Ok so I am looking at a Paladin or maybe a Barbarian and I am wondering what suggestions people have for a Sword-and-Board build.
I really like the idea of smashing my shield into them, stunning them with the sheer force of the blow, then cutting them down with my blade!
I'd appreciate any ideas, existing builds, class dips, etc. that people have come up with.
Thanks!
A slayer taking the Sword and Board Ranger style is a really good base. The trick is to consider your shield your primary weapon with a light offhand weapon like a kukri. There is some opportunity for two weapon fighting but a bulrush build ties in better with shield slam. That and a +5 heavy spiked shield of bashing bypasses all damage reduction, has +5 to hit and 2d6+5 damage base, manage to set up flanking and SA starts piling on.
For shield bash builds you really have to go either Ranger or Slayer to get early access to shield slam and shield master. Viking might also be an option but it's prolly not as strong.
You can also consider using only a shield as a Two handed weapon.
Check out the spiked destroyer feat in combination with shield slam., sounds kinda what you are interested in.
Another unconventional but interesting option is Amateur Swashbuckler for Parry and Riposte as a spiked shield of bashing is actually the best one handed piercing weapon.
Phalanx Soldier has the polearm and shield style for fun with reach.
The problem the rest of the builds run into is that you are pulling feats with both dex and str requirements and it makes you really MAD. The problem with the style you want is that it relies on dex for two weapon fighting and str for bull rushes. You can get around needing too much strength by grabbing a light shield and a rapier, not the worst idea for a Paladin actually, and getting Weapon Finesse. You can get around needing too much dex by using ranger style feats to ignore prerequisites, but now you have a Ranger or a Slayer instead of a Paladin or a Barbarian.
Phalanx Soldier has the polearm and shield style for fun with reach.
The problem the rest of the builds run into is that you are pulling feats with both dex and str requirements and it makes you really MAD. The problem with the style you want is that it relies on dex for two weapon fighting and str for bull rushes. You can get around needing too much strength by grabbing a light shield and a rapier, not the worst idea for a Paladin actually, and getting Weapon Finesse. You can get around needing too much dex by using ranger style feats to ignore prerequisites, but now you have a Ranger or a Slayer instead of a Paladin or a Barbarian.
That's actually the reason why two handing a shield is a good idea :)
That's actually the reason why two handing a shield is a good idea :)
I agree. I like the heavy shield in two hands style too, but I figured it wasn't what the OP wanted.
3 levels of Phalanx Fighter can let you carry a reach weapon in one hand. That can be useful for making AoOs on foes when they get pushed away and then try to move back in. If you're into mounted combat you could go for something similar without the Phalanx Fighter levels by using a lance in one hand. Oddly enough I think you'd still get the 1.5 Str mod to damage and increased Power Attack ratio with the lance even if you're also wielding a shield.
Paladins, Barbarians, and of course Cavaliers can all get pretty decent mounts. Even the watered down FAQ version of RAGELANCEPOUNCE could still do a lot of damage. Using Lunge you could potentially make a few lance attacks and then a shield attack to push the foe back and set up an AoO or another pounce. If you're riding a Wolf with Lunge I guess you could try to Trip the foe too.
I like the reach Shield Slam build using a Bloodrager with the Aberrant Bloodline and the Long Arm spell.
Requires 15+ Dexterity for Shield Slam Tree.
Level 1: Improved Shield Slam, Human(Power Attack).
Level 3: Improved Bull Rush
Level 5: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 7: Shield Slam
Level 9: Greater Bull Rush
Level 11: Shield Master
You may prefer fighting with a large shield and Cestus, so you can choose when to twf and when to two hand the shield. Another option is to dual wield shields, but not all tables will allow this and it keeps you from using your hands in combat for other things.
Using an AoO from someone charging you to Bull Rush them away is great fun.
