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When the spell ends with an enemy trapped inside it, what happens to the enemy?
I see this question pop up often enough that I think it's something that should be answered in the FAQ. Logically, this could be a 2-spell instant win combo, or it might be completely useless depending on how the GM rules it. But for the sake of PFS and others, it's something that should be addressed.
It was answered a while ago, the opening of the pit moves to the object that is placed over top.
Ie, create pit, cast wall of stone over it, the opening to create pit is now on the wall of stone
Where was this answered, and by whom? Because I'm pretty certain it wasn't answered in the FAQ, or if so, I can't find it.
I would also like to know where it was answered.
People will still want an official answer, but I would have done something like that for my own games anyway so I will go with that.
edit: I pressed the FAQ button.
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As a GM needing to deal with this situation and not wanting everyone in the pit to be instantly crushed to death, just go with the most literal result possible.
"creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round."
Being crushed will leave you unable to stand on the surface, so you can't be crushed, as per the rules for the spell.
I agree that this is asked frequently. And it's almost always brought up in games where I've seen this spell used.
I don't see how there is any question. Create pit is a magical extra-dimensional effect from a flat horizontal surface. If you alter where the surface is, you will alter where the pit it.
So if I put a solid board across the top of the pit so I can walk across it, it doesn't work, because the pit then becomes part of the board?
Does it have to cover the entire pit to do that, or would blocking half of it have the same issue?
What if you put something that isn't flat on top of it? Does that create the desired trap?
Ooooh, I hate pit spells. I really hate them.
Players always think these spells are the I Win button for Pathfinder. And sometimes they are. Use them to crawl under walls, trap monsters and kill them with bombs/grenades, and even try to crush them like the OP's question.
They take more time to figure out than just blasting with a fireball or dropping a wall of fire on the battlefield.
Worst of all is all the arguments and debates that come up every time a player thinks he should be able circumvent half the dungeon or destroy every encounter with a simple 2nd level spell.
I have wasted more time and energy dealing with these spells than any other spell or spell line, including Wish.
I really hate them.
Solution: Remember what the level of the spell is, remember that they only do what they say they do and nothing more, remember that extra-dimensional does NOT mean you can use it to drop down to a lower floor of a dungeon or castle, nor can you use it to sink a ship, etc. And mainly stop trying to weasel this spell into doing more than a spell of its level should be able to do.
To DM_Blake,
I'm sorry for your frustration, but I have to wonder why the players can't understand it's not a transportation/doorway spell.
Even when you explain to them that the other end opens in another dimension (and not through a floor, boat, etc) they are still adamant?
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So if I put a solid board across the top of the pit so I can walk across it, it doesn't work, because the pit then becomes part of the board?
Does it have to cover the entire pit to do that, or would blocking half of it have the same issue?
What if you put something that isn't flat on top of it? Does that create the desired trap?
If I were the GM, I'd allow someone to cross the pit on a board, but if there was anything in the pit and under the board when the spell ended, it/they'd rise up through the board and end up standing on top of it, unharmed. Because magic. Imagine it as a wobbly extra-dimensional elevator.
If you want to make a pit into a trap, do it the old fashioned way and throw alchemist's fire or acid bottles into it. A wall of fire would also work, as would making a relatively small wall of stone and then pushing it over so that it falls down the pit on top of your victims.
EDIT: I already know how I'd rule it, but I hit the FAQ button anyway; couldn't hurt to get an official ruling.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Even when you explain to them that the other end opens in another dimension (and not through a floor, boat, etc) they are still adamant?
I imagine the line of thinking is "I center this under the door. So now I have 5 ft I can crawl into the extra dimensional space and 5 ft to climb out on the other side of the door".
I'd respond, "you know the spell won't work because the surface isn't a surface. It has a door in the middle."
Ah, it was james jacobs who said how it should work,
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qtom?Pit-spell-A-shrink-wall-and-dispel-pit#26
That is pretty reasonable
Based on this, all you need do is cast Create Pit on a movable flat surface (like a 10x10 board) and then tilt it up against a wall - boom, instantly walk through any wall! Stuck in Orv? Place the board up against the ceiling, and the opening will snap up to the surface!
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I don't see how there is any question. Create pit is a magical extra-dimensional effect from a flat horizontal surface. If you alter where the surface is, you will alter where the pit it.
Where is the precedent for this in the game? Because this isn't a logical conclusion. Altering the area of a spell after it was cast has never changed how a spell worked before in the past.
