The big realism question

[Mavrickindigo]

It seems to me that people like to point out Paizo employees making comments around the likes of "Martial characters can't do that, because it is physically impossible."

Has anyone ever directly addressed the big question of "why do Martial characters in a fantasy rpg have to adhere to realism?" Isn't this fantasy?

If there has been a definitive answer to this, I would love to read on it.

[Milo v3]

Quote:

It seems to me that people like to point out Paizo employees making comments around the likes of "Martial characters can't do that, because it is physically impossible."

I actually have never seen that.

[Cuuniyevo]

Short answer: They don't.

Long answer: The rules have to support multiple play-styles and allow each group of roleplayers to find their own entertainment. To quote the very first part of the Core Rulebook…

Quote:

The Most Important Rule

The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.

In other words, some people on this forum say that things should be kept realistic but you don't have to agree with them or accept their opinion as fact.

[kyrt-ryder]

For every realism nut on this board there's a fantastic fanatic like me who wants Martials to level in awesomeness right alongside casters all the way to level 20.

[Orville Redenbacher]

They are working on an answer over here.

[My Self]

There's some sort of built-in assumption about casting and martials. Martials do their stuff better than regular people, Casters do stuff that is entirely different than regular mortals. Magic is what lets the d6 man fight the d10 man (Except commoners). Ideally, this would be balanced, but being magically different unchains casters from the expectation that they merely do better than regular people. Martial characters are not unchained from that expectation. Barbarians are faster, stronger, and tougher to kill than your average Joe. That is normal and what you would expect. But Wizards are often physically weaker (STR dump, anybody?) and squishier and aren't skilled with weapons to boot. But through the power fantasy of magic, they use their intelligence to overcome martial power. This is cool, but this is also where the problem starts. Magic sidesteps these boundaries, thus acknowledging that these boundaries exist and that non magic-users should go keep to themselves in non-magic land.

Martials are "realistic" because casters are by definition not realistic.

[Jacob Saltband]

'Fantasy' covers a very broad range of things. It could be as little as the 1980's Excalibur movie which was 11th century europe with (kinda minor) magic, to outlandish high tech equivalent magic societies and space travel.

[kyrt-ryder]

Jacob Saltband wrote:

'Fantasy' covers a very broad range of things. It could be as little as the 1980's Excalibur movie which was 11th century europe with (kinda minor) magic, to outlandish high tech equivalent magic societies and space travel.

In Pathfinder [without significant houserules] the level of Magic is defined by the level of play, with the game naturally becoming a freakshow around level 9-13 [where in that range depends on the nature of your players and the classes they are using.]

[My Self]

Wouldn't it be awesome if, at a decent level, your paladin/fighter/barbarian martial was such a paragon of awesome that they could scare away enemies just be looking mean, kinda like the fear aura ability? Or if you got improved action economy past 11th level, like being able to take additional actions, eventually totaling up to maybe 3 full rounds worth of actions at level 20? It's not exactly 100% reality breaking. I mean, the turn-based system broke reality first. I'm just taking a baseball bat to the remaining shards.

[kyrt-ryder]

Or Sunder an Iceburg [or a Mountain like Sir Roland did]

[Wrath]

My Self wrote:

Wouldn't it be awesome if, at a decent level, your paladin/fighter/barbarian martial was such a paragon of awesome that they could scare away enemies just be looking mean, kinda like the fear aura ability? Or if you got improved action economy past 11th level, like being able to take additional actions, eventually totaling up to maybe 3 full rounds worth of actions at level 20? It's not exactly 100% reality breaking. I mean, the turn-based system broke reality first. I'm just taking a baseball bat to the remaining shards.

Do you need a mechanic for this? Reputation alone could easily be enough to scare armies away at a certain point. For both martials and casters.

If you're fighting something that's similar challenge rating to you, then you just aren't that scary without particular feats or skills (dazzling display etc). DM's set the initial attitude of all NPC's in regards to how they feel about the PC's. Terrified is an acceptable level for a DM to set if the reputation warrants it.

If you're after action economy stuff then the unchained system has a pretty nifty little one. Though it affects things pretty dramatically.

Or, like Cunniyevo suggested above, use rule 0. House rule extra actions if you want. Be careful of how that affects the monsters or NPC baddies though. Players tend to love it when their characters are all powerful but get upset when the baddies wipe them in one round due to having three actions of full attacks.

Balance is not an easy thing to achieve in this game. Kirth Girsen has been writing a thing called Kirth Finder on these boards for a few years now. 10 000 posts and he's still modifying it because it still isn't what he's after. Paizo's system is actually pretty balanced unless you start pushing to the extreme edges.

House rules are the thing really.

[Casual Viking]

Up to level 6 is Conan. Anything beyond that is Batman.

[Mavrickindigo]

There's a rather infamous discussion with SKR when he worked here that went something like "Why can't a fighter reload a crossbow and talk at the same time?"

and SKR was like "why can't you?"

then someone else was like "why can't you, SKR, cast a quickened fireball, a fireball, and drop to prone in 6 seconds?"

and he was like "Because I'm not a wizard"

for some reason, people who worked on Pathfinder, like SKR, liked to keep things realistic. I remember reading one thing when someone was developing a martial feat and they tried to wrap a rope around their arm to see how fast a human can realistically do the action, instead of thinking about game balance. Not sure who it was, but it means that it is there.