Edit: Forgot about the Bloodline Bonus Feats. So,
Level 6: Combat Reflexes
Level 9: Improved Initiative
The 2h shield sounds interesting. Can you go into some more detail with regard to the items and feats that I would be looking at? Thanks!
y'know theres a really awesome brawler archetype called a Shield Champion. I'm currently playing one. at 7th level you can perform Bullrushes, Dirty Tricks, Disarms and Repositions and Trips with your Thrown shield. and if you have a Throwing Shield. its only a 50gp modification to your shield. you don't provoke any attacks of opportunity with it.
So at level 7 when you nab Shield Slam, you'll essentially be able to do it not only in close combat but at ranged as well. plus at level 5 you'll have the returning shield ability which basically means your shield returns to you at the end of the turn.
its my personal favourite shield focused build.
Has anyone had success combining Shield Slam with Vicious Stomp?
Shield Slam can knock opponents prone if they run out of squares and that should trigger an AoO from Vicious Stomp.
I haven't figured out a way to get that into a coherent build, has anyone else?
If so was it worth it?
@Gregory Connolly - I am using Shield Slam and Vicious Stomp on separate PCs but think they would work well together. If I wanted them both on one PC I might consider multiclassing as a Monk or Brawler to get the prereq feats.
The Unchained combat trick for Shield Slam would help a lot with knocking foes prone. Topping everything off with Enforcer and Hurtful would debuff the enemy and potentially get you another free attack as a swift action. The Vicious Stomp + Enforcer + Hurtful combo has worked great for me though I've been triggering it with normal trip attacks rather than Shield Slam.
The 2h shield sounds interesting. Can you go into some more detail with regard to the items and feats that I would be looking at? Thanks!
Ranger or Slayer for 6 levels any race you like but human or half orc are preferable. Start with 18 STR and 14 CON the rest is up to you. Pray to Gorum.
1 Improved Shield Bash
2 Shield Slam
3 Powewr Attack
5 Spiked Destroyer
6 Shield Master
Buy a heavy shield of bashing as soon as possible. With shield master you can enhance both your shield as well as your shield spikes for a de facto +10 weapon and +5 shield which is wielded two handed and deals 2d6 base damage.
I like the idea of adding amateur swashbuckler/extra panache and combat reflexes for parry and riposte with your shield. Add in the swordmaster's flair and you can increase your reach by an additional 5 feet as the spiked heavy shield of bashing is a one handed piercing weapon. A human slayer can pull this off easily by level 6.
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I am wondering what suggestions people have for a Sword-and-Board build.I really like the idea of smashing my shield into them, stunning them with the sheer force of the blow, then cutting them down with my blade!
*WARNING! WALL OF TEXT!*
As stated by the others the best sword and board is the Ranger or Slayer, with the ranger's combat style "weapon and shield".
Why? because you don't have to concern yourself with the requirements that normally hold all of this awesomeness out of reach! I.e. needing about 11th level as compared to 6th.
Traits: Shield bearer (must have), and either armor expert (reduce skill check penalty by 1) or reactionary (+2 initiative)
It may behoove you to take "Shield trained" so that you can use heavy shields as light weapons (best for two weapon fighting penalty reduction AND bashing damage!
Skills: you can survive, navigate cross country, track, warn your group away from hazards, provide a measure of support with the heal skill and 4th level spell casting.
You can be stealthy when it is called for; heck, go along with your rogue anywhere. you will be welcome to. a rogue needs a partner to flank with!
Skill ranks? this is a 6+class so congratulate yourself for escaping 2+ ranks with skill check penalty retardation and a crappy set of class skills!
Weapons: Try a Klar, scimitar, and short bow.
Why?
Klar, light shield that does 1d6 damage. i.e. as a light one handed, it lowers the off hand to hit penalty. If not the klar go with a light steel shield with spikes. alternately if you can get it from your D.M. ask for "Shield Knuckling". What is that? you take a normal light steel shield, reinforce it, brace it, balance it, and give it "KNUCKLES" to deal extra blunt damage. like shield spikes, but Blunt damage. This can give you a d6 blunt with your shield as well! I made this "shield Knuckling" part up myself and I am surprised that Paizo hasn't snatched it up. of course there is also my exotic weapon the "Comet-fist" which is a blunt damage version of the Klar.
if you have to stay with printed material, you can get a "SHEILD BOSS" that will increase your shield's hit points (making it harder to sunder or ruin) useful because it is a cheap option that has "optional extras". Where can you find info on shield bosses?
