as becoming an angel.
Actually, the only devil to reach divinity in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting is Asmodeus and he's an actual deity.
I was curious, now in Golarion and several fantasy realms the inhabitants know the gods exist but there are still evil folk (there are even those that hope to die and become demons to their chosen patron like drow in forgotten realms), right? So what if you took your average bandit (the guy who kills the people he robs and such) and you showed him a vision of the abyss, or even TOOK him there temporarily, and then he changes his ways. He doesn't do so out of a desire to help people or do good, it's because he was traumatized by what he saw and still has nightmares about it, so he even does good things because he's eager to please a patron to keep him out of the abyss.
Does his alignment still show him as evil? Where does he go after death in THIS case?
In this scenario I'm envisioning, the character harbors no love for the people he helps and (if he didn't know what awaited him) would gripe and moan about doing all these 'annoying' things like help people.
I ask because I was trying to imagine if it was possible to change the smarter of the irredeemably evil races (minus demon and devil worshippers) by frightening them out of their evil. After seeing the abyss, even if you want to be evil, supposing your orc mate just took an arrow through the heart and you very nearly joined him, you'd know where you would have very nearly ended up and I would imagine it would drive some changes.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/early-judgment
Depending on the creature's alignment and its adherence to its ethos, you can provide it a brief glimpse of the reward or punishment that waits for it when it dies by showing it a mental image of its destined plane in the afterlife. If the target is good-aligned, it is fascinated for 1d4 rounds on a failed save. If the target is neutral-aligned, it is confused for 1d4 rounds on a failed save. If the target is evil-aligned, it is shaken for 1d4 rounds on a failed save.
Then there is also Champions of Purity that has a chapter on Redemption and evil characters.
So there is definitely a rule set available for this entire scenario. It involves intentions, penances, potential relapses...
As a whole it is possible to turn away from evil out of fear... but eventually it would have to change to a more tradional 'I don't want to hurt people' mentality for it to really count as 'being good'
The spell doesn't detect evil intent, so yeah, his alignment would become weaker. Atonement would speed this up. If he dies while still in transition, he would probably wind up in the land of the dead as a prepetitioner. The topic where I go into that is in homebrew in Goth's Freak Show. I'll link it when I have the time.
In the Land of the Dead he would be stalked by reapers of multiple alignments. Some souls or spirits might be willing to train him in a prestige class like reaper or rider.
As for alternate cosmology, they see what they believe. It kind of limits where you can go with plane shift. You would have to believe in the land of hungry ghosts to go there. Someone who believes in it could cast the spell and lead you there.
You're looking at it from a Western perspective which is hyperfocused on the survival of individual identity. From a Hindu or Buddhist perspective, such as one adopted by Arthur C. Clarke becoming one with the Divinity is the ultimate reward.Perhaps. I am western and that is indeed how I look at it.
I will point out though, that even from that perspective, in the Golarion setting becoming a demon or devil is just as much becoming part of divinity as becoming an angel.
The Eastern perspective is much more about balance and order as opposed to good and evil. Nirvana is more about serenity than it is hosanas. Arthur Clarke started as a Westerner, but his later books, particularly Childhood's End, show his conversion to an Eastern point of view.
Actually, the only devil to reach divinity in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting is Asmodeus and he's an actual deity.
Actually, both Archdukes of Hell and Demon Lords of the Abyss are Demi-Gods in their own rights, with Deific Portfolios, Domains, and followers.
Also, Asmodeus is believed to have started as a Deity, becoming the ruler of Hell later; plus, on the other side of the equation we have the Demon Lord Lamashtu who rose to divinity by consuming a god.
For me, a monster with the powers of a god can be called a false god for short.
Not sure how the nature of evil gods affect how fast a character goes from evil to neutral.