The ranger, with his brilliant tracking skills, can track a mage from the site of a spell they've cast to their true location—in a secret room two hundred feet of solid stone away that can only be accessed via teleportation.They alert the party, and the fighter destroys the image. The others ready for the mage's return.
The mage, annoyed, teleports in (invisible). The ranger (or the rogue), being nearly impossible to get the jump on, can see the disturbances in the air that indicate where they truly are. Plus, the rogue can potentially smell the smell of magic itself at this point. They loose their own attacks and/or indicate the location to the others.
The fighter, a master with the bow, can aim at the square and fire off numerous arrows at once (like an uber Manyshot), ensuring at least one will hit and thus completely mitigate the miss chance. The brawler, experienced with fighting "up close", can basically smell the mage's perspiration once she gets close, and has no trouble charging and grappling him.
I think we're blurring challenges here. Not that this isn't awesome mind you. But the (second) discussion of project image started with this statement:
What about the brawler's straight-up knockout ability at higher levels? A failed fort save and its game over.I still think the gap is a lot smaller than people make out- assuming the PCS are be played competently and creatively.
Its almost like that should be an organized challenge. 2v2 magic v martials, adhering strictly by rules and WBL.
... to which I pointed out, roughly, that the brawler can't knock out what he can't touch (or see) in the first place.
You're more or less making my point for me -- to be competitive in this, the martials (like the brawler) seem to need non-RAW abilities like the ability to find the wizard in the first place despite his illusions.
Aside from the wall-running, though, a lot of that seems fine.
Well, yes. People eat in wuxia films, too -- but that doesn't make eating "too wuxia." :-P But the wall running, the balancing on bamboo stems, the jumping from floor to floor, and most of the general wire-worked athleticism is (collectively) one of the genre-defining features.
If I had to come up with a definition of "wuxia" -- which I will not do, precisely because I'm not the Universal Arbiter of Taste -- it would start with "any action-movie sequence that can't be filmed without CGI or wire-work."
*Cough*
I totally saw that.
Aside from the wall-running, though, a lot of that seems fine.Well, yes. People eat in wuxia films, too -- but that doesn't make eating "too wuxia." :-P But the wall running, the balancing on bamboo stems, the jumping from floor to floor, and most of the general wire-worked athleticism is (collectively) one of the genre-defining features.
If I had to come up with a definition of "wuxia" -- which I will not do, precisely because I'm not the Universal Arbiter of Taste -- it would start with "any action-movie sequence that can't be filmed without CGI or wire-work."
Dinosaurs are wuxia
Nerf plox;P
If I had to come up with a definition of "wuxia" -- which I will not do, precisely because I'm not the Universal Arbiter of Taste -- it would start with "any action-movie sequence that can't be filmed without CGI or wire-work."Dinosaurs are wuxia
Stop motion isn't wire-work. Ray Harryhausen sends his regards.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Stop motion isn't wire-work.If I had to come up with a definition of "wuxia" -- which I will not do, precisely because I'm not the Universal Arbiter of Taste -- it would start with "any action-movie sequence that can't be filmed without CGI or wire-work."Dinosaurs are wuxia
...Pterodactyls, then? ;)
Dragons (or most big monsters in live-action movies)?
Spellcasters (or most uses of visible "energy")?
Most of the orcs in most of the battle scenes of the LotR trilogy?
Link in the Legend of Zelda series does well enough against flying wizards, without ever doing anything too ridiculous.
He does Dead man's Volley pretty often, but that seems perfectly reasonable.
Link in the Legend of Zelda series does well enough against flying wizards, without ever doing anything too ridiculous.
He does Dead man's Volley pretty often, but that seems perfectly reasonable.
That's because the wizards tend to shoot giant tennis balls at him, and he has the Master Tennis Racket.
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That's because the wizards tend to shoot giant tennis balls at him, and he has the Master Tennis Racket.Link in the Legend of Zelda series does well enough against flying wizards, without ever doing anything too ridiculous.
He does Dead man's Volley pretty often, but that seems perfectly reasonable.
Fun aside: the bug-catching net works just as well as the Master Sword in that fight. Not even kidding.
Stop motion isn't wire-work....Pterodactyls, then? ;)
Dragons (or most big monsters in live-action movies)?
Spellcasters (or most uses of visible "energy")?
Most of the orcs in most of the battle scenes of the LotR trilogy?
It's not "was done in this particular instance without CGI or wire-work", it's "couldn't be filmed without CGI or wire-work".
