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I've been looking but I can't see anywhere that this is brought up, so if its been brought up before I apologize.
Can a kineticist use his kinetic blast in a full attack action, as in if his BAB is high enough can he use 2 kinetic blasts while making a full attack action? This question was brought up by a friend when I was talking to him about some of my planned tactics when I got my current kineticist up high enough, mixing the chain infusion with ride the blast and then appearing behind the group I just hit and hit them again with a spray blast. When I finished he asked the poignant question of "what kind of action is the kinetic blast?". The kinetic blast is a SPA, but since it is the primary attack feature of the class I would think that it could be used multiple times with a high enough BAB. I know that some of the infusions, I.E. kinetic blade, specify that the infusion can be used as part of a full attack action.
Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, as the answer would help me shape my tactics while playing the character in the future.
It isn't able to be used by default with the full attack action, but the damage does scale to a level where it is competitive.
If you're wanting to do more than one blast, you're gonna need metakinesis Quicken Spell-Like Ability on your first blast as a swift action. You'd get 1 more blast as a standard.
Note: this is from my understanding of the playtest version. I don't have final book yet but so I don't know what options are available for metakinesis and what levels they're available for final version.
Kinetic blade and whip infusions would allow one to use the blast as melee attacks and can full-attack with a high enough base attack bonus, haste effect, or other effects granting extra melee attacks. Those infusions aren't specific actions on their own but used as part of the attack/full-attack/charge/whatever melee attack action used to activate it.
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Iterative attacks was one of the things I remember people complaining about with regards to the 3.5 warlock. The Kineticist is ostensibly similar to the warlock but the scaling and in particular the burn mechanic should allow them to keep up with the power curve even without extra attacks per round.
Your "full attack" is a move action to reduce burn followed by an empowered attack.
Allowing iteratives with things like Plasma Blast travels way into Seriously Broken territory.
Well one can do interative plasma blast or other composite blasts with melee attacks (via kinetic blade/whip). But the burn taken for each attack is gonna kick the oomph out of any kineticist after that (not sure how overwhelming soul works yet though).
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Since composite is effectively a form infusion, you can't do it and do it and whip/blade at the same time, Ithink.Allowing iteratives with things like Plasma Blast travels way into Seriously Broken territory.Well one can do interative plasma blast or other composite blasts with melee attacks (via kinetic blade/whip). But the burn taken for each attack is gonna kick the oomph out of any kineticist after that (not sure how overwhelming soul works yet though).
Nope, you can totally do them together, and importantly, infusion specialization does not apply to composite's cost.
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*blink* wow, alright thanks for the quick response everyone. Kinda bummed about not being able to do multiple attacks like I hoped, but I can see the point. Thanks again for the quick response to my question.
In the playtest game I ran, our kineticist actually did basically the thing you were trying to do, just across a number of rounds.
It was still pretty effective.
Have you looked at the Elemental Annihilator yet?
Allowing iteratives with things like Plasma Blast travels way into Seriously Broken territory.Well one can do interative plasma blast or other composite blasts with melee attacks (via kinetic blade/whip). But the burn taken for each attack is gonna kick the oomph out of any kineticist after that (not sure how overwhelming soul works yet though).
Actually its really important to note that even in the playtest kinetic blade is active for the whole turn meaning you pay any cost related to the blast once and each attack applies damage and substances as a copy of the same blast, meaning it can force multiple saves against substances. This is still how it works in the official release as well
Actually its really important to note that even in the playtest kinetic blade is active for the whole turn meaning you pay any cost related to the blast once and each attack applies damage and substances as a copy of the same blast, meaning it can force multiple saves against substances. This is still how it works in the official release as wellAllowing iteratives with things like Plasma Blast travels way into Seriously Broken territory.Well one can do interative plasma blast or other composite blasts with melee attacks (via kinetic blade/whip). But the burn taken for each attack is gonna kick the oomph out of any kineticist after that (not sure how overwhelming soul works yet though).
I think Protoman knows that and is talking about taking burn round by round, but you might be right that he doesn't, and either way, it's an excellent thing to point out.
Wait, 3 attacks with composite blasts via kinetic blade would only have to pay for the burn once? And it becomes even more cost efficient with kinetic whips and AoOs?
Woo! Melee kineticists are awesome!
Wait, 3 attacks with composite blasts via kinetic blade would only have to pay for the burn once?
Woo! Melee kineticists are awesome!
4 with haste:), and then one of my mythic nonsense builds loves mythic haste those free super attacks.
Wait, 3 attacks with composite blasts via kinetic blade would only have to pay for the burn once? And it becomes even more cost efficient with kinetic whips and AoOs?
Woo! Melee kineticists are awesome!
Ride the Blast into a Composite Kinetic Blade is one hell of an opening move, that's for sure. I do wonder how physical blasts fare in the final edition, though; part of why Kinetic Blade was so good in the original version was that, with Vital Strike being optimal and therefore only needing the first and highest BAB attack to hit, it was trivially easy to hit CR-appropriate encounters. I don't have the book so I don't know if the new attack bonuses are high enough to compensate.
Though on the subject of kblade interactions, how does it work with quicken and double metakinesis
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Though on the subject of kblade interactions, how does it work with quicken and double metakinesis
You can't quicken it, since it's already not its own action (though I definitely have quickened a ride the blast and followed up with a blade). If you double it, you get two blades, which I suppose is the only way to use it with TWF, though this doesn't seem worth it to me overall, since you'd need feats you'd rarely use.
