The challenge is fine. You failed it here—the idea was for the whole party to contribute, while you crafted a rogue-only attempt that could be defeated by a few permanent alarm spells (or an earth elemental minion).
Lots of people here have partaken in the challenge, including myself. We found the rules quite clear and easy. Just use your imagination.
No. It is on topic Kobold, that is the point.
This entire thread, this entire argument regarding how Martials need more powerful/better/stronger things is ultimately tied to:
"My X class isn't as good/powerful/awesome as Y class and needs a boost."
Thus I pointed out, that rules-abiding martial just murdered the ever-loving crap out of that rules-abiding wizard before the wizard can even get off a shot.
Hey.
Hey look.
This thread is designed with a central conceit. If you do not agree with the central conceit, go to the thread designed to debate it.* Your arguments are derailing, unproductive, unhelpful, and synonym for unhelpful. I'm sorry, but this is not the thread you're looking for.
*Though only because your crowd invaded it, too. Seriously, please stop doing that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, that crowd seems to have mostly avoided this thread. Maybe they mostly use the "too weeaboo" argument as a casual defense and don't expect it to actually hold up to proper scrutiny? It's kind of weird.
Alright... Fine... We will go the descriptive route:
Actually... You are indeed correct... I apologize then Kobold, I never noticed the stipulation about no magical items. So... With that I bow out.* A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
* The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
* The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
* The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
* The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.
Oh, I do apologize for the sarcasm, then. I was mostly getting irritated because I thought you were just ignoring the thread premise. Misunderstandings are a whole other animal. Yet another lesson for KC to not jump to conclusions about people before busting out the alkali flasks.
Next to the barbarian who can rage so hard he grows wings, my 'too anime' limit is actually kinda high.It's interesting that although we've seen plenty of argument that straight martials under the current rules are fine, I don't recall anyone in this thread shooting any of the suggestions down as "too wuxia".
Some preemptively shot down as "I'm sure people will call that too wuxia", but no one actually saying "That's too much for me."
He's flexing so hard his shoulderblades burst out of his flesh, surrounded by bulging feathery "muscles".
You're welcome.
Yeah, that crowd seems to have mostly avoided this thread. Maybe they mostly use the "too weeaboo" argument as a casual defense and don't expect it to actually hold up to proper scrutiny? It's kind of weird.Thing is it's really an indefensible argument. And an unassailable one at the same time, since it's basically just "I don't like it."
And who can argue with that?
Well, that's kinda the point. I think the goal of this thread is to find ways to make fighters and such cool that those people can like. And I won't lie, I myself like games where non-magic stuff stays fairly realistic. I may be one of the most anti-"wuxia" people on this thread, really (I don't mind that sort of setting, but I necessarily don't want it to be everything I play in PF). So I like the idea of finding more "mundane" ways for epic martials to shine.
Next to the barbarian who can rage so hard he grows wings, my 'too anime' limit is actually kinda high.It's interesting that although we've seen plenty of argument that straight martials under the current rules are fine, I don't recall anyone in this thread shooting any of the suggestions down as "too wuxia".
Some preemptively shot down as "I'm sure people will call that too wuxia", but no one actually saying "That's too much for me."
On that note, I'm thinking the best way to approach this challenge is to base it off of the rare good powers martials already get- such as those given to the barbarian- and build off of that.
After all if it [or similar to it] are already in Pathfinder it's pretty hard to call it 'too wuxia' right? If it was too wuxia then you should be playing something else?
Not really; I assume that the people for whom "too wuxia" is a thing are capable of house-ruling a few over-the-top powers out of their home games.
Ok. So. Here's another attempt.
Since they are high level they roll knowledge local. Gives them knowledge on the wizards tactics.
Ranger uses quarry. Knows where the wizard astray projects from.
Full volley on to the wizards square. Wizard unharmed.
Wizard laughs at the pitiful attempt that did no damage. Hears something at his feet. Looks down .
All his own marbles covered with symbols go off.
The wizard didn't specify that he's immune to his own symbols?
This is way...Here is the TL:DR version:
"The mage won't be able to cast the spell successfully so the argument that he would use it is a moot point."