Might not look as good. Might be more expensive. The orcs, for example, certainly could have been done by using thousands of extras in make up. It was just cheaper to CGI them.More generally, since we're talking about martial abilities here, casters and monsters get a pass. That's the distinction. Casters and monsters get to use CGI. Martials have to use stuntmen - and no wires.
+1. I was going to write something similar, but I defer to better phrasing.
Link in the Legend of Zelda series does well enough against flying wizards, without ever doing anything too ridiculous.
He does Dead man's Volley pretty often, but that seems perfectly reasonable.
everything dies in 1-3 hits...
My fighter melts into a puddle of clay and trickles through the crack in the floor.
My fighter melts into a puddle of clay and trickles through the crack in the floor.
Yeah, nothing about that screams a lack of realism. Or of sarcasm.
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My fighter melts into a puddle of clay and trickles through the crack in the floor.
this kills the fighter.
My fighter melts into a puddle of clay and trickles through the crack in the floor.Yeah, nothing about that screams a lack of realism. Or of sarcasm.
Hey, it works in stop-motion!
Hey, it works in stop-motion!My fighter melts into a puddle of clay and trickles through the crack in the floor.Yeah, nothing about that screams a lack of realism. Or of sarcasm.
M. y. . f. i. g. h. t. e. r. . m. e. l. t. s. . i. n. t. o. ....
You know, you're right!
Like the old AD&D days where at a certain level you were supposed to settle down, build a stronghold of some kind and you'd get a whole bunch of followers. Which was great if you were playing a game about building a kingdom or becoming nobles and running a fief or something. If you were in the middle of an epic trek across planes to stop a Dark God, it doesn't work so well.
It would still work if you gathered the army wherever you were. Epic quest into Hell to stop an archdevil, and the first time you kill a few abishai and bearded devils and kytons, the rest so awed by your martial prowess ("That 'mortal' didn't even use magic! He must be a god!") that they vow to serve you.
I think it works best if it's a limited use thing. Like, once per month, you can rally up a force to help you in one conflict—a town militia, an angry mob, a bunch of thieves owing called-in favors, a cowed orc tribe. Not a constant army that just follows you around everywhere you go.
@ thejeff actual rolled for people or people that are joining you in an actual battle should be a group of fighters with the troop subtype.
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I'm not utterly opposed, but I really don't like it as a main part of the martial's answer to casters.
Well, maybe we can abstract the difficulties away. Ultimate Campaign provides abstractions of most of what the peasants you'd be rallying would provide -- Goods, Influence, and Labor. These can in turn be used to produce either small units of people with various levels of (and types of) skills, or actual physical objects such as field fortifications.
I'm thinking here of those scenes in The Seven Samurai where the titular samurai, tasked with defending the village, are rallying the farmers to defend the village (via ramparts, fences, palisades, and whatnot) as well as to arm themselves (via the weapons they've hidden away) and practice with the weapons they have. Wouldn't it be cool if fighters could do the same thing?
Give them the ability to summon instantly and for free (and to spend faster-than-usual) some fairly large amount of capital, so that overnight, they could turn a sleepy farm village into fortified one, or commandeer and man some ships, or build watchtowers,....
Or, for that matter, create a unit of elite archers and another of elite cavalry if you really want armed henchmen.
I see this as having several advantages
* It doesn't really step on anyone's core toes
* It provides a utility power to martials, similar to a wizard's use of fabricate or wall of stone
* It captures some of the more iconic (but not wuxia) moments in cinema
* It provides settlements with reasons to want fighters (specifically) around rather than rangers or paladins, even.
* It provides players in world-building games reasons to want fighters
* It's cool
Of course, since I'm stealing the idea from The Seven Samurai, I guess we should let cavaliers have this toy, too....
We could also give it to rogues, for roughly the same reason. As an added benefit, one of the things you can do with Influence (IIRC) is spend it for skill bonuses, so this would essentially give the rogue a floating powerup that she could use to make sure she could do the iconic rogue things like sneak, climb, pick locks, detect traps, and whatnot. If we give her her level squared in one-off bonus points, a 20th level rogue would have 20 uses of a +20 bonus that would be enough to make her skill roll unopposably high.
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The fighter kicks the door open...
* A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
* The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
* The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
* The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
* The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.
This is already better than some of the Pathfinder novelizations.
Anyway, yeah. Fighters are badass. Trouble with discussing them online [versus casters], is those casters tend to be "quantum casters", i.e., whoever is arguing for them assumes they have the most useful spell for any given situation at-the-ready and that everyone fails their saving throws.