Here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-boss
Scimitar, because we like crits - nuff sed!
Short bow - getting into a fight face to face is *NOT* always the smartest thing to do. Sometimes it pays to whittle down the enemy from afar...
Armor:
Chain Shirt - its light, gives you a +4 ac, and only has a -2 skill check penalty. when you are higher levels, elven chain may be your money maker.
I prefer using the guide archetype. why? I'd rather benefit my team than be saddled with a critter. the "Ranger's focus" is a quick +2 in a fight when you NEED it, and it gets better as you level and gains additional uses per day. at 4th level "Terrain bond" allows you to use your favored environments to provide a small buff your team, you will gain additional terrains and improve this ability.
at 9th level "Ranger's luck- why? cause re-roll!
at 11th Inspired moment!
Why use the ranger? because with the ranger you can have;
1st level - two weapon fighting, improved shield bash
(bashing at this level is a penalty to hit, so stick to your main. although I find sometimes that having two dice rolls is better than one)
if you are in Society play, use the income from your first adventure or two to get master work weapon and shield asap!
2nd level - Shield slam. (now you have the option of a free non provoking bull rush COMBINED with every shield bash! this can be great if you are guarding another as every time a foe closes in, you send them reeling.
3rd level - take weapon focus (weapon). with a build like this you want to remove any penalties to hit and damage at the first chance you get.
the trait "Shield bearer" is awesome in that when you bash, you get a +1 trait damage and may once a day give an ally a +2 shield AC...
kind of having a one use of "Saving shield" feat and double slice feat, for Free!
you also get the endurance feat this level... helpful at surviving Non-lethal damage.
5th level - grab weapon focus (shield).
6th level - shield mastery, no more Two weapon penalties with weapon and shield! it is suddenly getting a +2/+2 to hit! here you could maybe upgrade to a heavy steel shield possibly +1, bashing.
7th level - take double slice now as you may be getting your hands on a high enough strength score that the Off-hand damage penalty will actually affect you.
9th level - take shield focus for the +1 ac.
10th level - grab "Bashing finish" because its like a free attack every time you crit.
1th level - take greater shield focus for even more AC or what-ever.
others might want you to pursue toughness, or Saving throws. options are fine, pursue them if you need to. I would consider strongly pursuing Feats like:
"Covering shield" to help you make saves against Area of effect attacks.
"Missile Shield" to defeat a ranged attack.
Now, "RAY SHIELD" sounds three flavors of awesome, but requires the "Spell breaker" feat, which requires 10th level fighter, and 6th level fighter feat "Disruptive"...
All I can say is, if you are going to go with a fighter class for some 10 levels, you may as well buy up two weapon fighting and shield feats that way, but the two weapon penalty will be hanging around your neck for all 10 of those levels.
Peace out!
Sources:
Ranger class
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger#TOC-Archetypes-Alternat e-Class-Features
Guide archetype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---rang er-archetypes/guide
Shield bearer trait
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/shield-bearer
Shield Trained trait
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/shield-trained
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yeah, I thought about it.
traits: Shield bearer, shield trained.
Ranger - guide archetype
in terms of feats make the following changes to my list above.
3rd shield focus (+1 ac)
5th missile shield or covering shield
6th shield mastery
7th improved two weapon fighting
9th the remaining (either missile shield or covering shield)
10th bashing finish.
I don't bother with spiked destroyer as you end up bashing a foe, and then using armor spikes... this doesn't make sense in my mind's eye, especially if you successfully bull rushed via that shield bash- it's like you bash them away - but then run after them trying to leg-hump!
I don't bother with vicious stomp and enforcer as it requires other stuff that takes away from the ranger's "Style". "Keep your feat on the Ground!"
