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If a character uses a Swift Action on his/her turn, can a second Swift action be readied through "Readying an Action"?
Background:
-Multiple swift actions can't be taken on a characters turn, but the readying an action section says the turn is over after preparing the action. The second swift action therefore comes after the original turn bypassing this restriction.
-Readying an action uses a standard action, but allows a character to prepare a standard, move, swift, or free action to be taken later. Does the readied action change the type of action being readied from its original form (i.e. its a readied action, not a swift action allowing it to bypass the 1 swift action / turn limit allowing potential for a 3rd swift on the users next turn?
-Can a character ready an action he/she isn't ready/able to do when preparing the action? (Can a PC ready a swift action after they have already used one this turn.) The penalty for not being able to take the action when the trigger occurs is clear, but can they even prepare something they can't be prepared to do "in the moment"?
Note: Brought this over from another thread to generate attention and responses as the last thread had multiple topics and poorly worded title for the conversation.
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A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
The key text insofar as the readying of a swift action is this: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."
The practical effect of readying a swift action is to use it as an immediate action, as you will be performing said action outside of y our normal turn.
The same consequences apply.
It takes the standard action of your turn to ready the swift action so that you can use it outside of your own turn later on. But it doesn't change the fact that it is a swift action -- it simply allows it to be used outside of your normal turn.
To answer a bit clearer, you can in the course of your actions, take a swift action, and then a standard action to ready a swift action, which would allow you to take that swift action after your turn is over, which would make it a immediate action. As a result, on your next turn, you would not be able to take a swift action (per the normal immediate/swift action rules).
The way I read this is the "reverse outside a turn" that you are talking about:
You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
So, to put it succinctly, a swift action outside your turn consumes the swift action for your next turn, regardless of whether it is a readied swift action or a "declared" immediate action.
FAQ'd, also interested in the outcome.
FAQ'd as well. I wasn't interested in this outcome at all until recently when a conflict appeared to arise over the nature of Ready and how it works.
Regarding your background points:
#1 Appears to be a work-around suggested by a few people now.
#2 I'm more partial to see it this way as we know specific rules can already change an action's Type (ex, Rapid Reload doesn't allow you to perform a Move action with a Free action, it changes the Move action of loading to a Free action). Plus if Readying a Swift counts as your Standard AND your Swift, then Readying a Standard must count as your Standard AND another Standard....which just gets messy.
#3 I'd assume so, but it would be a waste of a Standard since it would automatically fail. "When the enemy attacks me, I turn myself incorporeal." If I don't have the means to do so, then obviously the action is going to be wasted. But I believe a Player is free to have such delusions at the table. :p
To illustrate how we are picturing the Action Economy, I'll post the same exercise that I posted elsewhere. I'm curious as to how people will answer this.
Round 1
1a: A Paladin Readies an attack against an enemy and then moves partway toward that enemy. Which Action Types has the Paladin just made?
1b: The enemy then advances on the Paladin and triggers the Paladin's Readied Action. Which Action Type has the Paladin just made here when he attacks?
Round 2
2a: A Paladin Readies an action to self-heal with LoH once his Hpts drop below half and then moves partway toward his enemy. Which Action Types has the Paladin just made?
2b: The enemy beats the Paladin within an inch of his life, triggering the Paladin's Readied Action. Which Action Type has the Paladin just made here when he self-heals with LoH?
#2 I'm more partial to see it this way as we know specific rules can already change an action's Type (ex, Rapid Reload doesn't allow you to perform a Move action with a Free action, it changes the Move action of loading to a Free action). Plus if Readying a Swift counts as your Standard AND your Swift, then Readying a Standard must count as your Standard AND another Standard....which just gets messy.
Actually, the only reason that readying a swift counts as your standard and your next rounds swift is due to the 'immediate action consumes your swift action for the next round rule'.
No such rule exists for standard actions.
I would posit an alternative: If you do not use your swift action during your turn when you are performing a "ready swift" standard action, then I would say that you simply postpone your current round's swift action and then you can use next turn's swift action normally.
The answer I gave was given due to the premise that the current round's swift action had already been used, and they were readying a swift as well to be used once their turn is done.
So, if you do NOT use your swift and you ready it for use after your turn, normal action rules apply. Swift action doesn't change to immediate, it is just held until the readied condition comes into play.
If you DO use your swift action and then ready a swift, you can do so, but it changes to an immediate action and you cannot use a swift action next round per the immediate action rules.
