I love Nox and her Hell Hound, I anticipate a long drawn out battle.
I got a "crush" on Azvernathi Raul, loving the style he is put as a
I just switched him to having two light maces and gave him weapon finesse over combat casting, since in his tactics it says he doesn't cast after he brings out his maces anyways.
Just posted to say enjoying the AP so far. I'm the DM for this and I have reskinned the AP to take place in the Capital city of Galt. Been loads of fun so far. The rebellion mechanic is taking place largely in the back ground. So far my players have done everything right including devising their own methods to bring notoriety.
Next for them is rexus will direct them to the old museum. Should be fun
So who here just knows that their players will sell most/all of the Figurines of Wondrous Power when they find them? Almost every group I've played with would hock most of 'em at the first opportunity, maybe keeping one (or two) for emergencies. Even then, thats 1900 gp per player. (if two are kept)
I'm thinking about removing all but one-two of 'em for this reason - it would be less than 1000 gp per person if they sold 'em, which is a more reasonable amount, plus they'd lose out on their usefulness.
That being said, as mentioned in the book about this exact thing, do you guys think that keeping all 6 and letting them hock 'em as they want would be a bad thing? I mean the WBL is already gonna be outa wack even without these, and double-so since I'm using Automatic Bonus Progression for this campaign (I need to remove more loot me thinks..)
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So who here just knows that their players will sell most/all of the Figurines of Wondrous Power when they find them? Almost every group I've played with would hock most of 'em at the first opportunity, maybe keeping one (or two) for emergencies. Even then, thats 1900 gp per player. (if two are kept)
I'm thinking about removing all but one-two of 'em for this reason - it would be less than 1000 gp per person if they sold 'em, which is a more reasonable amount, plus they'd lose out on their usefulness.
That being said, as mentioned in the book about this exact thing, do you guys think that keeping all 6 and letting them hock 'em as they want would be a bad thing? I mean the WBL is already gonna be outa wack even without these, and double-so since I'm using Automatic Bonus Progression for this campaign (I need to remove more loot me thinks..)
My players kept them, but I know if I ran it for my other group, they'd have tried to sell them. My plan if that happened was to say that the city had an uneasy feeling about the term "silver raven," so they couldn't find a buyer.
Hm making it require a Diplomacy check to try and sell the figurines might work. I mean, it wouldn't be good for a merchant or whatnot to get caught with a known symbol of a revolutionary group. I like this.
It would certainly count as "Give Aid that could result in punishment", so the DC would be pretty steep for low level players. And try and sell it to the wrong buyer.. might have some Dottari look into them! Definitely doing this, thanks for the idea :D
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So them tooth fairies.. they're pretty nasty little buggers. Nearly wiped my test group due to constant biting, paralyzation and lots of bleeding.
Combine the fact that they each have Sleep? With the PCs being level 2, two castings is sufficient to take 'em out long enough for the little buggers to rip out lots of teeth (the bleed will wake up the sleeping players of course). Man I love these guys as enemies.
That being said, I ran it without them fleeing (Just for testing purposes) and it ended up being a 17-round long battle, with nearly everyone's teeth being ripped out (Cleric was down to 5 cha from 13, Swashbuckler to 3 from 14, Sorcerer to 12 from 18, and Rogue to 7 from 12). The fairies simply started ripping out teeth when they paralyzed a foe - otherwise they generally focused on pinching them with the pliers and biting. +8 and +7 to hit respectively means they're going to hit alot, but at the damage they do, they're mostly going to be doing nonlethal, so its going to take a while.
Still a brutal fight though heh.
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F#!+!
Sounds more like an epic Stanley Cup Finals game then a pathfinder game. :-D
So.. my previous statement of the tooth fairies being a brutal fight was a bit premature.
Blosodriette.. now SHE'S a tricky little bugger.
So we have an Imp (who are notoriously difficult to pin down due to their invisibility, DR, and fast healing), given rogue levels, a higher AC than normal, more potent poison that can be applied to her blowgun and/or shortsword as a swift action, and the ability to use her various magic items at her disposal, not to mention the ability to summon 1d3 rat swarms.
What do we have? A strong case of a pain in the player's asses. (Excusez mon Français)
So, her tactics. With a +21 stealth check combined with Invisibility, she's neigh undetectable when she doesn't want to be, abling her to guarantee sneak attacks. But not just any sneak attacks - no, she can sneak attack with a poisoned blowgun at range (sniping, anyone?) or sneak attack with her Wand of Acid Arrow. Yes, she can sneak attack with a ranged touch attack that deals 2d4 acid damage (plus an extra 2d4 on the next round!), providing she can make a DC 20 UMD check. Such a check is not difficult with her +11 UMD bonus; she'll succeed a little over half of the time.