[Neurophage]

Milo v3 wrote:

Quote:

It seems to me that people like to point out Paizo employees making comments around the likes of "Martial characters can't do that, because it is physically impossible."

I actually have never seen that.

You don't remember that time a Paizo employee (I don't remember who. Maybe Jason B.) made a blog post about how their inability to catch a mouse in their hand after tying the cord to their wrist was proof that fantastically-skilled Gunslingers shouldn't be allowed to use weapon cords to shoot their guns multiple times in one full attack? Personally, my problem with the weapon cord nonsense is that I don't see a problem with them reloading their weapons even when their hands are full because reloading a pistol while juggling another is just stylish.

[DM_Blake]

Casual Viking wrote:

Up to level 6 is Conan. Anything beyond that is Batman.

Bingo!

That's the answer to the OP's question.

Fantasy as a genre has traditionally NOT had superheroes in it. Those few who were, they were usually spellcasters. Traditionally.

Then there is this other genre full of superhero characters. What's it called? Oh, yeah, the superhero genre. That's where Superman and the Hulk and probably even Batman and Wolverine belong.

There is yet another genre that is kind of like Fantasy, but slightly different: Mythology. Characters in this genre are usually gods, partially gods, or at least favored and/or gifted by the gods so that they literally are far above mortal men. It kind of feels like fantasy, full of heroic quests and monster slaying, but with that angle of godly intervention to make everything so much more superheroic.

Recently a new genre has appeared from Japan where you see superhero fantasy (or superhero sci-fi or superhero noir or superhero horror or superhero adult sex stories, etc.). All this anime stuff really has carved out its own niche, but it crosses over between superhero and whatever other genre each particular story seems to align with.

Pathfinder is not billing itself as a Superhero game. There are Superhero games out there. Hero System is excellent, way way way way way better at that kind of thing than Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is not billing itself as a Mythology game. There are mythology games out there, such as Exalted, that do a much better job of presenting that kind of experience.

Pathfinder is not billing itself as an Anime game, though occasionally its art seems at least inspired by Anime. There are game systems out there that cater to Anime and, I'm sure, are much better at it than Pathfinder.

Pathfinder IS a fantasy game system. And, traditionally, fantasy heroes, particularly martial heroes, don't do superhero stuff. Aragorn, Conan, Fafhrd, John Carter, Elric, John Snow, King Arthur, and many more, did not have superhero powers. Batman and Superman belong in Superhero games, Hercules and Perseus belong in Mythology games, and Goku and Naruto belong in Anime games.

Does it have to be this way? MUST Pathfinder limit martials to the level of King Arthur, Aragorn, and Conan?

Of course not.

But that's how the game is presented, that's what the rules support, more or less, and that's what most of us probably expect when we sit down to play Pathfinder.

Those who want something else have other options. Or they can houserule Pathfinde rto be just what they really want.

But for now, Pathfinder has its niche and Paizo doesn't seem eager to change it.

[Kthulhu]

Milo v3 wrote:

Quote:

It seems to me that people like to point out Paizo employees making comments around the likes of "Martial characters can't do that, because it is physically impossible."

I actually have never seen that.

There's the infamous instance of the weapon cords. Apparently since a sedentary game designer can't wrap a mouse cord around his arm and pop the mouse directly into his hand on the first try, it's also deemed to be impossible for highly trained warriors.

So in that case, it's beyond "Martials can't do it because it's physically impossible". It devolved into "Martials can't do it because it's difficult for ME to do it".

If they wanna play that game, then I rule that the entire Golarion system is blanketed in a massive dead-magic zone. This ruling will be overturned when a Paizo employee can provide undeniable proof that they have successfully cast a magical spell in real life.

EDIT: ninja'd by Neurophage (among others)

[Kthulhu]

Mavrickindigo wrote:

There's a rather infamous discussion with SKR when he worked here that went something like "Why can't a fighter reload a crossbow and talk at the same time?"

and SKR was like "why can't you?"

then someone else was like "why can't you, SKR, cast a quickened fireball, a fireball, and drop to prone in 6 seconds?"

and he was like "Because I'm not a wizard"

If I had been involved in that discussion at the time, I probably would have gotten a post deleted, and possibly a temporary ban for my response to that. The PG version would have been something along these lines:

"And I'm not a fighter, dumbass."

[Larkspire]

Seems like superhero fantasy anime is the closest to what Pathfinder is now..Makes me think of Berserk, and The Record of Lodoss War.
For me "Realism" just means the setting has internally consistent physics...not necessarily the same physics we have in our world...but things need to make sense in the cosmology.
"calibrating your expectations" by Jason Alexander(?) does a good job of covering levels one thru 5...after that we are in Super/Myth/Anime territory.

[Kthulhu]

I think that at the very minimum, MID-LEVEL martial characters should be on an equal level with Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, John Henry, and other characters from "tall tales".

