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What does which class your character is have anything to do with the realism or non-realism of falling damage?And this is a shining example of martials not getting nice things...
Something as small as fall damage. Because "to does not make sense" to survive a fall from terminal velocity, people want to put more things in to make it more dangerous. Why??? All u do is force the martial to be even more of a leech off the caster "hey.... can you cast feather fall on us?"
Because Casters are more able to avoid taking the damage because...magic.
Feather Fall is the lowest level option, and can be done from level 1 (although the concentration checks from falling make it not completely reliable). If casters can trivially survive unharmed the majority of the time from level 1 onwards, martials should probably be able to probably shrug it off at level 15,
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A Ring of Feather Falling only costs 2200gp. At level 15, I would expect everybody to keep one in their pocket just-in-case. With a fall of that height, you'd have plenty of time to put it on during the fall unless you're incapacitated already and if less than 1% of your WBL is too much for you, switch it to a 50gp potion.
Still, if you want the martials to have an easier time of it, no problem, just do it. Give them Air Step or Wind Walk if you like. Sounds fun to me, but not everyone wants that.
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Again, your solution is "Have a magical item," which ultimately translates to "You need to be this much of a spellcaster to survive/be effective."
Pathfinder is a fantasy role-playing game with abundant magic. Magic is a big part of the system's draw, because it sparks the imagination and bends the rules of reality as we know them. A fighter with the fortitude to shrug off a direct blow from a rune giant's adamantine warhammer, or a fall from orbit onto a pile of jagged rocks, or being swallowed by a kaiju, or getting shot in the face with a cannon IS magical. NOT realistic. It doesn't matter whether the game system SAYS it's magical or non-magical; it's all magical. It's fantasy, and that's okay.
If the meta-knowledge that a spellcaster touched that piece of equipment bothers you so much that you're unwilling to use it, an alternative could be arranged. The magical item does not have to come from a spell-caster at all; it could come from a magical creature, fey, outsider, mythic being, or have come into being over the course of long-time exposure to the energies of the cosmos.
If even that is "too magical" for you, just re-flavor that ring of feather falling to be a fancy re-usable parachute, or a system of gas jets that slow your descent and recharge via kinetic energy generated by your movement, or an ACME Portable Decelerator, or even a preternatural aura of dumb luck.
I am 100% okay with the idea of giving martial characters nice toys to play with (even as class features, instead of dipping in to WBL!), but I disagree with the idea that magic as a whole has to be neutered to get there. For the record, yes, I'm saying that magic should be available to all and that ideas of "realism" shouldn't be used to stymie martials' contributions to the game. Everyone should be able to have fun. It might take some house-rules, but that's okay and it doesn't need a complete rewrite and a hypothetical PF 2.0 to accomplish.
I don't want magic to be neutered, and I honestly have no idea how you got that idea, but the very concept that you need to have a magical item, be it made from handwavium or a wizard's table, to do something that Ted the Wizard of Middling-to-Low Intelligence is able to accomplish with what is a glorified cantrip, to be asinine.
If this is the same guy that can take multiple shots from a 25-foot monstrosity wielding a club roughly the size and weight of a large van, if not more, then why is it outside the realm of possibility that something like falling off of a cliff side and brushing it off can happen?
This is one of the major problems that make up the inequality debate. Ted can do this at level 1, while Sir Gregory the Mighty, champion of a thousand battles, and hero of the Kingdom of Wherever, level 20 Fighter, can never, ever do this without having a magic spell or item to allow it.
A Ring of Feather Falling only costs 2200gp. At level 15, I would expect everybody to keep one in their pocket just-in-case. With a fall of that height, you'd have plenty of time to put it on during the fall unless you're incapacitated already and if less than 1% of your WBL is too much for you, switch it to a 50gp potion.
Still, if you want the martials to have an easier time of it, no problem, just do it. Give them Air Step or Wind Walk if you like. Sounds fun to me, but not everyone wants that.
isn't terminal velocity 200 ft? pretty sure (besides immediate actions) that you fall 500 feet and then get to take your turn.
isn't terminal velocity 200 ft? pretty sure (besides immediate actions) that you fall 500 feet and then get to take your turn.A Ring of Feather Falling only costs 2200gp. At level 15, I would expect everybody to keep one in their pocket just-in-case. With a fall of that height, you'd have plenty of time to put it on during the fall unless you're incapacitated already and if less than 1% of your WBL is too much for you, switch it to a 50gp potion.