If we are assuming that the Wizard can pass the check to cast, then we can defeat the spell by just assuming the Fighter passes the save.
why is he starting in melee range?
i mean fine, i ready my action to cast mage's disjunction if the fighter tries to attack me. o-o wut now, i cast before your attack hits me.
on topic: I'm thinking after looking th classes over, that in general we are severely lacking abilities added to classes +10. like awesome blow is the only new thing i see a martial getting after level 11 that isn't an upgrade to some previous power.
The wizard didn't specify that he's immune to his own symbols?Ok. So. Here's another attempt.
Since they are high level they roll knowledge local. Gives them knowledge on the wizards tactics.
Ranger uses quarry. Knows where the wizard astray projects from.
Full volley on to the wizards square. Wizard unharmed.
Wizard laughs at the pitiful attempt that did no damage. Hears something at his feet. Looks down .
All his own marbles covered with symbols go off.
Perhaps the rogue tinkered with who the symbols target. That's actually not too far off from what rogues can do already. ;P
Well, that's kinda the point. I think the goal of this thread is to find ways to make fighters and such cool that those people can like. And I won't lie, I myself like games where non-magic stuff stays fairly realistic. I may be one of the most anti-"wuxia" people on this thread, really (I don't mind that sort of setting, but I necessarily don't want it to be everything I play in PF). So I like the idea of finding more "mundane" ways for epic martials to shine.
Yes, that's exactly the point. It's quite possible to like Beowulf without liking Finn MacCool (I feel that way myself), or to like Batman without liking Superman.
There should be a way to make Badass Normals sufficiently badass to hang with the casters.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The first post said to so I don't see why not.
Ugh, we're still allowing the spells that artificially inflate the wizard's CR by letting him produce allies that aren't accounted for in the CR chart [and aren't Summoned via normal summoning spells]?
Shrug. Not my rules. RAW is law. Take it up with Gygax's ghost.
It's also why I'm not putting forward any ideas.A pity. Just because you can't guarantee a win in one move is no reason not to play the game.
The winning move here is to not play. (Or cheat and use a toned down Wizard). Nonetheless damn plot bunnies already put something to mind so I'll start it here.
Vas crept silently towards the monolithic black fortress. He was only just barely real, or perhaps it was more accurate to say that most of his existence was illusory. Regardless, he slid close to the wall like an afternoon shadow. He paused there spending a moment to See.
Delicate magical threads of energy coursed through the walls invisible to the naked eye, but far more real at the moment then he was. Wards against intrusion. Alarms, Runes and the Like. He wanted to mutter a complaint, but stifled it maintaining his peerless skulking talent despite barely existing.
He reached out one of his white gloved hands and began to work. He may have started his path to Thiefhood twisting out mechanical combinations, but his abilities had advanced with him. Gently nudging a current of arcane energy, he changed its course. Then the next one and the one after that. A delicate work of craftsmanship that rivaled the greatest tapestries was weaved by his hand disabling ward after ward, but leaving them intact enough that even a close look would show them to still be working.
Finished with the outside wards, he drew Null’s Certainty around him like a cloak. It hung tightly to his body flowing like ink over his form. He twisted around and placed his back to the wall and slipped through it. Wordlessly, he stalked through the interior corridors, only really there in the most tentative sense of the word.
Monsters of all shapes and sizes roamed freely inside the fortress. Vas oozed quickly from one shadow to the next, blind to the eyes of those who actually existed. He adjusted his grip on Stroke of Midnight as a particular foul demon drew close. He wanted to avoid combat here. Certainly if it was just this towering demon, there would be no issue to defeating it. But no matter how quietly he could end its life, it might give something away. So he drew deeper into the shadows and held his breathe letting the fiend walk by unscathed for now.
It took some searching but at last he found the target. Tucked away in the inner tower of the fortress, the so called "Archmage" Nerex. He dared not enter the room yet. Not alone. Discretion before valor after all. But before that he had one more task. With practiced ease he disabled the doors locks both real and magical. Twisted it's wards, without letting even a single stray stream of energy escape to give away his presence. There would likely be even more wards inside the chamber, but this was far as he dared tread by himself.
With the movement of habit, he loosened the cloak from his back before hanging it in midair before him. "Clear.", he whispered at the floating void that was Null's Certainty. A gauntleted hand pushed its way out of the black curtain before being followed by the rest of Evaly.
"The target?", Evaly demanded without any preamble. She hefted the massive mirror of ice she used as a shield off her back while simultaneously drawing a sword hilt that was sorely lacking a blade. At least, to the common logic. Vas however could See and the energy that gathered invisibly where the blade should be was even now drawing it's branching paths through the air unseen.