[Jiggy]

Mavrickindigo wrote:

Has anyone ever directly addressed the big question of "why do Martial characters in a fantasy rpg have to adhere to realism?" Isn't this fantasy?

Would this be helpful?

In the linked post, I wrote:

Ultimately, having a "fantasy" setting just means there are things in the setting that go beyond reality. In a sense, the setting has two types of things in it: the mundane (that which is comparable to reality) and the fantastic (that which exceeds reality).

Now, different fantasy settings (which, remember, means "settings in which some things go beyond reality") will have different ways of determining how someone (or something) is allowed to exceed reality, to make the jump from being mundane to being fantastic.

In some settings, the necessary element to move from the mundane to the fantastic is simply magic. The Harry Potter universe is a perfect example: the fantasy setting is literally "reality plus magic". If you're a spellcaster (or magical creature), you're part of the fantasy story. If you're nonmagical, you're part of the mundane background; you're what the reader/viewer compares the magic to in order to see how much more fantastic it is than you are.

In other settings, a person could exceed reality and move from the category of "mundane" to the category of "fantastic" by any number of means: magic, training, enlightenment, divine parentage, and so forth. This type of setting is where you see people like Pecos Bill, who could lasso a tornado just by virtue of being a badass. Thus, his badassery was able to elevate him from "mundane" (realistic) to "fantastic" (beyond reality).

Both types of settings are fine. They tell different types of stories, and neither can really fill in for the other.

But there's an extra complication when you're talking about a game.

See, in a book or film or TV show, you can mix fantastic characters with mundane characters as you please, because you can carefully sculpt the action to have the result you want. In Avatar: the Last Airbender, the setting is of the first kind I described (only magic gets to exceed reality and be "fantastic"). However, the core group of protagonists includes both fantastic and mundane characters—there's even an episode about one of the mundane characters dealing with that gap. But since it's non-game fiction, the authors were able to create circumstances where the mundane characters could contribute meaningfully to the story through clever scripted use of circumstantial carefully-placed resources.

But in a fantasy game, that's a LOT harder to pull off. Even if you carefully sculpt situations where the muggle can help save Hogwarts, it will often feel hollow and contrived. Typically, it's no fun to have one player playing a fantasy hero and another player playing a mundane, non-fantastic character in the same game.

The ideal, then, is for every player character to be able to be "fantastic", to exceed reality. It doesn't matter which kind of setting you're using or what the requirement is for moving from mundane to fantastic; it just matters that each player has equal access to it. If exceeding reality requires a gift from the gods, then every player character should receive that gift. If exceeding reality requires being taught by a fantastic mentor, then every player character should have such a mentor. If exceeding reality requires access to magic, then every player character should have access to magic.

So again, it doesn't matter whether or not magic is the only way to go beyond reality and into fantasy. All that matters is that every player character gets to go there. The setting's definition of fantasy must be something within every player's reach.

And that's where the problem comes in: people who want a setting where X is required to exceed reality, but where not every player gets to have X. In the case of discussing Pathfinder, X is usually magic: people say that they want their fantasy to be defined as requiring magic in order to be fantastic (which is fine) but then fail to realize that some game options lack the very thing they defined as necessary for fantasy and are therefore by definition not fantasic!

The end result is this: if you want a setting where only magic can exceed reality, then fighters are not fantasy heroes, and you're just fooling yourself to say they are. If you want nonmagical characters to be capable of fantasy, then you have to allow nonmagical things to "go fantastic," to exceed reality. You've got to pick your direction and commit; trying to claim one setting while enforcing the mechanics of the other is why we keep having these arguments.

So you see, the "big realism question" is not "Isn't this fantasy?", it's "Which type of fantasy is this?"

[Neurophage]

Let us never forget the day when King Arthur became the product of fantasy rather than legend.

[Kthulhu]

Eh, he's always been a product of fantastic legend.

[Anzyr]

Jiggy wrote:

Amazing summary.

One note I'd like to add. The reason you see all these martial v. casters thing is because Pathfinder is trying to mix two different types of fantasy that are incompatible.

[Neurophage]

Anzyr wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Amazing summary.

One note I'd like to add. The reason you see all these martial v. casters thing is because Pathfinder is trying to mix two different types of fantasy that are incompatible.

This. Most fantasy literature spellcasters are way more limited in what they can do than D&D casters. Usually, the big spells like Wish, Gate or Time Stop take rally huge rituals with at least a couple of participants to complete and, even then, they usually only work once. If the casters get to eventually be Zeus and Odin, what's wrong with the martials getting to eventually be Heracles or Siegfried?

[Jiggy]

Anzyr wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Amazing summary.

One note I'd like to add. The reason you see all these martial v. casters thing is because Pathfinder is trying to mix two different types of fantasy that are incompatible.

Because Pathfinder is written by a lot of people, and is based on a game written by a different group of people, which in turn was an overhaul of a game written by yet another (but perhaps overlapping) group of people, and so forth. And I'd wager a guess that not all of those people agree on which type of fantasy Pathfinder is (and that many never even considered this particular question). Thus, all the eclectic content of the game represents wildly different expectations of what kind of fantasy game it is. It's a bit schizophrenic, so to speak.