Fighters are badass. Trouble with discussing them online [versus casters], is those casters tend to be "quantum casters", i.e., whoever is arguing for them assumes they have the most useful spell for any given situation at-the-ready and that everyone fails their saving throws.
Shrug. That should be less of a problem in this case, because you also get "quantum martials," who not only have the most useful ability for any given situation, but have it at an arbitrarily high level. If the reason that fighters Suck Mongoose Turds is simply because they don't have the ability to re-prepare feats on a daily basis, assume that they can, and see where it takes you.
so, i'm throwing together a badass tier system(literally decided to call it badass tiers) to give martials an edge, Orfamay if you could share any notes you have it would be welcome.
everyone else that can throw out some mechanics that are top of the line mundane. note: they may have prereqs for certain class abilities, I already have one that makes bravery very much awesome, and a chain to make trapfinding really good.
Fight Through It
Prereq: BT 4
Description: The badass gains fast healing 1. This is not the badass’s ability to heal quickly, but his ability to adjust or otherwise ignore damage that would have killed a non-badass a while ago. This bonus doubles whenever the badass is resting(not moving or performing any task that requires concentration). Even a badass could use a breather before moving on to the next fight.
Aura of Determination
Prereq: Fight Through It, BT 8
Description: The badass’s fast healing from Fight Through It increases to 2, and whenever the badass is resting(not moving or performing any task that requires concentration), this bonus applies to anyone resting with him. Any given character can only gain the benefits of one Aura of Determination as multiple auras do not stack. It’s hard not to try to live up to someone so badass.
Mount
Prereq: -
Description: The badass gains a mount as the cavalier’s class feature by the same name. This ability counts as the mount class feature for prerequisites.
Legendary Mount
Prereq: ability to gain an animal companion or mount
Description: The badass’s mount from their class feature is exceptionally badass at being a mount. It can carry double the amount of riders outside of combat(all people exceeding the normal limit are flat footed and cannot attack until they dismount) and run without ever taking nonlethal damage or ever becoming fatigued. All forms of movement your mount possess improve by 10ft.
Mettle
Prereq: -
Description: If the badass makes a successful Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that normally deals an effect on a successful save, she instead is not affected by the spell at all.
Evasion
Prereq: -
Description: If the badass makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage.
Steel Bravery
Prereq: Bravery class feature
Description: The badass may apply their bravery bonus to all Mind Affecting and Illusionary saving throws, not just saving throws against fear.
Magic Finding
Prereq: Trapfinding class feature
Description: The badass may make a perception check instead of a knowledge(arcana) check to identify a spell effect that is in place. The badass’s Trapfinding perception bonus applies to this roll. The badass can dispel magic in a mundane way using their knowledge of magic, as a standard action they can dispel as the spell, using a disable device check in place of a dispel check. You may only counterspell is you threaten the target.
Illusory Finding
Prereq: Magic Finding, BT 10
Description: The badass may make a perception check at -10 to disbelieve an illusion instead of a will saving throw. The badass’s Trapfinding perception bonus applies to this roll. The badass may make a dispel check against this illusion to be able to track the source of the illusion via the small pathways of magic used to control the illusion. On success the badass can see a golden strand between the illusion and it’s caster or source.
Evil Sense
Prereq: detect evil class feature
Description: The badass can detect evil innately. whenever a creature of with an evil aura moves within 30 feet of the badass, the badass receives a mental ping that raises him from sleep but does not otherwise impede concentration. This effect is countered or suppressed by anything that can do such to the Detect evil spell, however it cannot be dispelled.
Militia
Prereq: BT 6
Description: The badass gains a small retinue of faithful individuals who can be summoned to help him in a time of need. He can use this ability 3/month and gains a number of followers equal to half his badass level for one mission. This mission must be explained before they take on the mission. The followers’ level is half the badass tier of the badass, and the followers are of like mind of the badass and will have the same alignment and will likely be the same or similar classes as the badass. These followers aren’t always the same individuals called with each use and may be unique to the situation at hand, and may be replaced with appropriate CR creatures at the GM’s discretion.
Army
Prereq: BT 12
Description: The badass gains the respect of a large force of armed men and women, and can command them on the battlefield. He can use this ability 3/year, as the army is not directly owned by him and simply impressed by his badassery. The Army must be given an objective and will return to it’s normal duties after the army has completed this objective. This force should have a Army challenge rating equal to the badass’s badass tier -2. individual members of this army cannot have a level or CR greater than half the badass’s badass tier. The badass’s army need not be the same army every time and may be unique to the situation at hand.