"Inside. About 3 score other combat potentials, between 5-7 Astra worth together." Vas concluded promptly in a low voice. "Should be interesting."
Evaly made a noncommittal noise at that while stepping out of the way so a man sized bear or bear sized man could step out from the emptiness. Orusk effortlessly carried a club twice as tall as Vas himself. The "club" probably had a proper name, but Vas strongly suspected Orusk cared even less about remembering the proper name then he did. The pelt of some furred monstrosity covered Orusk’s back and head which gave an air of menace to man who was already menacing enough for five.
Lesha was the last to exit humming something softly while twirling two small golden crescent edged axes like they were anything but the instruments of death they really were. Several bandoleers that Vas knew to be filled with a eclectic mixes of chemicals, poisons, and potions were strapped within easy reach around her armor, equally as dangerous if not more so than the axes she wielded.
“Vas warn us if you See anything we didn’t plan on. Find a path to Nerex and shut him down immediately. Orusk, if it’s not us, I want it smashed to paste. Plow a path straight towards Nerex. Lesha, provide cover fire and keep everyone’s focus off Vas.”, commanded Evaly. “ Any questions?”
No one responded. So Evaly gave one final order. “Kill them all and don’t let them kill you, easy right?.” Everyone nodded in response to that.
I think we could add Buffy to the list of "Badass Normals", now that I think about it. Sure, her strength and senses are mystically-based, but they aren't exactly magic or "weeaboo". It could all be imitated through pretty mundane effects—high physical stats, lots of combat feats like Blind-Fight and Endurance, some sort of ability to recover from injuries quicker than most (which, honestly, doesn't even need to be fast healing—high-level characters get that naturally—but it could be). The only really magic thing she does is get prophecy dreams.
He reached out one of his white gloved hands and began to work. He may have started his path to Thiefhood twisting out mechanical combinations, but his abilities had advanced with him. Gently nudging a current of arcane energy, he changed its course. Then the next one and the one after that. A delicate work of craftsmanship that rivaled the greatest tapestries was weaved by his hand disabling ward after ward, but leaving them intact enough that even a close look would show them to still be working.
I always like reading interpretations of how a rogue can disable magical traps (barring "sigil" stuff being involved). A favored idea of mine is that the rogue is so good at what she does she can actually twist her will enough to reach into the void of magic where physics don't apply. From there, she just forces the magical threads to take shapes she knows—gears, wires, that sort of thing—and compels them to behave.
He reached out one of his white gloved hands and began to work. He may have started his path to Thiefhood twisting out mechanical combinations, but his abilities had advanced with him. Gently nudging a current of arcane energy, he changed its course. Then the next one and the one after that. A delicate work of craftsmanship that rivaled the greatest tapestries was weaved by his hand disabling ward after ward, but leaving them intact enough that even a close look would show them to still be working.I always like reading interpretations of how a rogue can disable magical traps (barring "sigil" stuff being involved). A favored idea of mine is that the rogue is so good at what she does she can actually twist her will enough to reach into the void of magic where physics don't apply. From there, she just forces the magical threads to take shapes she knows—gears, wires, that sort of thing—and compels them to behave.
Vas can basically shed his existence until he is only as a "real" as a weak Shadow spell. Real enough that he still exists, but illusory enough that for most part he doesn't.
He reached out one of his white gloved hands and began to work. He may have started his path to Thiefhood twisting out mechanical combinations, but his abilities had advanced with him. Gently nudging a current of arcane energy, he changed its course. Then the next one and the one after that. A delicate work of craftsmanship that rivaled the greatest tapestries was weaved by his hand disabling ward after ward, but leaving them intact enough that even a close look would show them to still be working.I always like reading interpretations of how a rogue can disable magical traps (barring "sigil" stuff being involved). A favored idea of mine is that the rogue is so good at what she does she can actually twist her will enough to reach into the void of magic where physics don't apply. From there, she just forces the magical threads to take shapes she knows—gears, wires, that sort of thing—and compels them to behave.
Yes, definitely a very well-written description. Props to Anzyr for purple prose, even before we get to the heroic action sequence.