Still, if you want the martials to have an easier time of it, no problem, just do it. Give them Air Step or Wind Walk if you like. Sounds fun to me, but not everyone wants that.
Rules quote.
Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.
If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Acrobatics check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumps, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Acrobatics check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.
Falls onto yielding surfaces (soft ground, mud) also convert the first 1d6 of damage to nonlethal damage. This reduction is cumulative with reduced damage due to deliberate jumps and the Acrobatics skill.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.
It technically doesn't say that you fall 500ft and then get your turn, but if you can't cast for the first 500ft then the implication is that your turn only comes up after that far a distance.
Which makes sense - A fall from 200ft should take around 3.5 seconds and a fall from 500ft should take around 6 seconds. A turn cycle occurring every 500ft matches that fairly well.
In any case, I don't think that Freddy the fighter is going to have time to yank off his ring of protection and slip on a ring of feather fall any more than Will the wizard is going to have time to slap a Fly spell on themselves.
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It would be cool if there was a "Legendary Warrior" class that was basically a fighter than gains magical artifacts as a class feature...like Perseus.
I'd also like to see an "Indomitable Warrior" class that was like a Nega-Psychic or Anti-magic warrior...even to the point of generating lesser/greater globes of invulnerability as an Extraordinary ability.
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In any case, I don't think that Freddy the fighter is going to have time to yank off his ring of protection and slip on a ring of feather fall any more than Will the wizard is going to have time to slap a Fly spell on themselves.
... ughm... feather fall is an immediate action.
also, overland flight is hours long.
In any case, I don't think that Freddy the fighter is going to have time to yank off his ring of protection and slip on a ring of feather fall any more than Will the wizard is going to have time to slap a Fly spell on themselves.... ughm... feather fall is an immediate action.
also, overland flight is hours long.
Oh, I wasn't saying that wizards couldn't easily save themselves.
My point was that the rules don't say that a fighter can't swap rings in the time span of a 200ft fall, but if the wizard doesn't have enough time to cast a standard action spell then the fighter almost certainly won't have enough time to pull a ring/potion out and stick it on or chug a potion (which is a full round worth of actions).
In any case, I don't think that Freddy the fighter is going to have time to yank off his ring of protection and slip on a ring of feather fall any more than Will the wizard is going to have time to slap a Fly spell on themselves.... ughm... feather fall is an immediate action.
also, overland flight is hours long.
Oh, I wasn't saying that wizards couldn't easily save themselves.
My point was that the rules don't say that a fighter can't swap rings in the time span of a 200ft fall, but if the wizard doesn't have enough time to cast a standard action spell then the fighter almost certainly won't have enough time to pull a ring/potion out and stick it on or chug a potion (which is a full round worth of actions).
ahhh, okay.
On the time taken to fall, granted, I should have looked up the rule rather than go off of memory. If I remember correctly though, the example scenario was a fighter willingly jumping off because it was easier than climbing down the path, so the ring or potion still works fine if you use them before you jump.
@Nocte ex Mortis:
I did say that I was open to the idea of having such powers be granted by class abilities instead of having to dip into WBL, so it seems we're either arguing semantics or just misunderstanding one another at this point. My argument in the last post was simply that regardless of how the fighter gets the ability, it's still "magic". Whether it's an item, a (Su) or an (Ex), it's still not something that happens in real life. So yes, I think you need to have some magical justification for doing something magical. It doesn't need to be a spell and it doesn't need to be a magic item by the rules but it still counts as magic in my mind. Some people have a problem with this and think it sounds too much like a comic book, anime or "wuxia" movie, but I do not.
I would deem that perposely taking a swim in lava is doing a self CdG and I'd apply the full [120] pts of damage. The same with jumpping off a 200' cliff 'because its the fasting down'.
What if someone jumped off a 10 ft cliff? Why is a 200 ft cliff different? Because you the DM deem it to be suicidal? What if the character is 10th level? With 16 CON, Toughness and your favoured class bonus and 18 levels in fighter you will be able to brush off 200 damage. Will you arbitrarily increase the damage?