Though on the subject of kblade interactions, how does it work with quicken and double metakinesisYou can't quicken it, since it's already not its own action (though I definitely have quickened a ride the blast and followed up with a blade). If you double it, you get two blades, which I suppose is the only way to use it with TWF, though this doesn't seem worth it to me overall, since you'd need feats you'd rarely use.
Okay that's exactly what I expected, thanks!
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Okay that's exactly what I expected, thanks!Though on the subject of kblade interactions, how does it work with quicken and double metakinesisYou can't quicken it, since it's already not its own action (though I definitely have quickened a ride the blast and followed up with a blade). If you double it, you get two blades, which I suppose is the only way to use it with TWF, though this doesn't seem worth it to me overall, since you'd need feats you'd rarely use.
I love it when complex rules interactions do exactly what people expect them to do. That often means I've done something right!
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I'm having great difficulty seeing how a standard action could even pretend to have even as many digits - let alone keep up - as a full attack.
Just HOW MUCH was the kinetic improved over the old playtest, and is it actually sustainable (like any attack past level 1-2 is thanks to either insanely cheap ammunition or very soon infinite amounts through magic)?
Because that first version of the kinetic we were showed was on its way to stealing the crossbow's crown as "weakest weapon in the game", with "oh and you kill yourself to boot" as a special tier-6 class bonus.
Are people here being sarcastic, or is it actually a viable attacker now?
Given that the simple kinetic blast can do 10d6 by 19th level, plus whatever bonus it gets by its type, and composites do 20d6 I would say it stays a viable attacker. In addition to that you can use kinetic blade as has been pointed out to gain multiple melee attacks, possibly TWF as well if it can be doubled. Kinetic blade uses the full damage of the kinetic blast on each hit, so in the instance of just using simple blast you're doing up to 10d6 plus whatever in damage and up to 20d6 plus whatever for the composites. What about the class made it seem to be weak?
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4 + Int skills
Wild talents at every level, with half of them being utility talents, Extra Wild Talent feat, being a Con based caster. Life is good.
Kineticist, the class made to give people a reason to take vital strike.
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I've heard Vital Strike mentioned with the Kineticist a few times now. Is there an official ruling on whether or not it works? I guess it would be pretty broken if it did...
You'd need quadruple the output to make it a reasonable resource user too.
Have you taken into account to-hit chance? A weapon user will have lowered hit chances on iteratives, whereas the entire attack mentioned (20d6) is a touch attack at full BAB. Sure, an archer has a higher BAB, but also has to take lots of penalties to use Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim. Touch vs full AC is a big deal at those levels. If you use a physical blast, you go against full AC, but the damage is 10d6+10/20d6+20 instead. At those levels, you also have composite specialization, so you can afford to throw in an Empower. Now you're at 30d6+30. Oh, and you can do the whole thing as an AoE if you like. All without spending Burn.
From what I've heard, the base Kineticist cannot use Vital Strike, but the Elemental Annihilator (an archetype that trades out some of the Kineticist's utility for the ability to AM BIG DEEPS more) can.
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Actually, the wording for Kinetic Blade says:
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade.
So you could move up to someone and Vital Strike them with a Kinetic Blade attack action. That's probably even better than a full attack, since you can use your full BAB on the attack...
Woah, really? I thought Mark said they were going to change kinetic blade so that it didn't work with Vital Strike. If you're right, then that's great.
From what I've heard, the base Kineticist cannot use Vital Strike, but the Elemental Annihilator (an archetype that trades out some of the Kineticist's utility for the ability to AM BIG DEEPS more) can.
For all the good it does them. Vital Strike isn't worth it for bows, so it's not for Devastating Infusion either.
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Oooh wait, in the text for the Elemental Annihilator, it says:
Unlike with kinetic blade, the elemental annihilator can use Vital Strike with devastating infusion.
So the RAI are that VS shouldn't work with KB. I couldn't find that sort of RAW in the KB text, though.
(I suppose the intention is that KB doesn't give you an extremely dangerous melee weapon, but rather that it gives you a melee weapon through which to channel your blasts.)
Is Devastating Infusion just the base 1d6 or something? I believe the reason Vital Strike was so good for Kineticists in the playtest was that you had a lot more damage dice to work with than an archer does.
It's 1d8+Con, and doesn't gain more dice.
That isn't very devastating at all.
That isn't very devastating at all.
It is when you hit 6th and can full attack with it, including Two-Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot and such.
I'll take 3d8+15 over 3d6+5, and Elemental Annihilators get damage boosts above and beyond normal Kineticists as well (Weapon Spec is an option), while still retaining the normal Blast and Infusions if they want it.
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Yeah. Supposedly you'd pile up all the feats that archers and/or TWFers have to make it worthwhile. I'm not sure whether that works, given that you don't get to put magical bonuses on your 1d8 weapon. I'd much prefer the regular Kineticist and her utility talents.
EDIT: Thanks Rynjin, that makes things a bit clearer. The fact that the Con bonus, Weapon Spec etc. count several times makes a difference, I guess.
Elemental Annihilator is one you may as well take if you wanna toss electricity...Aerokineticists don't get very good utility beyond flight.
Why is that? It doesn't specify physical blasts, that I saw.
...Mark, why would you do this to me?
I just wanted to shoot lightning at people man
Maybe fire some time
Is that so much to ask?
Edit: Like, electricity doesn't even get any good Infusions to use with the regular Blast.
There's Thundering Infusion...and that's it on the lightning front. Everything else is air.
I'm legitimately kind of pissed off now. At myself for putting all that thought into that Way of the Wicked character that now doesn't work at all, mostly, but I don't see why it can't work with all the elements.