*This aspect of the build is deeply despised by several contributors to this forum, and you shouldn't be surprised if somebody tries to say it's illegal.
They say that the Bashing Enchantment will not stack with Spiked Shields on the grounds that both of them are virtual size increases and therefore do not stack. They aren't crazy for thinking so, but as best as I can tell, the latest official word on the matter is that they do.
Meanwhile, that rule does not apply to the Klar.
But if your GM is adamantly against you, at level 8 you just take a level in Warpriest, make the Klar your sacred weapon, and get your 1d6 that way. The Bashing virtual size increase still stack with the Sacred Weapon Damage, because the Class Description specifically calls for larger Sacred Weapons doing more damage.
I will offer a synopsis of the fire-hardened argument that makes it plain the the character build I just offered does indeed do damage in exactly the way that I say. If it is called for: it would constitute a significant tangent from the topic of this thread.
claudekennilol wrote: I'm curious if you looked at the build I posted further up thread (LINK again). Any thoughts you've got on/about it? It looks pretty cool. I have a couple of comments. It looks like your attack of opportunity triggers don't really kick in until level 7 or 8 or so. If you take things at different levels, you could start racking up AoOs sooner.
I saw 2 AoO triggers: Outflank and Broken Wing Gambit. Outflank triggers when you score crits, so it really benefits when you get Improved Crit, which can't happen before level 8. If you take Broken Wing Gambit early and then Outflank late, then you will get AoO's faster sooner.
I didn't see you specify the weapon this character uses. I recommend a weapon with a high threat range like rapier. Then after you get Improved Crit and Crit Focus, get some of those Crit Mastery Feats that trigger some other really nasty effect like Bleeding Critical. One variation you offered for your build is a Small size cavalier. Halfling is a very good choice for this. Halflings have special feats like Low Blow that increase the chances of Crit Confirmation. And they even have that Opportunist Prestige Class. Very close to 30% of all your hits will be Crits.
Halflings don't do a lot of damage with their small weapons. This will be offset by a focus on debuffing Crit Mastery Feats. But you are working in a lot of Flanking into your build, so maybe dip into some classes that give you Sneak Attack Damage? Sneak Attack Damage does not scale down with size. A level in Ninja, a level in Brawler with the Snakebite Striker Archetype, and a level in Alchemist with the Vivisectionist Archetype, and you will have a Sneak Attack of +3d6. I'd be tempted to work in something like Sap Adept and Sap Master to up the Sneak Attack Damage, but that won't work with a Rapier.
Hunter gets Outflank as a specific bonus feat (that or Precise Shot,) and so can't move it to later in the build. I'm not sure you'd want to though, since the extra +2 to hit basically all the time is the big sell. You can also get a Keen weapon pretty early.
Outflank comes for free as a second level hunter. But yeah, that in combination with a keen scimitar (and pack flanking) generates most of the early(ish) AoOs. I'm surprised I didn't mention the weapon in there anywhere (looking back with ctrl+f I see "scimitar" is mentioned five times and "keen" twice--but it's a lot of text so it's easy to see why it was missed).
To pick up those classes for that build I'd have to drop levels of monk/fighter. The main point of the build is a fully-leveled animal companion with zounds of teamwork feats.
There's not really any spare room for feats for sapping. To make use of that while still staying in the essence of this character I'd need Weapon Focus and Weapon Versatility (in addition to Sap Adept and Sap Master) (to still use a high crit-threat weapon). That's four feats that don't fit with the whole plan in addition to three classes that don't grant extra feats or have animal companion progression.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Tsutsuku,
I really appreciate that you are giving credit to the people contributing ideas to your guide. If you keep that up, I feel comfortable with your incorporating my ideas and builds into this project. In fact, I'd write up something special, an article or something, for you if you gave me a byline.
I'd be honored. Although I haven't been keeping up this thread quite as much this past week due to some RL chaos, I intend to keep updating it as long as there are updates to make :)
Lord Phrofet wrote: Yeah building a ripost/parry based swashbuckler and was looking for a few more AoOs a round. Figured the "guide to AoOs" would be the place to look! Barbarians can get the Quick Reactions rage power that grants them one extra AoO.
Tsutsuku wrote: Paired Opportunists - most of the following triggers only provide an AoO for some members of your team, rather than all. Paired Opportunists is the master feat that lets everyone who has it participate in the gang-up fun.... Bodyguard - falls under the “ask your DM” category. It does technically use an AoO to trigger but the actual action used is “aid another”. I personally wouldn’t allow it but if your DM is lenient then by all means abuse the $&*! out of this. Of course any GM running his own campaign can make any ruling he wants, but in terms of the literal meaning of the rules and for Pathfinder Society, I don't think combining Bodyguard and Paired Opportunist is problematic at all. Just because the triggered Attack of Opportunity can only be be made to Aid Another, that doesn't mean that it's not an Attack of Opportunity, and therefore does not trigger other Attacks of Opportunity from your allies.
