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I was browsing through the bestiaries for some inspiration for a dungeon idea I had and I stumbled across the Time Dragon.
It was love at first sight.
Now let me start at the beginning. The dungeon idea I had is a 20 level dungeon with the heroes advancing each time they finish a level. So when I saw the time dragon I knew it was too perfect an opportunity to pass up.
The poorly produced plot: At some point in the dungeon the players will run into a Wyrmling Time Dragon (and some purple kobolds), almost beat him to death and then let him escape with his life. The Wyrmling bottles it up for 1200 years and then decides to take his revenge by using his new ability to TIMETRAVEL TO ANY POINT IN TIME.
Arriving in the past with some henchman (probably including his purple half-dragon kobold offspring.) he begins to lay the groundwork for his plan and builds a lair on the 20th floor of the dungeon.
Well, that's the basic idea, now for the problems that i might need some help with.
I'm gonna use the temporal causality loop theory where you can't alter time. This basically means that the Great Wyrm Time Dragon could have build the entire dungeon and that the purple kobolds taking care of the Wyrmling are his offspring, even though that idea makes your head hurt.
One problem is that the players might kill the Wyrmling. I'm gonna try to avoid that by giving the Wyrmling extra hitpoints through Toughness and Diehard as Time Dragons are immune to the staggered condition. They are also pretty fast, so getting away shouldn't be much trouble. That's 3 feats for 25 hp though, so I'm not sure about this. Diehard does seem like the best way to get something out of his immunity though.
Another problem is his alignment. I'm a bit stumped here because Time Dragons are Neutral. They don't seem to be BBEG material aside from being very powerful dragons. I need at least an excuse for him to attack the party (if they don't attack him.) or an excuse for him to be Evil.
well, time-travel shenangans mean that just as he himself created the dungeon, created his off-spring to care for his infant self, he also instructed his off-spring to beware the evil human-lings, and instruct his off-spring to warn his infant self to likewise beware. it's almost like in-world justification for GM fiat :-)
question: do time dragons like coffee?
Just because the most common alignment for Time Dragons is neutral doesn't mean they don't have evil representatives. I mean, there are evil elves and dwarves....
Just because the most common alignment for Time Dragons is neutral doesn't mean they don't have evil representatives. I mean, there are evil elves and dwarves....
Just like how undead are always evil and paladins are always Lawful, time dragons are always neutral. Dragons are very specific in terms of alignment when it comes to color and are one of the only monsters actually defined by it.
@OP
Just because the time dragon isnt of evil alignment doesnt mean he cant do "evil" things. Remember neutral doesnt mean not evil, it just means not evil without a reason. Neutrals need a self motivating goal to lean towards either axis of the alignment plane. The PCs have provided that reason. A reason for him to -want- to make the PCs suffer as much as he remembers suffering, and probably more as he has been brooding on it for centuries and probably added some stuff accidentally that makes it seem even worse.
Just like how undead are always evil and paladins are always Lawful, time dragons are always neutral. Dragons are very specific in terms of alignment when it comes to color and are one of the only monsters actually defined by it.
1. Undead aren't always evil, for example Ghosts.
2. Paladins have mechanics saying they have to be lawful good.3. Dragons do not have mechanics saying they are always their listed alignment.
4. The bestiary says this on monster alignments:
The alignments listed for each monster in this
book represent the norm for those monsters—they can
vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of
your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent
monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are
almost never anything other than neutral) and planar
monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those
listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind)
is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.
Basically the only creatures that are ALWAYS of a certain alignment are the ones with an alignment subtype.
Yes there are exceptions but those amount to an handful in the entire multiverse.
Dragons aren't subtyped so the can stray from their alignment with more frequency
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Why doesn't time time dragon go back to when they were born and like, cut off their limbs, or something
OP wants to go for autoconsistency.
If the dragon goes to their past and cut their limbs then they can't beat him up in the present and thus he doesn't have a reason to go back and mutilate them in the first place causing a paradox like the grandfather one.
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Okay, time to make some quick responses.
Quandary brings up a nice idea. I'm not sure if that's the way I want to go, but when I was imagining the Wyrmling's hoard I was thinking of a history book written by himself? Then I figured that it might even contain details of the future and suddenly you have something that gives a bonus on Knowledge (History) checks and has some divination powers. As a not so nice GM, I'd add bits like:
"xx-xx-xxxx. Today [PC name] was born. After his birth I killed and devoured both his parents and suggested to the midwife that she should take the baby and run. I just can't wait to suck the marrow out of his bones when he's all grown up."
