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I had the idea just now, with the current unhappiness with both Mystic Bolts and Spell Casting for Warlocks, what if we merged these two abilities?
I propose the following:
Warlocks gain Mystic Bolts with their Arcane Training II. With this it deals purely 1d6+2 damage of the element of your choice, chosen at the time of taking the talent. It retains its current iteration of functionality.
For each additional Arcane Training rank taken thereafter, from Ranks 3-5 Would unlock another Elemental type, and increase the damage of Mystic Bolts by 2.
So 1d6+4 at Arcane III
1d6+6 at Arcane IV
1d6+8 at Arcane V etc.
Upon reaching Arcane Training VI I would like to see them offered Force or Sonic damage as a type, in addition to completing their damage out at 1d6+10.
I think this makes taking Arcane Training feel less of a sucker punch by getting additional functionality beyond just being taxed for spells, and also alleviates some of the problems with Warlock Talents being so scarce, in addition to helping Mystic Bolts overcome its current lacking ability to deal with energy resistance.
What do you all think?
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I think combining them would make those talents must haves, and must haves make for bad options.
They're already must haves, and they aren't showing any signs of going away. If anything this gives you MORE options as you gain effectively an additional Talent by not taking the already mandatory Mystic Bolts (If you didn't take this why were you going Warlock, it's literally their thing)
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Don't like it at all. Instead I want to see other options worth passing up spellcasting for. If that option doesn't exist, then the class has failed.
I'm going to say the same thing I did in the Avenger area to you, I have to work with what I'm seeing, which is very little. Its pretty much set in stone now that you're going to be maliciously taxed for Spellcasting.
Its also been shown that pretty much all the creativity in the talents went to the Stalker. If this is what we're getting, I'm just trying to lessen the sting.
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Don't like it at all. Instead I want to see other options worth passing up spellcasting for. If that option doesn't exist, then the class has failed.
Paizo is highly unlikely to dial the power level up enough for that to happen. At higher levels they would need to let the vigilante pick something ridiculous like a 1/day Limited Wish SLA (yes, with no material cost). I would seriously consider delaying spell progression for something like that. Not much less than that, though.
In any case, I agree that the false choice and trap options have got to go if this class is going to turn out any good.
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Don't like it at all. Instead I want to see other options worth passing up spellcasting for. If that option doesn't exist, then the class has failed.Paizo is highly unlikely to dial the power level up enough for that to happen. At higher levels they would need to let the vigilante pick something ridiculous like a 1/day Limited Wish SLA (yes, with no material cost). I would seriously consider delaying spell progression for something like that. Not much less than that, though.
In any case, I agree that the false choice and trap options have got to go if this class is going to turn out any good.
The choice isn't just about one talent. That's really the problem with the choice right now. No single talent in the warlock list is worth giving up spellcasting for.
Mystic bolt may be worth delaying two levels on casting...and then it has no effect after that.
What they need is talents that build on each other so that you are deciding whether a group of several talents are worth it. Spellcasting is the only chain right now, and many of the other talents enhance or depend on spellcasting, making it even less of a choice.
Without talent groupings to create alternatives, it will always be a false choice. I make suboptimal characters as a rule...but even I'd have a hard time accepting this one.
No single talent in the warlock list is worth giving up spellcasting for.
I'd contest that on the grounds that even with every level of spellcasting Warlock isn't really a good spellcaster anyway. Personally I think the two best talents aside from casting and Mystic Bolts are Educated Defense and Elemental Battle Armor. The former is really strong against enemy casters, getting to completely invalidate or even reverse a spell onto them is kind of amazing, especially given that it has an entirely independent pool of resources. Elemental Battle Armor mostly just good for a melee Warlock, but potentially decent for other builds. I also think with some buffing (screw Blood Armor, get some decent scaling and potentially the ability to use for more than one battle) Bond of Blood could be pretty strong as well for a Warlock who wants to focus on a weapon.