Always Angry
Prereq: BT 8
Description: the badass chooses one barbarian rage power and gains it’s benefits even while not raging. Any ability that is 1/rage instead becomes 1/hour. Use your Badass tier as your effective barbarian level. you must meet the prerequisites of the rage power in addition to the prerequisite of this badass talent to take a rage power in this manner. This ability can be taken an additional time for every additional 4 badass tiers you gain(2 at BT 12, 3 at BT 16 and 4 at BT 20).
Hate of Magic
Prereq: cannot cast arcane spells
Description: the badass hates arcane magic so intensely it shuns him, gain spell resistance equal to 12+the badass’s tier against arcane spells.
Hate of the Faithful
Prereq: cannot cast divine spells
Description: the badass hates Divine magic so intensely it shuns him, gain spell resistance equal to 12+the badass’s tier against Divine spells.
All Skill
Prereq: 6 ranks in chosen skill
Description: the badass halves the normal amount of time it takes to use a skill check. if the skill check uses less than 1 round to perform decrease it’s required action by 1 step. This talent may be taken multiple times, each time it applies to a different skill.
Such Finesse, wow much dexterity
Prereq: -
Description: choose one weapon that is not affected by weapon finesse. it is now affected by weapon finesse as if it were a light weapon.
Strip the Flesh
Prereq: BT 4
Description: The badass doesn’t need to dodge attacks he can power through them. The badass adds their constitution modifier (instead of their Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class. This armor bonus counts as an inherent natural armor bonus. The badass therefore only loses their “dexterity” bonus against AC against touch attacks.
My Body is Ready
Prereq: Strip the Flesh, BT 8
Description: The Badass is always ready as his body always has the energy to continue on. The badass adds their constitution modifier (instead of their Dexterity modifier) to their initiative rolls.
Their going to have to update the Crime Code:
“We’re advancing. Formation 3 Lesha.” Evaly ordered. With a burst of motion, she lowered her shield and charged forward through the ravenous darkness. Lesha shifted slightly to move behind Evaly’s charge, relying on memory and practice to juggle Morning Glory in the magical blackness as she applied a combination of oils to her weapons.
Evaly tore free from the clinging shadows first only to be greeted by another horde of fiends. Some towering monstrosity moved to crush her beneath a massive clawed hand, but with a casual motion of her bladeless hilt, it’s real blade revealed itself in flash of light and scorched air. A bolt of raw energy forked and separated from the hilt, searing foul flesh even as it arced through the monster effortlessly.
Only a step behind her, Lesha emerged with all her preparations complete. Unlike before, pale grey flames flickered in shades nearing black and white across Morning Glory, each burning mutely without appearing to heat or warp the metal. Then they took the sky at once, whirling brands of bladed fire. Whirling end over end, they cleaved through the robed figures in the back like practice targets. And where the axes fell the grey flames grew, devouring the figures until they became nothing more than a mass of pale otherworldly fire.
Then the boundary of existence itself cracked and ultimately shattered. Orusk returned to the plane accompanied by the shattered remnants of the spell that had spirited him away. Without pausing, he leapt out of the supernatural blackness only looking to orient himself once he had cleared its radius. The hulking demon that was his assigned target still stood and so with rush of air and rapidly moving, very dense wood, he brought his club down on it’s head and followed it’s path all the way to the ground.
The demon hit the polished stones with a sickening sound as Orusk himself stood tall despite now being surrounded on all sides by enemies. He let loose a guttural roar from somewhere deep within his chest and a majority of the enemies already reeling from Evaly’s decree, froze in place unable to act. Seeing their reactions, a satisfied smirk spilled across Orusk’s face. “Miss me?”, he asked no one in particular.
“Vas, take out the other one. Lesha soften it up.” Evaly commanded. She pointed out another great winged fiend that stood between them and Nerex. Despite already maintaining an intense amount of effort, the order nonetheless compelled motion from Lesha and she hurled oil coated axe after oil coated axe. Yellow and green. Black and red. Vas did not know what each concoction did, but knew from experience they would render the target more vulnerable.
Vas stepped through the intervening space and appeared instantly next to the winged demon that was now suffering from multiple wounds. He was thief by trade and by definition thieves stole things of value from others. And the most valuable things people possessed were not mere objects. And so Vas made himself mostly real, reached out, and stole the enemy’s Luck.
