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Actually, I think the real FAQ is, "Is MoFF replayable?" The Guide says all Tier 1-2 modules and Tier 1 scenarios are, and MoFF is most definitely a Tier 1 module, so it technically isn't covered by the replayable clause.
All Tier 1 scenarios and Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules are available for unlimited replay with a 1st-level character for credit.
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Actually, I think the real FAQ is, "Is MoFF replayable?" The Guide says all Tier 1-2 modules and Tier 1 scenarios are, and MoFF is most definitely a Tier 1 module, so it technically isn't covered by the replayable clause.
All Tier 1 scenarios and Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules are available for unlimited replay with a 1st-level character for credit.
Yeah, I pretty much said as much in the other thread discussing this. I'll repost here what I had to say in the other thread.
MoFF is only Tier 1. Kevin was correct. The Fox's list is still well done, however, and appreciated.I thought In Service to Lore and Master of the Fallen Fortress were specifically a level 1 only scenario.In Service to Lore is. Master of the Fallen Fortress can be played once as a level 2, just like the other level 1 modules.MoFF is a level 1 module, not scenario. Yes, the chronicle sheet only says tier 1, but many things have changed since that chronicle was issued. There is now a single rule for level 1 modules, and it allows MoFF to be played and Gmed once each at level 2 like any other repeatable module.
That same confusion pops up about once a year, because so much has changed with the rewards for that module. I'm not able to do an extensive search right now, but there are multiple threads out there discussing it. Look at the more recent ones 2013 and newer). Somewhere there's also a thread explaining why the chronicle is unlikely to be updated.
Nope. MoFF is not a Tier 1-2 module, so the rule you are talking about from the guide does not apply. If it was tier 1-2, the chronicle would have gold listed for subtier 1-2, which is does not.
As always, each player may receive credit for each module or Adventure Path volume once as a player and once as a GM, in either order. Players must accept a Chronicle sheet for their characters the first time they play any sanctioned content. A player may replay sanctioned content at the GM’s discretion, but the player may not receive more than one Chronicle sheet per adventure. The only exceptions are Tier 1–2 modules and sanctioned Adventure Path content. A player may only play a Tier 1–2 module or sanctioned Adventure Path content for credit once with a 2nd-level character, but may use additional 1st-level characters to replay the same content for credit.So MoFF is still replayable, it cannot be played with or applied to 2nd level characters, not even once, unless you can pull up a quote from mgmnt. stating otherwise. The relevant rule is on pg. 20 of the guide.
There is no need to nitpick Module v. Scenario. The rules are the same for both. If they weren't, then MoFF wouldn't be replayable at all, since the guide has no rule for Tier 1 modules at all. This is a case where common sense needs to be applied.
There are two exceptions to these rules. All Tier 1 scenarios and Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules are available for unlimited replay with a 1st-level character for credit. The sanctioned modules may also be played with a 2nd-level character once for credit. GMs may receive another Chronicle sheet each time they run one of the Tier 1 scenarios or Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules, but may only apply a Chronicle sheet to one 2nd-level character per adventure.
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Actually, I think the real FAQ is, "Is MoFF replayable?" The Guide says all Tier 1-2 modules and Tier 1 scenarios are, and MoFF is most definitely a Tier 1 module, so it technically isn't covered by the replayable clause.
All Tier 1 scenarios and Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules are available for unlimited replay with a 1st-level character for credit.
There are several people who disagree.
Their opinions can be found in this thread. See posts #15, #16, and #19.
But, as far as I know, nothing official has come down the pipe, which is why I started this thread. Can we please get this put into the FAQ?
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I am certain it can be replayed. I don't think that is the question at all. When the plane-touched bonanza happened, Mike Brock complained that people were speed running multiple sessions of MotFF in the same day. If it couldn't be replayed, he could have pointed that out to put the kibosh on the bonanza.
The question is whether or not 2nd-level characters can play MotFF (once).
