Master of the Fallen Fortress, Tier 1 or Tier 1-2?

[TriOmegaZero]

Nefreet wrote:

That doesn't happen when you play low tier.

I don't find that to be true in my experience.

[CanisDirus]

Just in case someone find this thread without finding one of the other threads in which this issue has been clarified:

Guide to Organized Play wrote:

All Tier 1 and 1-2 adventures can be replayed an unlimited number of times with a 1st-level character for credit. The Tier 1 and 1–2 adventures can also be played with a 2nd-level character once for credit in each campaign mode (Core and Standard Modes).

Master of the Fallen Fortress is a Tier 1-2 adventure, and (barring any changes to the guide after the time of my post) can be played and GM'd once each with 2nd level characters/credit, and unlimited times for 1st level characters/credit.

[TriOmegaZero]

That has changed. Update inbound once I find it.

Edit: Source.

Linda Zayas-Palmer wrote:

Tier 1 scenarios are not playable with level 2 characters. A character's level must always be in-tier for the adventure she is playing.

Master of the Fallen Fortress is a Tier 1 Module and can only be played by 1st level characters.

Guide v8.0 wrote:

Adventure: Adventures collectively refer to scenarios, sanctioned modules, and sanctioned Adventure Paths.

[CanisDirus]

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That has changed. Update inbound once I find it.

Edit: Source.

Linda Zayas-Palmer wrote:

Tier 1 scenarios are not playable with level 2 characters. A character's level must always be in-tier for the adventure she is playing.

Master of the Fallen Fortress is a Tier 1 Module and can only be played by 1st level characters.

Guide v8.0 wrote:

Adventure: Adventures collectively refer to scenarios, sanctioned modules, and sanctioned Adventure Paths.

Linda clarified that Tier 1 scenarios cannot be played or GM'd for level 2 credit. Nothing since the guide has changed the fact that Modules and APs are still "Adventures", and that all Tier 1 and Tier 1-2 Adventures (now except for Tier 1 scenarios) can be played and run for level 2 credit once each.

[BretI]

I don't think you get to both play and GM an Evergreen at level two -- it is one or the other.

Season 8 Roleplaying Guide Guide, pg. 18 wrote:

EVERGREEN ADVENTURES

All Tier 1 and 1-2 adventures can be replayed an unlimited number of times with a 1st-level character for credit. The Tier 1 and 1–2 adventures can also be played with a 2nd-level character once for credit in each campaign mode (Core and Standard Modes). GMs receive another Chronicle sheet each time they run one of the Tier 1 and Tier 1-2 adventures, but can only apply a Chronicle sheet to one 2nd-level character per adventure per campaign mode.

I think this is a change from the previous season, but I also don't think it was clearly defined before.

There seem to be several small changes to applying GM credit.

[Nefreet]

Linda Zayas-Palmer wrote:

A character's level must always be in-tier for the adventure she is playing.

"Adventures", according to the new glossary, are Modules and Scenarios (but not Quests).

[TriOmegaZero]

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Linda clarified that Tier 1 scenarios cannot be played or GM'd for level 2 credit. Nothing since the guide has changed the fact that Modules and APs are still "Adventures", and that all Tier 1 and Tier 1-2 Adventures (now except for Tier 1 scenarios) can be played and run for level 2 credit once each.

Linda clarified that you must be in tier for the adventure, which covers scenarios and modules, and MotFF is still a Tier 1 module.

[CanisDirus]

BretI wrote:

I don't think you get to both play and GM an Evergreen at level two -- it is one or the other.

This was clarified before this season's guide came out (albiet in a blog post behind a spoiler tag)

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5li7w?Updated-My-Journal

Quote:

A player can play a replayable scenario adventure an unlimited number of times with 1st-level characters, and once with a 2nd-level character. Similarly, a GM can apply credit for a running a replayable scenario adventure multiple times to as many of her 1st-level characters as she likes, and she can apply credit to a 2nd-level character once.

(Changed scenario to adventure in keeping with the changes to this season's guide).