[kyrt-ryder]

DM_Blake wrote:

Pathfinder is not billing itself as a Superhero game. There are Superhero games out there. Hero System is excellent, way way way way way better at that kind of thing than Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is not billing itself as a Mythology game. There are mythology games out there, such as Exalted, that do a much better job of presenting that kind of experience.

Looks at the Spell List

Sure had me fooled.

Anzyr wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Amazing summary.

One note I'd like to add. The reason you see all these martial v. casters thing is because Pathfinder is trying to mix two different types of fantasy that are incompatible.

Technically it's not so much that Pathfinder IS two incompatible types.

It's that one type of character levels out of one type of fantasy into another that is incompatible in the one in which the game started.

Up through level four Martials and Full Casters are basically playing the same game. Sure first and level spells do awesome stuff but it doesn't really break into a new genre until 3rd level spells IMO.

[Milo v3]

DM_Blake wrote:

Bingo!

That's the answer to the OP's question.

Fantasy as a genre has traditionally NOT had superheroes in it. Those few who were, they were usually spellcasters. Traditionally.

Then there is this other genre full of superhero characters. What's it called? Oh, yeah, the superhero genre. That's where Superman and the Hulk and probably even Batman and Wolverine belong.

There is yet another genre that is kind of like Fantasy, but slightly different: Mythology. Characters in this genre are usually gods, partially gods, or at least favored and/or gifted by the gods so that they literally are far above mortal men. It kind of feels like fantasy, full of heroic quests and monster slaying, but with that angle of godly intervention to make everything so much more superheroic.

... How is mythology not fantasy????? How is doctor strange not fantasy? How is spiderman not fantasy with his power coming from mystical spider totems, and with vampires hunting him down? How is mythology not fantasy????

[Kthulhu]

Comic books are modern mythology.

[Larkspire]

It's like PF and D&D etc...depict the "Ascension fantasy" where the primary protagonist goes from Chump to Champ over the story arc....getting drastically more powerful as time goes on...like Neo ( or other "Chosen")
The odd twist is that every PC is an aspirant demi-god who is the hero of their own story...
This is also the story arc of most super heroes....regular chump gets some powers and then they grow by leaps and bounds.
It makes me wonder if there's a TV trope for the "Rags to riches" super team.

[Idle Champion]

DM_Blake wrote:

Fantasy as a genre has traditionally NOT had superheroes in it. Those few who were, they were usually spellcasters. Traditionally.

Then there is this other genre full of superhero characters. What's it called? Oh, yeah, the superhero genre. That's where Superman and the Hulk and probably even Batman and Wolverine belong.

Superheroes and fantasy heroes is a narrow distinction. Superman was, by the admission of his authors, intended as a sort of modern Moses. After making the Incredible Hulk, Stan Lee made the Mighty Thor because he thought a god in the myth, legend, and fantasy style was the only reasonable way to introduce a more powerful character.

It is quite easy to interpret mythical heroes as superheroes, largely because 'superhuman or superpowered heroes' is exactly what they were. Perseus is probably the best 'ancient superhero' type, with his 'all-around good guy' persona, his origin story, the many deeds that weren't part of his central quest, his divine armoury, and his extraordinary physical advantages. Casters were rarely central heroes, tending to keep to the outside of a story - casters were often also knowledge brokers, and knowledge brokers don't get to be the central hero (the King Arthur/Merlin dynamic) because it interrupts the 'audience and character share moments of discovery' aspect of a heroic narrative, and because of the perceived effort required to be heroic:
The knight shows up and goes to heroic efforts to slay the dragon, and everyone claps. The wizard shows up and has the dragon contained quickly and neatly, and everyone is impressed but slightly nonplussed. The knight's effort was visible, but the sixteen years of rigorously transforming his mind into a trap for arcane power is the hard part for the wizard - not the dragonslaying.

The issue isn't incompatible fantasy - sword and sorcery go together like cheese and onions. The issue is how in compressing the fantasy to be playable, the thing that got simplified and accelerated the most was magic, not combat. Fast casting, plenty of it, readily accessible material components, ability to benefit from more than one magical bonus of any kind, lack of drawbacks or penalties imposed by magic use are all features of RPG casters that mark them out from legendary, fantastic, or superheroic casters.
A fighter can't do much more than Boromir. But a Wizard isn't limited to counterspelling and a few signature powers like Gandalf.

[Larkspire]

It seems like in narrative fantasy spellcasting usually has some inherent drawback..i.e. the caster becomes fatigued, or suffers some sort of ability drain. Divine casters are usually depicted as making some sort of sacrifice to the gods.
It seems we fall victim to game-ism because that sort of thing is "not fun". Nor is it conducive to sustained play.
In old school D&D the Wizard was so easy to kill..and his advancement so slow, it was assumed that he deserved the God like late game power he achieved because he slogged through the low levels being outshined and protected by the Fighter, Paladin etc..
It was like an unspoken agreement that the Wizard would take over late game and start protecting the martial PCs.
Now the good news is that casters no longer lag so much out the gate nor are they as fragile...so it begs the question, why do I need these martials at all? and the whole disparity problem.
I don't want to go back to the sucky old days or anything, nor am I proposing a solution...it's just interesting to me.
I'm totally cool with martial characters getting souped up Anime style...I wanna see a run by decapitation :D

[Anzyr]

Larkspire wrote:

It seems like in narrative fantasy spellcasting usually has some inherent drawback..i.e. the caster becomes fatigued, or suffers some sort of ability drain. Divine casters are usually depicted as making some sort of sacrifice to the gods.