But wait, theres more!
While invisible, she can use UMD to summon a creature from the Summon Monster III list; there are a few good (Ahem, Evil) creatures from this list, including an Augur Kyton if you're using the Monster Summoner's Handbook. These buggers last 5 rounds and will provide her with much needed (not really) support; if she can succeed on a DC 25 UMD check.
Then you have Misdirection. Cast it on a nearby non-magical crate, and suddenly she's immune to spells such as Detect Evil, Detect Law or even Detect Magic, provided she stays within 30 ft of said object. There goes one method of detecting her while invisible, provided she can succeed on a DC 23 UMD check. *Edit* Forgot about the will save to ignore the effect; the DC is only going to be 13, so its not all that hard. But it still offers a means of protection that she can apply to herself while invisible, especially if the players start scoping the hideout with Detect spells. It lasts for 3 hours, so she can easily keep herself safe for the time it takes them to search her out, at least on one occasion (after that she can't resort to this defense again, being out of scrolls).
Next up is Touch of Idiocy. With a melee touch attack all but impossible for her to miss, she can more than easily reduce the mental facilities of any annoying spellcasters; all she has to do is succeed on (two, one for each scroll) UMD 23 checks.
Barring all that (and her ability to summon 1d3 swarms of rats from the nearby sewers, should she want to go that route), she has a +12 attack with her (poisoned!) shortsword and +6 with her (poison-loaded) stinger, each of which do fully lethal damage unlike previously mentioned toothfairies. Being surprisingly resilient in melee (2 Fast Healing, 18 AC, and DR 5/Silver or Good), she can go to town on a lone player, having snuck up on him (+1d6 damage right there) and begun stabbing him. Due to her increased HD and Constitution, her poison goes from being a DC 13 Fort to a DC 15 fort - and she can apply it twice per round (once from a swift action applying it to her short sword, and once directly from her stinger). Although it only requires one save to remove, it can get nasty real fast.
In the end I must applaud Crystal for creating such a wicked little beasty - since the players are unlikely to have See Invisibility or Glitterdust by the time she becomes a nuisance, they're going to have a horrendously difficult time with her.
My own Test PCs got lucky in the fact that I had the Swashbuckler buy a vial of Silversheen with some of his money earlier in the campaign (not realizing how UNGODLY USEFUL it was going to be), and the Cleric wielding a Mwk Silver Mace she found elsewhere. They were able to corner her as she poisoned the rogue into oblivion (She went from 16 dex to 8 Dex and nearly fell unconscious to stab wounds) and get a lucky crit from the swashbuckler and a hit from the cleric onto her. This brought her down low enough to surrender; they then banished her after making her give up her magic items (excluding the pipes).
Before he applied his silversheen, the swashbuckler couldn't hurt her (1d6+1 damage); the rogue was all but useless, and the sorcerer found out the hard way she was immune to Sleep (due to her 5 HD) and then proceeded to bombard her with magic missiles (that were all but negated due to her fast healing). The cleric, meanwhile, being slow in her bulky armor (Seriously, she's the slowest one of the bunch - the rest are flightly little s@!&s), kept trying to keep up with the rest of them. She had herself protected and buffed with Protection from Evil and Magic Weapon, along with giving the rest of the party Bless. But being able to move at less than half the speed of Blosodriette.. she couldn't do much.
If it wasn't for a few lucky hits and me deciding to have her be a bit more bloodthirsty with melee than her tactics said she'd be, I could foresee her wittling away at them until they collapsed from poison damage.
TL;DR: Blosodriette is MEAN.
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IIRC the summon monster is coming from a scroll, yes?
In that case, I don't think she can use it (or any of her other scrolls) while invisible--you need to be able to read the scroll, and she can't see invisible objects.
She can use the wand though, and I got in a good sneak attack with that.
Hm.. good point, that should've been obvious but I overlooked it. Still, using Invisibility after she's been spotted, she can hide behind a crate, dismiss her Invisibility, then use the scroll - although doing so would cause her to be spotted again, at least she'd have time to cast it from the safety of cover.
In my test run she failed her UMD check anyways, so it was a moot point hah. ...she also ended up rolling a natural 1 when trying to use her wand, so that was a bust too.
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From what I remember (I don't have the book in front of me) when the PCs fight bloodrite, she is out of invisabilities. She only has X invisibilities per day, and the PCs are supposed to find/fight her when she is out of them (catching her when she is particularly vulnerable. Plus her CMD is crap. All a PC has to do is grapple her (she's tiny so it doesn't provoke), survive one dose of poison, then pin, then tie up. I can't remember what her escape artist is, but even if she gets out (as a full round action) the other PCs can wail on her.
Imps can cast Invisibility as much as they want - its purely At Will (But only themselves).