GMs have been able to apply credit as well as PC credit to level 2 characters for these adventures since at least November (those who had already made the correct interpretation of applying credit could have done so far beyond this past November). If this is changed, there is now a whole new layer of inconsistencies in character record-keeping, since before August 2016 people could do X, but afterwards cannot, meaning that some character records might appear to be illegal when they are in fact not, ad infinitum ad nauseum.

[CanisDirus]

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Linda clarified that Tier 1 scenarios cannot be played or GM'd for level 2 credit. Nothing since the guide has changed the fact that Modules and APs are still "Adventures", and that all Tier 1 and Tier 1-2 Adventures (now except for Tier 1 scenarios) can be played and run for level 2 credit once each.

Linda clarified that you must be in tier for the adventure, which covers scenarios and modules, and MotFF is still a Tier 1 module.

Tonya has made further clarification that I suspect will be included in the revision to the season 8 guide (which I sent you a related message about ~10 minutes before your last post...)

[nosig]

Clearly we need to ... Just not play Master of the Fallen Fortress. It seems to bring out the worst in people.

Which is to bad, as I rather like the ... Whatever it is now. Good story and fun to play. (And re-play.)

[Nefreet]

Or, you know, just tell people that they can't stomp through an adventure with their over-tier character.

Which is what was finally clarified.

Hopefully, there shouldn't be any more problems, barring a heavily debated misprint in a future Guide.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

nosig wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Or, you know, just tell people that they can't stomp through an adventure with their over-tier character.

Which is what was finally clarified.

Hopefully, there shouldn't be any more problems, barring a heavily debated misprint in a future Guide.

I don't know - The last PC I killed in this was a 2nd level Barbarian... and the only PC I have seen actually "stomp through" on their first time playing it was a 1st level (Sylph) Crypt Breaker Alchemist on her 2nd game (the PC not the Player)... but, mah, whatever. I've only run/played it a dozen times or so... clearly not a good sampling.

I just wish we had some consistent ruling on it, one that is easy to tell newer players, and doesn't change from month to month, or table to table. In the last two months I have had to go back and tell the Player for the 2nd level Barbarian that died that she shouldn't actually have been allowed to play her girl - then that she it was ok - and now again that she shouldn't have... Only (again) I'm not sure if that is the final word.

SO... perhaps it's best to just put this one aside. It kills to many PCs anyway.

Well, if we're going on the 'retirement/do not play' list concept, could we do that for ALL the modules/specials/scenarios that only award 1 PP total to bring the rewards in line and uniform?

Yes, I know what that means, I'm curious to see what it does to the Tier (1) 1-2 situation...

[TimD]

EDIT: obviously too much blood in my caffeine stream this morning...

[Yiroep]

I wonder about characters who have played it at level 2 already...

Nefreet wrote:

Or, you know, just tell people that they can't stomp through an adventure with their over-tier character.

Nefreet, I usually end up agreeing with you, but why such the vitriolic statement about this? It used to be worded in a way that was ambiguous. :(

[TOZ]

Because he and I are really tired of this being a question.

[DrakeRoberts]

It seems to me that the real problem is that there is, or was, a rule that said the playable PC levels for a module are +/- 1 from the published level. To my knowledge, this matches with the tiers on all sanctioned module chronicle sheets other than MoFF (which may have been released prior to that rule?). The replay rules were then used to clarify that for evergreen adventures allowing play at both 1 and 2, you could only get the level 2 credit once. To maintain consistency with both past rules (at least as I remember them, perhaps I'm wrong), as well as with how all other modules are tiered, MoFF should just have its chronicle sheet noted as being tier 1-2 (as those are the positive levels that are +/- 1 from the module's marketed intended level of 1). That simple fix would bring consistency with how modules are handled, would keep sheets from potentially being invalidated without grandfathering, and would make it so that MoFF isn't the one adventure you need to look at the chronicle sheet in advance to determine legality of PCs by level (as scenarios list tiers and modules list intended level which is supposed to indicate the PFS tier via the +/- 1 method). Finally, this change would remove any discrepancies in understanding what is/isn't a legal level for MoFF to be run at without requiring knowledge of an online clarification or a relatively minor clause in the guide that would apparently apply to only this one module (so that 'scenario' vs 'module' vs 'adventure' vs intent needn't be sussed out).

