I'm certain I read an official answer to this somewhere, but for the life of me I can't find it now. But what applies first: bonuses or penalties to rolls or effects? One of my players stumbled onto a combination of mechanics that would provide both a 50% increase and decrease to a particular effect. Now, mathmatically, they generally come out to about the same regardless of which comes first, but because of the nature of rounding and such there is a difference (albeit a subtle one).
So when you have multiple bonuses or penalties in a situation, what's the protocol for sorting out which comes first?
I try to resolve it by asking which happens first in the order of play.
For example, an attack bonus applies when you make an attack, while a defense bonus applies when you react to that attack. Since you cannot react to an attack before it happens, then obviously the attack begins before the reaction to it begins, therefore the attack bonuses are applied before the defense bonuses are applied.
If a situation arises where I cannot rule it that way, then I rule for the PC.
I mean, really, if the players get too uppity about me ruling in their favor, I can always find a Tarrasque or two to shut them up. I don't even have to look very far...
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Another useful suggestion might be to do your rounding only once, at the end, after all bonuses. Hint: try canceling out identical opposite bonuses/penalties, such as your example of +50% and -50%; it makes for less maths.
Then the math is always the same.
Unless you're both adding and multiplying in which case, follow the mathematical order of operations and then round at the end.
I would simply let the effects apply in whatever order is most beneficial to the person making the roll. (Outside of PEMDAS, of course.)
isn't it 75% of the original effect regardless of what order they're in?
don't round until the end of the sequence btw.
I believe the default is that it applies in whatever the defender's best interests are, just like the players get (i.e. when applying fire resistance and the like).
Example: Fire Res 10, 12 pt fire attack.
The defender gets the better of applying his fire resistance before the save or after, whatever is better for him.
For instance: BOOM, roll save -
Makes It - 6 pts of fire dmg, 10 pts resistance, takes no damage.
Fails it: 12 pts fire dmg, take 2.
If the offender got to pick, he'd have to apply fire res BEFORE the save, every time, meaning defender would always take at least 1 pt of dmg.
Ergo, defender chooses.
==Aelryinth
I believe the default is that it applies in whatever the defender's best interests are, just like the players get (i.e. when applying fire resistance and the like).
Example: Fire Res 10, 12 pt fire attack.
The defender gets the better of applying his fire resistance before the save or after, whatever is better for him.
For instance: BOOM, roll save -
Makes It - 6 pts of fire dmg, 10 pts resistance, takes no damage.
Fails it: 12 pts fire dmg, take 2.
If the offender got to pick, he'd have to apply fire res BEFORE the save, every time, meaning defender would always take at least 1 pt of dmg.
Ergo, defender chooses.
==Aelryinth
Actually there isn't a choice here. Save determines how much damage you take, resistance then subtracts from that damage. No one has any choice in order.
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As a general guide, take what is worse for the player. This has had many posts on the forums suggesting, but there is only one FAQ that touches on this concept. The FAQ on what level does a metamagic spell use in items or abilities that consider the spell level. They use the worse for the player.
So things like "you take 50% more damage" and "you take 50% of the damage" would be the same damage (sure rounding could nudge a bit here or there.)
This is different than making a save for half then having resistance. It should be applied that way (save first then resist resulting damage.)
As a general guide, take what is worse for the player. This has had many posts on the forums suggesting, but there is only one FAQ that touches on this concept. The FAQ on what level does a metamagic spell use in items or abilities that consider the spell level. They use the worse for the player.
So things like "you take 50% more damage" and "you take 50% of the damage" would be the same damage (sure rounding could nudge a bit here or there.)
This is different than making a save for half then having resistance. It should be applied that way (save first then resist resulting damage.)
I wouldn't use that FAQ as trying to set some kind of general precedent for rulings. It is specific to metamagic feats and how they effect spell level/casting level/effective spell level.
We really need the specific example before being able to try and determine how the bonus and penalties might stack.
Here's the specific situation, which I couldn't recall off-hand when I made my initial post (but if I put off the post to ask, I'd have forgotten to post it):
I have someone playing a Paladin with the Oath of Charity, which has the following feature:
Charitable Hands (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin with this oath heals 50% less when she uses lay on hands on herself, but 50% more than the normal amount when she uses it to heal others. Using lay on hands to harm undead deals the normal amount of damage. This ability otherwise works like and replaces lay on hands.
And then he's looking at taking Word of Healing, which does:
Benefit: You may use your lay on hands to heal another creature at a range of 30 feet as a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to speak and have a free hand to use this ability. The target heals half the amount they would have healed if you had touched them, but gains the benefits of your mercies as normal.
If you round off every step of the way (add/subtract 50%, round down, add/subtract 50%, round down again), the order in which the effects are applied has a very minor difference. It's like one point. But a) my group feels better knowing we're doing it right (or close enough) and not just fudging on someone's behalf, and b) we've all had a situation where a single hit point makes all the difference. Thus, the question.
(Also, it occurs to me as I type this that source of effect might matter as well; there might be a class feature vs. feat priority I've forgotten)
While I'm here, I'd like to take a moment to thank people for their thoughts, as all of the solutions posted here have provided some insight.
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technically aren't you supposed to add multipliers before applying them?
x2 on a x2 becomes x3, so wouldn't a x.5 + x1.5 become a x1?
I'm pretty sure that the multiply rules apply.
technically aren't you supposed to add multipliers before applying them?
x2 on a x2 becomes x3, so wouldn't a x.5 + x1.5 become a x1?
That's how I'd do it. No extra math, just rolling the actual heal dice.