Elbedor:
To answer your questions --
1a: A standard action to ready an attack, and a move action to close (if he doesn't get in range of his opponent or his opponent doesn't get close enough on his opponent's turn, he loses the attack).
1b: A readied attack action (from 1a).
2a: A standard action to ready a standard action (LOH) , and a move action
2b: a readied standard action (from 2a).
Raw support is the definitions of swift and immediate actions. But it's all over the place.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn.
You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).
Swift is used on your turn. An immediate action is used outside your turn and consumes the swift of your next turn.
So, essentially, a swift and immediate actions are only differentiated by when you use them and their restriction to only be used one time per round.
Note that using a swift during your normal turn does not prevent you from using an immediate after your normal turn is done (see my previous statements), but instead prevents the use of a swift on your next turn.
If the condition that you specify when you ready your swift action doesn't come to pass, then you simply lose the opportunity to use that specific immediate action -- and you regain the ability to use a swift on your next turn.
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Actually, the only reason that readying a swift counts as your standard and your next rounds swift is due to the 'immediate action consumes your swift action for the next round rule'.
No such rule exists for standard actions.
This assumes that the action you are Readying retains its original nature; a Readied Swift remains a Swift, a Readied Move remains a Move, and a Readied Standard remains a Standard.
But there are major problems with this assumption. If Readying a Swift uses up your Swift for the turn, then Readying a Move uses up your Move for the turn.
Do you see where this becomes an issue? You'd never be able to Move and then Ready to Move again all in the same turn, since Moving spends your Move action and Readying still counts as a Move while also costing you your Standard action.
Per the rules, you're not allowed a 2nd Move unless you exchange your Standard for it. But you don't have a Standard to exchange since you spent it on Readying. So you're limited to a single Move action which you've already used Moving. Which puts you in the exact same predicament you face when Readying a Swift action after performing a Swift action earlier in your turn.
So either Ready changes the Action Type to Standard or it doesn't and we run into all sorts of Action Economy problems.
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Parallel comparison of Action Economies below. Remember that a character is only allowed a single Standard, a single Move, and a single Swift on their turn. The only modification to this is they can give up their Standard to perform a 2nd Move. If they don't or can't exchange the Standard, then no 2nd Move is allowed.
#1 Swift (Swift action spent), Move (Move action spent), Readied Swift (Standard action spent, but action still counts as Swift so can't be done since Swift was already done this turn).
#2 Swift (Swift action spent), Move (Move action spent), Readied Move (Standard action spent, but action still counts as Move so can't be done since Move was already done this turn...and no Standard is available to exchange for a 2nd Move).
If you insist on #1, then you must also be insisting on #2 as they use the same interpretation of Ready. We all agree #2 is wrong. It is entirely possible to Move and then Ready to Move again. So #1 must be wrong also. However, the following involves no conflict...
#3 Swift (Swift action spent), Move (Move action spent), Readied Swift (Standard action spent).
#4 Swift (Swift action spent), Move (Move action spent), Readied Move (Standard action spent).
Readying an action counts as a standard action, it changes when you get to take an action but it definitely doesn't count as two actions or use up an action on your next turn. It doesn't do this for move or standard actions so why would it do that to swift actions? That doesn't make sense at all.
Swift is used on your turn. An immediate action is used outside your turn and consumes the swift of your next turn.So, essentially, a swift and immediate actions are only differentiated by when you use them and their restriction to only be used one time per round.
Just because an immediate action behaves like a swift action on your turn, doesn't mean that a swift action behaves like an immediate action outside your turn. It is a reasonable extrapolation, but it isn't RAW.
Personally, I would treat ready'd actions as still being on the previous turn, meaning that if you used up a swift you couldn't double your activations for a turn by readying an action on the condition that anyone else does anything(effectively keeping your initiative while getting two swifts). Since ready'd actions essentially allow you to to take part of your turn by delaying and then acting in response to something else, treating the activation as happening on your turn seems sane, since delaying doesn't let you bypass the 1 swift/immediate per turn cycle rules either.
In any case, I expect either your extrapolation or mine to be what the dev team actually go with.
I'm in the camp that by RAW you can take a second swift action in this manner, but I'm completely unsure if that's RAI. I've FAQ'd, as I'm interested in dev clarification.
Elbedor:
To answer your questions --
1a: A standard action to ready an attack, and a move action to close (if he doesn't get in range of his opponent or his opponent doesn't get close enough on his opponent's turn, he loses the attack).1b: A readied attack action (from 1a).
