I still haven't seen any clarification for how the party gets to the dinner party to begin with. That makes a huge difference to me in determining what it is likely that a Paladin would, or should, do.
If the party seeks out the lich dinner Party wanting an alliance, I would think it very weird and wrong for a Paladin to attack the host (although I could see the Paladin refusing to go along.)
If the party is unwillingly teleported to the lich's lair, then I would expect the Paladin's first instinct to be to throw down.
Ugh, I hate to ever get into a Paladin alignment debate, but I will...
I wrote a whole article about this on our website, but it bears some re-iterating:
Paladins need a concept of utilitarianism and/or the common good. And to this end, the COC can and should be bent.
The paladin knows he will likely die if he charges the lich. If he does so, and the quest fails because of it, then he hasn't cured the plague and the end result is a net win for evil. If he works with the lich (naturally, he still can't do any evil himself along this quest), it's a net win for good. Because it tips the scale toward evil, attacking the lich is arguably the more evil course of action. One can always find counter examples to this kind of thinking, but this isn't one of them.
If he could kill the lich, that would be a different story, but he can't.
As for dealing with the attack: The more I play these games, the more I enjoy seeing somewhat believable consequences play out. I certainly wouldn't soft pitch the Lich's reaction. If it were my game, the lich would start with a humiliating domination/telekinesis/something similar, then follow up with a curse/geas/polymorph or something similar to give the attack some long-term consequences (nothing that makes him useless), then tell the paladin/group "ya get one" and send them on their way. If the PC still insists his paladin is attacking, then oh well, new character time.
I take this attitude toward players in general. You can try stupid things, but they will have consequences. I don't like to kill them if I can avoid it, because that closes a door instead of opening one, but I won't shy away from it either. (This also goes for NPCs. Don't be surprised when your party bloodthirsty "lawful good" murder-hobos kills the corrupt chancelor instead of unraveling his dastardly plot).
Different tropes for different folks.
"Dinner with evil" is a tried and true trope from my experiences. Some folks, however, just don't game that way. Cool by me, I don't really understand the "Scooby-Doo" style of play where folks' characters can never die without that player's consent that I read about on the boards, either, and other folks' apparently can't understand the "dinner with evil" thing.
That said, there area also folks who have had some really negative experiences with the "my NPCs are bigger/badder than you can DREAM and you must SERVE!" types of crap. I get that, and I can respect wanting to avoid those situations. Unless you know the OP personally, though, it's probably best to assume that they know what they're doing. I know I often cancel posts because its obvious that I play a VASTLY different game than whatever crazy thing is being described on a thread that has very little semblance to the types of gaming I engage in or enjoy and my posts will probably come across far more negative than they should. This seems to be a sort of backwards version of that.
As far as actual advise, I'd go with part of what someone suggested above. A Prot from Good spell with the PCs being "summoned" to the demi plane and therefor unable to physically harm the lich. If that paladin wants to "smite" the lich, let them make a knowledge: religion check to realize it will do them absolutely no good and possibly a great deal of harm if the lich becomes annoyed enough to note who they are and decide some scry and fry against the folks that the paladin cares about may be in order whenever the lich is a bit starved for entertainment in the future.
From a developmental point of view, it also gives a great nemesis for the PCs to aspire to overcome if the campaign continues far enough and gets them thinking in terms of strategy and grand strategy rather than just tactically. For me, that's a win as a GM in and of itself with PCs able to decide to go after a foe of their own initiative and makes it seem more "sandbox" (of course, if you're running an AP, this may not actually be optimal).
As always YMMV and some folks don't like certain flavors of gaming. Hopefully your players are the folks who can appreciate the verisimilitude of occasionally running into things that are not in their immediate-engagement CR range. I know my home group does, but we're apparently a bit off compared to a lot of other folks on these forums.
-TimD
the paladin should fall the moment he sees a lich if he doesn't explode into a blind rage.[/joke]
the "Scooby-Doo" style of play where folks' characters can never die without that player's consent
Ew.
That said, there area also folks who have had some really negative experiences with the "my NPCs are bigger/badder than you can DREAM and you must SERVE!" types of crap.
That's true. I can be very sensitive to that. Esp if I get charmed or teleported into a situation. The PCs have to be given some kind of choice in the matter so they can flip the villain the bird and walk out.
This scenario played out yesterday.
The Inciter from Kingmaker 2 returned! (My character chased him back to CENSORED and murdered him since he figured he was trying to incite a rebellion.)
Turns out his corpse was inhabited by a Vermlek Demon, he carried on his antics about the PCs and so forth, but my character came out to, "finish the job," when the other PCs come to intervene. A large crowd formed, some praised him as a far-seeing person to bring down the corrupt govt, many wondered if he was causing more harm than good and others wanted to see him thrown in the stocks. No one, however, was on his side when his face bloomed into a flower of teeth and started killing people. Shortly after a plague begins to work its way across the Kingdom (we only have 1 settlement). The next night, our Paladin had a dream wherein an Angel tells him to meet a Hound Archon in a given hex two days travel by our horse with a move speed of 80ft.