It seems we fall victim to game-ism because that sort of thing is "not fun". Nor is it conducive to sustained play.
In old school D&D the Wizard was so easy to kill..and his advancement so slow, it was assumed that he deserved the God like late game power he achieved because he slogged through the low levels being outshined and protected by the Fighter, Paladin etc..
It was like an unspoken agreement that the Wizard would take over late game and start protecting the martial PCs.
Now the good news is that casters no longer lag so much out the gate nor are they as fragile...so it begs the question, why do I need these martials at all? and the whole disparity problem.
I don't want to go back to the sucky old days or anything, nor am I proposing a solution...it's just interesting to me.
I'm totally cool with martial characters getting souped up Anime style...I wanna see a run by decapitation :D

Path of War and Psionics will help.

[Larkspire]

Anzyr wrote:

Larkspire wrote:

It seems like in narrative fantasy spellcasting usually has some inherent drawback..i.e. the caster becomes fatigued, or suffers some sort of ability drain. Divine casters are usually depicted as making some sort of sacrifice to the gods.

It seems we fall victim to game-ism because that sort of thing is "not fun". Nor is it conducive to sustained play.
In old school D&D the Wizard was so easy to kill..and his advancement so slow, it was assumed that he deserved the God like late game power he achieved because he slogged through the low levels being outshined and protected by the Fighter, Paladin etc..
It was like an unspoken agreement that the Wizard would take over late game and start protecting the martial PCs.
Now the good news is that casters no longer lag so much out the gate nor are they as fragile...so it begs the question, why do I need these martials at all? and the whole disparity problem.
I don't want to go back to the sucky old days or anything, nor am I proposing a solution...it's just interesting to me.
I'm totally cool with martial characters getting souped up Anime style...I wanna see a run by decapitation :D

Path of War and Psionics will help.

I like many of those additions...Path of War fighting style powers especially.The only reason I haven't added those things as well is i think my Player's heads would explode...or they'd just flounder in analysis paralysis. Cool stuff though.

[DM_Blake]

Milo v3 wrote:

DM_Blake wrote:

Bingo!

That's the answer to the OP's question.

Fantasy as a genre has traditionally NOT had superheroes in it. Those few who were, they were usually spellcasters. Traditionally.

Then there is this other genre full of superhero characters. What's it called? Oh, yeah, the superhero genre. That's where Superman and the Hulk and probably even Batman and Wolverine belong.

There is yet another genre that is kind of like Fantasy, but slightly different: Mythology. Characters in this genre are usually gods, partially gods, or at least favored and/or gifted by the gods so that they literally are far above mortal men. It kind of feels like fantasy, full of heroic quests and monster slaying, but with that angle of godly intervention to make everything so much more superheroic.

... How is mythology not fantasy????? How is doctor strange not fantasy? How is spiderman not fantasy with his power coming from mystical spider totems, and with vampires hunting him down? How is mythology not fantasy????

The key, and I said it more than once in my post, is "traditional fantasy".

Of course superheroes are fantasy. They're definitely not reality, are they?

"Fantasy" is a catch all term that covers many sub-genres, including all the ones I listed and more. If you do a Venn diagram and draw a circle for each sub-genre, many of them will overlap somewhere. If you draw a big circle around that whole thing, that circle is "Fantasy". All the empty areas that are inside the big Fantasy circle but outside all the little sub-genre circles would be "Traditional Fantasy".

In other words, "traditional fantasy" is all the remaining fantasy after you EXCLUDE the sub-genres. It is, in its way, its own sub-genre but it's really just the basic fantasy that ISN'T all the other stuff.

So, by that definition, "traditional fantasy" cannot include mythology, Dr. Strange, or Spiderman - they're all elsewhere in that Venn diagram.

[kyrt-ryder]

Technically isn't mythology more Traditional than 'Traditional Fantasy'?

[DevinTowerwood]

@ kyrt True, but that's semantics in the same direction as pointing out 'Post-modern' doesn't make much sense as a genre.

[Milo v3]

DM_Blake wrote:

The key, and I said it more than once in my post, is "traditional fantasy".

Of course superheroes are fantasy. They're definitely not reality, are they?

"Fantasy" is a catch all term that covers many sub-genres, including all the ones I listed and more. If you do a Venn diagram and draw a circle for each sub-genre, many of them will overlap somewhere. If you draw a big circle around that whole thing, that circle is "Fantasy". All the empty areas that are inside the big Fantasy circle but outside all the little sub-genre circles would be "Traditional Fantasy".