2a: A standard action to ready a standard action (LOH) , and a move action
2b: a readied standard action (from 2a).
Perhaps I was unclear, but your answers to 1b and 2b are not what I was asking. You are giving me the action, but I wanted to know what Action Economy is used to perform that action. Readied Attack Actions or Readied Standard Actions are both actions that require a Standard Action out of the Action Economy.
The Action Economy includes Full-Round, Standard, Move, Swift, Immediate, Free, and Not-an-action. So if you've spent your Standard to Ready a Move or a Swift and you've spent your Move to close, what are you spending when your Readied action activates? Some are insisting that Readying a Swift means spending your Swift. Others disagree.
I have a thought, but I'd like to hear others' first.
Applying what we all know about the intent of swift actions, I suggest we all treat Ready as allowing for a swift action, but not GRANTING a swift action.
You only get one swift action per turn, so no, no second swift actions.
What I would like to see is an FAQ on Ready, not just in regards to swift actions, but a detailed explanation of exactly how it works.
Applying what we all know about the intent of swift actions, I suggest we all treat Ready as allowing for a swift action, but not GRANTING a swift action.
You only get one swift action per turn, so no, no second swift actions.
What I would like to see is an FAQ on Ready, not just in regards to swift actions, but a detailed explanation of exactly how it works.
I doubt you will get it any time soon. Ready Action is a mess, and would warrant a big blog post like the light and darkness FAQ. It's probably best to hope that the dev team answer this little question now so we don't have to wait months in order for Mark to eventually get around to this particular area of the rules (he has a lot of other stuff to deal with).
This topic came up before. They might combine it with the other one and add the votes together. I really doubt ready action requires a blog. I hardly ever see it come up as a rules question or see anyone have trouble understanding it in real life.
This topic came up before. They might combine it with the other one and add the votes together. I really doubt ready action requires a blog. I hardly ever see it come up as a rules question or see anyone have trouble understanding it in real life.
Yeah, we basically do it this way:
Ready action-you can use it to perform a standard action later, move action later, free action later (no limits), or assuming you haven't already done it-swift action.
Been doing it that way for years, and never had to debate it before today. It blows my mind to see some of the opinions about how the rules work...
Boom! Brains everywhere.
Interesting. I've never found Ready to be all that complicated.
"I move to the door and ready to hit the first thing that comes through it."
Spent my Move. Spent my Standard. Next Player.
(Interestingly, if I went on Initiative 20 and the next creature that enters the room goes on Initiative 19, my standing doesn't change).
But let's add in the fact that I've been injured from a fight, I might instead say "I use my LoH to self-heal, then move to the door and ready to hit the first things that comes through it."
Spent my Swift. Spent my Move. Spent my Standard. Next Player.
Or maybe I'm more interested in defending than attacking and I have this special ability that allows me to add a nice big bonus to my AC for a few Rounds. So now (still injured) I say "I use my LoH to self-heal, then move to the door and ready to activate my ability if anything attacks me."
Spent my Swift. Spent my Move. Spent my Standard. Next Player.
It doesn't matter if that special ability normally requires a Free, Swift, Move, or Standard to activate. I can Ready it and activate it all with my Standard (like how drawing and loading the arrow is all part of a bow attack).
But saying that my Readied action still counts as its original action type, means I'm stuck with saying "I move to the door and ready to hit...nothing since attacking would be a Standard action, but I'm only allowed one per turn and mine is tied up in Readying."
That would certainly be a mess.
This topic came up before. They might combine it with the other one and add the votes together. I really doubt ready action requires a blog. I hardly ever see it come up as a rules question or see anyone have trouble understanding it in real life.Yeah, we basically do it this way:
Ready action-you can use it to perform a standard action later, move action later, free action later (no limits), or assuming you haven't already done it-swift action.
Curious as to why you would disallow a Readied Swift action if you've already done one, but not disallow a Readied Move action if you've already done one. You're only allowed one of each of those, since you can't burn your Standard (used to Ready) for a 2nd Move action.
Curious as to why you would disallow a Readied Swift action if you've already done one, but not disallow a Readied Move action if you've already done one. You're only allowed one of each of those, since you can't burn your Standard (used to Ready) for a 2nd Move action.This topic came up before. They might combine it with the other one and add the votes together. I really doubt ready action requires a blog. I hardly ever see it come up as a rules question or see anyone have trouble understanding it in real life.Yeah, we basically do it this way:
Ready action-you can use it to perform a standard action later, move action later, free action later (no limits), or assuming you haven't already done it-swift action.