Unnoticed, the enemy’s Luck was taken from it, unaware and unresisted. And so Vas continued to take what was not his. Suffering from the wounds Lesha had inflicted and it’s Luck taken from it by force, the fiend was sufficiently weakened. And so Vas took the greatest prize that any brigand could claim. He stole the demon’s Life.
Not in the metaphorical sense. He could have slipped Stroke of Midnight directly into the foul creature’s heart. He could have ended it’s life instantly and abruptly and one might say that he had “stolen it’s life”. But to say that would be a disservice to his skill. He had grabbed the demon’s very Life and ripped it from it’s body. And thus it fell, it’s Life taken from it by a master thief.
too wuxia
Heh.
Oh you know what i find funny? Casters can get away with Wuxia lol. I was thinking about it and you know what sounds Wuxia as all hell? Bladed dash And even worse, the greater version. You apparent move so dfast you leave a multi hued after image aS you move and slash the enemy, and greater bladed dash is straight anime as you hack.at everything along your path as well... THAT looks wuxia as hell... or Force Hook Charge. You fly and swing!
Except Bladed Dash doesn't have to look Wuxia at all. It can just as easily be described as simple martial excellence, swiftly moving and slicing everything in your path.
Unfortunately, the best illustration I have for it comes out of an anime, but it's a Middle-Eastern themed anime with fairly realistic mundanes and magic is explicitly called out as magic.
Except if that is the case then that means Magus possess even more martial excellence than fighters... which actually isnt that far off..
Honestly if there were spells i would get rid of it would be the spells that let the caster do martial stuff...
Another example Of this rediculousness is the dance of hundred/ thousand cuts... it really should be a martial ability, not a spell...
Honestly if there were spells i would get rid of it would be the spells that let the caster do martial stuff...
Another example Of this rediculousness is the dance of hundred/ thousand cuts... it really should be a martial ability, not a spell...
You'd have to seriously slice open the Cleric spell list.
And all the 2/3rds casters with the possible exception of Summoner [who has his own problems :P]
Im ok with that lol. When casters get better than martials at their own shtick, i see that as a problem... Give clerics more versatile heals (like granting a Decent fast healing) and unique control and blast options (like shackling a creature with divine chains of perdition or smiting creatures with Exalted/Profane damage) and stronger summoning feel (summoning the herald of their Diety or something). Bards are supposed to be masters of charm and illusions anyway...
I wouldn't support cutting out cool Magus tricks like Bladed Dash; the Magus spell list is extremely limited so it can support having stuff like that. Buff martials instead.
The Cleric list though? Destroy it. Destroy it all.
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These are some "plausible" things I want martials to do. Why can't I run along walls to avoid an enemy? I had an old DM tell me I couldn't do that with my Swashbucklery character because it wasn't possible....
so, i'm throwing together a badass tier system(literally decided to call it badass tiers) to give martials an edge, Orfamay if you could share any notes you have it would be welcome.
Of course. It looks like you opened another thread for that discussion, so I'll probably go there, so as to not produce the Mother of All Derails here when we start talking mechanics instead of narrative.
Except Bladed Dash doesn't have to look Wuxia at all. It can just as easily be described as simple martial excellence, swiftly moving and slicing everything in your path.
Agreed. It could simply be an ability called Deft Footwork that lets you take a single move action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, or it could be an ability called Improved Deft Footwork that lets you take a single move action as above and attack at any point along the path (for a total of a move+attack full round action) or an ability called Greater Deft Footwork that lets you attack everything along the path of Improved Deft Footwork. That's still not quite equal to the Bladed Dash series but it's pretty close.
(And of course, if we're dropping feat trees, we make these into one scaling ability.)
These are some "plausible" things I want martials to do.
I don't see anything implausible in that. But I hope you see the difference between those clips and the Crouching Tiger ones earlier.
These are some "plausible" things I want martials to do. Why can't I run along walls to avoid an enemy? I had an old DM tell me I couldn't do that with my Swashbucklery character because it wasn't possible....
all of that would get them killed by an actual fighter funny enough.
Yes, because actual violence isn't supposed to be fun. I was under the impression D&D was.
all of that would get them killed by an actual fighter funny enough.These are some "plausible" things I want martials to do. Why can't I run along walls to avoid an enemy? I had an old DM tell me I couldn't do that with my Swashbucklery character because it wasn't possible....
So?