| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who doesn't own the book, I do find the errata situation hilarious.
After the book was released, we had people proclaiming the book was horrible, needed errata right now, and was proof that Paizo was going to pot and they would never ever purchase a product from the company again.
Some people continued with that attitude through much of next year, demanding early release of errata.
And then, we got early release of errata, and people are angry, proclaiming this renders the book horrible, Paizo is going to pot, and they are never going to purchase a product from the company again.
Now I know that doesn't describe everyone, and I know the ACG had probably the worst editing issues of any hardcover, but I can't help but be "amused" by "just can't win" nature of the situation.
The point is simple. People wanted an errata, not a balance patch ala MMO. In case you are being confused, errata means fixing things that doesn't works, not modifing thing that actually already works.
They actually have done very little of the first with egregius things like Edritch Scion or Brawler's flurry still extremely muddy if not downright wrong, and basically rewritten half the book to do things completely different than before.So in conclusion, "people" where angry because they wanted an errata, and now are even more angry because they didn't get it, and they will actually never get it since is being subbed by a blanket nuke on everything that was actually nice in the book.
Paizo doesn't really understand stand the subtle art of nerfing. They identify a problem, then say "F$&! everything!" and make it as worthless as possible so they never have to touch it again.
I disagree. Prevention is always better than cure....
I said from Day 1 that many of the classes were poorly thought out from the start.... the nerfing is merely the symptom of the malaise
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The confusion only steems from people considering "not working" as the same as "not working as I intended/wanted". Do please notice that the last one is more than twice as long as the first, as in "60% more stuff added to completely change the meaning".
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They actually did fix the wide variety of problems with things that simply didn't work as written. And they nerfed a variety of things that the community was largely in agreement were overpowered. And then they kept going, and nerfed a whole lot of stuff that was actually well liked.
I think this is a fair observation of what is happening here.
Things like Animal Soul and Spirit's Gift were perfectly fine as is, well liked even, then they went in and changed them in a way that no one is ever likely to take them. Why???
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel the arcanist limit to consume spells was too extreme. It isn't like you aren't already paying the cost by losing a spell.
|
Despite the work of having to make new pfs characters I think in general the errata was good. A lot of the things I used were nerfed but its mostly because they were way out of power level for their cost.
Now we just need to get around to nerfing the core rulebook... (I'm only slightly sarcastic, that book is op.)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo doesn't really understand stand the subtle art of nerfing. They identify a problem, then say "F%&! everything!" and make it as worthless as possible so they never have to touch it again.
Agreed and seconded. Their seems to be a adamant refusal to find the proper middle ground with the debs IMO. Either a option is too strong. Or it's not worth taking. Or so badly nerfed it's not worth taking. As well as doing nothing to remove the image that martial a cant get nice things IMO.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
A very general reminder and advice: If you feel someone is not contributing meaningfully to a topic there is no need to engage them in conversation. It would probably be best to ignore their posts and return to the conversation at hand, or if such posts are offensive, do the above, but also flag and move on.
*puts away his preaching podium*
I thought Beckett is an unique snowflake ;)Unique and awesome.
Can I give this a plus 3?
i got to agree, a ton of characters out there right now simply have to be scrapped because of some of these changes.Man, so this is what it's like when Blizzard releases a WoW patch.I really didn't want to say anything for fear of fanboy retaliation, but yeah.
This Errata document looks almost EXACTLY like some of the 10 page long Diablo 3 patches and such that basically change how every class plays entirely (I remember at least one that changed how half of the Mage's abilities worked wholesale, on top of balance tweaks).
A huge chunk of my Crazy Character Gallery is going to have to be overhauled because of this overreach.
Over a dozen characters are going to require major rewrites. Several concepts have been completely crushed by this errata.
Boo I say. BOO!
This is how you know you've done something right.
Edit: Still reading through the errata document line by line - happy with everything I've seen so far, and everything I've read in this forum. Mind you, that excludes anything vague. I'm still happy I unsubscribed for this book last year, and quite pleased that much has been remedied.
Editx2: Hmm, now I want to take Divine Protection with my Carrion Crown Sorcerer.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Does anyone find it odd that the brawler went from almost never using shields to almost always using shields?
Not I, it is a good archetype and iconic for a commonly seen hero in other medias. People want to feel powerful and being Cap is really powerful.