No one I game with sees it as 'disallowing'. We all stick to the idea that swift actions are a sacred and rare thing, and treat them as such.
Our characters have been given the gift of one swift action a round.
Swift actions can do some crazy stuff that standards can't, like activating certain class abilities.
When making a new class/feat/spell whatever and designating it's activation/casting time/whatever as a swift action, it is clear (to my group) that the intention of the game designers was to use this as a control of how many of these powerful things you could 'turn on' in a single round.
Of course, we have been gaming for a very long time, and use the rules as intended approach more than rules as written, so we never really argue about the rules with each other, just with other types of players ('play the rules as written, intent is irrelevant and just clouds confuses people').
The phrase 'but the rules say...' usually is greeted by rolling eyes and a GM laying the smack down on someone who is attempting to powergame.
Anyway, like every thread on here, there are two sides. In this case it is "Ready is a way to activate two swift action abilities in a single round" and "No way can you violate that basic tenet of game balance".
I belong to the latter group.
The problem that you will face with people like me in discussions like this is that quoting text at me won't accomplish anything.
I have read it, I just think that the game designers either a)didn't realize what it would allow with Swift actions or b)didn't write enough text to describe it properly (swift actions only being available for readying if they hadn't already been used).
As my approach is holistic one, it is impossible to 'win' the point that I am trying to make, because I have no text to quote. I'm asserting that the text is broken/incomplete.
/rant
Interesting. I've never found Ready to be all that complicated.
"I move to the door and ready to hit the first thing that comes through it."
Spent my Move. Spent my Standard. Next Player.
(Interestingly, if I went on Initiative 20 and the next creature that enters the room goes on Initiative 19, my standing doesn't change).
But let's add in the fact that I've been injured from a fight, I might instead say "I use my LoH to self-heal, then move to the door and ready to hit the first things that comes through it."
Spent my Swift. Spent my Move. Spent my Standard. Next Player.
Or maybe I'm more interested in defending than attacking and I have this special ability that allows me to add a nice big bonus to my AC for a few Rounds. So now (still injured) I say "I use my LoH to self-heal, then move to the door and ready to activate my ability if anything attacks me."
Spent my Swift. Spent my Move. Spent my Standard. Next Player.
It doesn't matter if that special ability normally requires a Free, Swift, Move, or Standard to activate. I can Ready it and activate it all with my Standard (like how drawing and loading the arrow is all part of a bow attack).
But saying that my Readied action still counts as its original action type, means I'm stuck with saying "I move to the door and ready to hit...nothing since attacking would be a Standard action, but I'm only allowed one per turn and mine is tied up in Readying."
That would certainly be a mess.
Here are some examples of how Ready is problematic or badly explained
I ready an action to shoot someone when they pop out of cover. They pop out of cover. My ready action goes off just before they pop out of cover. They are still in cover. I can't shoot them???
Ready Action outside of combat (nothing actually prohibits you from doing this by RAW, it's just not explained how to handle it).
Ready Action interrupting other actions, making them impossible to perform.
Multiple characters getting ready'd actions simultaneously.
I am probably forgetting a couple of others too.
Snowblind brings up a valid point worth looking at:
Ready takes place BEFORE the triggering action. It literally cannot work the way it is written for some of it's intended uses:
1) I will ready to shoot him when the door opens
2) My readied action (happening before the trigger) hits a closed door
3) The door opens
So, strictly going by what is written, my above assertion MUST be correct, because Ready describes it that way.
So if we are gonna read Ready as allowing two swift actions a turn, lets also keep in mind the above statements (not opinions, that is how it would work, AS WRITTEN).
Still think it makes sense, as written?
If people are going to pick and choose sentences without looking at the whole picture, they are trying to describe an elephant after having only examined a single cell...
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I completely understand what you're saying and I've probably made the same comments about it. However the common-sense reading of Ready is that the readied action takes place before the trigger action "resolves". So an orc is in the middle of his action as he opens the door. Then the readied action happens. Then the orc's action continues (if he's still alive). For simplicity, your Initiative is now set to just before the orc.
Curious as to why you would disallow a Readied Swift action if you've already done one, but not disallow a Readied Move action if you've already done one. You're only allowed one of each of those, since you can't burn your Standard (used to Ready) for a 2nd Move action.I don't quite understand this statement. I think taking two Move actions is normal. In the Combat Section, it says:
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
And that is exactly why we are having this discussion. Did you notice the rule says you can't have that 2nd Move unless you give up your Standard for it? You bolded it. But when you Ready an action, what are you doing with your Standard? You're using it to Ready. So you don't have it to use for a 2nd Move that turn. So if I've Moved and then Ready a Move, I can't actually perform that 2nd Move.