In other words, "traditional fantasy" is all the remaining fantasy after you EXCLUDE the sub-genres. It is, in its way, its own sub-genre but it's really just the basic fantasy that ISN'T all the other stuff.

So, by that definition, "traditional fantasy" cannot include mythology, Dr. Strange, or Spiderman - they're all elsewhere in that Venn diagram.

Traditional Fantasy is mythology. What your talking about is what I like to call "Godwin's Fantasy" where all of it basically rips off tolkien and there is 1% of decent stories. Traditional fantasy is not just medieval rangers with elves.

Either way, Pathfinder specifically designed to not just be generic fantasy, it goes out of it's way to cover all different types of fantasy, from horror fantasy, to mythic, to space opera, to weird west, wuxia, generic fantasy, arabian nights, etc.

[Shadowborn]

Neurophage wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Quote:

It seems to me that people like to point out Paizo employees making comments around the likes of "Martial characters can't do that, because it is physically impossible."

I actually have never seen that.

You don't remember that time a Paizo employee (I don't remember who. Maybe Jason B.) made a blog post about how their inability to catch a mouse in their hand after tying the cord to their wrist was proof that fantastically-skilled Gunslingers shouldn't be allowed to use weapon cords to shoot their guns multiple times in one full attack? Personally, my problem with the weapon cord nonsense is that I don't see a problem with them reloading their weapons even when their hands are full because reloading a pistol while juggling another is just stylish.

My answer to this particular ruling is: I don't care if Jason Bulmahn can do it. Let Jackie Chan try and tell me whether or not he can do it.

[kyrt-ryder]

Shadowborn wrote:

Neurophage wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Quote:

It seems to me that people like to point out Paizo employees making comments around the likes of "Martial characters can't do that, because it is physically impossible."

I actually have never seen that.

You don't remember that time a Paizo employee (I don't remember who. Maybe Jason B.) made a blog post about how their inability to catch a mouse in their hand after tying the cord to their wrist was proof that fantastically-skilled Gunslingers shouldn't be allowed to use weapon cords to shoot their guns multiple times in one full attack? Personally, my problem with the weapon cord nonsense is that I don't see a problem with them reloading their weapons even when their hands are full because reloading a pistol while juggling another is just stylish.

My answer to this particular ruling is: I don't care if Jason Bulmahn can do it. Let Jackie Chan try and tell me whether or not he can do it.

Even that's only good for a few levels.

[DM_Blake]

Milo v3 wrote:

Either way, Pathfinder specifically designed to not just be generic fantasy, it goes out of it's way to cover all different types of fantasy, from horror fantasy, to mythic, to space opera, to weird west, wuxia, generic fantasy, arabian nights, etc.

I totally agree with you.

If by "goes out of its way" you actually mean "barely acknowledges". Because if it really "went out of its way", you wouldn't be seeing so much grumbling about marshals can't have good things.

And by "good things", those gumblers invariably mean "horror fantasy, to mythic, to space opera, to weird west, wuxia, etc."

[Milo v3]

DM_Blake wrote:

I totally agree with you.

If by "goes out of its way" you actually mean "barely acknowledges". Because if it really "went out of its way", you wouldn't be seeing so much grumbling about marshals can't have good things.

And by "good things", those gumblers invariably mean "horror fantasy, to mythic, to space opera, to weird west, wuxia, etc."

Umm... horror monsters and adventures, mythic rules, technology guide and aliens, gunslingers, monks chakra and ninjas, etc... Even the setting of Golarion has locations for each of those.

[Deadmanwalking]

Neurophage wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Quote:

It seems to me that people like to point out Paizo employees making comments around the likes of "Martial characters can't do that, because it is physically impossible."

I actually have never seen that.

You don't remember that time a Paizo employee (I don't remember who. Maybe Jason B.) made a blog post about how their inability to catch a mouse in their hand after tying the cord to their wrist was proof that fantastically-skilled Gunslingers shouldn't be allowed to use weapon cords to shoot their guns multiple times in one full attack? Personally, my problem with the weapon cord nonsense is that I don't see a problem with them reloading their weapons even when their hands are full because reloading a pistol while juggling another is just stylish.

Uh...he was kidding. It was a throwaway joke, not the actual justification or reason for the change.

Just for the record.

[Kthulhu]

If it was a joke, it was in pretty poor taste, given that he'd have to be extremely sheltered or a complete idiot to be unaware of the overwhelming opinion of the boards regarding the comparison of martial characters to spellcasters.

[ElterAgo]

I don't have a problem with 'fantastical' things EXCEPT when it is so bizarre it interrupts my suspension of disbelief.

If you insist that something is non-magical, yet it is clearly not possible... Well let's just say that it is jarring to my OCD Engineering Mind.

There was some build a while back that had a gunslinger firing-reloading-firing 10 shots (I think) round after round. With no magic involved. Ok, that jumps out at me.
People without magic just don't move that fast. Besides, if you try to ram a muzzle loader that quick, I'm pretty sure either the friction with the barrel or the impact at the bottom of the barrel will set off the black powder. If nothing else the barrel will quickly get so hot that mere contact with the barrel would ignite black powder.
It doesn't make sense even in your fantasy world and that bugs me.
Now if you say something like A gunslinger begins to get the notice of the X god who is impressed and grants Y power... Ok, you have an in game justification for it that works within the physical universe set up for your game.