She has an 18 CMD and a +7 CMD. Grappling her is an option, but not a sure-fire one. The groups (now) 3rd level Swashbuckler has only 17 CMD and a +4 CMB, so she's technically a better grappler than anyone in my test group.
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My party trapped her in one of the smaller rooms by using an illusion to block the door (she failed her save), and then chased her around the room whittling her down.
I also have a paladin (who used smite) and an inquisitor with silver weapons, so her DR was no real obstacle.
The fun part is that one of my PCs is a Sarini, so once they realized they could keep her and boss her around, there was a HUGE debate between the players :)
Yeah I could see that happening if it comes up. My own test-players are made up of a swashbuckler, hidden priest cleric of Milani, Unchained rogue, and sorcerer. The only silver weapon they had was on the cleric; though the swashbuckler had a vial of silversheen.
They fought her in the big room with the crates.
I'm still sort of confused on how the map for the Threat of the Red Jills works, mainly due to lack of description in the text about it - and the map is all sorts of confusing.
I understand perfectly about the chapel: Roof thats 20 ft above the ground, bell tower thats 10 ft higher than that, sloped roof and the little access-ladder from a trap door in the building beneath it. My assumption is that the doors to the inside are on the west.
But the orphanage is whats confusing me. First off, the map presents the 'roof' as a room with walls and a door, yet with a rope ladder that apparently goes through the walls. My best guess is that its a flat, open roof with short walls around the edges and some sort of gate; Is that ladder along the southern wall leading up to a balcony up there? How high is the roof from the ground? Is the balcony (if thats a balcony) at the same height? The stairs that have collapsed, where are are they, or did they simply not lead up to the roof in the first place? Is the door into the gutted building on the west side, beneath the assumed-balcony?
I assume any description that was in there about it was cut out due to word-count, since the church is the main focus in this encounter, but as someone who likes a description of what he's seeing so I can write about it, its bugging me XD
What're your guys thoughts? How did any of you play it?
Slight error in Nox's statblock. It says when power attacking, she only gains +4 to attack; This isn't true, as she's using a two-handed weapon, thus should be getting +6. Nothing huge or anything, but it was enough to 1-shot my test group's rogue..
..and swashbuckler..
..and cleric..
She hits hard lets just say that :D (Plus the Hellhound softened up the cleric and swashbuckler for her)
Can you read invisible words? :-)
Don't you have to pay extra for that.
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I'm kind of surprised Abdarans aren't more featured in this AP. I don't have all the books but from what I hear, they don't factor too prominantly. This is word because Thrune is going against the tenants of their faith. I know Abdar is lawful, but two of his big tenants are fair and lawful trade (which the 8th proclamation reduces) and that laws are meant for the betterment of society. It says somewhere that laws that serve no purpose or that don't help society (like Thrunes clearly sadistic laws that he makes for his own amusement) are antithetical to Abdar'd belief and should be abolished.
Just a thought.
We intentionally downplayed the role Abadar and his faith play in this AP because it's more or less intended to be one that skews heavily toward a chaotic good party, not the nearly opposite of Abadar's lawful neutral alignment. If the faith of Abadar comes off as feeling inept and weak and even helpless or in cahoots with Asmodeus in this adventure path, that's kind of the point. They're not intended to be the saviors of this situation, and the idea of a rebellion against the lawful rulers of a city, however evil that ruler is, is not something the faithful of Abadar would get behind.
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I got a "crush" on Azvernathi Raul, but...Spoiler:can anyone tell me why he hasn't been built as a warpriest?
Because the newer classes are inherently more complicated than the base classes, and are in-world rarer than the base classes. As a result, when I build and develop NPCs, there needs to be a good reason for that NPC to be one of the less common and more complex classes; and often the best reason is "This character is a significant presence who the GM will be expected to study up on and prepare more for." If it's an "on the way to the end" NPC like this guy, and if his role can be fulfilled by a base class, in 99% of the cases I'll build him as that base class so that a GM can use her/his system mastery and not have to spend extra time familiarizing with the new rules if they aren't familiar with the class.
Of course, if you, the GM, are already familiar with the new classes and are eager to play with them, rebuilding NPCs is one of the best ways to adjust an adventure and make it your own.
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They're not unchained monks; we made the decision to not use optional rules like that for the most part in our products (with the summoner being the major exception as regards Unchained content).
The 15 hp thing appears to be a typo that crept in after development; not sure how it happened, frankly. They should have 12 hp (maximum for first level). Sorry about that!
Chelilsh Citizen Group deaths do indeed detract from Kintargo's population, as do deaths of Asmodeans or Dottari. If you DO keep track of diminising population, those deaths count.