This is the very problem with treating a Readied Swift as if it is still a Swift. Because if you say a Readied Action still retains its original "nature", then you are stuck spending a full-round action just to Ready a Move because you're spending a Standard to Ready and you're treating the readied action still as a Move. And you can't Ready a Standard at all!
Instead, I believe the rule of Ready is pretty clear. Readying is a Standard Action. So you take that action that was a Standard or Move or Swift or Free and it is now a Standard.
Perform a Swift? There's your Swift for the turn.
Perform a Readied Swift right after? There's your Standard for the turn.
Simple and no mess. You haven't violated any rules. You haven't performed 2 Swifts. You've performed 1 Swift and 1 Standard because the rule of Ready changes that action into a Standard.
And if you don't believe action types can change, then ask yourself how many Move actions are involved when rapid reloading a light crossbow? ;)
*sigh*
So you ARE allowing two swift actions per round.
You're just dressing a cat in bunny ears and calling it a rabbit.
I just noticed a couple of minor problem that makes this thing even more of a headache.
...
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
Right, so only one swift action a turn. However, since Readying doesn't consume another standard, it likewise shouldn't consume a swift.
But...
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
So swift actions have their own limitation. Note that standard and move don't have this caveat, so it appears to be a special limitation on swift actions specifically.
Bunny reference aside, it is no longer a Swift action if it is changed to a Standard action.
Rapid Reloading a light crossbow is no longer a Move action. It is changed to a Free action.
A Bard's Performance ability can change its action type as he gains levels.
Specific rules can change the Type needed to activate certain actions...which then changes what that action is. You're not performing a Move action with a Free action to reload that crossbow. You're just performing a Free action. A bard isn't performing a Standard action with a Move or Swift action. He's performing a Move or Swift action.
The problem stems from not recognizing Ready's ability to do this and insisting that a Readied Swift is still somehow a Swift and not a Standard as RAW says it is. I've pointed out (a few times) the flaws the messes that happen if we insist that a Readied action retains its original Type. I've also pointed out where the rule clearly says readying an action is a Standard.
Not really sure what more I can say. <shrug>
Interesting thing about that Bard ability though. More on that later when I have time.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
It is perfectly reasonable to interpret the above as you are using a standard action to perform a swift action. Even if it doesn't cost you your swift action for the turn, it is still a swift action and is thus still subject to the completely separate limitation of 1 swift per turn.
This assumes that Ready Action counts as on your turn, but that is another issue entirely.
Bunny reference aside, it is no longer a Swift action if it is changed to a Standard action.
Rapid Reloading a light crossbow is no longer a Move action. It is changed to a Free action.
A Bard's Performance ability can change its action type as he gains levels.
Specific rules can change the Type needed to activate certain actions...which then changes what that action is. You're not performing a Move action with a Free action to reload that crossbow. You're just performing a Free action. A bard isn't performing a Standard action with a Move or Swift action. He's performing a Move or Swift action.
The problem stems from not recognizing Ready's ability to do this and insisting that a Readied Swift is still somehow a Swift and not a Standard as RAW says it is. I've pointed out (a few times) the flaws the messes that happen if we insist that a Readied action retains its original Type. I've also pointed out where the rule clearly says readying an action is a Standard.
Not really sure what more I can say. <shrug>
Interesting thing about that Bard ability though. More on that later when I have time.
Okay, so if the action type is "changed" from Swift to Standard, as you propose, then you can no longer use it to activate abilities requiring swift actions, as you must use a swift action to activate them.
Either it is, or is not a swift action. If it is, then you only get one per round.
If it is not a swift action, then abilities requiring a swift action to activate cannot be activated by it.
Otherwise you might as well summarize the rules like this:
"You may, in one round, perform the following actions:
Full attack or cast spell with 1 round casting time
Move and perform standard action
Move and move again by using standard action.
In addition to the above abilities, you may perform free actions, limited by the GM, and you may also perform one swift action.
Or two, whatever. Ready allows you to trade your standard for pretty much whatever you want, so go nuts."
Look at Mythic rules. They allow you to have an additional standard action, and say you can't use it to cast spells.
THAT DOESN'T MATTER! All I have to do is ready an action to cast the spell, it transforms it into swift and allows me to cast another quickened spell, sure did manage to dodge THAT limitation! All hail the mighty Ready action!