I don't want the Wyrmling to have to much of a bond with his future self though. The Great Wyrm knows he's gonna survive in the end anyway.
I know I can change the alignment if I feel like it, but an in-game reason would be nice.
I also know I can fudge the whole escaping-with-his-life-part, but I prefer to use that as a last resort. In addition, Time Dragons are immune to the staggered condition, so it's kinda hard to drop Diehard just because it works together well.
Why doesn't time time dragon go back to when they were born and like, cut off their limbs, or somethingOP wants to go for autoconsistency.
If the dragon goes to their past and cut their limbs then they can't beat him up in the present and thus he doesn't have a reason to go back and mutilate them in the first place causing a paradox like the grandfather one.
Well yes, but it also robs the players of a very cool campaign ending.
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Can the time dragon use wish to recharge one of its time travel shots? How about clone or, heck, raise dead?
I say build a campaign around an evil wizard that manages to actually summon the Oliphaunt of Jandeley for some reason, and the time dragon has to help the heroes try again and again to stop the wizard.
How's that?
Completely the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve. Thank you!
As long as you are going for a self-consistent paradox:
The young time dragon is evil because it was raised to be evil by the old time dragon, who is evil because of the horrors the PCs inflicted on him and also because he was raised to be evil by...
I love time loops. :)
I always thought it was silly that dragon alignments were essentially colour coded based on their scales.
Anyway time travel is a pretty good idea if you do it right. Just make sure to have a good reason for why the time dragon can't simply travel back in time and slaughter the PCs as infants.
I always thought it was silly that dragon alignments were essentially colour coded based on their scales.
I always thought it was silly that dragon alignments were essentially colour coded based on their scales.
Anyway time travel is a pretty good idea if you do it right. Just make sure to have a good reason for why the time dragon can't simply travel back in time and slaughter the PCs as infants.
Do you want angry Karma Lords and Hounds of Tindalos? Cause thats how you get angry Karma Lords and Hounds of Tindalos.
Perhaps the PCs encounter Hounds of Tindalos every now and then, but, strangely, they don't seem to care much about the PCs. The PCs might see them once or twice, then later on get attacked (no real reason, the Hounds just happened to be hungry), but mostly they're just these sources of background ominousness.
Obviously, the Time Dragon gave its younger self just enough resources to survive being attacked, so feel free to fudge that. The wyrmling was raised by kobolds—distant ancestors of the Adult Time Dragon (oh, hey, that was already your idea)—to despise the adventurers.
Perhaps, later on, the PCs encounter a single Time Dragon egg. Their enemy (currently an Adult) is attempting to find it, as this is its egg—accidentally stranded many years ago. The PCs will likely either use the egg as a bargaining chip, or destroy it, assuming that when the Adult says "That's my egg" he's speaking literally. Finally, a way to get rid of this pesky villain! This will inspire the Time Dragon to truly despise the PCs.
If they try to return the egg, or treat it well, encourage a mishap. Maybe the Great Wyrm ensures its destruction to make sure its younger self will hate the PCs forever.
Above all, though, BE FLEXIBLE.
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So exceptions exist. End of story. And with Time Dragons, even a single evil Great Wyrm is going to leave marks on all of reality. Let's stop nitpicking here. I can't stand it when someone's campaign idea gets crashed by experts on Golarion lore, especially when the guy's campaign isn't necessarily set in Golarion and he's using a non-Pathfinder dragon type. :P
Perhaps the PCs encounter Hounds of Tindalos every now and then, but, strangely, they don't seem to care much about the PCs. The PCs might see them once or twice, then later on get attacked (no real reason, the Hounds just happened to be hungry), but mostly they're just these sources of background ominousness.
Obviously, the Time Dragon gave its younger self just enough resources to survive being attacked, so feel free to fudge that. The wyrmling was raised by kobolds—distant ancestors of the Adult Time Dragon (oh, hey, that was already your idea)—to despise the adventurers.
Perhaps, later on, the PCs encounter a single Time Dragon egg. Their enemy (currently an Adult) is attempting to find it, as this is its egg—accidentally stranded many years ago. The PCs will likely either use the egg as a bargaining chip, or destroy it, assuming that when the Adult says "That's my egg" he's speaking literally. Finally, a way to get rid of this pesky villain! This will inspire the Time Dragon to truly despise the PCs.
If they try to return the egg, or treat it well, encourage a mishap. Maybe the Great Wyrm ensures its destruction to make sure its younger self will hate the PCs forever.
Above all, though, BE FLEXIBLE.
What about the angry demigod Aeons?