I once was in a group that all jumped off a cliff (several hundred foot high). One was in in full plate armor. They reasoned that the falling damage and resources expended would be less than what they would need to get down the possibly trapped/guarded path. Plus they were in a hurry to accomplish more that session. No magic involved.
They should have had splintered bones, been buried into the ground, gear bent/mashed, etc... Nope, nothing but a click stick afterward.
If you have something in your setting that says after killing 14k magical enemies even a swordsman begins to absorb some of their magical power and can now do Z...
But without it, it doesn't make sense even within your fantasy game.

Yes, I know there are people that are not bothered by that kind of thing. Their suspension of disbelief is nearly infinite. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or is logically inconsistent.
But there are some like me who are bothered by it.

[Just a Guess]

Kthulhu wrote:

If it was a joke, it was in pretty poor taste, given that he'd have to be extremely sheltered or a complete idiot to be unaware of the overwhelming opinion of the boards regarding the comparison of martial characters to spellcasters.

It was about on one level with the waterbaloon comparison.

[Jiggy]

ElterAgo wrote:

I don't have a problem with 'fantastical' things EXCEPT when it is so bizarre it interrupts my suspension of disbelief.

If you insist that something is non-magical, yet it is clearly not possible... Well let's just say that it is jarring to my OCD Engineering Mind.

There was some build a while back that had a gunslinger firing-reloading-firing 10 shots (I think) round after round. With no magic involved. Ok, that jumps out at me.
People without magic just don't move that fast. Besides, if you try to ram a muzzle loader that quick, I'm pretty sure either the friction with the barrel or the impact at the bottom of the barrel will set off the black powder. If nothing else the barrel will quickly get so hot that mere contact with the barrel would ignite black powder.
It doesn't make sense even in your fantasy world and that bugs me.
Now if you say something like A gunslinger begins to get the notice of the X god who is impressed and grants Y power... Ok, you have an in game justification for it that works within the physical universe set up for your game.

I once was in a group that all jumped off a cliff (several hundred foot high). One was in in full plate armor. They reasoned that the falling damage and resources expended would be less than what they would need to get down the possibly trapped/guarded path. Plus they were in a hurry to accomplish more that session. No magic involved.
They should have had splintered bones, been buried into the ground, gear bent/mashed, etc... Nope, nothing but a click stick afterward.
If you have something in your setting that says after killing 14k magical enemies even a swordsman begins to absorb some of their magical power and can now do Z...
But without it, it doesn't make sense even within your fantasy game.

Yes, I know there are people that are not bothered by that kind of thing. Their suspension of disbelief is nearly infinite. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or is logically inconsistent.
But there are some like me who are bothered by it.

Perfect example of a person not only preferring the "reality + magic" type of fantasy, but of not quite grokking that fantasy can be something else and still "make sense" without requiring that the viewer doesn't care about suspension of disbelief and so forth.

Fantasy that doesn't require magic/divinity to do the impossible is old and well-established around the world. Just because it's not your preference or default assumption doesn't mean it requires its audience to have a "near infinite suspension of disbelief" or that any sort of internal consistency or "sense" must be thrown out the window.

If something happens in a fantasy story/game that "doesn't make sense", it's more likely that you just made a wrong assumption about what type of fantasy you were looking at than that there's anything lacking in that fantasy's "sense" or "logic".

[kyrt-ryder]

ElterAgo wrote:

I once was in a group that all jumped off a cliff (several hundred foot high). One was in in full plate armor. They reasoned that the falling damage and resources expended would be less than what they would need to get down the possibly trapped/guarded path. Plus they were in a hurry to accomplish more that session. No magic involved.

They should have had splintered bones, been buried into the ground, gear bent/mashed, etc... Nope, nothing but a click stick afterward.

This is a consequence of the Hit Points system. If you're not happy with people taking damage and not receiving wounds, you might want to experiment with some type of Death Cycle system where taking damage of certain degrees results in physical damage with penalties.

The fact of the matter is, becoming higher level means becoming tougher and more resilient.

Quote:

If you have something in your setting that says after killing 14k magical enemies even a swordsman begins to absorb some of their magical power and can now do Z...

But without it, it doesn't make sense even within your fantasy game.

It makes perfect sense to me

On the gunslinger subject, you're right that ramming black powder that fast might ignite it. I sidestep the whole issue with Wild West Era repeating firearms.

[Anzyr]

ElterAgo wrote:

I don't have a problem with 'fantastical' things EXCEPT when it is so bizarre it interrupts my suspension of disbelief.

If you insist that something is non-magical, yet it is clearly not possible... Well let's just say that it is jarring to my OCD Engineering Mind.