You could also just consider that he probably has some very specialized thieves tools on hand. Tools that, to an observer look absolutely useless. Not outright magic, but things that conduct magic; the same way casting a fireball without having your bat guano at hand makes it fail, having these could bend it in ways he wants.He reached out one of his white gloved hands and began to work. He may have started his path to Thiefhood twisting out mechanical combinations, but his abilities had advanced with him. Gently nudging a current of arcane energy, he changed its course. Then the next one and the one after that. A delicate work of craftsmanship that rivaled the greatest tapestries was weaved by his hand disabling ward after ward, but leaving them intact enough that even a close look would show them to still be working.I always like reading interpretations of how a rogue can disable magical traps (barring "sigil" stuff being involved). A favored idea of mine is that the rogue is so good at what she does she can actually twist her will enough to reach into the void of magic where physics don't apply. From there, she just forces the magical threads to take shapes she knows—gears, wires, that sort of thing—and compels them to behave.
He does have some specialized tools on hand (Stroke of Midnight, Null's Certainty), but the magic manipulating is a result of him being able to "See". His perception is so good he can literally see what magic is made off. And his Disable Device is so good he can disable magical spells. My idea of a Thief is someone who can steal even non-physical things which means if he wanted to, Vas could walk off with a Ward.
i imagine a rogue is someone who knows how magic works but doesn't cast, if he can disarm a trap he should be able to dispell an effect on someone. :3
...Months prior, the rogue built strong underworld connections, and through her blackmarket ties was able to get all needed magical items at 1/2 price.
A few weeks prior to the raid, the rogue and the ranger go scout out the tower. Naturally, the rogue is able to bypass every trap, sensor, and guard.
Scouting out the area, the rogue gives the ranger a foolproof disguise in seconds, and constructs a disguise for herself that can even trick lifesense and divinations.
The team then sneaks into a laboratory after some time, needing to slay the undead guards and bypass over 100 traps, and to their infinite surprise find a grotesque collection of cadavers, all identical to the wizard. Upon closer inspection, the ranger notices that they don't just look like the wizard, they seem to be identical. The rogue then finds the instruction manual and realizes that these must be his clones. They stuff one in a bag of holding and coat it in the ungent of revivification just in case they need to bring him back alive, and then proceed to sabotage the rest of the clones. The rogue at this point uses his intricate knowledge of anatomy to put small cuts on each clone, inpercievable by most, that would instantly slay them if they started to move.
Then, just as they are leaving, the wizard starts his daily role call (to keep adventurers out), but the rogue is able to trigger a few dozen alarm traps which gives them enough time to escape. But, as the wizard gets near them (to see to the problem), the ranger notices something. He is familiar with humans, knowing how they look, smell, sound, etc. and realizes something is off about this guy. He quickly then takes the scent of the clones, compares the two, and learns something invaluable: the wizard is really on another plane. This is just an astral projection.
Regrouping, the fighter and brawler are irritated that the plan they'd had for months was just shot, but aren't surprised. Wizards are usually smart after all. The fighter,
Nope to wuxia. The characters were using their skills to a mythical degree.
...Months prior, the rogue built strong underworld connections, and through her blackmarket ties was able to get all needed magical items at 1/2 price.
A few weeks prior to the raid, the rogue and the ranger go scout out the tower. Naturally, the rogue is able to bypass every trap, sensor, and guard.
Scouting out the area, the rogue gives the ranger a foolproof disguise in seconds, and constructs a disguise for herself that can even trick lifesense and divinations.
The team then sneaks into a laboratory after some time, needing to slay the undead guards and bypass over 100 traps, and to their infinite surprise find a grotesque collection of cadavers, all identical to the wizard. Upon closer inspection, the ranger notices that they don't just look like the wizard, they seem to be identical. The rogue then finds the instruction manual and realizes that these must be his clones. They stuff one in a bag of holding and coat it in the ungent of revivification just in case they need to bring him back alive, and then proceed to sabotage the rest of the clones. The rogue at this point uses his intricate knowledge of anatomy to put small cuts on each clone, inpercievable by most, that would instantly slay them if they started to move.
Then, just as they are leaving, the wizard starts his daily role call (to keep adventurers out), but the rogue is able to trigger a few dozen alarm traps which gives them enough time to escape. But, as the wizard gets near them (to see to the problem), the ranger notices something. He is familiar with humans, knowing how they look, smell, sound, etc. and realizes something is off about this guy. He quickly then takes the scent of the clones, compares the two, and learns something invaluable: the wizard is really on another plane. This is just an astral projection.