What if someone jumped down onto a ledge but misses? Are you going to say they were deliberately trying to kill themselves? That's what a self induced coup de grace is, after all.
Also you've now conceded 12th level fighters are superheroes. So why restrict them to what people in the real world can do in every way EXCEPT for falling off cliffs?
Again, your solution is "Have a magical item," which ultimately translates to "You need to be this much of a spellcaster to survive/be effective."
Pathfinder classes are "balanced" around having access to magical items. If you can't accept that, then feel free to either implement one of the optional rules or a houserule or play a different game. But it is a central conceit of the base Pathfinder game.
And at least 1 class* is still competent without any items at all. And others that only need a feat for it.
*the sorcerer, others at least need eschew materials to be item independent
I'd say it does a pretty poor job of it when some classes are totally dependent on having gear items T, U, W, X, Y and Z in order to keep up with the monsters, while other classes only need items Y and Z :P
Hence the quotation marks around the word balanced. Magic items have been used to "balance" classes since AD&D (if not before). It's why 3rd edition had that infernal WBL chart and why different items cost different prices. As awful as it is, it was still an attempt at balancing the classes.
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...Stuff..
The long answer. If I wanted to play superheros I'd play a superhero genre based game.
Now this is the way "I" see things and I couldn't give a f+%$ whether you think its wrong thinking. When you accidentally fall your adrenaline is rushing and your mind is going "gotta grab onto something! gotta stop!", so you get the 'luck factor' to help save you if possible. The 'Luck Factor' is rolling the damage dice. If you just jump off a cliff because you "know" it cant kill you and its the fastest way down, I remove the 'luck factor' and just apply the maximum damage. Same thing with walking into lava as opposed to falling into it.
Also I have always though that capping the dice at 20d6/200' was lame. It wasn't so bad in the earlier editions of the game since 20d6 was alot of damage back then, a 20 lv fighter with an 18 con would have a 168 hp MAXIMUM. 20d6 would kill most character.
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YesWill you arbitrarily increase the damage?
Cool. When you play houseruled Pathfinder, you're not playing superheroes. When people play something more closely resembling what's written in the book, they are playing superheroes.
What was your point? That GMs can implement houserules to change how Pathfinder plays? I'm all for sensible adjudications. But this isn't a way of interpreting the rules or speaking where the rules remain silent. This is outright houseruling. Which is fine. But not really relevant to discussing how people play the game when they don't use your personal houserules?
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YesWill you arbitrarily increase the damage?
Cool. When you play houseruled Pathfinder, you're not playing superheroes. When people play something more closely resembling what's written in the book, they are playing superheroes.
What was your point? That GMs can implement houserules to change how Pathfinder plays? I'm all for sensible adjudications. But this isn't a way of interpreting the rules or speaking where the rules remain silent. This is outright houseruling. Which is fine. But not really relevant to discussing how people play the game when they don't use your personal houserules?
Just about every post in this thread is personal houserules. The OP was asking why was realism part of the game 'because Fantasy' but of course it got way off base. At this point I have no idea how it got to be about game style, my 'side' with more realism type style and their 'side' superheroes/anime-esque/action movie type style.
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Just about every post in this thread is personal houserules. The OP was asking why was realism part of the game 'because Fantasy' but of course it got way off base.
There is no houseruling when using 20d6 as the maximum damage that can be dealt with damage. The fact people, when using the rules in the game, can fall off a cliff and then stand up and continue walking, is not a houserule and is not realistic. Even when implementing your "maximum damage, no rolling required" houserule.
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Again, your solution is "Have a magical item," which ultimately translates to "You need to be this much of a spellcaster to survive/be effective."This attitude, along with the "leech off the casters" one truly baffles me. It's a team, not a collection of individuals. And wealthy by level is a prat of the entire character. Mages use it to enhance certain abilities, fighters use it for enhancement and to obviate weaknesses. Does the Mage get denied his intellect boosters, meta magic items, ability to transcribe spells, et al, does the cleric get denied their pearls of power? Why is the fighter presumed to have to be naked for these comparisons?
The arcane caster only needs his spellbook (a class feature) and/or a spell component pouch (which he could ignore with a feat) to be strong. The divine caster needs a holy symbol in addition to the component bag. (another 10go or so) Sure, he is not as strong as he would be with all his gear but he can stand his ground using only his class abilities.