The *best* answer I've ever seen, and the one most likely to be chosen by the FAQ team (in my opinion), is to use the teleport 'shunting' rules. You get shunted to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage for ever X amount of feet traveled.
Not really. Even with that interpretation, the pit is not a door. It opens into an extra dimensional space, not the other side of the wall, etcetera.Based on this, all you need do is cast Create Pit on a movable flat surface (like a 10x10 board) and then tilt it up against a wall - boom, instantly walk through any wall! Stuck in Orv? Place the board up against the ceiling, and the opening will snap up to the surface!Ah, it was james jacobs who said how it should work,
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qtom?Pit-spell-A-shrink-wall-and-dispel-pit#26
That is pretty reasonable
You missed my point. If you cast it on the 10x10 board, and then place the board up against the wall, you have an extradimensional space in the board. When that spell ends, anybody inside that space will wind up between the board and the wall - except that, by JJ's reasoning, they would actually pass through the wall and wind up on the other side of it. I'm not saying the extradimensional space punches through the wall, I'm saying the new "surface" would be the wall rather than the board.
I'm not saying the extradimensional space punches through the wall, I'm saying the new "surface" would be the wall rather than the board.
I'd say the effect would invert and the opening to the pit would be on the side of the board facing away from the wall, because that's the closest available space. Unless your board is thicker than the wall, which seems unlikely.
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You missed my point. If you cast it on the 10x10 board, and then place the board up against the wall, you have an extradimensional space in the board. When that spell ends, anybody inside that space will wind up between the board and the wall - except that, by JJ's reasoning, they would actually pass through the wall and wind up on the other side of it. I'm not saying the extradimensional space punches through the wall, I'm saying the new "surface" would be the wall rather than the board.Not really. Even with that interpretation, the pit is not a door. It opens into an extra dimensional space, not the other side of the wall, etcetera.Based on this, all you need do is cast Create Pit on a movable flat surface (like a 10x10 board) and then tilt it up against a wall - boom, instantly walk through any wall! Stuck in Orv? Place the board up against the ceiling, and the opening will snap up to the surface!Ah, it was james jacobs who said how it should work,
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qtom?Pit-spell-A-shrink-wall-and-dispel-pit#26
That is pretty reasonable
But by this exact same interpretation, if you cast it on a board, if you pick up the board the board comes away clean and the pit remains on the surface below it.
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I agree with ryric's interpretation if the board were laying down when the spell was cast on it, but if the board were being held up during the casting time, I think the pit could travel with it, as per the spell's clause referencing a ship's deck, which can clearly move and even become vertical. The surface only has to be horizontal at the time of the casting, by my reading.
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You missed my point. If you cast it on the 10x10 board, and then place the board up against the wall, you have an extradimensional space in the board. When that spell ends, anybody inside that space will wind up between the board and the wall - except that, by JJ's reasoning, they would actually pass through the wall and wind up on the other side of it. I'm not saying the extradimensional space punches through the wall, I'm saying the new "surface" would be the wall rather than the board.Not really. Even with that interpretation, the pit is not a door. It opens into an extra dimensional space, not the other side of the wall, etcetera.Based on this, all you need do is cast Create Pit on a movable flat surface (like a 10x10 board) and then tilt it up against a wall - boom, instantly walk through any wall! Stuck in Orv? Place the board up against the ceiling, and the opening will snap up to the surface!Ah, it was james jacobs who said how it should work,
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qtom?Pit-spell-A-shrink-wall-and-dispel-pit#26
That is pretty reasonable
You are disregarding this little piece of the spell:
You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size.The pit stay on the horizontal surface, so you move your board, it stay on the horizontal surface below it. You can't move the pit.
I agree with ryric's interpretation if the board were laying down when the spell was cast on it, but if the board were being held up during the casting time, I think the pit could travel with it, as per the spell's clause referencing a ship's deck, which can clearly move and even become vertical. The surface only has to be horizontal at the time of the casting, by my reading.
You should always remember that we are operating with a perceptive reference system, not with a external frame of reference.
From the perceptive point of view a ship is a single "universe" where everything stay in the same position even if the ship move, so you can cast a spell that reference the ship universe and have it stay on the same spot on the ship.If you are outside that universe you see the spell area move, but it stay in the same position within the operational frame of reference.
That is what allow you to cast a spell that stay fixed in space on the surface of a planet and not have it zip away at ungodly speed as the planet spin on his axis.
If you play with changing your frame of reference you start creating problems<.