With Paired Opportunist, if one of your allies get an Attack of Opportunity, so do you.
Paired Opportunist wrote: Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you The thing that Bodyguard triggers is an attack of opportunity.
Bodyguard wrote: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity Even though you can't make a good attack, just aid another, it's still an attack of opportunity. Just as much as Snake Fang and Vicious Stomp only allow unarmed attacks of opportunity and Improved Combat Throw only allows a Tripping attacks of opportunity, Bodyguard only allows Aid Another attacks of opportunity.
I was envisioning a character with Bodyguard, Paired Opportunist, and Snake Fang. If somebody attacks him and misses, everybody gets an attack of opportunity. If somebody attacks any body else, then everybody still gets an attack of opportunity.
Now I am envisioning twins, both with Snake Fang and Bodyguard, and either both with Paired Opportunist or maybe 1 with Paired Opportunist and Tactician. So if anybody attacks either then the other one gets an Aid Another AoO due to Bodyguard; the one that is attacked gets an AoO because his twin got one. If the attack misses, then Snake Fang Triggers an AoO from the one that attacks, and Paired Opportunist triggers 1 from his twin! Maybe the other twin gets Broken Wing Gambit and Tactician, so if the badguys take the +2 attack and damage, that also triggers Attacks of Opportunity from both of them. Snake Fang only triggers on a miss, but the Aid Another to AC will offset BWG's attack bonus. 5 AoOs/round: that's pretty sick.
Tsutsuku wrote: Snake Fang - the third style to choose from, requires you to use an unarmed strike to make your AoO and, depending on how you interpret it, can also grant two AoOs to all of your friends. Ask your DM. I love Snake Fang, but it's not quite that good. If I understand what you are getting at correctly, that second attack is not an attack of opportunity: it's an Immediate Action. That's not the same thing.
Snake Fang wrote: Benefit: While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent’s attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent.
I agree with Scott. You have a very loose definition of "provoking an attack of opportunity" (see previous comments about Fortuitous (not trying to be a jerk..)). Provoking is what happens that allows you to take an AoO. Just because you take an AoO doesn't mean someone is provoking. So you get to take an AoO when someone provokes, there are also other things that allow you to take AoOs, but that doesn't turn those other things into "npc provokes". It's one of those things where all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
I recommend you add the Trait Bullied. Like Fencer, it grants a +1 on attacks of opportunity, but for unarmed strikes. It can be found in the Advanced Players' Guide.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Even though you can't make a good attack, just aid another, it's still an attack of opportunity. Just as much as Snake Fang and Vicious Stomp only allow unarmed attacks of opportunity and Improved Combat Throw only allows a Tripping attacks of opportunity, Bodyguard only allows Aid Another attacks of opportunity. The problems I have with it as a DM are twofold. The first and most important is that Aid Another is not an attack action, ESPECIALLY if it can only be used to add an AC bonus. My interpretation of the rules is basically that if you get a chance to attack an opponent when you normally shouldn't be able to, that constitutes an attack of opportunity. That's what makes sense to me. Getting a free attack because you helped your ally dodge an attack doesn't.
Second, I think that allowing Bodyguard on Paired Opportunists is brokenly overpowered. I don't usually have a problem with brokenly overpowered things as long as they follow RAW, or even if they make sense, but with the combination, I can't really condone them.
Again though, this is my personal opinion as is reflected in my guide, some DMs might choose to allow it but I am not one of them. :)
It's not actually that broken. Sadly, in Pathfinder Society, I find it's all too rare that other players are willing to coordinate to such a degree that they will form up on you even to get those attacks of opportunity, and even when they do, they often don't take Combat Reflexes and don't usually get more than 1/round
A homepinning DM sets the power level of the campaign. He can do any of all kinds of things to make the camapaign challenging for the party. At the very least, he can respond with AoO twins of his own. There is another problem, though. Most monsters have a DPR that scales up proportionally with hit points, and if the DM brings monsters with enough hit points to survive a few rounds of full attacks from characters like these, then the the table might find out that the characters don't have enough hit points to last 1 round against the monsters, and the characters become glass cannons, which nobody wants. I've had a few of those. It's important to work in a few awesome defenses to go with your AoO builds, and to talk about the weaknesses of any given build you have.