A typical Fighter who has only his class abilities and a single 5gp non-magical item is close to useless.
Again, your solution is "Have a magical item," which ultimately translates to "You need to be this much of a spellcaster to survive/be effective."This attitude, along with the "leech off the casters" one truly baffles me. It's a team, not a collection of individuals. And wealthy by level is a prat of the entire character. Mages use it to enhance certain abilities, fighters use it for enhancement and to obviate weaknesses. Does the Mage get denied his intellect boosters, meta magic items, ability to transcribe spells, et al, does the cleric get denied their pearls of power? Why is the fighter presumed to have to be naked for these comparisons?
The problem is more that the Fighter must have support in the form of either magic items or a pocket caster in order to do their job. Replace the Fighter with an Inquisitor, or a Warpriest, or a Druid, or a Cleric, or a Magus, or etc etc and there stops being a problem with "leeching".
The dislike for "Leeching" can be explained by this. Essentially, there is a fundamental difference between the two scenarios of a)class X gets augmented by teamwork and b)class X is dependent on teamwork. In the first, if the support doesn't want to immediately help the class then that is ok. They can drop BFC or debuff or take some action related to an encounter specific gimmick, or whatever else they want. The class would like the support, but they can get by without it. In the other, if the support wants to do anything other than prop up the frontliner, the class is left ineffectual for as long as the support is off doing other things. It restricts what actions the support can take because another character nigh demands that they assist them, and it also restricts what actions the class can take since they can only participate in many encounters when the support feels like allowing them to. Plus it puts the support PCs in the nasty situation where if they go down, the party TPKs because nobody can actually handle the encounter without all the PCs being up while crucial buffs get passed around. If the PCs are decent by themselves but still more than the sum of their parts together, then if half of them get taken out through bad luck the others have a good chance of pulling through.
As for the dislike for item dependancy...lets put it this way. A level 20 wizard with a few hundred GP worth of items is still a deadly threat for anything near their CR. A level 20 fighter...not so much. When a class is highly gear dependant, they essentially have to beg the GM and any crafters in the group to allow or provide the gear they NEED to have to be effective for their level. Classes that aren't gear dependant can get by with almost nothing. This creates problems when a GM doesn't want to do things like closely follow WBL or allow free crafting and purchasing of magic items. If the GM decides to go ahead and disallow things that gear dependent classes rely on, they end up making class imbalance worse, because the classes that really need magic items are usually also the worst classes. Plus the players with those classes aren't enjoying it when the wizard and druid have to blow 2 of their 20 spells per day getting things they would prefer receiving from items while they can barely function without things to patch up their weaknesses. Not to mention the fact that a lot of people don't like it when their characters are only successful because they look like a christmas tree under detect magic. This is another case of augmenting=good, dependance=bad.
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Further more,it creates the really annoying problem of FORCING OTHER PLAYERS to work around you.
Like, with older editions, many people hated being the cleric because ONLY the cleric could heal and the game was much more brutal so healing was needed more. So you wer pigeon holed into being a healer, regardless of your backstory or character concept.
Or some more examples, maybe i want to make a scout sorcerer (fetchling Shadow sorcerer). As such, i would be picking spells based on my build amd idea, but if lets say we had an entitlist fighter, he would get mad if I didn't provide fly and Haste, even rhthough i am not a buff bot. Or a Summoner. Or how about a enchanter? Yes it is a team game but I should not have to be forced into playing roles outside my character just because another player wants To play a fighter...
Strip any spell with a gold cost from the wizard or sorcerers repertoire, and spell which causes ability drain that someone else might have to get rid of or would require a magic item, any spells whatsoever beyond the new spells granted per level, let's see ...
They would still do a hell of a lot better than the Fighter against anything which doesn't play along with the Fighter's combat style of "run up to it and start smacking".
Something like a druid is barely bothered. Most of the things they get from items can be replicated with their spells. They just can't get through as many encounters because they are burning through spell slots to replace their missing wealth(as opposed to fighters, who can't get through any encounters if those encounters include some of the myriad ways of shutting down the ground based charge into full attack routine so many martials rely on).
Also can't presume a single buff or summon is up at start of combat, you have t apply them all in combat.