[Yiroep]

I mean, the best solution would be for someone to finally directly address the module itself and put the end to all questions thereof. That way, when new language inevitably comes out, we don't have to revisit the question again for this module.

[TimD]

TOZ wrote:

Because he and I are really tired of this being a question.

You aren't the only ones tired of the question.

Those of us on the other side are even more tired of the assumptions of motive that keep being thrown around. We sometimes like it when tables make rather than everyone going home because someone has a 2nd L character, but not a 1st.
(Speaking for myself, but I imagine it also applies to others:) this is especially relevant now that I'm unlikely to EVER play a 1st L Pre Gen under the current rules, except possibly to make a table for a Quest, after the Pre Gen credit change.
For those that are worried about over-tier, most GMs would probably actually prefer to see a normal 2nd L character (who is locked into their build) rather than a purpose-built 1st go through MoFF.

[DrakeRoberts]

Nefreet wrote:

Or, you know, just tell people that they can't stomp through an adventure with their over-tier character.

I'm pretty sure that every level 1 module, other than those requiring pregens and the in-question MoFF, can be played with level 2 characters. If so this seems a rather arbitrary judgement to apply to MoFF and not the others. In fact, it's really no different than playing level 5's in a module published for a party of level 4 characters, either.

[TOZ]

If 2nd level characters are going to be allowed, I'd prefer they just update the chronicle to Tier 1-2 and be done with it. Eliminate the corner case rather than write rules for it.

[Nefreet]

Everyone has their own way of understanding the game, whether it be broad applications or tiny nuances. Naturally, when you encounter an understanding that is diametrically opposite, it's a little jarring. So you have two options: change your point of view (which is not always easy), or try to convince the other of yours (equally difficult). Given the rare propensity of peoples' ability to change, it often requires an "official" clarification before the two parties can move on.

For years, this particular matter was never clarified. New evidence would come to the surface in favor of one interpretation, just to be reversed or superceded by something else.

So last year, I went to the source, and asked John Compton. His response was the laughing, finishing-your-question-before-you-could sort of answer that jived with my understanding of the game perfectly.

So, when this Guide was released, and the verbiage was different, and a certain VO is claiming that was what he was told by John Compton as well, it made my head tweak in such a way that it attracted the attention of animals who can hear frequencies beyond what the human ear can detect.

Never is such a back and forth helpful.

[Nefreet]

In my opinion, the 2nd level character should never have been able to play. My understanding has always been this.

Clearly, the GM was of a different opinion. They may have held that opinion for an equal length of time.

The only recourse would be to let the dice lay where they fell, and move forward. Likewise I wouldn't rerun a game of Level 1s where one of the players previously insisted on playing their Level 2.

The current ruling is that Tier 1 Adventures (there are only two) may only be credited towards Level 1 characters.

But I have this nauseous feeling that that may change again.

EDIT: the person I was responding to deleted their comment.

[Yiroep]

TOZ wrote:

Because he and I are really tired of this being a question.

While this may be true, please try not to justify harmful and spiteful statements.

That doesn't help anyone, and neither does the original comment.

[TOZ]

You thought that was justification? I'm sorry. I'll include a disclaimer next time.

[DrakeRoberts]

I found the rule I was referring to. It may have been in other guides as well, but the one I located it in was version 4.2, in a chapter (6) dedicated to Modules. In that chapter, the first line under the heading "Legal Pathfinder Society Characters" reads "If possible, all players must use an existing Payhfinder Society character (without modification) within 1 level of the module's starting level." (It goes on to explain that if you don't have a character in that range, then you can use a pregen (for modules below level 9)). Later it goes on to say that replay rules apply for Tier 1-2 and only Tier 1-2 modules, with the typical once-only at level 2. Since MoFF is certainly an evergreen, and based on the rules presented for determining legal characters for a module, I think it's fairly clear that, at least as of Season 4, MoFF was intended to be a Tier 1-2 module, and that likely the sheet was never updated to indicate that change.

Of course rules can, and do, change. Still, I feel that the above rules make it clear that playing level 2 characters once through MoFF was at least at some point legal. I agree with Mike B. that it'd be better to correct the oversight and make MoFF tier 1-2 rather than having to start grandfathering chronicle sheets. Since this would bring it in line with gow every other module works for determining tier, I think it's a much simpler solution overall.