There was some build a while back that had a gunslinger firing-reloading-firing 10 shots (I think) round after round. With no magic involved. Ok, that jumps out at me.
People without magic just don't move that fast. Besides, if you try to ram a muzzle loader that quick, I'm pretty sure either the friction with the barrel or the impact at the bottom of the barrel will set off the black powder. If nothing else the barrel will quickly get so hot that mere contact with the barrel would ignite black powder.
It doesn't make sense even in your fantasy world and that bugs me.
Now if you say something like A gunslinger begins to get the notice of the X god who is impressed and grants Y power... Ok, you have an in game justification for it that works within the physical universe set up for your game.

I once was in a group that all jumped off a cliff (several hundred foot high). One was in in full plate armor. They reasoned that the falling damage and resources expended would be less than what they would need to get down the possibly trapped/guarded path. Plus they were in a hurry to accomplish more that session. No magic involved.
They should have had splintered bones, been buried into the ground, gear bent/mashed, etc... Nope, nothing but a click stick afterward.
If you have something in your setting that says after killing 14k magical enemies even a swordsman begins to absorb some of their magical power and can now do Z...
But without it, it doesn't make sense even within your fantasy game.

Yes, I know there are people that are not bothered by that kind of thing. Their suspension of disbelief is nearly infinite. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or is logically inconsistent.
But there are some like me who are bothered by it.

I assume you are also bothered by dragons flying and the fact that giants and giant bugs exist.

[RDM42]

Anzyr wrote:

ElterAgo wrote:

I don't have a problem with 'fantastical' things EXCEPT when it is so bizarre it interrupts my suspension of disbelief.

If you insist that something is non-magical, yet it is clearly not possible... Well let's just say that it is jarring to my OCD Engineering Mind.

There was some build a while back that had a gunslinger firing-reloading-firing 10 shots (I think) round after round. With no magic involved. Ok, that jumps out at me.
People without magic just don't move that fast. Besides, if you try to ram a muzzle loader that quick, I'm pretty sure either the friction with the barrel or the impact at the bottom of the barrel will set off the black powder. If nothing else the barrel will quickly get so hot that mere contact with the barrel would ignite black powder.
It doesn't make sense even in your fantasy world and that bugs me.
Now if you say something like A gunslinger begins to get the notice of the X god who is impressed and grants Y power... Ok, you have an in game justification for it that works within the physical universe set up for your game.

I once was in a group that all jumped off a cliff (several hundred foot high). One was in in full plate armor. They reasoned that the falling damage and resources expended would be less than what they would need to get down the possibly trapped/guarded path. Plus they were in a hurry to accomplish more that session. No magic involved.
They should have had splintered bones, been buried into the ground, gear bent/mashed, etc... Nope, nothing but a click stick afterward.
If you have something in your setting that says after killing 14k magical enemies even a swordsman begins to absorb some of their magical power and can now do Z...
But without it, it doesn't make sense even within your fantasy game.

Yes, I know there are people that are not bothered by that kind of thing. Their suspension of disbelief is nearly infinite. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or is logically inconsistent.
But there are some like me who are

...

I

"But ... DRAGONS!!!!"

Invalid argument.

[Neurophage]

ElterAgo wrote:

I don't have a problem with 'fantastical' things EXCEPT when it is so bizarre it interrupts my suspension of disbelief.

If you insist that something is non-magical, yet it is clearly not possible... Well let's just say that it is jarring to my OCD Engineering Mind.

There was some build a while back that had a gunslinger firing-reloading-firing 10 shots (I think) round after round. With no magic involved. Ok, that jumps out at me.
People without magic just don't move that fast. Besides, if you try to ram a muzzle loader that quick, I'm pretty sure either the friction with the barrel or the impact at the bottom of the barrel will set off the black powder. If nothing else the barrel will quickly get so hot that mere contact with the barrel would ignite black powder.
It doesn't make sense even in your fantasy world and that bugs me.
Now if you say something like A gunslinger begins to get the notice of the X god who is impressed and grants Y power... Ok, you have an in game justification for it that works within the physical universe set up for your game.

I once was in a group that all jumped off a cliff (several hundred foot high). One was in in full plate armor. They reasoned that the falling damage and resources expended would be less than what they would need to get down the possibly trapped/guarded path. Plus they were in a hurry to accomplish more that session. No magic involved.
They should have had splintered bones, been buried into the ground, gear bent/mashed, etc... Nope, nothing but a click stick afterward.
If you have something in your setting that says after killing 14k magical enemies even a swordsman begins to absorb some of their magical power and can now do Z...
But without it, it doesn't make sense even within your fantasy game.

Yes, I know there are people that are not bothered by that kind of thing. Their suspension of disbelief is nearly infinite. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or is logically inconsistent.
But there are some like me who are bothered by it.

A d10 hit die character who gets lucky on their HP/level rolls can, by level 6, survive being critted by a greatsword wielded by possibly the strongest person in a city. What would be a mortal blow by any normal person's standards is, to a lower-mid-level Fighter or Barbarian, an inconvenience at best. Supernatural toughness is already on the table, so why not use it for something more useful than combat? If a mage can fly and shoot lightning bolts out of their fingertips, what's wrong with a gunslinger reloading faster than should be possible? Why can't martial characters grow beyond the pale and become superhuman when magical characters aren't held to the same standard?

edit: Proofreading. I am good at it.