Regrouping, the fighter and brawler are irritated that the plan they'd had for months was just shot, but aren't surprised. Wizards are usually
i'd say more of a sherlock holmes level but what ever. :3
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here are some thoughts I've had on this issue:
1. Like Anzyr and KC mentioned above, cunning heroes (like rogue) should have some ability to "unweave" or otherwise disable / circumvent magical protections. This feels to me like it should be a fairly fine-grained ability, so maybe a skill. Probably not just disable device though, since so many other classes get that. Should be a rogue and rogue-lite class feature (rogue-lite at a penalty). Seems like this maybe should be its own minigame, like decking in Shadowrun (although, not to the point where it bogs things down while everyone else has to wait to play). There should be metamagics that make this harder or impossible to pull off. Edit: LoneKnave's idea about "magic-breaking" tools is a good one.
2. In order to "unweave" magic, you need to be able to sense it. Not sure if this should be baked into the perception skill, made its own skill, or maybe even done through alchemical means. Maybe all of the above. Normally its own skill, rogue talent (or trait, really, this is kinda weak to be its own talent) to let you use regular perception, and a couple alchemical items to let you use perception or just flat out give you the Sight. (Alchemical items kinda needed here since this ability should be shareable.)
3. Brute heroes (fighters and such) need to flat-out be able to cut through spells tossed at them, using only their blade. Probably something innate to the class instead of a weapon enchantment, this should be doable even after picking up a chair leg in a bar fight. Maybe cost a feat, gain the ability to, as an immediate action, (a) make a spellcraft check to identify incoming spell effect (wait, is this already a free or non action?), (b) attempt to "attack" it once identified, or do so with a penalty if the spellcraft check isn't high enough. Might be neat to have blades and blunt weapons affect certain spells differently - blades cut through while blunt weapons smash it aside. Could make for a neat "fizzle / misfire" table for disrupted spells.
4. Stealth needs to work, and there needs to be a way for a stealth character to help the rest of the party not suck at it (as Anzyr painted so vividly above). There are already ways for paladins (as an example) to "steal" the rogue's stealth ranks and share it with the group, but nothing intrinsic to the stealth class itself? Seems wrong to me. This should be something with a resource cost, like alchemical items.
5. Monks need some love too, in this arena. Maybe give them a separate SR for hostile spells only (or cost a feat to be able to select which incoming spells are affected by their SR). Probably should include their Wis mod as a bonus to the SR rating. They'd need spellcraft to identify incoming spells as well.
6. Casters have too many scaling factors, and they're too SAD. Int casters should have their save DCs affected by their Wis mod, Wis casters by Cha mod, and Cha casters by Int mod (or something like that anyway... not the same for everyone). There should also be no bonus spells for high casting stat (they already sort of get more spell slots simply by being able to cast the higher level spells at all).
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cripes. Definitely not gonna read the whole thread, but I've skimmed parts of it.
So, first, an aside: could we stop using the expression "that's too wuxia"? I mean, I'm fine with the actual preference being expressed, but I see a difference between and . The difference I see is similar to the difference between and , or the difference between and . It's a racist slur. (And that's to say nothing of lumping Chinese wuxia together with Japanese anime as though they were basically the same thing, which just adds to the racism.)
Could we please just describe what we do and don't like without attaching racial labels? Thanks.
------------------------------------------------
Now, for my contribution to the thread:
The party walks into the throne room, where they see the wizard standing ready for them. However, the fighter instantly recognizes that it's an illusion of some sort, and his allies recognize a nigh-imperceptible twitch of the fighter's breathing which signals this information to them without the wizard realizing they know.
The fighter and the brawler advance on him: the fighter deflects green and purple rays of energy to guard the brawler, who grabs the illusion/projection by the arm and squeezes.
The whole party hears a scream of pain from somewhere outside to the left, so the brawler throws the illusion hard to the right. The invisible wizard comes crashing through the wall on the left as though he were anchored to his own illusion that just got thrown.
The fighter closes his eyes and focuses on the sound of where the air moves around the wizard's body. Just as the wizard is moving into the air again (because he flies today), the fighter leaps forward and swings his sword, unhindered by all the wizard's protective illusions. The blow strikes hard into the wizard, sending him crashing downwards through the floor.