I don't think they intended Ready to transform action types from Standard to other.
Maybe they did. This can't be the first thread about this...
After you ready your action you can end your turn, allowing you to escape the 1-per-turn swift action restriction.
When a readied action triggers, you just do the one thing you readied. You're not having an actual turn, you're just performing the readied action.
I don't see any wording in the rules that would preclude you from using the "ready" action to squeeze a swift action in between turns. Assuming you can't do that would leave you needing to explain why you can squeeze a standard action between turns.
Granted, this strictly RAW interpretation would lead to people using ridiculous constructions to turn standard actions into swift actions.
Player 1: "I use my swift action to spend a ki point to gain a +4 dodge bonus and I ready an action to enter crane style when I hear someone say 'cantaloupe'"
Player 2: I use an out-of-turn free action to shout 'Cantaloupe'!
There needs to be either a clarification of the ready rules to specifically prohibit readying swift actions after already using one that turn, or a rule that allows people to use standard actions to perform swift actions so the cantaloupe thing becomes obsolete. The ready rules are messy anyway, in some sentences, they refer to "action" and "turn" as if they were interchangeable terms.
Okay, so if the action type is "changed" from Swift to Standard, as you propose, then you can no longer use it to activate abilities requiring swift actions, as you must use a swift action to activate them.
Either it is, or is not a swift action. If it is, then you only get one per round.
If it is not a swift action, then abilities requiring a swift action to activate cannot be activated by it.
The general rule states that reloading a light crossbow is a Move action.
Are you arguing that when Rapid Reload changes it to a Free you can no longer reload a light crossbow because it really requires a Move action to activate?
I assume not. So why then are you placing that restriction on Ready? Readying is allowed to apply a specific rule to change the general, just like Rapid Reload or any other specific rule is allowed. I'm not sure I understand this insistence to isolate Swift from any Specific Rule that might change it from the general as if doing so would be a crime of such imbalance and unfairness as to break the game.
It's not really that important. If you feel like someone is "taking advantage" of the system in a manner that Forseti suggests, you are certainly free as GM to Rule-0 it.
Just on the off chance a dev reads this, PLEASE don't let this be a thing.
We have enough RAW corner cases without this.
I think there are a number of rules that can be abused by creative players. I don't believe it is the responsibility of the rules to guard against every possible corner case. That is the GM's job. If a player wants to pull cheesy moves and Ready things whenever the enemy blinks or breathes or whatnot, I think it's smart for a GM to put a stop to it.
At mid 40's, I generally game with folks that are easily within 10 years of me. I can't think of one of us that would think to abuse the Ready action (which doesn't seem to get used all that often) or any other actions.
Actually scratch that, I can think of one creative person, but we don't talk about him. :p
Perhaps I was unclear, but your answers to 1b and 2b are not what I was asking. You are giving me the action, but I wanted to know what Action Economy is used to perform that action. Readied Attack Actions or Readied Standard Actions are both actions that require a Standard Action out of the Action Economy.The Action Economy includes Full-Round, Standard, Move, Swift, Immediate, Free, and Not-an-action. So if you've spent your Standard to Ready a Move or a Swift and you've spent your Move to close, what are you spending when your Readied action activates? Some are insisting that Readying a Swift means spending your Swift. Others disagree.
I have a thought, but I'd like to hear others' first.
The RAW on this is extremely convoluted, but the breakdown is like this:
Lets say you take a move action, and then a standard action to ready a move action. Since making the preparations to move is an action in and of itself, this is not possible unless the timing of the condition happens after the start of the next round. So, if the conditions occur prematurely, you don't get to use your readied action, it's too early. It doesn't happen.
The swift action is different in that you are allows to "borrow from the future" with a swift action (aka immediate action).
Readying a standard action is an odd duck. This is essentially a reactive standard action that has the opportunity to interrupt. The "opportunity to interrupt" is what differentiates simple delaying from a readied standard action. '
This could have been re-written much clearer if someone were to work out the sequence of play that is allowed when it comes to delying, readying with all the different action types, but they didn't. Why that is it's hard to say...bad legacy rules from the 3.5 system.
I think there are a number of rules that can be abused by creative players. I don't believe it is the responsibility of the rules to guard against every possible corner case. That is the GM's job. If a player wants to pull cheesy moves and Ready things whenever the enemy blinks or breathes or whatnot, I think it's smart for a GM to put a stop to it.