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I'd forgotten I posted in that thread last year, too. To my knowledge, nothing has changed since then. Master of the Fallen Fortress is a unique Tier 1 Module that grants 1xp and 1pp. It does not need to fall under any other category. When it was released, PFS was new. It's easy to look back at it now and use today's rules and regulations to try and place it in some sort of box, but those attempts fail unless Campaign Management wants that to happen.
It's Tier 1. Not Tier 1-2. Consequently there are also no "out-of-tier" rewards. You may never play it with a 2nd level character. The clarification by Josh Frost linked earlier is still binding, and never changed.
Like with anything else, you have to find evidence that supports your position, not a lack of evidence to the contrary. I'm not sure how people can add a "-2" behind the "1" on the Chronicle Sheet without digital editing. And if that's legal, then I'd like to add a "-10" to the "Tier 5-9" on Bonekeep 3's Chronicle Sheet so I can play it with a higher level character.
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Like with anything else, you have to find evidence that supports your position, not a lack of evidence to the contrary. I'm not sure how people can add a "-2" behind the "1" on the Chronicle Sheet without digital editing. And if that's legal, then I'd like to add a "-10" to the "Tier 5-9" on Bonekeep 3's Chronicle Sheet so I can play it with a higher level character.
That made no sense. >_>
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It's Tier 1. Not Tier 1-2. Consequently there are also no "out-of-tier" rewards. You may never play it with a 2nd level character. The clarification by Josh Frost linked earlier is still binding, and never changed.
This clarification is present in the current guide.
There are two exceptions to these rules. All Tier 1 scenarios and Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules are available for unlimited replay with a 1st-level character for credit. The sanctioned modules may also be played with a 2nd-level character once for credit. GMs may receive another Chronicle sheet each time they run one of the Tier 1 scenarios or Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules, but may only apply a Chronicle sheet to one 2nd-level character per adventure.
Note that only the sanctioned modules are called out as being available to 2nd level characters, and only once.
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Perhaps the updated guide will better satisfy you when it is released at GenCon.
I'm not dissatisfied. :)
There will always be confusion about something; that cannot be helped. I'm suggesting we clarify things when the confusion becomes frequent and common.
I am looking forward to the new Guide, though. There are some changes that I anticipate will be made for Season 7, and I can't wait to see if they actually come to pass. (They've been hinted at by Mike and John.)
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Steven, your previous quote adds nothing to the discussion. It's the same quote from last year. MotFF is neither a "Tier 1 scenario" nor a "Tier 1–2 sanctioned module".
If there is updated language in the Season 7 Guide, then that would fulfill the "Campaign Management changing their position" requirement.
Until that happens, again, nothing has changed.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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There are a whole host of Tier 1 and Tier 1-2 scenarios, quests and modules. There seem to be a web of old board posts and piecemeal rulings that sort of address each as a special case.
I would request that somewhere, the campaign leadership posts a collection of such products and explains
- which sorts of characters can play each adventure (Only pre-gens? Only characters with 0 XP? Only the characters supplied with the product?)
- which levels (repeatedly, or 1 time)
- for how much fame.
- whether it can be assigned to a CORE mode PC
I admit, if I took a look over a PC's Chronicle sheets and saw a collection of different Beginning Tier adventures, it would take me a while to disentangle them, and I'm not sure I'd do it correctly.
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I'm going to get out of the way of this one and let the venture officers sort it out. I've hit FAQ.
For the record, Mike has commented on the scenario more recently than Joshua's post HERE, even if it's just to reiterate what's in the guide.
What's listed on the chronicle sheet for tier doesn't apply anymore. The current guide takes precedent. They've stated elsewhere (I'll find it eventually) that the chronicle is unlikely to ever get updated.
Anyway, this is a question Mike or John should be able to answer pretty quickly if we can get their attention, so please hit FAQ if you haven't!