I wish everyone wouldn't keep suggesting intentionally making b#&~#&#! paradoxes. I find it just drags plots down most of the time, and it's one of the reasons it's hard to do time travel well - so why would you INTENTIONALLY do it?
A better explanation building off of the initial idea is that the elder version goes back in time and sets up in the top of that dungeon because he knows that the PC party will end up there. Simple as that. After the initial encounter, though, you could have an occasional kobold minion being spotted darting away from the party because they're spying for the elder dragon, and perhaps if your players get in trouble an attack might whiz out from around a corner to aid them because the dragon wants the PCs to survive so that it can confront them itself at the top.
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Now that I think of it. I don't think the wyrmling time dragon should have access to a history book from the future. That would add all kinds of headache-inducing Interstellar stuff. I would like the players to find it though, so I might just add some locks and traps and put it in the hoard anyway.
Arcane Lock wouldn't normally work on a book, but I've seen books with locks before. (Well, diaries anyway. Then again, this is basically a diary anyway.) Then all I need is some kind of trap that wouldn't destroy the book when set off and I'm done.
Except that the book should have some other benefit besides being a masterwork history book. Something divination-like.
Why do I keep picturing these purple kobolds as ninjas?
Arcane Lock wouldn't normally work on a book, but I've seen books with locks before. (Well, diaries anyway. Then again, this is basically a diary anyway.) Then all I need is some kind of trap that wouldn't destroy the book when set off and I'm done.
Except that the book should have some other benefit besides being a masterwork history book. Something divination-like.
The description for a Book Lariat implies that spellbooks generally have locks on them, so I don't see why you couldn't decide to have a lock on any book you want, and you could argue that if the book's binding has a lock on it, it would count as a portal (the spell means portal in the mundane sense, like a door, window, archway, or other opening) for the purposes of Arcane Lock.
Oh, perhaps the book would let the holder cast Guidance at will? Or maybe 3/day as an immediate action? Or both? That's a Divination spell that wouldn't be gamebreaking.
Except that dragons are also specifically called out as almost never breaking alignment.In Golarions entire history there has been ONE evil gold and ONE good red dragon for example. It's also pointed out that coppers are specifically the dragons most known to break alignment, while greens are the chromatics most known to break alignment and both normally go to CN/LN respectively.
According to Dragons Revisited anyway.
You say that as if Golarion fluff was rules.
well, time-travel shenangans mean that just as he himself created the dungeon, created his off-spring to care for his infant self, he also instructed his off-spring to beware the evil human-lings, and instruct his off-spring to warn his infant self to likewise beware. it's almost like in-world justification for GM fiat :-)
question: do time dragons like coffee?
100 cups of coffee? :)
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Basically the only creatures that are ALWAYS of a certain alignment are the ones with an alignment subtype.
Yes there are exceptions but those amount to an handful in the entire multiverse.
Dragons aren't subtyped so the can stray from their alignment with more frequency
Except that dragons are also specifically called out as almost never breaking alignment.
In Golarions entire history there has been ONE evil gold and ONE good red dragon for example. It's also pointed out that coppers are specifically the dragons most known to break alignment, while greens are the chromatics most known to break alignment and both normally go to CN/LN respectively.
According to Dragons Revisited anyway.
Meh, it's yes/no.
A single example means yes. So the GM can do what they want.
Of course, the GM can ALWAYS do what they want.
Sounds to me like they should encounter the full grown, great wyrm version of this dude as their next encounter.
They have to learn how to run away, methinks.
Could go with multiple universe theory. Killing the dragon in its infancy just creates a timeline where that dragon never grew up. The current, alpha timeline is unaffected, and all versions of said dragon still exist. That said, the version of the dragon that is oldest is the one that survived each encounter with the party. Maybe it killed them when it was younger. Maybe they never arrived. Maybe they were a different set of adventurers. For whatever reason, this elder dragon survived where his other versions did not. Now, the question is in his motivation. If his past selves survived, it would not matter, but perhaps it comforts him to know there are more versions of him that survive to adulthood. Maybe the thought of himself dying is just disturbing. Or maybe he wants to keep/test his children, see if they don't try killing those versions of himself to usurp his position, thus leading to him culling their number and leaving only the loyal ones.
*sniff sniff* I smell burning. Maybe I should stop.