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Could you explain to me how a warlock who doesn't take the casting talents acts as anything other than a glorified expert with some nice defensive buffs. Better to be a weak caster than a good NPC class.
Yes, the warlock has bolts, but can it beat an expert archer build? They both need the same number of feats (twf/weapon proficiency at 1, itwf/manyshot at 8, everything else both want) but the warlock hits touch while the archer has ways around DR and doesn't do terrible damage. FFS, at level 9 with PC wealth, Human race, a 20pt buy and within 30ft an archer expert can be at at about +14x2/+14/+9(1d8+6+1d6 acid/19-20x3,average 10.5+3.5 acid), while the vigilante can be at about +10/+10/+5/+5(1d6+6,average 9.5) against touch. That ate ALL of both their feats to do that (the above+PBS,PS,RS), and 2 of the 4 talents the vigilante has. Against 21 AC(expected CR8 AC) the archer is dealing around 40 damage. Against 12 touch (given that most level 1 PCs have at least this, it seems like a reasonable number), the warlock is dealing about 31 damage. Oh yeah, and the archer can engage outside of 30 feet.
Yep. Frankly mystic bolts look disturbingly like a trap, and the Warlock is better off just being an archer with arcane strike and a free feat(clustered shots?), since they don't need to pick up proficiency like the expert.
Elemental Battle Armor is pretty weak before you get Immunity to [Element(lets be honest, it will usually be Fire)]. 1d6 once per round is really piss weak, and it is often going to be resisted unless you go for the one you expect to be used the least(probably lightning), but in that case the resistance/immunity aspect is almost completely wasted. It isn't worth picking up before level 12 unless you have a slot open that you can't fill with something immediately useful.
Bond of Blood needs a lot of buffing...You know, if you took Arcane Training 2 you could cast False Life twice per day...or you could do something else. Seems significantly better. Blood Armor as a swift is almost useless to someone who will be walking around in enchanted armor, and it stops you arcane striking that round.
The only one I agree is good is Educated Defence.
So...1 feat worth taking so far. Not very good. Amusingly, the vigilante can take the arcane spell failure negation feat at 2, Educated Defense at 6, and the spellcasting talents. That keeps you sorted till 12. So much for alternative options.
FedoraFerret,
Bond of Blood requires weapon use on a 3/4 bab class not focusing on spells and only given you a bonus 1 hour then vanish. One 2nd level gives a better amount that doesn't vanish over time. Blood armor is about the most interesting ability you gain from it. Not seeing this beating casting.
Educated Defense: An actual nice ability. If every ability was cool like this, people would actually have to think about picking casting.
Elemental Battle Armor: Interesting ability but not one that jumps out at lower levels as resist energy is a long lasting 2nd level spell, protection from energy is 3rd and long lasting and once high level hits, the auto elemental damage is less nifty as resistances become the norm, which is also the reason bolts is less nifty with the axed damage.
The sad fact is a crappy caster is still pretty awesome, meaning to compete the other talents have to be awesome too and most aren't.
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No single talent in the warlock list is worth giving up spellcasting for.I'd contest that on the grounds that even with every level of spellcasting Warlock isn't really a good spellcaster anyway. Personally I think the two best talents aside from casting and Mystic Bolts are Educated Defense and Elemental Battle Armor. The former is really strong against enemy casters, getting to completely invalidate or even reverse a spell onto them is kind of amazing, especially given that it has an entirely independent pool of resources. Elemental Battle Armor mostly just good for a melee Warlock, but potentially decent for other builds. I also think with some buffing (screw Blood Armor, get some decent scaling and potentially the ability to use for more than one battle) Bond of Blood could be pretty strong as well for a Warlock who wants to focus on a weapon.
You go take Educated defense and elemental battle armor, while I haste my party and dispel enemy spells, not to mention make my party barbarian stronger, and me invisible as I'm trying to fill in for a rogue to scout ahead. I think my level 2 and 3 spells will outpower you, even as a "weak" caster.