Kintargo's final population only really matters in adventure 4, at which point there's guidelines for how to estimate the city's population decline during the previous 3 adventures if you don't keep meticulous track of deaths... which is the best bet, because otherwise you as the GM would need to decide when incidental deaths not related to the PCs or not on-screen occurred.
Thank goodness. I really think abstracting it out is the way to go. I mean, otherwise it is like the PCs are basically the only arbiters of death in the city. Think about it: no deaths from disease, illness, doghousing, torture, no one leaving the city, no one coming to the city, no births. . . .
We intentionally downplayed the role Abadar and his faith play in this AP because it's more or less intended to be one that skews heavily toward a chaotic good party, not the nearly opposite of Abadar's lawful neutral alignment. If the faith of Abadar comes off as feeling inept and weak and even helpless or in cahoots with Asmodeus in this adventure path, that's kind of the point. They're not intended to be the saviors of this situation, and the idea of a rebellion against the lawful rulers of a city, however evil that ruler is, is not something the faithful of Abadar would get behind.I'm kind of surprised Abdarans aren't more featured in this AP. I don't have all the books but from what I hear, they don't factor too prominantly. This is word because Thrune is going against the tenants of their faith. I know Abdar is lawful, but two of his big tenants are fair and lawful trade (which the 8th proclamation reduces) and that laws are meant for the betterment of society. It says somewhere that laws that serve no purpose or that don't help society (like Thrunes clearly sadistic laws that he makes for his own amusement) are antithetical to Abdar'd belief and should be abolished.
Just a thought.
I understand cutting it for story Cohesion and not having the Abdar Church get behind things. I dunno, I guess I thought it might have deserved a mention in the "Suggested religions for Players" in the players guide. Maybe as a way to play a paladin and still be a revolutionary. I can most certainly see a paladin of Abdar working with the silver ravens to overthrow Thrune.
Anyway, I understand your reasonings.
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Creative Director
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I understand cutting it for story Cohesion and not having the Abdar Church get behind things. I dunno, I guess I thought it might have deserved a mention in the "Suggested religions for Players" in the players guide. Maybe as a way to play a paladin and still be a revolutionary. I can most certainly see a paladin of Abdar working with the silver ravens to overthrow Thrune.
Again... Abadar is a LAWFUL deity. He wasn't really mentioned in the "suggested religions" specifically because of that. His faith is not super appropriate for Hell's Rebels. You can certainly play a worshiper of Abadar in the campaign, but it's akin to playing a druid in an all urban campaign or a pirate in a campaign that never goes to sea or a barbarian in a high-diplomacy at court campaign. It's gonna feel awkward at times, and as such, it's not a good suggestion, and as such was not included in the "suggested religions."
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Because the newer classes are inherently more complicated than the base classes, and are in-world rarer than the base classes. As a result, when I build and develop NPCs, there needs to be a good reason for that NPC to be one of the less common and more complex classes; and often the best reason is "This character is a significant presence who the GM will be expected to study up on and prepare more for." If it's an "on the way to the end" NPC like this guy, and if his role can be fulfilled by a base class, in 99% of the cases I'll build him as that base class so that a GM can use her/his system mastery and not have to spend extra time familiarizing with the new rules if they aren't familiar with the class.
Of course, if you, the GM, are already familiar with the new classes and are eager to play with them, rebuilding NPCs is one of the best ways to adjust an adventure and make it your own.
Could you share your reasoning for using warpriest for
Spoiler:the lich in Castle Kintargo?
Absolutely.
I made sure to include in the First Warden's tactics specific callouts to the new mechanics the warpriest offers (and warpriest is in fact one of the less complicated of the classes in there to run... it pales in comparison to the brawler, for example, who can swap out her feats... aieee!). Of course, it also helps that it's a high level adventure, which implies that the GM has had over 3 adventures to "practice" by the time she gets to this one and isn't going to be blindsided by a weird new unfamiliar option in a first level adventure which has a better chance than "A Song of Silver" of being the first GM duty.
So, after seeing Owen kick ass with a warpriest, after hearing the internet being crazy, and after realizing that warpriest was a perfect role for the First Warden's personality and theme, I went with that choice. The fact that the First Warden is not a "monster on the way to the boss" but is in fact the "boss" of that section of the adventure also helps, of course!
I absolutely love that guy in book 4. Very pleasantly surprised to see such an unusual Lich rather than your standard arcane caster.
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Again... Abadar is a LAWFUL deity. He wasn't really mentioned in the "suggested religions" specifically because of that. His faith is not super appropriate for Hell's Rebels. You can certainly play a worshiper of Abadar in the campaign, but it's akin to playing a druid in an all urban campaign or a pirate in a campaign that never goes to sea or a barbarian in a high-diplomacy at court campaign. It's gonna feel awkward at times, and as such, it's not a good suggestion, and as such was not included in the "suggested religions."I understand cutting it for story Cohesion and not having the Abdar Church get behind things. I dunno, I guess I thought it might have deserved a mention in the "Suggested religions for Players" in the players guide. Maybe as a way to play a paladin and still be a revolutionary. I can most certainly see a paladin of Abdar working with the silver ravens to overthrow Thrune.