Not I, it is a good archetype and iconic for a commonly seen hero in other medias. People want to feel powerful and being Cap is really powerful.
I'm not sure if you understood, but it seems like almost all brawlers are shield users now. Not just the shield champion. The shield champion is just better at throwing the shield. Even the pummeling charge brawlers should now be wearing shields.
Not I, it is a good archetype and iconic for a commonly seen hero in other medias. People want to feel powerful and being Cap is really powerful.I'm not sure if you understood, but it seems like almost all brawlers are shield users now. Not just the shield champion. The shield champion is just better at throwing the shield. Even the pummeling charge brawlers should now be wearing shields.
And yet, it remains wholly optional. It is not hard to obtain a very high AC even without a shield. This could be done for a number of reasons (most of which likely involve wanting to keep the hand free for this or that reason).
And yet, it remains wholly optional. It is not hard to obtain a very high AC even without a shield. This could be done for a number of reasons (most of which likely involve wanting to keep the hand free for this or that reason).
It's optional, but in the same way wearing light armor is optional. The brawler is an unarmed attack specialist, meaning the average one already had two free hands anyway.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
It's optional, but in the same way wearing light armor is optional. The brawler is an unarmed attack specialist, meaning the average one already had two free hands anyway.
And yet, it remains wholly optional. It is not hard to obtain a very high AC even without a shield. This could be done for a number of reasons (most of which likely involve wanting to keep the hand free for this or that reason).
And because they are proficient with the madu they have the option of reducing penalties to fighting defensively and using combat expertise. I'm already considering one for my pummeling style brawler.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really wish the errata was limited to fixing things that are broken (in the don't work sense) and buffing of underpowered features instead of a complete balance pass. A lot of things they nerfed just seem so bizarre to me (Animal Soul, Twist Away, Slashing Grace). I'd rather keep all of those as-is and deal with an overpowered Divine Protection that I can just ban instead of trying to communicate which errata I'd like to ignore to my playgroup.
I hope to get some communication from the design team soon about their intent with the pass and listen to community feedback.
At least we can easily guess why slashing grace got nerfed: You can use anything in your off hand with Dervish Dance, so why take it when SG was so much better?
At least we can easily guess why slashing grace got nerfed: You can use anything in your off hand with Dervish Dance, so why take it when SG was so much better?
How was it nerfed I see it saying remove One-handed from the description.
At least we can easily guess why slashing grace got nerfed: You can use anything in your off hand with Dervish Dance, so why take it when SG was so much better?How was it nerfed I see it saying remove One-handed from the description.
You can't flurry with it, attack with another weapon, or use your other hand at all. so you can't add in natural weapons, you can't use any kind of shield, or hold anything like a potion and definitely can't 2wf with it. This is the nerf
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They actually did fix the wide variety of problems with things that simply didn't work as written.
Really? I'm not seeing it. You can just go over to the thread where people were posting Errata issues, and see that many of them were not addressed... E.g. the Hunter's Ranger Tricks for Companion wasn't clarified re: how to deal with Ranger Tricks which assume they are being used by the Ranger ON the Companion, when the Companion is using them, and other similar problems with them. I'm not going to enumerate all of those, because they are already posted in that thread... Although it would be interesting if somebody did want to do that, and collate all the known issues that WEREN'T addressed. Which feels like a slap in the face of the people who bothered to care enough to bring such issues to Paizo's attention.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like making anything but a Str martial... in order to make a Dex martial you have a rediculous chain of hoops you have to go through...
Uh... Brawler? Both the base class and archetype varieties. As well as the Sohei Monk.Oh yay, light armour. /End sarcasm/
I want an unarmed character in real armour.Or mithral medium armor. Like a lot of classes use.
If you don't have any special rules forbiding light armor, then pretty much anyone can use a mithral breastplate- and without needing medium armor profiency for it.
Just use armor expert- it reduces armor check penalty to 0 for a mithral breastplate, which removes any negative effects of not being proficient in your armor.
In the end, that leaves brawler with good AC with its scaling bonus and the sohei...well, I am not using that archetype to tank, I use it for the ton of extra attack/damage options (and I might go with actual light armor just to get brawling armor- +2 attack/damage over +2 ac, basically). Armor for sohei is more simplification and allowing you to survive early on without turtling up your stats.