EDITED: Removed a part about the 0 Fame. For some reason, I was thinking that was prewritten on the chronicle.
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Why is it so hard for people to apply the rules that already exist instead of inventing "corner cases" and demanding specific rulings? Specific rulings get things banned, and this one was almost lost to the banhammer when the issue of "It doesn't give any Prestige" was brought up.
Why is no one complaining about the "1 XP" that is filled in, when slow track is an option at level 1? Why is no one complaining about the lack of a day job box when day jobs are allowed for modules? Because it doesn't matter. We know the rules, they're in the Guide. We overlook mistakes on the chronicles and use the rules as they exist now.
It doesn't matter that it says "Tier 1" because we know, looking at the Guide to Organized play, that it is a replayable 1-2 that offers 1xp and 1 Fame/Prestige.
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Here's Mike talking in regards to it a few years back (though this is newer than the Frost quote from above).
The intent when they changed the language in the Guide a couple of years ago was to make all of the Free RPG Day modules treated the same, without having to go back and recreate chronicles or print the product with updated language.
Note, a year after this post I linked they added the 1 PP to play through of MoFF as well.
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Here's Mike talking in regards to it a few years back
I read through all 139 comments and saw nothing changing MotFF to a Tier 1-2 Module.
The context being discussed there was strictly about the Fame reward.
Honestly, when The Fox brought this up, I had no idea so many people believed this. We have a large PFS community where I game, and I travel around quite a bit, and in almost 3 years I've never heard of anyone making these claims before (other than the thread The Fox linked).
Surely there's something that gives you this impression, right?
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I'm a strong believer in the balance of evidence. I'm totally willing to change my stance (and often do in many debates), but there has to be a preponderance of reasons to do so. Right now I see it as thus:
- The Chronicle Sheet reads "Tier 1".
- We know how other Tier 1 Chronicles work (the First Steps series).
- We have a statement from Campaign Management confirming this.
- Thematically, playing it with a Level 2 doesn't make sense.
- Mechanically, playing it with a Level 2 is a joke.
- The module was designed for level 1 (and a 15pt buy, at that).
- Years of discussion by Mike Brock, and 3 edits to the Guide, with not one mention of it changing to Tier 1-2.
After listing everything out, can you see why I don't believe Level 2's are allowed?
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But Mike has posted something about the module. Yes, it falls short of directly saying MoFF can be played by a level 2, but it does give pretty direct instructions on where to look for the rules and in what category it falls.
The +2 you see is for credit toward your GM star rating. From the Organized Play Gude:
Free RPG Day Modules The 16-page, Free RPG Day modules are shorter than a normal 32-page module and are more in line with a normal Pathfinder Society Scenario. Currently, these include Master of the Fallen Fortress, We Be Goblins!, and Dawn of the Scarlet Sun. To bring the Free RPG Day modules more in line with the rest of Pathfinder Society Organized Play, all current and future sanctioned Free RPG Day modules will award 1 XP, 1 PP and the gp amount listed on the Chronicle sheet if using the medium advancement track. If using the slow advancement track, they award 1/2 XP, 1/2 PP and half the gp listed on the Chronicle sheet. These apply only on successful completion of the adventure. If you have played any of the Free RPG Day modules listed above and been awarded Chronicle sheets for them, the XP, Prestige Points, and gp you received remain unchanged. All other rules for sanctioned module play, found in Chapter 6 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, should be followed.
My takeaway from the post is that it labels MoFF as a Sanctioned Free-RPG Day Module and refers to the rules for sanctioned module play in the guide, which, as quoted earlier, say the a level 1 module is tier 1-2 and may be played once by a level 2 character. That post is from February of 2013. I linked it earlier, but HERE it is again.