IMO, Abadaran Paladins are pretty much a "little good" force. While Iomedeans watch over the prison of a Lich that tried to kill all living things several times so far, Abadarans are watching trade caravans. While Iomedeans are crusading against the demonic hordes, Abadarans are trying to sort out trade disputes. And while Iomedeans are crusading against the unjust Thrune rule, it makes sense for Abadarans to oppose arbitrary laws that impede trade (also, mass murder and arson kinda sound like crimes, and the prime suspect is kinda obvious).
If we go by medieval logic, trying to get the BBEG to accept the Silver Raven's legal jurisdiction to stand trial, or die (that used to be a legal outcome of pressuring someone to accept a legal jurisdiction (and the pressuring would be literal, with stones stacked on someone until they accepted jurisdiction, or died, I suppose you can have an earth elemental use the BBEG as a seat in Pathfinder...)), would be a natural objective of an Abadaran paladin. A by the book medieval legal action would look kinda weird by modern standards, but certainly sounds like it could be fun in-game.
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Magenhorn has surmised my arguement. They player's handbook for Hell's rebels mentions how one could make a paladin, or even a Hellknight, work in the AP, I was just a bit surprised that Abdar didn't get a token mention of 'If, as a player, you want to play a paladin/lawful character in this AP, an Abdaran does have some reason to oppose Thrune'. I understand you can't fit everything in, totally get that, just something I noticed.
As I understand it, as presented Abdar is the God of civilization and laws in order to get trade and society working smoothly. Barzalai Thrune is disrupting trade and his frivioulus and clearly sadistic laws are disrupting society, and so it is reasonable for SOME Abdarans to oppose him. If I have the wrong of it, that's my bad.
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Creative Director
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Magenhorn has surmised my arguement. They player's handbook for Hell's rebels mentions how one could make a paladin, or even a Hellknight, work in the AP, I was just a bit surprised that Abdar didn't get a token mention of 'If, as a player, you want to play a paladin/lawful character in this AP, an Abdaran does have some reason to oppose Thrune'. I understand you can't fit everything in, totally get that, just something I noticed.
As I understand it, as presented Abdar is the God of civilization and laws in order to get trade and society working smoothly. Barzalai Thrune is disrupting trade and his frivioulus and clearly sadistic laws are disrupting society, and so it is reasonable for SOME Abdarans to oppose him. If I have the wrong of it, that's my bad.
None of what I've said should be taken as "Abadar worshipers are the wrong choice to play in the AP."
I merely said they're not the best choice.
The reason we specifically address Hellknights and Paladins is that they're even WORSE choices, thematcially, for Hell's Rebels than a plain worshiper of Abadar, but I knew folks would want to play them, so I took the time to address how they'd work in the AP.
Abada faithful kinda got skipped and glossed over because they fell into a trough—not extreme (paladin/hellknight) enough but not on-theme enough.
That said... all the advice for playing a paladin or Hellknight can work to help fit Abadar worshipers in just fine, so no big loss there. If you want to play an Abadarian, go for it!
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I was talking with my players in the preliminary stages of organizing our game, and one thing I appreciated was Barzilai Thrune's fondness for dogs. Sure, he uses them for torture, but he's not one of those puppy-kicking evil villains; he loves puppies!
This should be an interesting point of contention with one of my players, who also has a great fondness for mastiffs. Of all the enemies who could be redeemed and/or recruited, I'm thinking the Silver Ravens might have a decent amount of rehabilitated pups.
So, the bard is getting caught intentionally?
I have a guy that wants to play a Samsaran Warpriest of Calistria... I think he'll be happy. I made it clear that being the only blue guy in town will take effort, however. Another guy picked a racial trait that required Aasimar and quickly switched to human and another trait once I pointed out similar issues with his metallic hair and off-color skin. He doesn't want to be the guy that has to invest in disguise to cover up. This is really going to be fun.
A few minor questions about the Greens, if James or any of the others is around.
How hard is it to get into the Greens? Are the gates heavily guarded, do they tend to turn away people seeking entrance without good reason?
I notice there's a marketplace in there so I'm assuming it's not totally restricted, and that there's a few more wealthy residents beyond the Estates which take up most of the district map.
And apropos of that, how high are the walls? Are they patrolled?
And does any of this change significantly with the imposition of martial law?
Finally, a separate question. The original (as in pre-martial law) Dottari, what happened to them? They seem to have very suddenly vanished and/or been purged, based on the short timeline running up to the start of the AP.