?? but several are hours long
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the game just describes a level 9 fighter as a level 9 fighter not a level 9 superheroic fighter.
For the record, the 1st edition AD&D Players Handbook, under level titles for the fighter, has "Hero" at 4th level and "Superhero" at 8th level. That's verbatim. So, yeah, the game does indeed describe a fighter as a superhero -- at one level lower than the one you cite.
Also can't presume a single buff or summon is up at start of combat, you have t apply them all in combat.
That is...a little insane. Not even hours/level ones?
If I was trying to solo like this, I would probably play something like a Cleric or a Druid. Druids can have wildshape up for hours. They can be a dinosaur 24/7 from level 6 onwards with a single trait (Beast of the Society). Are you seriously going to say that they have to spend an action in combat because...???
Can I insist that the fighter don his fullplate/mithril breastplate in combat as well? Seems just as reasonable, right?
No. You've already said he can't have that mithril breastplate, because it would be acquired by wealth, so ...Also can't presume a single buff or summon is up at start of combat, you have t apply them all in combat.That is...a little insane. Not even hours/level ones?
If I was trying to solo like this, I would probably play something like a Cleric or a Druid. Druids can have wildshape up for hours. They can be a dinosaur 24/7 from level 6 onwards with a single trait (Beast of the Society). Are you seriously going to say that they have to spend an action in combat because...???
Can I insist that the fighter don his fullplate/mithril breastplate in combat as well? Seems just as reasonable, right?
you misunderstand, we're saying paying for an item is not an excuse for not needing to balance the classes...
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A character's wealth is part of the character.
yes and it doesn't balance the classes since WBL is equal, you can remove it and compare the actual classes more easily. this is how to analyze actual issues in a system, you remove the parts that are the same because it heightens the differences where there are differences.
No. You've already said he can't have that mithril breastplate, because it would be acquired by wealth, so ...Also can't presume a single buff or summon is up at start of combat, you have t apply them all in combat.That is...a little insane. Not even hours/level ones?
If I was trying to solo like this, I would probably play something like a Cleric or a Druid. Druids can have wildshape up for hours. They can be a dinosaur 24/7 from level 6 onwards with a single trait (Beast of the Society). Are you seriously going to say that they have to spend an action in combat because...???
Can I insist that the fighter don his fullplate/mithril breastplate in combat as well? Seems just as reasonable, right?
True. No mithril Breastplate.
So he has to don his regular breastplate/fullplate in combat, right? Or go along with a pitiful AC. That's "fair" I guess, although what hours/level buffs has to do with discrepency in wealth dependency is beyond me. Hours/level buffs are the ones casters use even with plenty of wealth lying around. You don't see many casters spending big bucks for wings of flying, or +3 haramakis when they have mage armor and overland flight. Hours/level buffs will be up 99% of the time regardless of wealth, just like fighters will have their main armor donned 99% of the time regardless of wealth (the exception would mostly be nighttime ambushes, and in that case the casters don't get their buffs without spending rounds, and fighters get a chainshirt at best unless they blew a feat on endurance).
Except that doesn't work. Because different things are being done with the wealth, and the problems that crop up are ones that won't actually exist in the game. By the time mages can easily cast fly without worrying about losing the spell slot, the fighter likely has access to fly anyway, etcetera. It's creating false problems.
that's my point, it shows how the class is unable to stand on it;s own without WBL, this shows that there is a flaw in the system. a wizard can get the same item to fly and never have to spend spell slots on flying as well. it's simply not an equal exchange.
Winged boots. Next.They also don't have to choose between those wings of flying and +5 to all saves.
You don't see many casters spending big bucks for wings of flying, or +3 haramakis when they have mage armor and overland flight.
Ok, now you fail your Save or Die by 5. Shame about that. The caster on the other hand is fine.
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This is one of the major problems that make up the inequality debate. Ted can do this at level 1, while Sir Gregory the Mighty, champion of a thousand battles, and hero of the Kingdom of Wherever, level 20 Fighter, can never, ever do this without having a magic spell or item to allow it.The system, including classes, is built on the assumption that characters will acquire magic items. If you see this as a problem, UnChained! just gave you a whole book full of ways to adjust the game, depending on what you codify as an end goal.
it still puts the wizard miles ahead of the fighter in terms of utility and use for the party.