(Yes, I failed my will save to stop from posting again)
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Don't take this the wrong way, just going to play some devil's advocate. This discussion has been ongoing for 3 years and I do wish there was a stated resolution to put an end to it all. I actually have a character that has played it at level 2 as well as I know some others who have played it that way, and many people in my local community thought it worked that way. The fact that it causes a thread on here every so often is evidence that it is a problem.
The Chronicle Sheet reads "Tier 1".
It also says "+1 XP," which is not always correct now either.
We know how other Tier 1 Chronicles work (the First Steps series).
For scenarios, not modules.
We have a statement from Campaign Management confirming this.
Specifically for this special case?
Thematically, playing it with a Level 2 doesn't make sense.
I have to agree with you here, but it doesn't make much sense to play Confirmation at 2.2 either.
Mechanically, playing it with a Level 2 is a joke.
Irrelevant to the discussion.
The module was designed for level 1 (and a 15pt buy, at that).
It was. It was also written before the rules existed for replayable modules/scenarios.
Years of discussion by Mike Brock, and 3 edits to the Guide, with not one mention of it changing to Tier 1-2.
Yet, but it is still a module.
After listing everything out, can you see why I don't believe Level 2's are allowed?
Yes. I can see it argued both ways still.
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I'm a strong believer in the balance of evidence. I'm totally willing to change my stance (and often do in many debates), but there has to be a preponderance of reasons to do so. Right now I see it as thus:
- The Chronicle Sheet reads "Tier 1".
- We know how other Tier 1 Chronicles work (the First Steps series).
- We have a statement from Campaign Management confirming this.
- Thematically, playing it with a Level 2 doesn't make sense.
- Mechanically, playing it with a Level 2 is a joke.
- The module was designed for level 1 (and a 15pt buy, at that).
- Years of discussion by Mike Brock, and 3 edits to the Guide, with not one mention of it changing to Tier 1-2.
After listing everything out, can you see why I don't believe Level 2's are allowed?
Thematically playing it after you've joined the Pathfinder Society doesn't make sense, but the restriction on it being your first chronicle was lifted.
Godsmouth Heresy and Crypt of the Everflame (and all of the adventure paths) were also designed for four 1st level characters on a 15 point buy.
I don't think mechanically it's a joke at level 2. Maybe for a highly optimized level 2 character or an entire group of level 2s, but it does include the possibility of throwing 6d6 of falling damage at the entire party, which could still easily kill a d6 class character even at 2nd level. Honestly, I've always thought it was pretty brutal for an all new 1st level party. There are something like 6 combats. If nobody has a wand, that can wear a party down. On top of that, you only get 1 prestige, which means going in the next scenario, you still don't have a wand in the group.
See my previous message for the rest of them. Mike has posted about it and the guide has been updated. There's now a single rule, which avoids the need to specifically call out MoFF.
For the record, I don't think I've ever assigned it to a level 2, and I've only played it once as a level 1. I wouldn't mind being wrong. A yes or no about whether it can be played at level 2 from campaign leadership would be great. I just think that the guide itself counts as campaign leadership addressing it. That and Mike referring people to the guide when asked a question about the module lead me to believe that's where we should look for the rules.
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I'm a strong believer in the balance of evidence. I'm totally willing to change my stance (and often do in many debates), but there has to be a preponderance of reasons to do so. Right now I see it as thus:
- The Chronicle Sheet reads "Tier 1".
- We know how other Tier 1 Chronicles work (the First Steps series).
- We have a statement from Campaign Management confirming this.
- Thematically, playing it with a Level 2 doesn't make sense.
- Mechanically, playing it with a Level 2 is a joke.
- The module was designed for level 1 (and a 15pt buy, at that).
- Years of discussion by Mike Brock, and 3 edits to the Guide, with not one mention of it changing to Tier 1-2.
After listing everything out, can you see why I don't believe Level 2's are allowed?
This. Common sense, yo.
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Eh, I've had my say, so I'm going to be done with this thread. But I'll leave it with this thought; MoFF has caused years of arguments, with neither side able to agree, maybe it's time to put MoFF out to pasture. This scenario/module/whatever is causing more headaches than it is worth.