[Nefreet]

That section of the Season 4 Guide has been cited before in this discussion. It's never been reprinted in Guides since then.

It's a sticking point for several people. It's not for several others.

To me, it's just another piece of evidence slung around in the endless back and forth debate, and isn't conclusive in and of itself.

[Ferious Thune]

My sense from the last few Developer posts is that they're trying to say it's Level 1 only, but they keep missing a word. Saying adventures one place and scenarios another, leaving room for MoFF to fall into a grey area. It's one module, really, that is in question now. It would prevent a lot of confusion if one of the Developers could make a direct statement, on the forums, that is not being relayed by someone else about what level characters are allowed to play Master of the Fallen Fortress. I know they want to get the language in the guide to where it's clear without being that specific, but this is a situation where the much simpler solution is just to rule on this single Module that doesn't quite fit with the other Modules, but isn't a Scenario either.

I was one of the people who believed the season 4 rule in the guide applied (and I still think it did at the time). I've come around with the new language in the guide and the repeated attempts to clarify through the general rule to thinking that currently, only a level 1 character can play the (EDIT: module - see, there I go using the wrong word, too!) scenario.

For past run throughs, I would say it's best to just write it off as a confusing situation and let whatever chronicles people have stand.

[Nefreet]

Ferious Thune wrote:

For past run throughs, I would say it's best to just write it off as a confusing situation and let whatever chronicles people have stand.

It would be best if this conundrum was preemptively ruled on as well, at the same time, since it's the inevitable follow up question.

At this point in PFS's tenure, Campaign Leadership almost needs editors for their forum and blog posts (preferably from the forum community).

The omission or misuse of a single word changes the entire meaning of a statement.

[Andrew Christian]

I imagine once Tonya returns from vacation, that she will fully clarify.

I'm almost 100% certain that all Tier 1 and 1-2 modules and evergreen Tier 1-2 Scenarios are going to all be treated the same.

So lets show a few days patience until she returns.

If you follow the rules as best you can based on this thread and come to find out later that you shouldn't have allowed a level 2 in MoFF, it isnt the end of the world. In a time of uncertainty, we do our best. This level of error is not worth getting bent out of shape over and isn't worth retracting the credit.

If your decision is the more conservative and not allowing the level 2, that is OK as well. As long as you make a good faith and fair effort to follow the rules as you understand them, it's all good.

Tonya will be back soon and clarify this once and for all I'm sure.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

TL;dr: Expect Table Variation?

[DrakeRoberts]

It seems fairly clear, I think, that in Season 4 it was legal. When, or if, that changed seems to be a point of confusion, however. I agree with the idea that adventures should only be playable by in-tier (although not necessarily in-subtier) characters. That said, I also feel that MoFF should be a Tier 1-2 module, and that by making it such, all order can be restored with very minimal effort, changes, and confusion.

[Nefreet]

Andrew Christian wrote:

I'm almost 100% certain that all Tier 1 and 1-2 modules and evergreen Tier 1-2 Scenarios are going to all be treated the same.

But NOT Tier 1 Scenarios?

Got it.

[CanisDirus]

Everything should be cleared up when the revised Guide comes out.

[TOZ]

I thought we said that before GenCon too.

[Andrew Christian]

TOZ wrote:

I thought we said that before GenCon too.

To be fair, there are a lot of things that are clearer. It's just the new rules that aren't entirely clear.

[TOZ]

Then that isn't everything. :P

[The Masked Ferret]

Thread necro, I know. This has been answered in the latest guide, officially:

Role Playing Guild Guide v9.1 wrote:

EVERGREEN ADVENTURES

All Tier 1 and 1-2 adventures can be replayed an unlimited number of times with a 1st-level character for credit. Tier 1–2 adventures can also be played with a 2nd-level character once for credit in each campaign mode (Core and Standard Modes). GMs receive one Chronicle sheet each time they run one of the Tier 1 and Tier 1-2 adventure. They may apply a Tier 1–2 Chronicle sheet to one 2nd-level character per adventure per campaign mode.

TLDR - Master of the Fallen Fortress is a Tier 1 adventure, and thus can only be played or replayed by Level 1 characters.