The wizard now thinks the fighter has made a critical mistake, as the room he's been knocked into is filled with all his dominated monsters. However, his hope turns to despair as he sees the rogue perched casually atop his biggest monster, waving at him: while the combat was starting upstairs, the rogue was down here sabotaging the domination effects, re-writing the enchantments to make the wizard their enemy rather than their master. And the most shocking thing for the wizard is that despite his months of divinations, he has no idea who the rogue is or where he came from.
As the sudden onslaught of a dozen angry monsters further injures the wizard, his contingency goes off, turning him into vapors. He begins to float away, when suddenly the brawler reaches out the window and grabs hold of the end of the wizard's smoky trail as easily as one would grab the tail of a dog. The brawler then begins swinging the misty wizard around like a bolas before slamming him into the side of his own tower in spite of his gaseous form. The walls crack from the impact, and the mist turns red and sinks to the ground. The wizard is dead.
So, first, an aside: could we stop using the expression "that's too wuxia"? I mean, I'm fine with the actual preference being expressed, but I see a difference between and . The difference I see is similar to the difference between and , or the difference between and . It's a racist slur. (And that's to say nothing of lumping Chinese wuxia together with Japanese anime as though they were basically the same thing, which just adds to the racism.)
Could we please just describe what we do and don't like without attaching racial labels? Thanks.
Unfortunately, the isn't an option because the definition of what they're objecting to makes no sense and has no relation to any specific thing so wuxia/anime/celtic/greek/weeabo/mythic is the closest term they can find to describe their position (which has nothing to do with wuxia, anime, mythic, etc... They're fine with it not being realistic, but...you can't have x because it's not realistic... It's just... ugh...
I don't know about "racial", but it is a needlessly derisive term. Speaking as one of the "that's too much" crowd, I'm not really bothered by it, but it's unclear and inconsistent (see re: Cuchulain).
Note that Rogues can disarm traps totally, disarm traps and leave them intact, and figure out how to trigger disarmed traps.
having them able to do so with magical traps isn't even a stretch of the imagination. It's just extending the existing rules with a higher DC (+10 or so).
The rules even exist for instantly disarming traps. So, by extension, a wizard could snap up a sheet of paper with a symbol on it and a Rogue could disarm it even as it manifests!
=============
And btw, Holy Word works on Nongood creatures, NOT just evil creatures. Alignment-based spells tend to do that as you go up in level...work on you if you are not the same alignment, vs working on you if you are the opposite alignment.
So, Holy Word totally affects neutrals.
==Aelryinth
|
Since no one commented on my fixes and they got buried I'll try again
With just a quarter of each person's loot within the vanilla game you could build a team of homuli that could take our anything the wizard could dish out, I'll link you to the proof if you need it.
You could bring back some of the rules from 2e
In 2e each class had restrictions on what magic items they could use and some variation of leadership was a class feature for everybody except the wizard, cleric and bard if I remember right
Having an epically high constitution let you heal faster than normal and a high wisdom made you immune to low level mind control
Armies are totally a thing, and so are magic items but balance isn't super vital, fun is pathfinder isn't a game of rock paper sissors, some options will be more powerful than others,
For wizards drop them back down to d4, health but leave sorcerer at d6 which you can easily explain away by their magic suffusing their bodies which leaves
Take rogue, add all of the things that an unchained rogue can do, all the things a ninja can do, all the things a vanilla rogue can do and the glory rouge archetype/buff, give improved steel as a bonus feat at some point before level 10, give minor magic as a bonus talent at level 1 and major at level 10ish, and a slight increase to movement speed, let's say half of the monk's bonus and an advanced talent option that grants SR and non detection
Give the fighter some kind of ability akin to evasion but for fort or will saves (his choice eg half of stalwart, maybe all of it at a later level) and have the save chosen become a good save, give him some energy resistance to go with his dr
For the gunslinger all he really needs is some special ammunition, and something to make sniping more viable, maybe alchemist's bomb their int # of times per day
The brawler, maybe away to heal himself with booze?
Oh and give all martials equipment trick, throw anything, catch off guard or improved unarmed at first level
Hey, there's another good idea, although not directly related to how to deal with C/MD here...
High physical attributes should have superhuman benefits. To NON CASTERS (so, summoned critters and eidolons and animal companions and such wouldn't get these benefits).