I was taking the view that the pre-existing Dottari were probably a bit more relaxed and moderate, given Kintargo's Lord Mayor and general attitude and alignment.
So I've stretched out the initial timeline slightly to give time for them to be shuffled out and replaced by a new commander and ranking officers. Which has also given me several nice NPC hooks as I now have some 'friendly' Dottari who have been pushed out of their posts and don't like the new regime much, who are somewhat sympathetic to the PCs and can give them a few rumours and tip-offs.
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A few minor questions about the Greens, if James or any of the others is around.
How hard is it to get into the Greens? Are the gates heavily guarded, do they tend to turn away people seeking entrance without good reason?
I notice there's a marketplace in there so I'm assuming it's not totally restricted, and that there's a few more wealthy residents beyond the Estates which take up most of the district map.And apropos of that, how high are the walls? Are they patrolled?
And does any of this change significantly with the imposition of martial law?Finally, a separate question. The original (as in pre-martial law) Dottari, what happened to them? They seem to have very suddenly vanished and/or been purged, based on the short timeline running up to the start of the AP.
I was taking the view that the pre-existing Dottari were probably a bit more relaxed and moderate, given Kintargo's Lord Mayor and general attitude and alignment.
So I've stretched out the initial timeline slightly to give time for them to be shuffled out and replaced by a new commander and ranking officers. Which has also given me several nice NPC hooks as I now have some 'friendly' Dottari who have been pushed out of their posts and don't like the new regime much, who are somewhat sympathetic to the PCs and can give them a few rumours and tip-offs.
It's not all that guarded—you can go in and visit with no problem. Part of the idea there is that many of the nobles actually enjoy the lower classes coming to ogle their riches. If someone causes problems, they're also the best financed to make sure those problems are taken care of quickly.
Details on Kintargo's walls appear on page 61 of Pathfinder #97. The walls are 20 feet tall and 10 feet wide, with a "trench" between them that's about 80 feet across that allows for guards on the outer wall to fall back to the inner wall, or to serve as a "killing ground" in an invasion (fill it with burning oil or monsters or whatever). They are patrolled. When martial law hits, the patrols are increased, and that's part of the game effects that the Martial Law city ability has on the city.
The Pre-Martial Law Dottari are in large part the post-martial law ones. The Dottari are loyal to Cheliax, not particular cities, and although those of Kintargo are perhaps less patriotic than those of Egorian, they still follow orders. Thrune's the boss, and they don't stop to question that. Pre-Barzillai Dottari were indeed more relaxed, but that's becasue their previous leader was more relaxed.
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Details on Kintargo's walls appear on page 61 of Pathfinder #97. The walls are 20 feet tall and 10 feet wide, with a "trench" between them that's about 80 feet across that allows for guards on the outer wall to fall back to the inner wall, or to serve as a "killing ground" in an invasion (fill it with burning oil or monsters or whatever). They are patrolled....
I think the map is off-scale. I was able to replicate the map on Roll20 almost perfectly to scale (almost) based on the ruler down near the bottom, and the gray area between the walls is only about 50 ft.
Plus I'll admit, I thought the two 10ft walls were crenelations for the wall itself, which was the entire gray portion. I didn't read the bit about the trench originally, but at first glance they just look like really big walls.. or really out of scale ones.
Also in that side-view of Kintargo (which looks awesome by the way), they don't look twenty feet high o.O. That being said, maybe the other bulidings are just MASSIVE in that picture in comparison. That Temple to Asmodeus certainly is impressive..
*Edit* I still think that they look like normal (very thick) walls. I cannot in any way see them as anything else. And they look almost exactly like the walls of other cities, say Highhelm. Which -are- thick walls.
In addition, look at the gates - theres no road leading through the 'killing field'. It leads under it. I'm 100% positive that either the map-maker didn't draw the map according to the description in the book or the description in the book didn't bother checking out the map. Probably 1).
Also why would they need an additional set of killing fields for the noble quarter? And that pointy bit south-west of the Alabaster Academy? o.O
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Details on Kintargo's walls appear on page 61 of Pathfinder #97. The walls are 20 feet tall and 10 feet wide, with a "trench" between them that's about 80 feet across that allows for guards on the outer wall to fall back to the inner wall, or to serve as a "killing ground" in an invasion (fill it with burning oil or monsters or whatever). They are patrolled....
I think the map is off-scale. I was able to replicate the map on Roll20 almost perfectly to scale (almost) based on the ruler down near the bottom, and the gray area between the walls is only about 50 ft.
Plus I'll admit, I thought the two 10ft walls were crenelations for the wall itself, which was the entire gray portion. I didn't read the bit about the trench originally, but at first glance they just look like really big walls.. or really out of scale ones.
