If a mindblade manifests a Shield as a Psychic Weapon, does it provide a shield Bonus to AC?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

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Psychic Pool (Su):
A mindblade gains a psychic pool,
similar to a normal magus’s arcane pool. At 1st level,
a mindblade can expend 1 point from her psychic pool
as a standard action to manifest a light melee weapon
of her choice, formed from psychic energy. By spending
2 points, the mindblade can manifest a one-handed
melee weapon, and by spending 3 points, she can
manifest a two-handed melee weapon (but not a double
weapon). This psychic weapon can last indef initely,
but it vanishes if it leaves the mindblade’s hand. The
mindblade can dismiss a held psychic weapon as a free
action. When a psychic weapon vanishes, the mindblade
regains the psychic energy used to create it. She can
maintain only one weapon at a time.
At 1st level, a psychic weapon counts as a magic
weapon of whatever type the mindblade selected, with
a +1 enhancement bonus. At 3rd level and every 3 levels
thereafter, the weapon’s enhancement bonus increases
by 1, up to maximum of +5 at 12th level. Starting at 5th
level, the mindblade can add any of the weapon special
abilities listed in the arcane pool class feature in place
of these bonuses, although the weapon must maintain
at least a +1 bonus to benefit from any weapon special
abilities. At 15th and 18th levels, the weapon gains an
additional +1 enhancement bonus, which the mindblade
can spend only on weapon special abilities.
This ability replaces arcane pool, and counts as arcane
pool for the purpose of feats, abilities, and class features.

A psycic can manifest a melee weapon at first level. Shields (and Klars and Madu) are weapons and are therefore valid to manifest. If you create a psychic shield, does it provide a shield bonus as a normal shield of it's type?


Manifest a klar and avoid the incoming debate about whether shields are weapons or only "can be used like weapons".

Scarab Sages

Yes, but the klar has even more debates. The Madu at least is straight forward, but requires an EWP.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

A psycic can manifest a melee weapon at first level. Shields (and Klars and Madu) are weapons and are therefore valid to manifest. If you create a psychic shield, does it provide a shield bonus as a normal shield of it's type?

Shields are not weapons. In certain cases they CAN BE USED AS weapons, but that does not cause them to leave the shield table. In other words, psychics can not manifest things that are not found in the weapons table.


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shields are weapons, they are on the weapon table.


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LazarX wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

A psycic can manifest a melee weapon at first level. Shields (and Klars and Madu) are weapons and are therefore valid to manifest. If you create a psychic shield, does it provide a shield bonus as a normal shield of it's type?

Shields are not weapons. In certain cases they CAN BE USED AS weapons, but that does not cause them to leave the shield table. In other words, psychics can not manifest things that are not found in the weapons table.

From UE weapons table:

Light shield
Spiked light shield
Heavy shield
Spiked heavy shield

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Unless you see it in the mechanics, then you have to default the description of the power. Unless it says you can get a shield bonus from it, you can't, no matter what form you conjure up.


"You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defense."
I doesn't say and. A feat that allows you to use a shield as a weapon and protection at the same time would solve your problem.

Scarab Sages

bump


My gut reaction is that you can, but you would only get the +1 shield AC. That is, it would be a +X weapon, but only a mundane shield. So it would be similar to the case where a Mindblade manifested a meteor hammer and used it in fortress mode.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A Shield is in all ways, a weapon.


Gisher wrote:

My gut reaction is that you can, but you would only get the +1 shield AC. That is, it would be a +X weapon, but only a mundane shield. So it would be similar to the case where a Mindblade manifested a meteor hammer and used it in fortress mode.

This sounds correct to me, since typically shields would typically be enchanted as armor or weapons separately.


By my reading:

Quote:

At 1st level, a psychic weapon counts as a magic

weapon of whatever type the mindblade selected, with
a +1 enhancement bonus.

This suggests that whatever you manifest has all the usual properties of any weapon that you can manifest. In addition, it only states that the weapon disappears once it leaves your hands.

In addition, it states "magic weapon", so the shield would only be enchanted as a weapon. Since shields are normally enchanted separately for weapon and armor bonuses, it would manifest as a mundane shield but magic weapon, as gisher says.

However, as pointed out before, under normal circumstances you can only benefit from one function of the shield at a time. Should you choose to attack with it, you will not be benefiting from the shield bonus to AC during that round.