20 Con = fast healing 1 while not in combat, every 2 points above that increases FH rating by 1.
20 Str = reduce all DR by 1, every 2 points above that reduce it by 1 more.
20 Dex = 5% miss chance, every 2 points above that increase by 5% (cap of 50%).
20 Wis = +1 on Fort/Ref saves, every 2 points add 1 more.
Not sure what to do for Int/Cha, but along those lines maybe. Not sure if flat scaling is the way to go, or if maybe we should start lower and require higher increments to scale (first benefit at 18, then 21, 25, 30, 36 etc).
Nope to wuxia. The characters were using their skills to a mythical degree.
Well, since you're the first person to actually raise a complaint about "too wuxia" on this thread, you're invited to expound upon what, exactly, you object to regarding the scenario posed and what, specifically, you consider over-the-top.
Since no one commented on my fixes and they got buried I'll try again
With just a quarter of each person's loot within the vanilla game you could build a team of homuli that could take our anything the wizard could dish out, I'll link you to the proof if you need it.
This is awfully close to "to beat a caster, you need to be a caster."
You could bring back some of the rules from 2e
In 2e each class had restrictions on what magic items they could use and some variation of leadership was a class feature for everybody except the wizard, cleric and bard if I remember right
Having an epically high constitution let you heal faster than normal and a high wisdom made you immune to low level mind controlArmies are totally a thing, and so are magic items but balance isn't super vital, fun is pathfinder isn't a game of rock paper sissors, some options will be more powerful than others,
For wizards drop them back down to d4, health but leave sorcerer at d6 which you can easily explain away by their magic suffusing their bodies which leaves
No nerfing the casters, as per post 1.
Take rogue, add all of the things that an unchained rogue can do, all the things a ninja can do, all the things a vanilla rogue can do and the glory rouge archetype/buff, give improved steel as a bonus feat at some point before level 10, give minor magic as a bonus talent at level 1 and major at level 10ish, and a slight increase to movement speed, let's say half of the monk's bonus and an advanced talent option that grants SR and non detection
The only thing that will really make a difference there is SR and non-detection.
Give the fighter some kind of ability akin to evasion but for fort or will saves (his choice eg half of stalwart, maybe all of it at a later level) and have the save chosen become a good save, give him some energy resistance to go with his dr
Fortitude-based or Will-based evasion is an interesting idea. <scribbles>
I like Super Weight as a baseline for these things.
Casters rank from 3 to 5, while mundanes are stuck at 1.
|
|
In 2e someone martial could heal at a rate of 1 per six rounds, with a 20 con, and faster with higher con
Casters couldn't get bonus hit points beyond 2 per hit dice but martials could have a higher health bonus
Higher than 18 int made you immune to low level illusions and higher than 18 wisdom made you immune to low level enchantments
I like Super Weight as a baseline for these things.
I don't, and some of the scenarios proposed in this thread already should provide you with evidence as to why it's not a good baseline. "Super Weight" measures power primarily in terms of how many people are affected by a given ability, not a person's ability to control their own destiny and certainly not how effective that person is as an opponent.
The article you cites says as much: "When editing lists, remember that the weight classes measure the scope of a character's abilities — what the character is literally capable (and incapable) of with their raw power alone. While people like Batman and The Doctor have been known to take on gods, they do so with intellect and tactics rather than raw power, and thus remain low on the list relative to their defeated opponents. Thus, defeating somebody does NOT necessarily place a character at or above the opposing weight class."
One of the issues with PF is that casters not only have wider-ranging effects, but they've also got abilities that can't be stopped or interfered with by non-magical means. It doesn't matter how high your BAB is if unmitigated invisibility automatically gives you a 50% miss chance. The effect is that you could punch out a dragon -- but not an invisible third level wizard. You could grapple a storm giant, but not a wizard in gaseous form.
Among the things that the scenarios upthread are routinely suggesting are a phenomenal ability to identify the true target without magical aid, and an equally phenomenal ability not to be affected by hostile magic that goes beyond good saves. Those are basically weight 1 abilities, but a fighter who is truly able to prevent spells from hindering his actions -- you turn gaseous? I grapple you anyway! You plane shift? I follow you through the rift in spacetime nonetheless! You summon Cthulhu? I dope-slap him back through the Gate! -- would nevertheless be able to defeat a wizard at the very top of the Super Weight scale.
Super Weight is a useful instrument, but a potentially misleading one.
Evasion for Fortitude does actually exist, with Blessed Fortitude. Think that's a Sacred Fist Warpriest ability. It doesn't come up often.