You missed my point. If you cast it on the 10x10 board, and then place the board up against the wall, you have an extradimensional space in the board. When that spell ends, anybody inside that space will wind up between the board and the wall - except that, by JJ's reasoning, they would actually pass through the wall and wind up on the other side of it. I'm not saying the extradimensional space punches through the wall, I'm saying the new "surface" would be the wall rather than the board.Not really. Even with that interpretation, the pit is not a door. It opens into an extra dimensional space, not the other side of the wall, etcetera.Based on this, all you need do is cast Create Pit on a movable flat surface (like a 10x10 board) and then tilt it up against a wall - boom, instantly walk through any wall! Stuck in Orv? Place the board up against the ceiling, and the opening will snap up to the surface!Ah, it was james jacobs who said how it should work,
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qtom?Pit-spell-A-shrink-wall-and-dispel-pit#26
That is pretty reasonableYou are disregarding this little piece of the spell:
You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size.
The pit stay on the horizontal surface, so you move your board, it stay on the horizontal surface below it. You can't move the pit.I agree with ryric's interpretation if the board were laying down when the spell was cast on it, but if the board were being held up during the casting time, I think the pit could travel with it, as per the spell's clause referencing a ship's deck, which can clearly move and even become vertical. The surface only has to be horizontal at the time of the casting, by my reading.You should always remember that we are operating with a perceptive...
Aren't you contradicting yourself? If two people hold a board horizontally, and a third casts create pit on it, that is your "universe" - moving the board wouldn't make it jump to the floor any more than moving a ship would make it jump to the sea floor.
For those who think that it should simply 'move up' to the next surface, keep in mind how that can be used. You say say that if one were to cover the spell with something like a wall of stone, the pit's entrance would rise to the new surface. Logically, then, you've just created the earliest teleportation spell in the game.
For example, if you were in a dungeon, and needed to get out quickly, you could cast create pit and then cause a cave-in. By the rules you're advocating, create pit would then rise up to the surface. So now we've got a spell that not only automatically alters the area of it's effect based off malleable terrain, but now you have a method of forcing it to be... well, walked down a tunnel as well?
Allowing the spell to shift it's opening is not a good answer. There is no precedent for it in the current game (nor in previous ones to my knowledge).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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you've just created the earliest teleportation spell in the game.
Allowing the spell to shift it's opening is not a good answer.
You will be fine if you thing of the spell level and apply appropriate behaviour. If moving it up is beneficial to the party, reverse the move when they attempt to benefit from the move.
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For example, if you were in a dungeon, and needed to get out quickly, you could cast create pit and then cause a cave-in. By the rules you're advocating, create pit would then rise up to the surface.
Not a great form of teleportion.
You've got to create a pit, get in the pit, and then somehow create a cave-in that leaves no gaps between you and the outside world that could count as an alternative surface for the pit to form on.
Also, the cave-in must not be the sort that causes hundreds of medium sized rocks to fall into the pit you're standing in and crush you to death.
Then, if that works, you have to wait for the spell to end and you are then teleported to one specific place, vertically above you.
It wouldn't exactly make Dimension Door obsolete.
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You say say that if one were to cover the spell with something like a wall of stone, the pit's entrance would rise to the new surface.
As it was pointed out in older threads, where are you anchoring that wall of stone?
The pit side? No it is a extraplanar hole, not true stone.The slope around the pit? No again, it is again part of the extraplanar hole.
So you must cover a 20'x20' and anchor your wall outside it. If you have the level to cover that area you have access to way better spells. (to cover a 20'x20' you need 32 caster levels as you need to "arch and buttress" your wall, halving the area).
And that, BTW, point out one of the flaw of the spell.
What is the " horizontal surface of sufficient size" that it need? 10'x10' or the whole area of the effect, i.e. 10'x10'+the 5' of slope?
Another thing it don't address is if you can cast it where there is a a item solidly joined with the horizontal surface but smaller than the area of the pit, like a tree with a trunk smaller than 5' or the mast of a ship.
It is instantly cut? Displaced to another dimension for the duration of the spell, like the horizontal surface in that area?
It is one of those spells that require a lot of GM adjudication, so James Risner interpretation is the best: keep in mind the spell level.
If I was the GM and someone cast create pit on an 11 x 11 horizontal slab of some thickness, then tried to tilt that slab up, I'd rule that the as the slab increases its angle from the horizontal, the opening narrows until, when the slab is completely vertical, the pit is inaccessible. If the spell were to end at that time, whatever was in the pit would find themselves balanced on the top edge of the now-vertical slab.