So yes, it works, but there's still the question of if it "works".


If you are planning on making a mindblade shield, then you would obviously want to have the Imp Shield Bash feat in order to attack with it effectively at all.

EDIT: *effectively

Scarab Sages

TGMaxMaxer wrote:
If you are planning on making a mindblade shield, then you would obviously want to have the Imp Shield Bash feat in order to attack with it at all.

You don't need improved shield bash to attack with a shield. You need it to attack and retain the shield bonus.


Yeah, but if you are planning on using a shield (subpar weapon to choose in the first place as a mindblade) at all, you are -most likely- choosing it to gain the defense as well.

I know it's not required, but choosing a 20x2 low damage weapon is not only suboptimal, but downright self-destructive in effectiveness without it.


Apparently, some players like to miss build characters.

Scarab Sages

Eh, crit range is over-rated in most situations. Yes, you do more DPR with better crits, but feats and traits can make up the difference.

If you were to take a shield, You would likely take the shield bearer trait for +1 damage, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, and would two-hand the shield for 1.5 STR and 1:3 power attack.

You wouldn't really benefit from Shield Master with this, as your built in pool bonus is better than the shield bonus from a heavy shield. Still, it gives you more AC than normal for a Magus, and some great control options with an Enforcer Shield Slam Rimed Frostbite.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Shield is in all ways, a weapon.

A mindblade however, is ONLY a weapon. no matter what form you want to make it, you can only get what the power mechanics say you can get.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Shield is in all ways, a weapon.

A mindblade however, is ONLY a weapon. no matter what form you want to make it, you can only get what the power mechanics say you can get.

A Meteor Hammer is only a weapon. Yet a Meteor Hammer gives a +1 Shield bonus to AC when wielded in Fortress Mode.

Why wouldn't a shield likewise give a shield bonus to AC when it is wielded as a weapon, assuming you have the feat that allows you to do so?


Imbicatus wrote:
LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Shield is in all ways, a weapon.

A mindblade however, is ONLY a weapon. no matter what form you want to make it, you can only get what the power mechanics say you can get.

A Meteor Hammer is only a weapon. Yet a Meteor Hammer gives a +1 Shield bonus to AC when wielded in Fortress Mode.

Why wouldn't a shield likewise give a shield bonus to AC when it is wielded as a weapon, assuming you have the feat that allows you to do so?

Or a Scizore. You just put it on and you've got a +1 shield bonus to AC.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Shield is in all ways, a weapon.

A mindblade however, is ONLY a weapon. no matter what form you want to make it, you can only get what the power mechanics say you can get.

I don't see how being a Mindblade somehow makes a shield less of a weapon.

It's a completely valid choice.


Quote:

At 1st level, a psychic weapon counts as a magic

weapon of whatever type the mindblade selected

This is the key part of the language here. "whatever type" means that if you picked a dagger, it mimics all the properties of a dagger. It means if you picked a longsword, it mimics all the properties of a longsword. And this should mean, by extension, that if you picked a shield, it should mimic all the properties of the shield. Because it specifically says that it counts as a magic weapon of whatever type you selected, it would need specific exception language for you to be unable to manifest a shield.


Imbicatus wrote:

Eh, crit range is over-rated in most situations. Yes, you do more DPR with better crits, but feats and traits can make up the difference.

If you were to take a shield, You would likely take the shield bearer trait for +1 damage, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, and would two-hand the shield for 1.5 STR and 1:3 power attack.

You wouldn't really benefit from Shield Master with this, as your built in pool bonus is better than the shield bonus from a heavy shield. Still, it gives you more AC than normal for a Magus, and some great control options with an Enforcer Shield Slam Rimed Frostbite.

Alternatively, you could TWF with two light shields, get Improved Critical for them and get Bashing Finish and laugh at the sheer number of attacks. Hammer the Gap would not be out of place there, either. Also, while not statistically plausible, I believe it might be technically possible to have infinite attacks using Bashing Finish.


This archetype might be one of the few that could really benefit from the Shield Focus feats. Usually they aren't worth the cost of a feat since it is easy to enchant the shield, but for a sword and board Mindblade they might be valuable enough.