Faster rate and higher bonus... but, correct. (Still far better than the unarmed fighter archetype.)Doesn't that archetype only have One ability that even affects unarmed, and all that does is a weapon training for close weapons at a faster rate?
My fighter (brawler) wore heavy armor. I'd give that archetype a look...Directly, pretty much little else for unarmed
Indirectly, it is a lockdown master, allowing you to make stand still fairly powerful both in its bonus and ability to use it against...most forms of movement trying to escape you (due to the appropriately named no escape ability).
So making sure enemies can't get away is nice for getting full attacks off at least, which is usually fairly important for the TWF heavy unarmed builds. While pummeling charge can somewhat solve mobility issues, it actually got changed with this errata- from what I've been told, when you use it for a charge, it...
The Fighter (Brawler) also works incredibly well with a dip into a monk archetype like maneuver master or MoMS. You could probably do fun things with a Brawler class dip as well. For raw numbers, it is really solid, and has plenty of bonus feats to specialize in some maneuvers and what not as well.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Oh good they addressed divine protection!"
Reads: "Once per day..."
"Well looks like they made another awful feat."
So sick of pathfinder. 90% of the feats are crap. Most spells are useless. The ones that are good snap encounters and exploit mechanics. 90% of archetypes are trash. Whole classes are basically worthless. Trap option after trap option.
I feel like as I move farther and farther away from the light of fullcasting, suddenly all my abilities need to be worthless.
0/10
|
|
At least we can easily guess why slashing grace got nerfed: You can use anything in your off hand with Dervish Dance, so why take it when SG was so much better?
Because it costs one less feat to get, isn't always inferior, and I assume someone is just going to take it for flavor. The thing I can't understand is why, when fencing grace is still an option, that they won't/can't do anything about, that they made it so that you can't use anything in your off hand. All it's doing is forcing people to use one specific weapon, which is the same complaint people had with dervish dance.
I'm not too broken up about Divine Protection; it was only good for Oracles with the prereq's, and Oracles were the very last class that needed any help.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not too broken up about Divine Protection; it was only good for Oracles with the prereq's, and Oracles were the very last class that needed any help.
I just vomit a little when I read, "Once per day" in a feat. And then the effect is worse than some 1st level spells.
|
"Oh good they addressed divine protection!"
Reads: "Once per day..."
"Well looks like they made another awful feat."
So sick of pathfinder. 90% of the feats are crap. Most spells are useless. The ones that are good snap encounters and exploit mechanics. 90% of archetypes are trash. Whole classes are basically worthless. Trap option after trap option.
I feel like as I move farther and farther away from the light of fullcasting, suddenly all my abilities need to be worthless.
0/10
While I'll agree the new version of DP is near worthless I actually didn't have a problem with the pre nerf version due to all the requirements it had for it.
1) "5 ranks of Knowledge (Religion)" so at the very least you had to be a minimum of level 5 to take it.
2) "The Mystery, Blessings, or Domain class feature" so this limited what all characters could take it.
3) "Ability to cast 2nd level divine spells" so this further limited or delayed what all classes could take this.
4) Having a high enough Cha for the feat to be really good, when you roll for stats this probably wouldn't be anything to worry about but with point-buy or arrays you'd have to divert points from your primary scores if you're playing a class other than Oracle or Cleric.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The requirements of the old Divine Protection was the biggest issue with the feat; they ensured that only the Oracle could make effective use out of the feat, but for an Oracle it is trivially easy to get. Meaning that Oracles just had all good saves by level 5, no questions asked. On a class that was already the most SAD chassis in the game BEFORE the ACG.
|
Contributor
|
The requirements of the old Divine Protection was the biggest issue with the feat; they ensured that only the Oracle could make effective use out of the feat, but for an Oracle it is trivially easy to get. Meaning that Oracles just had all good saves by level 5, no questions asked. On a class that was already the most SAD chassis in the game BEFORE the ACG.
100% this.
|
|
The requirements of the old Divine Protection was the biggest issue with the feat; they ensured that only the Oracle could make effective use out of the feat, but for an Oracle it is trivially easy to get. Meaning that Oracles just had all good saves by level 5, no questions asked. On a class that was already the most SAD chassis in the game BEFORE the ACG.100% this.
I really don't like that they nerfed it just because it was an obvious choice feat for one class. Inquisitors, Druids, Rangers with the Divine Tracker archetype, and Warpriests could still get some use out of it if they chose to.