Could go with multiple universe theory. Killing the dragon in its infancy just creates a timeline where that dragon never grew up. The current, alpha timeline is unaffected, and all versions of said dragon still exist. That said, the version of the dragon that is oldest is the one that survived each encounter with the party. Maybe it killed them when it was younger. Maybe they never arrived. Maybe they were a different set of adventurers. For whatever reason, this elder dragon survived where his other versions did not. Now, the question is in his motivation. If his past selves survived, it would not matter, but perhaps it comforts him to know there are more versions of him that survive to adulthood. Maybe the thought of himself dying is just disturbing. Or maybe he wants to keep/test his children, see if they don't try killing those versions of himself to usurp his position, thus leading to him culling their number and leaving only the loyal ones.
*sniff sniff* I smell burning. Maybe I should stop.
You pretty much just described a core concept in my last game.
If I liked a BBEG, he could come back because a)raising people isn't that hard or b)alternate reality/timeline.
My players went home with paradox headeaches, it was epic. I miss that game...
Hehehehehe, yeah, wibbly wobbly timey whimey stuff can get rather convoluted very easily.
Oh, another thing you could do is state that the dragon exists in the 4th dimension. This would allow it to always be aware of where it had been or where it will be in the future, and it knows its death is coming. Of course, when time becomes such an endless sea of possibilities past, present, and future, the dragon may have difficulty determining when/how it will die, but once it dies, it dies in all times, eliminating its future influences and only solidly stabilizing its past activities as it pertains to the nature of its demise. Every time a time dragon dies, I imagine the universe shatters into millions of different roads impossible to be perceived by 3 dimensional creatures.
An artifact that allows you to see or force the 4th dimension to comply to 3rd dimension rules may be a powerful weapon against a time dragon.
Hehehehehe, yeah, wibbly wobbly timey whimey stuff can get rather convoluted very easily.
Oh, another thing you could do is state that the dragon exists in the 4th dimension. This would allow it to always be aware of where it had been or where it will be in the future, and it knows its death is coming. Of course, when time becomes such an endless sea of possibilities past, present, and future, the dragon may have difficulty determining when/how it will die, but once it dies, it dies in all times, eliminating its future influences and only solidly stabilizing its past activities as it pertains to the nature of its demise. Every time a time dragon dies, I imagine the universe shatters into millions of different roads impossible to be perceived by 3 dimensional creatures.
An artifact that allows you to see or force the 4th dimension to comply to 3rd dimension rules may be a powerful weapon against a time dragon.
Ultimately, rule 0 lets us do what we want, as long as the players have fun, it's okay to have an indestructible BBEG. As long as they stop his evil plots, the fact that you can't kill him isn't relevant.
GMs have unlimited resources, it's okay to admit this. :D
The 'fun' is something that is lost in a lot of GMs. Ultimately, I take an altruistic approach: I'm providing my friends with a service. It might not be fun for me if they destroy all of my encounters, but it's better to be the 1/5th sad side than to make the others miserable at your expense.
Besides... our time always comes. Eventually.
The 'fun' is something that is lost in a lot of GMs. Ultimately, I take an altruistic approach: I'm providing my friends with a service. It might not be fun for me if they destroy all of my encounters, but it's better to be the 1/5th sad side than to make the others miserable at your expense.
Besides... our time always comes. Eventually.
If everyone is laughing and thanking me for running the game, I have done it right.
This has (historically) been accomplished by letting the party curb-stomp almost everything, and surprising them with a +4 or more CR BBEG every now and then.
It isn't complicated, but it makes them feel like super heroes.
:D
I almost never kill characters, and I never INTEND to do it... But don't tell my players that!
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Could go with multiple universe theory. Killing the dragon in its infancy just creates a timeline where that dragon never grew up. The current, alpha timeline is unaffected, and all versions of said dragon still exist. That said, the version of the dragon that is oldest is the one that survived each encounter with the party. Maybe it killed them when it was younger. Maybe they never arrived. Maybe they were a different set of adventurers. For whatever reason, this elder dragon survived where his other versions did not. Now, the question is in his motivation. If his past selves survived, it would not matter, but perhaps it comforts him to know there are more versions of him that survive to adulthood. Maybe the thought of himself dying is just disturbing. Or maybe he wants to keep/test his children, see if they don't try killing those versions of himself to usurp his position, thus leading to him culling their number and leaving only the loyal ones.
*sniff sniff* I smell burning. Maybe I should stop.
Not again. What part of "no grandfather paradox" don't you guys understand?
You could have, say, two (three?) time dragon wyrmlings. That gives you some plot flexibility. The PCs kill all but one and the survivor flees to seek vengeance for the death of its siblings. So one is angry at the PCs for something they did (maybe they're on a fetch quest to bring back an item that it considers its property) and willing to fight to the death, and one just wants to survive until it's older. That way you don't have to contrive a specific battle result as long as you don't let them all die.
Multiple universe theory does not create paradoxes.