At mid 40's, I generally game with folks that are easily within 10 years of me. I can't think of one of us that would think to abuse the Ready action (which doesn't seem to get used all that often) or any other actions.
Actually scratch that, I can think of one creative person, but we don't talk about him. :p
Due to how many people here play PFS the GM does not always have the last call. Thats the point of organised play. We all follow the same rules.
Yes at my home game this would never be a thing, and may result in pizza being thrown. But at a PFS game day if its ok by the rules I have to let it fly.
The RAW on this is extremely convoluted, but the breakdown is like this:
Lets say you take a move action, and then a standard action to ready a move action. Since making the preparations to move is an action in and of itself, this is not possible unless the timing of the condition happens after the start of the next round. So, if the conditions occur prematurely, you don't get to use your readied action, it's too early. It doesn't happen.
I agree with you here. This is the problem with treating a Readied Action as its original Type.
The swift action is different in that you are allows to "borrow from the future" with a swift action (aka immediate action).
Not exactly sure what you mean here, but if you're implying that a Readied Swift is the same as an Immediate, then I'm not sure I agree. They may act similar, but they have entirely different costs to them. The latter burns up your use of Swift the following round and the former eats a Standard, carries a potential Initiative penalty, and risks not triggering if the conditions are wrong.
Readying a standard action is an odd duck. This is essentially a reactive standard action that has the opportunity to interrupt. The "opportunity to interrupt" is what differentiates simple delaying from a readied standard action.
Again, treating a Readied Action as its original Type actually makes a Readied Standard impossible. You spend your Standard to ready an attack. Then when the conditions triggers, you find you've already used a Standard readying and since you're generally allowed ONE Standard, you have nothing left to attack with.
Messy really.
This could have been re-written much clearer if someone were to work out the sequence of play that is allowed when it comes to delying, readying with all the different action types, but they didn't. Why that is it's hard to say...bad legacy rules from the 3.5 system.
An easy fix might be either:
"...You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action that acts as a standard action..."
or
"...You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action, but readying a swift action still counts as your swift for the turn.".
The first clarifies the logical progression of how actions are handled. The second clarifies instructions on how to handle Swift differently than the others.
Due to how many people here play PFS the GM does not always have the last call. Thats the point of organised play. We all follow the same rules.
Yes at my home game this would never be a thing, and may result in pizza being thrown. But at a PFS game day if its ok by the rules I have to let it fly.
I must be lucky then. I belong to a sizeable PFS community and I can only think of 1 person who would try to pull cheese. And if he did, it's the other Players jumping on him for it until he gives up. So the GM doesn't have to do anything there. :)
An easy fix to all of this nonsense would be to get rid of the readied action altogether and extend the definition of the delay action to include a "conditional delay" wherein you delay any actions you have available until the conditions you declare come to pass. Which would allow for the ability to interrupt another's action.
That way the whole idea of what type of action is used to perform what action is clear, and the round flows smoothly.
Well as an attempt at Diplomacy (and you need to let this soak in for 1 minute so I can make my skill check), can we all agree on the following:
#1 When the "Ready action" refers to readying "a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action", it is talking about actions that require certain costs out of the Action Economy to perform. For example, attacking or drinking a potion are actions that require a standard to do, so they are listed under the standard actions category; moving or drawing a weapon are actions that require a move to do so you find them in the move actions section; a 13th level Bard's performance or Paladin's LoH to self-heal are actions that require a swift to do so if you made a list of swift actions, you would find these things here; and dropping a weapon or talking are actions that require a free to do so they are on the free actions list.
#2 We are normally allowed ONE standard action, ONE move action (or TWO if we give up our standard), and ONE swift action on our turn, but specific rules can come in and change this.
#3 Specific rules can change the "type" of Action Economy that an action needs in order to come about. When that "type" changes, it is for all intents and purposes treated as the new "type" and no longer the old "type" for the duration of the change. For example, loading a light crossbow is normally a move action (because it requires a move to perform). If I made a list of all the different move actions I can do, reloading a light crossbow would be on that list. Once I take the Rapid Reload feat, however, the action's "type" changes from move to free. The action of reloading that crossbow is taken off the move action list and placed on the free action list. Now, for all intents and purposes, the action of reloading that crossbow is treated as a free action. And this is only one example of many.
Can we all agree on these 5 things?-
-3, Sir!-
-3 things?
An easy fix to all of this nonsense would be to get rid of the readied action altogether and extend the definition of the delay action to include a "conditional delay" wherein you delay any actions you have available until the conditions you declare come to pass. Which would allow for the ability to interrupt another's action.
