Necromancer + Undead with Create Spawn = Undead Army?


Rules Questions


*Minor spoiler warning for Game of Thrones*

So I was watching the GoT TV series yesterday and I saw a White Walker animating what had to be hundreds, if not thousands of new wights (which had been killed by wights in the first place) with one spell/motion, and I got curious if that could be replicated within the existing Pathfinder rules.

The core rule for controlling undead in PF is that a spellcaster can only control his caster level in HD of undead, spread out among various undead as he sees fit. This makes controlling entire armies of undead pretty much impossible on your own, bar certain spells, feat and class abilities which increase this number.

Then I got to thinking. A common trait of undead created from the Create Spawn ability of an undead is that it reanimates under the control of its creator. Wight spawn certainly follow this rule. Now I got curious. Do new undead created by an undead that was created by a spellcaster count towards his HD limit? If yes, then this question is moot. But if it doesn't, it raises some interesting possibilities.

Let's got back to the GoT episode. The White Walker raises his hands and every human in the village behind him rises as a (frost) wight. Now, what if he wasn't actually animating them? What if that was simply a unique AoE spell/ability that speeds up the "animation time" of 'naturally' created wights to nothing? That way, he's not actually creating undead, he's just speeding up something that would have happened anyway, which I think is much simpler.

I don't believe I have ever seen a HD limit on undead with the Create Spawn ability in any of the bestiaries, so apparently those undead can create pretty much as many undead as they want, provided they do it personally. Spawn sometimes don't have the ability to create spawn of their own, but suppose they do.

Can undead command their own spawn over a distance?

Do they need to speak or is it a mental action?

Do spawn obey the creator of their creator?

Are there hierarchies among undead? Vampires in most fictions certainly seems so.

If this would be RAW possible, then a spellcaster "only" needs to create one undead with the Create Spawn ability, defend it while it kills and creates a suitable large number of spawn, then keep the "prime" undead controlled and safe while s/he sends out the new horde to kill and grow, while he keeps control of them with the "prime" undead.

What are your thoughts on this?


dot.


Undead don't gain telepathy when they create spawn, so I'd think they need to communicate the old-fashioned way to command their spawn. Similarly, spawn don't obey the creator of their creator; there isn't a "chain of command" situation.

Beyond that, there aren't a lot of rules governing what you're talking about - you can't really replicate that scene with an off-the-shelf ability. If you're coming at this from a player point of view, that is so you don't destroy the entire world in one standard action. ;)

If you're coming at it from a GM point of view, just do it and call it a special ability.


Uhm in a way There is a Chain of Command !

Necromancer Creates Wights, Wights create Spawns under their control. Necromancer tell Alpha Wights to order the Spawns to Not Attack him or his allies.

In short :

Necromancer -> Alpha Wights -> Wights Spawn !

P.S. Alpha Wights have a HD Total of controllable Spawn, wich is separated from the Controlling Bucket of the Necro !


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Goblin13 wrote:

Uhm in a way There is a Chain of Command !

Necromancer Creates Wights, Wights create Spawns under their control. Necromancer tell Alpha Wights to order the Spawns to Not Attack him or his allies.

In short :

Necromancer -> Alpha Wights -> Wights Spawn !

P.S. Alpha Wights have a HD Total of controllable Spawn, wich is separated from the Controlling Bucket of the Necro !

This. Though if your Alpha breaks lose the necromancer is going to have a really bad day.

Grand Lodge

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Goblin13 wrote:

Uhm in a way There is a Chain of Command !

Necromancer Creates Wights, Wights create Spawns under their control. Necromancer tell Alpha Wights to order the Spawns to Not Attack him or his allies.

In short :

Necromancer -> Alpha Wights -> Wights Spawn !

P.S. Alpha Wights have a HD Total of controllable Spawn, wich is separated from the Controlling Bucket of the Necro !

This. Though if your Alpha breaks lose the necromancer is going to have a really bad day.

Or if the Alphas die, because then their minions break loose and don't have to listen anymore, because they were only listening under orders that they no longer have to follow.

It's risky to control a large number of self-replicating undead, for just that reason.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Goblin13 wrote:

Uhm in a way There is a Chain of Command !

Necromancer Creates Wights, Wights create Spawns under their control. Necromancer tell Alpha Wights to order the Spawns to Not Attack him or his allies.

In short :

Necromancer -> Alpha Wights -> Wights Spawn !

P.S. Alpha Wights have a HD Total of controllable Spawn, wich is separated from the Controlling Bucket of the Necro !

This. Though if your Alpha breaks lose the necromancer is going to have a really bad day.

That's the risk of intelligent undead. They're great until they get loose, then boy is your day gonna be bad. Until then If the spawn are ordered not to harm the necro the hierarchy works.

It's one of those risk/reward necromancy situations in my opinion. So go for it, but when they're chewing your legs off...


Harark wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Goblin13 wrote:

Uhm in a way There is a Chain of Command !

Necromancer Creates Wights, Wights create Spawns under their control. Necromancer tell Alpha Wights to order the Spawns to Not Attack him or his allies.

In short :

Necromancer -> Alpha Wights -> Wights Spawn !

P.S. Alpha Wights have a HD Total of controllable Spawn, wich is separated from the Controlling Bucket of the Necro !

This. Though if your Alpha breaks lose the necromancer is going to have a really bad day.

That's the risk of intelligent undead. They're great until they get loose, then boy is your day gonna be bad. Until then If the spawn are ordered not to harm the necro the hierarchy works.

It's one of those risk/reward necromancy situations in my opinion. So go for it, but when they're chewing your legs off...

What... be ready to cast regenerate? What...


having regenerate and create/animate dead natively seems hard off the top of my head.

death domain druid?


It helps to be a type of Necromancer that Undead will respect even if you don't directly command them. For instance, be Undead (preferably Lich) yourself.

Even if you don't have the above feature, you pull your Alpha Undead off the front line once they get done creating Spawns up to their limit, and keep them relatively safe by having them concentrate on commanding their Spawns, except when they need to pop back up to the front to replace fallen Spawns. Make sure that you have a good number of Alpha Undead, and give them instructions (which are passed down to the Spawns) to destroy any Spawns that become uncontrolled, in case an Alpha Undead does go down.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

It helps to be a type of Necromancer that Undead will respect even if you don't directly command them. For instance, be Undead (preferably Lich) yourself.

Even if you don't have the above feature, you pull your Alpha Undead off the front line once they get done creating Spawns up to their limit, and keep them relatively safe by having them concentrate on commanding their Spawns, except when they need to pop back up to the front to replace fallen Spawns. Make sure that you have a good number of Alpha Undead, and give them instructions (which are passed down to the Spawns) to destroy any Spawns that become uncontrolled, in case an Alpha Undead does go down.

You basically make a situation where all the power is collected in one spot, and as such a team of intrepid and unlikely heroes might band together, slip into the fortress, and challenge you to end the undead war and save the kingdom.

Or someone could be smart and use scry and fry. Your defenses might not be strong enough to completely protect both yourself and the alphas.


Take Leadership. Then turn your Cohort into something with Create Spawn. Now you don't have to worry about it getting free because it follows you of its own free will (for whatever reason).

Or, just become a vampire and do it yourself.


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Yeah, spawn don't count toward your limit unless you use your ability to control them.

And ordering your minion to order it's minions should work too. "Don't attack this guy and do anything he says."

Now carry your lieutenants around in bags of holding (its not like they need to breathe).


^Actually not a bad idea. Just watch out for Arrows of Portable Hole . . . .

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