Also in that side-view of Kintargo (which looks awesome by the way), they don't look twenty feet high o.O. That being said, maybe the other bulidings are just MASSIVE in that picture in comparison. That Temple to Asmodeus certainly is impressive..
*Edit* I still think that they look like normal (very thick) walls. I cannot in any way see them as anything else. And they look almost exactly like the walls of other cities, say Highhelm. Which -are- thick walls.
In addition, look at the gates - theres no road leading through the 'killing field'. It leads under it. I'm 100% positive that either the map-maker didn't draw the map according to the description in the book or the description in the book didn't bother checking out the map. Probably 1).
Also why would they need an additional set of killing fields for the noble quarter? And that pointy bit south-west of the Alabaster Academy? o.O
What you're likely seeing there is variance between the map's original turnover and the size of the finished map. The difference between 80 feet and 50 feet at that scale can be thrown off by line width, both in the art and in the demarcations on the ruler you use. If you want to go with a width of 50 feet, that's close enough to 80 feet that it doesn't make much of a difference.
The image of Kintargo's skyline is far from accurate—the buildings are WAY out of scale and exaggerated. One of the tricky things about illustrating buildings and locations in a game setting that also have maps is that it's often tough, if not impossible, to exactly match scales between the two. For most folks, this type of distinction won't even ever register though, so overall, I'm fine with the art being exaggerated if the final illustration looks awesome. Which in this case it absolutely does. Getting the art for the city skyline done so perfectly right to match the map would not only take far longer, it would require more revisions and work on the artist's behalf, which would require us paying much more money and it would also monopolize the art director's time and she didn't have as much time to spend on just one picture and so on and so on.
As for there being extra walls around the noble quarter; likely because the rich nobles who first claimed that section were willing to spend the extra money for the extra double protection from all angles.
Gotcha. I definitely won't disagree with you that the skyline art looks amazing. Its still a bit tough for me to register the killing fields between each set of walls, as it just looks so much like one big wall, but I'll work with it. Thanks for the input!
The only reason I'm being picky is because I like to try and get as much detail in for descriptive posts here on the boards, so I tend to over-analyze maps and art >.>
On that note, I asked this earlier but got no response from anyone - the map of the Red Jills' hideout is also confusing, namely the map for the orphanage (not the church). I'm assuming that theres a ladder leading up to a balcony of sorts on the south side of the orphanage? Is that what that is? And then theres some sort of gate or door leading from said balcony to the roof itself? Maybe I'm the only one having that problem seeing it but I'unno.
Thanks James, that's great info.
I'm going to play (some of) the lower ranking Dottari as being a bit more conflicted.
I have plenty faceless, irredeemable Stormtrooper types with the CCG, Church and the higher ups in the Guard. The lower ranking Dottari have family and friends in the city, so some of the ones at the 'beat cop' level will show a bit more nuance in terms of the Martial Law setup.
It should help add a layer to things and make the rebellion seem less black and white, and make my players think twice about taking a scorched earth approach to cleaning up the city.
It'll also add another layer of intrigue for any of my players who want to try and lever open another avenue of information, or even support. There are plenty historical examples of the rank and file joining the rebels when push came to shove.
Technically the CCG have family and friends in the city too - they're normal citizens who are loyal to Thrune/disgruntled at the defiant nature of Kintargo and thus have formed a militia to support Barzillai. But they're still Kintargans through and through.
If you look at the CCG thugs, they're Lawful Neutral, not evil. Some of the Dottari in later books are the same way. Neither are unredeemable - the CCG in particular are just misguided and believe that Barzillai is here to help.
That being said, playing some of them off as conflicted is not a bad idea by any means. Many might be loyal, but once Barzillai starts forcing them to do more and more violence, theres certainly going to be a few who might turn against him. ...if they aren't caught by the inquisitors first of course! :D
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Philip, if you haven't already, take a look at the conclusion to Dance of the Damned. If you have sympathetic Dottari locals conflicted with their role in Kintargo, that particular event is something you can build that relationship between the PCs and the dottari toward. It is a great moment for those dottari to "win the night" for the PCs and make the PCs see their investments of time and energy in working with them pay off big time.
I have yet another question, but this one has to do with the Rebellion Rules. I've got them understood for the most part, but one thing has been brought to my attention:
The Disguise skill. How does it interact with Notoriety, especially in the later books when players are assumed to be recognized from time to time?
I have a few players in my Hell's Rebels campaign that are going to be using the skill extensively (especially since three of them are well respected nobles or well-off citizens that don't want to damage their reputation or, in the case of an Aulomaxa, piss off their parents).
My best guess is to apply the notoriety score to their disguised aliases. But I'm not sure. I've never had to use the disguise sklil before >.>
Oh and can a player make a disguise check for another player? Help them apply makeup and whatnot? Kinda vague about that.