Exploiting Paired Opportunist requires close-packed formations, what old-school gamers call Fireball Formation. Do you need to be told why?
Tsutsuku wrote: Again though, this is my personal opinion as is reflected in my guide, some DMs might choose to allow it but I am not one of them. :) So who is your intended audience for your guide? The answer to that question is important for deciding how to handle conflicting opinions and ideas.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: So who is your intended audience for your guide? The answer to that question is important for deciding how to handle conflicting opinions and ideas. ...? My intended audience is everyone who would want to use/abuse attacks of opportunity. My solution for handling conflicting views is to state my viewpoint and the other viewpoint. I don't understand why you're so worked up about it.
Tsutsuku wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: So who is your intended audience for your guide? The answer to that question is important for deciding how to handle conflicting opinions and ideas. ...? My intended audience is everyone who would want to use/abuse attacks of opportunity. My solution for handling conflicting views is to state my viewpoint and the other viewpoint. I don't understand why you're so worked up about it. I think that's just the thing for your stated audience.
I'm so sorry. But I'm not worked up. I'm much worse than this when I am worked up.
Tsutsuku wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: So who is your intended audience for your guide? The answer to that question is important for deciding how to handle conflicting opinions and ideas. ...? My intended audience is everyone who would want to use/abuse attacks of opportunity. My solution for handling conflicting views is to state my viewpoint and the other viewpoint. I don't understand why you're so worked up about it. I think he's so "worked up" about it because your view of an attack of opportunity is not what's in line with the book. Attacks of opportunity are clearly defined. You're tacking on extra stuff just because it's not clearly "when you're normally supposed to be able to make an attack". Well it's also clearly not an Attack of Opportunity. It's neither. But you're saying that because it isn't the first it must be the second which isn't the case.
claudekennilol wrote: Tsutsuku wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: So who is your intended audience for your guide? The answer to that question is important for deciding how to handle conflicting opinions and ideas. ...? My intended audience is everyone who would want to use/abuse attacks of opportunity. My solution for handling conflicting views is to state my viewpoint and the other viewpoint. I don't understand why you're so worked up about it. I think he's so "worked up" about it because your view of an attack of opportunity is not what's in line with the book. Attacks of opportunity are clearly defined. You're tacking on extra stuff just because it's not clearly "when you're normally supposed to be able to make an attack". Well it's also clearly not an Attack of Opportunity. It's neither. But you're saying that because it isn't the first it must be the second which isn't the case. Close.
Actually, what I am saying is that Bodyguard is described in the rules unambiguously as an Attack of Opportunity trigger, and in my opinion, it is not necessary to further qualify it as a DM's discretion thing.
It is no more up to the discretion of the GM than to suppose that rolling lower than your opponent's Armor Class on an Attack Roll is a Miss.
I detailed a thorough argument-explanation on another thread. I don't think it's according-to-Hoyle to repost, so I am linking to it below.
Broken Wing Gambit + In Harm's Way
Once again, Tsutsuku, I apologize for coming across as pushy. I am excited about your project producing a good product, but it is your project. On the other hand, I think part of the reason why you started this thread is to get feedback, and this is mine.
But I am really appreciative about how open-minded and receptive you've been regarding feedback, and I truly don't intend to punish you for it.
There is a big issue with using a Bard in this build.
A bard can not use both Inspire Courage AND Battle Song of the Peoples Revolt at the same time. They would have to drop one to use the other. The earliest that a bard can use both at the same time is at lvl 10 with Virtuoso Performance (lvl 4 spell). However, at this point, there is an absolutely better choice of buffing with Symphony of the Elysian Heart. I would not pass up mass freedom of movement for the extra party AoOs.
Any thoughts on Combat Patrol?
Combat Patrol would be a good addition to an AoO guide. It increases your effective reach. It has the limitation that you pretty much have to remain static to use it. But in some situations and for some builds, that's not a problem.
The use of Bodyguard as an Attack of Opportunity Build is being debated on this thread.
Does Bodyguard Trigger Paired Opportunist? FAQ Request
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Close.
Actually, what I am saying is that Bodyguard is described in the rules unambiguously as an Attack of Opportunity trigger, and in my opinion, it is not necessary to further qualify it as a DM's discretion thing.
It is no more up to the discretion of the GM than to suppose that rolling lower than your opponent's Armor Class on an Attack Roll is a Miss.
Maybe its because I tend to run with perhaps an overly strict group, but as long as there's any room for debate over a subject I'm going to mention that.
Lab_Rat wrote: There is a big issue with using a Bard in this build.