I'm thinking Fighter would be the best dip to get Shield Proficiency, because you also get the bonus feat and other armor proficiencies. Any other good dips?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Trust me, no one would bat an eye at a Klar Mindblade.


No one? ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, not at the table.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, not at the table.

:)

I agree. It seems pretty straightforward for shields that qualify as weapons. Now trying to manifest a crowbar and using it to open a door while claiming it is an improvised weapon would be fishy.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No need.

The Kunai notes it can be used as a Crowbar without penalty.


Bloodrealm wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Eh, crit range is over-rated in most situations. Yes, you do more DPR with better crits, but feats and traits can make up the difference.

If you were to take a shield, You would likely take the shield bearer trait for +1 damage, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, and would two-hand the shield for 1.5 STR and 1:3 power attack.

You wouldn't really benefit from Shield Master with this, as your built in pool bonus is better than the shield bonus from a heavy shield. Still, it gives you more AC than normal for a Magus, and some great control options with an Enforcer Shield Slam Rimed Frostbite.

Alternatively, you could TWF with two light shields, get Improved Critical for them and get Bashing Finish and laugh at the sheer number of attacks. Hammer the Gap would not be out of place there, either. Also, while not statistically plausible, I believe it might be technically possible to have infinite attacks using Bashing Finish.

Infinite? No. Unless you're using cheating dice, or the GM isn't a sane person, you're not getting more than twice your standard allotment of attacks, tops.

But more than usual? Certainly.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

No need.

The Kunai notes it can be used as a Crowbar without penalty.

Very nice! I tip my hat to you, Sir!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Shield is in all ways, a weapon.

A mindblade however, is ONLY a weapon. no matter what form you want to make it, you can only get what the power mechanics say you can get.

A Meteor Hammer is only a weapon. Yet a Meteor Hammer gives a +1 Shield bonus to AC when wielded in Fortress Mode.

Why wouldn't a shield likewise give a shield bonus to AC when it is wielded as a weapon, assuming you have the feat that allows you to do so?

Or a Scizore. You just put it on and you've got a +1 shield bonus to AC.

Because again, you have supplementary mechanics giving you more than what the base mechanics does. Show me the same supplementary mechanics for mindblade and you're solid.


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LazarX wrote:
graystone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Shield is in all ways, a weapon.

A mindblade however, is ONLY a weapon. no matter what form you want to make it, you can only get what the power mechanics say you can get.

A Meteor Hammer is only a weapon. Yet a Meteor Hammer gives a +1 Shield bonus to AC when wielded in Fortress Mode.

Why wouldn't a shield likewise give a shield bonus to AC when it is wielded as a weapon, assuming you have the feat that allows you to do so?

Or a Scizore. You just put it on and you've got a +1 shield bonus to AC.
Because again, you have supplementary mechanics giving you more than what the base mechanics does. Show me the same supplementary mechanics for mindblade and you're solid.

Why? There's nothing in the Mindblade section that says you use only a weapon's basic functions, such as damage type, weight, critical multiplier, damage dice, etc., or that shields (and similar weaponry) are not applicable choices for the Mindblade ability. So why should we treat it any different from any other weapon? Because it comes from an ability? That's not a legitimate rules reason to dismiss the effects of an ability, nor is it a sense of RAI.

Shadow Weapons must not be able to produce shields either, or Instant Weapon.

Even so, it's a +1 (or +2) Shield AC weapon that deals fairly weak damage dice, has a garbage critical multiplier, and it's not getting much higher/better than that. It's not like they can conjure up a Tower Shield with this; it's not defined in the Weapons table, or in the Fighter Weapon's Group, so it's not an applicable per RAW.

If you want to have a more dubious discussion, I'd rather propose if Mindblades can create Natural Weapons out of Psychic Energy, such as Horns for a Gore Attack, or Teeth for a Bite Attack (since all Natural Weapons are Light Weapons, they too would technically be applicable).


The Gnome favored class bonus lets them add a variety of special abilities to the list of Arcane Pool special abilities. Defending is on the list, so a Gnome Mindblade could use that ability to convert some (or later all) of the shield enhancement bonus for offense into an untyped AC bonus.

At 15th level he could manifest a heavy shield for a +2 shield bonus, get another +2 shield bonus from the shield focus feat line, and convert the entire +3 enhancement bonus to defense (assuming he made a shield bash that round). That's a total of +7 to AC.

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