I have a guy playing a Samsaran with the same problem. I intend to make him do a disguise check at the beginning of each upkeep phase with a DC adjusted upwards based on notoriety. Failure will add to notoriety.
I haven't worked the mechanics, but maybe a base DC of 10 + notoriety/10 (round down) and a 1d6 penalty for failure. There will also be occasional spot checks when dealing with anyone loyal to Thrune.
Being THE only blue guy in town must have a consequence.
Philip, if you haven't already, take a look at the conclusion to Dance of the Damned. If you have sympathetic Dottari locals conflicted with their role in Kintargo, that particular event is something you can build that relationship between the PCs and the dottari toward. It is a great moment for those dottari to "win the night" for the PCs and make the PCs see their investments of time and energy in working with them pay off big time.
Yes, I was looking at that one. It may take some groundwork from the players, but having some of the Dottari rebel against the massacre would be a great payoff. One of my players is looking to have some connections to the authorities, so this would be his area.
I'm also toying with doing something with the previous Duxotas, who was replaced by Barzillai. My game has expanded gunpowder rules and my players have already indicated they want to try and salt away a cache of simple guns as well as secretly train up some locals so that when they finally take back the streets it's a less one-sided fight than the regime might expect.
A bitter former Dottari commander who was pushed out of their role for one of Thrune's favourites could work well here as an ally and underground militia commander.
I have yet another question, but this one has to do with the Rebellion Rules. I've got them understood for the most part, but one thing has been brought to my attention:
The Disguise skill. How does it interact with Notoriety, especially in the later books when players are assumed to be recognized from time to time?
I have a few players in my Hell's Rebels campaign that are going to be using the skill extensively (especially since three of them are well respected nobles or well-off citizens that don't want to damage their reputation or, in the case of an Aulomaxa, piss off their parents).
My best guess is to apply the notoriety score to their disguised aliases. But I'm not sure. I've never had to use the disguise sklil before >.>
Oh and can a player make a disguise check for another player? Help them apply makeup and whatnot? Kinda vague about that.
I'd tend to go with a penalty of something like Notoriety/5 or /10, depending on the uniqueness and profile of the player in question.
For example, one of my players is essentially playing 'The Punisher'. He's a low CHA Ranger who acts as the groups enforcer and assassin. So although the group as a whole may have a high notoriety, he tends to keep to the shadows and I wouldn't penalise him too heavily. Our Oracle on the other hand is a much more unique and noted figure inside the group and would find it harder to go unnoticed.
Personally I've never had a problem with people using skills like Disguise on each other, there's no reason it has to be self only if you have the time and the resources. In fact I'd usually give them a +2 because it's much easier to do makeup and create a 360 degree disguise on someone else than it is to do it on yourself.
I will admit some surprise the Vigilante rules weren't released for this AP, seeing it would be perfect for Hell's Rebels. Seeing my latest attempt to put together a Hell's Rebel group fell apart (we're going with Runelords instead, so I get to run two concurrent Runelords games with two separate groups - not a bad thing, mind you, seeing that I can expand on things I thought of after the first game), it'll be once my first group finishes off Karzoug in a year or so before they will start this AP... at which point I may very well see some vigilantes. :)
It is curious however as to how effective the Disguise check is against magic. If the Silver Ravens are only known as their personas and they don't do anything rebellious as their non-disguised selves, it could be difficult to track them down without high-level magics.
Indeed, one of the reasons for the gifts at the end of Book 2 is so our primary antagonist can keep an "eye" on the PCs.
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I will admit some surprise the Vigilante rules weren't released for this AP, seeing it would be perfect for Hell's Rebels. Seeing my latest attempt to put together a Hell's Rebel group fell apart (we're going with Runelords instead, so I get to run two concurrent Runelords games with two separate groups - not a bad thing, mind you, seeing that I can expand on things I thought of after the first game), it'll be once my first group finishes off Karzoug in a year or so before they will start this AP... at which point I may very well see some vigilantes. :)
It is curious however as to how effective the Disguise check is against magic. If the Silver Ravens are only known as their personas and they don't do anything rebellious as their non-disguised selves, it could be difficult to track them down without high-level magics.
Indeed, one of the reasons for the gifts at the end of Book 2 is so our primary antagonist can keep an "eye" on the PCs.
The fact that Ultimate Intrigue comes out a few months after Hell's Rebels finishes up is an unfortunate bit of timing, yeah. I would have loved to have been able to use some of the content in that book for Hell's Rebels, but it wasn't ready by the time I finished the last volume and sent it off to the printer, alas. Best I could do was beg the designers to make sure that they didn't include an archetype or feat that would undo the adventure path accidentally! ;-P