I don't do the abberant blood ragger, as to me it sounds like a character I would attack and feel justified in doing so...
Seriously, how can you role play with something like a hentai-tentacle fest or some one with a 5 charisma - they'd be revolting, terrifying, and I would tend to see that "Im uh Monstur" neon sign over their heads.
I thought the general consensus was that Shield Master negated the TWF penalties only for the shield itself, not whatever other weapon you might be using (except maybe another shield). The +2 bonus to hit with the shield is still nice though, and getting your shield's shield enhancement as a bonus to attacks and damage could be great if you're generally able to buy or craft whatever you want (my 10th level hammer and shield Viking is stuck with a +2 shield maximum for now and therefore finds Shield Master slightly less interesting for his 11th level feat)
Shield bearer really isn't necessary at all. Unless you somehow wanted to build around dex and want to finesse your heavy shield...
You can always get away with using the shield as your main weapon and using a short blade as your off hand weapon.
For builds that would like to two hand their shield it is actually disadvantageous as you can't two hand a light weapon.
I don't do the abberant blood ragger, as to me it sounds like a character I would attack and feel justified in doing so...
Seriously, how can you role play with something like a hentai-tentacle fest or some one with a 5 charisma - they'd be revolting, terrifying, and I would tend to see that "Im uh Monstur" neon sign over their heads.
Aberrant doesn't have to mean any more than you are a stretchy guy. Lots of those are heroes: Mister Fantastic, Plastic Man, Luffy, etc..
And as a bloodrager, your Charisma will be at least around 14, so you can be downright charming.
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I thought the general consensus was that Shield Master negated the TWF penalties only for the shield itself, not whatever other weapon you might be using (except maybe another shield). The +2 bonus to hit with the shield is still nice though, and getting your shield's shield enhancement as a bonus to attacks and damage could be great if you're generally able to buy or craft whatever you want
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat---final
You are correct. I had slightly erred here. It is good to point out that one no longer has to go the route of paying to enchant their shield for protection, and then enchant it to hit...Seeing as how some place a cap on magical enhancement, or prohibit matching bonuses from stacking; the idea of a +10 to hit +5 damage shield with "Bashing" enchanted shield spikes (*also something that may be disavowed as one can argue the bashing enchantment is for Shields, not spikes - otherwise, get it on a great sword Pronto! what would that be, 3d8 damage?) a bit ludicrously expensive and a munchkiny stretch of the rules.
Shield bearer really isn't necessary at all. Unless you somehow wanted to build around dex and want to finesse your heavy shield...
You can always get away with using the shield as your main weapon and using a short blade as your off hand weapon.
For builds that would like to two hand their shield it is actually disadvantageous as you can't two hand a light weapon.
Actually, the trait is "Shield Trained" and while two weapon fighting reduces the penalty by 6 from -10 to -4. using a light weapon in your off hand lowers this by 2. no need for finesse, with a build like this: armor, weapon, shield, equipment, you are going to need about 14-15 strength and still be a medium load. at 16 strength you might be at a light load, if not you may need some magical carrying widget.
Trait: Shield bearer gives you a +1 damage with your shield bashing, which is a good thing. if you start with a 15 strength, the 1/2 strength damage for the shield bashing is technically non existent.
Again, this is assuming that the OP wants to use the shield proficiency feat tree and two weapon fighting as it is written.
Two handing a shield, is doable, but is not the focus of the Two weapon fighting feat tree.
So I hear you want to specialize on shield slam.
Let me tell you about some REALLY useful feats:
Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Merciless Rush, Squash Flat and Rhino Charge.
These should help you.
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So I hear you want to specialize on shield slam.
Let me tell you about some REALLY useful feats:
Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Merciless Rush, Squash Flat and Rhino Charge.
These should help you.
Let me imagine this scene.