It is actually easier for a confirmation of how the module's tiering works than to remove it completely, and I am not a fan of removing the option to play it for PFS credit. We already lost some scenarios (First steps 2 & 3) and I am not a fan of cycling out modules/scenarios unless it is absolutely necessary.
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I still love the scenario. It's a very thematic piece to the overall beginning of a Pathfinder's career (and a new person's first taste of PFS). But if you thought 28 minute speedruns of 1st level Aasimars were bad, imagine 18 minute speedruns with a 2nd level character as the frontliner.
If MotFF is being considered for 2nd level characters, then it may as well be retired. As I don't want that to happen, my vote is for clarification that we run it as it's listed on the Chronicle: for 1st level characters only.
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Up to 19 FAQ requests. We can do better! (Though, it probably doesn't matter until after Gencon).
I'd hate to see a perfectly good module be removed from play because of a simple out of character question. There are few enough low level options for some people now, and there's nothing in the module that is incompatible with the current society (unlike First Steps 2 & 3 which were retired partly because of faction changes). Asking for an FAQ to settle the issue is much better than taking a play option away from people when we're begging the campaign for more content.
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Right now, barring any further explanation, I won't be allowing any 2nd-level characters to play MotFF, but if I'm auditing a character and it has the Chronicle sheet for 2nd level, I'll accept that.
Pretty much this. One of my 1st characters played First Steps 3 at level 2 because the GM told me it was fine. I know better now, but I wouldn't punish a new player because their GM erred.
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Haven't followed the whole thing, but I saw some points that include incorrect or incomplete information.
On the Chronicle only saying Tier 1: It predates the Tier 1-2 setup for modules.
On so-called Out of Tier or Tier 2 gold for modules: The ONLY Chronicles which have different gold levels for levels 1 & 2 are for The Confirmation and The Wounded Wisp.
Crypt of the Everflame: Only one tier listed, 1-2.
Master of the Fallen Fortress: Only one tier listed, 1, because it predates the 1-2 definition, and was not updated when basic Module play changed from "any PC of lower level can get credit, playing a artificially leveled up version" to "can only be played by PCs of appropriate level." as it is such a low level module...
Murder's Mark: Only one tier listed, 1-2.
The Godsmouth Heresy: Only one tier listed, 1-2.
We Be Goblins!: Only one tier listed, 1-2.
Thornkeep: Accursed Halls: Only one tier listed, 1-2.
Emerald Spire: The Tower Ruins: Only one tier listed, 1-2.
Mummy's Mask: The HAld-Dead City: Only one tier listed, 1-2.
Reign of Winter: The Snows of Summer: Only one tier listed, 1-2.
So, some of them only show Tier 1-2 because their Chronicle sheets were updated when the Chronicle Play rules were updated, so you had to play a real PFS PC in-tier, rather than the older rules that went away when The Ruby Phoenix Tournament was released and specially grandfathered to use the old rules for a few weeks.
The Confirmation has separate gold rewards for Tier 1 and Tier 2, but does not appear to have true out of subtier gold, just level appropriate gold? Same for Wounded Wisp.
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My point was just that, some people label the Chronicle as out-of-date, or too old, therefore it must be in error, and yet we have newer Chronicles that are Tiered the same way, and nobody claims there's anything wrong with them.
Which chronicles are tiered the same way?
Or are you trying to equate a Tier 1 SCENARIO Chronicle, with a Level 1 MODULE's Chronicle from several years before?
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As I stated up thread, there is no meaningful distinction.
A "Tier 1-2 Chronicle" works the same whether it's a scenario (like The Confirmation) or a Module (like We Be Goblins).
A "Tier 1 Chronicle" should work the same whether it's a scenario (like First Steps) or a Module (like Master of the Fallen Fortress).