A bard can not use both Inspire Courage AND Battle Song of the Peoples Revolt at the same time. They would have to drop one to use the other. The earliest that a bard can use both at the same time is at lvl 10 with Virtuoso Performance (lvl 4 spell). However, at this point, there is an absolutely better choice of buffing with Symphony of the Elysian Heart. I would not pass up mass freedom of movement for the extra party AoOs.
I'm not saying its necessarily the best choice for a full bard, I'm listing it as a possibility for people who are interested in these kinds of builds. You may have noticed that there are several other classes that I recommend as dips. If you want to play a straight up buff bard, you're probably better off looking at a guide for bards. :)
miscdebris wrote: Any thoughts on Combat Patrol? Added.
Tsutsuku wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Close.
Actually, what I am saying is that Bodyguard is described in the rules unambiguously as an Attack of Opportunity trigger, and in my opinion, it is not necessary to further qualify it as a DM's discretion thing.
It is no more up to the discretion of the GM than to suppose that rolling lower than your opponent's Armor Class on an Attack Roll is a Miss.
Maybe its because I tend to run with perhaps an overly strict group, but as long as there's any room for debate over a subject I'm going to mention that. You should. And you should give a thorough treatment of rules-based arguments on both sides.
I disagree with your characterization of Archon Style feats granting attacks of opportunity without provoking them. Reviewing the Attacks of Opportunity section of the Core Rulebook, "provoke" applies to all the ways in which one is allowed to make an attack of opportunity. There is no other way of getting an attack of opportunity without one being provoked.
The Archon Style feats do not have to use the word "provoke." The Core Rulebook uses the word provoke. For Archon Style feats to be an exception to the rules, they need to say that they are, and they don't. So they aren't. They only allow your allies to make attacks of opportunity when those attacks are provoked. There is no other way. Just like Greater Trip, Greater Bull Rush, and Snake Fang, all archon Diversion and Justice do is add to the list of things that provoke attacks of opportunity, not create some exotic new way of generating AoO's without provocation.
So if you have Paired Opportunist and Archon Diversion, you get an Attack of Opportunity when your Ally does.
And if you then get Archon Justice, you get an attack of opportunity for EVERY ONE of your allies that get attacks of opportunity. That's pretty sick.
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Tsutsuku wrote: I just finished making my first-ever guide. The topic is abusing attacks of opportunity. If you have any feedback/advice it would be much appreciated :) I just wanted to give back to the community a little bit after spending so much time poring over everyone else's guides and I felt like AoOs were a little-discussed subject that could benefit a lot of builds.
Attacks of Opportunity: The Redheaded Stepchild of Pathfinder.
A couple of notes:
1. Ring of tactical precision also increases all the bonuses that teamwork feats give out. Paired Opportunist +5 to hit.
2. The Karmic variant bloodline for the sorcerer (Destined variant) allows the caster to cause foes to provoke an attack of opportunity when a concentration check fails. So...does your GM allow purposefully failing the caster level check on that cantrip?
evilaustintom wrote: Tsutsuku wrote: I just finished making my first-ever guide. The topic is abusing attacks of opportunity. If you have any feedback/advice it would be much appreciated :) I just wanted to give back to the community a little bit after spending so much time poring over everyone else's guides and I felt like AoOs were a little-discussed subject that could benefit a lot of builds.
Attacks of Opportunity: The Redheaded Stepchild of Pathfinder.
A couple of notes:
1. Ring of tactical precision also increases all the bonuses that teamwork feats give out. Paired Opportunist +5 to hit.
2. The Karmic variant bloodline for the sorcerer (Destined variant) allows the caster to cause foes to provoke an attack of opportunity when a concentration check fails. So...does your GM allow purposefully failing the caster level check on that cantrip? Ooh! I forgot about the Karmic Sorcerer! Awesome! Thank you!
I recommend a section on creating a high HD homunculus improved familiar for getting some feats and HD on your familiar. This should make them worthwhile as a flanking buddy. At the very least he can hover around and feint twice a round dropping target dex and giving everyone an aoo.
Also, the figment familiar archetype makes the familiar something that is freely replaced daily and gives them some free evolution points; you can't stack it with the homunculus but it's worth a look.
I also recommend looking at the ratling as a good race. dex, int and for the most aoo's money can get you as well as swarming to pack as many people in as you can. Shift your army of allies into ratlings and the amount of people in range of a single target jumps tremendously.
Kensai magus can gain int to aoo eventually which is worth a mention.
I'm just rattling off ideas without thinking up full builds though, so maybe you left these off for a reason.
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