"You smash into your foe with your shield, forcing them back and opening them up to be shredded by your armor spikes and eventually trampled"...This in my mind's eye is a workable option for a non ranger/slayer build; please note the requirements for this set of feats:
1. Power attack, which is great in and of itself.
2. and must be a worshiper of an EVIL DEITY.
...which may not be so great if your not evil.
the ranger build I gave above doesn't really have room for all these additional feats. It would likely require multi-classing or abandoning features from my suggestion.
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So I hear you want to specialize on shield slam.
Let me tell you about some REALLY useful feats:
Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Merciless Rush, Squash Flat and Rhino Charge.
These should help you.This in my mind's eye is a workable option for a non ranger/slayer build; please note the requirements for this set of feats:
1. Power attack, which is great in and of itself.
2. and must be a worshiper of an EVIL DEITY....which may not be so great if your not evil.
Not just any evil deity, but Rovagug, the most hated deity in all of Golarion. You know, the guy that made Asmodeus, Sarenrae, and all the other good and evil gods team up to stop him from destroying the entire universe?
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so, if your playing Pathfinder society, and have a 20 point build limit:
consider: Human, ranger-guide, Weapon and shield combat style, traits: Shield trained and Shield bearer. with the racial bonus skill rank, you can apply your Favored class bonus to hit points. The bonus feat allows you to get the two weapon fighting and shield bashing Feat trees started at first level.
Strength 15 cost 7 points
Dexterity 13 Cost 3 points
Constitution 13 cost 3 points
intelligence 12 cost 2 points
Wisdom 14 cost 5 points
Charisma 10 Cost 0 points.
________________total: 20 points_____________
Now, you can apply your racial +2 bonus as you desire:
Strength bumped to 17 or
Dexterity Bumped to 15 or
Constitution bumped to 15 or, etc.
Racial skill rank and 12 intelligence means you have 8 skill ranks to spend, Example:
1. Climbing, : +6
2. Healing, : +6
3. Know-nature:+5
4. perception,:+6
5. ride: ______+5
6. stealth:___:+5
7. survival:__:+6
8. Swimming:__:+6
Armor: Chain shirt
Shield: Heavy steel shield (used to bash, only a -2 on your normal Bab+ strength +modifiers)
Weapon: Scimitar (fighting with two weapons gives you a penalty, but you have two dice rolls.)
Note: armor skill check penalty is -4 total.
non magical enhancements: Master work quality for each, and a shield Boss... check those options out. They will give you +1/+1 bonus to hit and reduce your total Skill check penalty to -2 total.
Much more expensive: Mithral equipment. Suddenly, No Skill check penalty what-so-ever. with the max dex bonus of +6 I would encourage a magic item to boost your dexterity.
if at 3rd level you take shield focus, you can follow up with "Missile shield" and "covering shield" feats. which can help you stay alive.
You can fight, Defend, Track, survive, Sneak with the rogue, with the heal skill and minor spell casting you can add some support to the group.
it is a well rounded concept with lots of options open for you to consider.
So I hear you want to specialize on shield slam.
Let me tell you about some REALLY useful feats:
Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Merciless Rush, Squash Flat and Rhino Charge.
These should help you.Let me imagine this scene.
"You smash into your foe with your shield, forcing them back and opening them up to be shredded by your armor spikes and eventually trampled"...This in my mind's eye is a workable option for a non ranger/slayer build; please note the requirements for this set of feats:
1. Power attack, which is great in and of itself.
2. and must be a worshiper of an EVIL DEITY....which may not be so great if your not evil.
the ranger build I gave above doesn't really have room for all these additional feats. It would likely require multi-classing or abandoning features from my suggestion.
My reply was meant to be an advise for the author not improvement for your build.
My point - these feats make a really cool and effective character.Fighter (maybe viking archetype) or Barbarian would definitely work the best with these feats (or juicy anti-paladin).
As to worshiping Rovagug, I see nothing wrong with CN barbarian worshiping Rovagug as source of his rage and power for destruction to come.
Alternatively quite a few GMs would let to take these feats to anyone. Also not every pathfinder game is run in Golarion universe.