That way the whole idea of what type of action is used to perform what action is clear, and the round flows smoothly.
I don't consider the current Ready rules as "nonsense", but I do like your idea. Something like "You can delay a specific action in order to interrupt someone else's action. State the action you are delaying and the condition under which it will happen. Then when the condition occurs you can take that action. The action you perform is considered 'borrowed' from your next turn and you do not get to perform that action on your next turn."
I'm sure someone can point out all sorts of problems and abuses with this, though. :p
I can think of one already.
"I shoot the enemy with an arrow. Then I am delaying my move action. When he closes with me, I will move 30 feet away from him."
John Little
Archer
... The action you perform is considered 'borrowed' from your next turn and you do not get to perform that action on your next turn."
...
Not exactly. In my ruling delayed actions are consumed from the current round only...and if you delay too long (as in once the round finishes), you start at the top of the next round you lose the action you delayed, and any action you take from this point forward is your action for the round.
The "problems and abuses" you refer to is systemic of any round by round turn based system. It really can't be avoided.
And to think of it, it's not really an abuse. In MMO terms, this is nothing more than "kiting".
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I agree with Quintain on this, as I think an eloquent solution is to combine the features of ready and delay although in my mind I went about it differently.
Basically, (in my version) you can ready an action, but when it becomes obvious your trigger will never come to pass, you can stop waiting and come out as if in delay, with the normal consequences initiative-wise (non-interrupting and new initiative placement going forward). When coming out of delay in this manner, you would only have access to actions not taken during the previous turn in which you readied.
(I agree with Grey_Mage that this thread is better for this specific topic, so moving what was an illuminating conversation elsewhere over to here).
Let me postulate for a moment that Readying works in similar fashion as the Contingency Spell. We spend time (a Standard Action/10+ minutes) to set up a conditional Action/Spell that activates when a specified trigger happens.
If a person Contingency'd a Grace spell, does the activation of Grace in a given turn count as the person's Swift Action for that turn?
What if they Contingency a Shield Spell? When it goes off, does it count as their Standard Action for the turn?
Unless I've missed something somewhere (and I'm sure someone can point me in the right direction if I have), I believe the answer to those questions is "No".
When I Ready an action, I am not Readying an "Action Type". No one says to the GM "I ready to perform a Standard Action when the orc enters the room." We must state a specific action (or for sake of the poor Lexicon, I'll refer to it as an "Activity"). I can Ready any Activity (attacking, drawing a weapon, dropping prone, etc), and I must perform the Standard "Action Type" to do so. When the trigger happens and the Activity "fires", I am not performing any additional Action Types. If I readied to draw my weapon, I am not performing a Move Action with a Standard Action. I am just performing a Standard Action.
Now why would I think that? Well...
"Reloading a light Crossbow" is an Activity. The Move Action we perform to reload it is the Action Type. So we use short-hand to say "Reloading a light crossbow is a Move Action". But if the Action Type changes, then our short-hand reference changes. No one says "Rapid Reloading a light crossbow is a Move Action that I do with my Free Action". We just say it is a Free Action and move on.
Readying is a Standard Action. We are performing the Standard "Action Type" when we Ready and it involves:
1). choosing the Activity we want to do,
2). setting the condition under which it will take place, and
3). resolving it when the trigger happens.
There is no additional Action Economy "tax" to this process.
But doesn't this mean that Readying a Swift action is "technically" getting around the "Only ONE Swift Action per turn" rule? Actually, no.
The rule saying we are limited to ONE Swift Action per turn is not talking about Activities. It is talking about Action Types. Why do I think this? Because we find the rule in the section of the Combat Chapter that is talking about Action Types...specifically the Swift "Action Type". We just have a tendency to use the short-hand reference and call any of those actions "Swift actions"; which can sometimes get confusing when trying to discriminate between THE Swift "Action Type" and AN Activity that normally requires performing the Swift "Action Type" (but might require a different Action Type under special cases).
Just like Rapid Reloading is a Free Action (not a Move Action I'm doing with my Free action), Readying an action...even a Swift Action...is a Standard Action (not a Swift Action I'm doing with my Standard Action). Why? Because the rules tell us that Rapid Reloading is a Free Action and Readying (any Standard, Move, Swift, or Free) is a Standard Action.
Not attempting to berate the point, but someone on the other thread DID point out to me the Contingent Action spell. Interesting read.