The PCs encountered a random battle with some trolls, and while someone almost died (which is par the course in our group) they dispatched them.
They met up with the Hound Archon who was being accosted by both an Atomie and a Grig, moreso being challenged to a duel by the Atomie while the Grig tried to play tricks on him. He ended up eventually punching the Atomie, when the PCs approached since he had just about enough of his crap. The Grig, however, he left alone since she was (mostly) harmless.
The PCs spoke with the Hound Archon, and instead of the Paladin it was the Magus who announced that the Lich Must Die!
The Hound Archon explained that they would be embarking on a quest to save their country from the plague that accosts it, and that the lich's motivations seem benign in regards to them and their kingdom. At this point the Atomie, whom the Grig was trying to wake up, heard something about quests, saving nations, defeating evil and maybe something about breakfast. Naturally, he announced that he would save them! The Grig tried to convince him that it was a bad idea, and the Hound Archon gave an exasperated sigh demanding if they really had to come along, but they wouldn't take no for an answer since, "Atomie never give into cowardice! *brandishes needle like a rapier*"
Of course the Atomie had no idea where they were going.
The Hound Archon leads them to the Spirit Well, where they must dive in. The well, he explained, was gateway to the Lich's domain. It appeared to be fathoms in depth, but was really only a few inches deep. The Paladin, in full faith of his host, tied only a safety harness about himself and handed the rope to everyone else, then lowered himself into the hole. Then...
His arms thrashed about, he drew his sword, the party all made strength checks as the Hound Archon stared with a raised eyebrow and the Atomie announced that he'd save the smelly dog paladin. A moment later, the Paladin's head pops above the water. He laughs, pointing at the party, whom promptly let go of the rope: dropping him 10 feet into a shallow pool.
This transitory area holds a lake, a river flowing at a sharp angle into the lake and a tunnel flowing at a steep angle out of the lake. There is also a ship that the party can use. They board, they use the oars to travel to the river flowing out of the lake. Then, like every scene in any animated film of the 90s or 80s they find that the tunnel is far steeper than they originally thought. They all hang on as what was once a 30 degree grade turns into a 45 degree grade, then a 60 degree grade. Half falling, they hold onto the ship, but then the ambush hits.
Darkfolk!
The Hound Archon tries diplomacy, but over the roar of the water and the cave overhead no one can hear him as darkness descends onto the ship. The Darkfolk attack, the party defends itself, the Hound Archon roars that if this is how they want to do this then so be it, the Grig fires her bow and the Atomie charges the nearest Darkfolk screaming about heroics. The melee beings in earnest, but then the boat reaches the bend in the river. The boat leans to a 45 degree angle, everyone makes acrobatics checks as the fight becomes a bumpy one, and every round an acrobatics check is required to not slip considering the boat's deck is being sprayed with water and blood. Eventually the last darkfolk is stricken down.
After the battle, the Atomie lays wounded (negative HP), the Hound Archon has taken some nasty blows, the Grig is shaking the Atomie begging him to wake up, and the party is in bad shape. This is one of the only encounters here, and it is epic difficulty including the NPCs with the party into the difficulty. The party is out of channel energies, since the only person built to fight in Deeper Darkness (my character) is sick with the plague and trying to run the kingdom with also fighting his sword's possession attempts.
The Paladin uses his last lay on hands on the Atomie, gaining the gratitude of the gratitude of the Grig and the grudging respect of the Atomie.
They rest, but time is of the essence. The next day, if any measurement of day could be made in a place with no sun, they travel into the demiplane, everyone carries a torch, provided by the Hound Archon, stating that it banishes the darkness. No one guesses the true meaning of the statement.
The crest the last hill, and there a massive fortress lays before them. Two skeletal champions stand at the door. The paladin growls about evil, but the skeletal champion on the left opens his part of the door to grant them entry.
The Magus, unable to contain himself draws his scimitar. He charges the skeletal champion. He swings! He hits! The skeletal champion looks aghast! I mean, really? He even opened the door for him! Such manners!
The skeletal champion lets loose a hissing scream as he and his comrade draw their greatswords to move into flanking. Then, they bow make disarm checks. The Magus has a fairly poor CMD, but the Skeletal Champions are not terrible in terms of CMB. One fails to disarm him, but the other succeeds.
The party pointedly says they don't help him.
The Magus casts shocking grasp defensively and electrocutes the nearest skeletal champion, but he rolls his 5d6 poorly.
Four more skeletal champions burst out of the door, and they all attempt to grapple the magus. Grappled, and then pinned he can't stop them from punching him into unconsciousness.
The next round 4 more skeletal champions arrive, then 8, then 12.
However, with the offender dealt with they leave. The Magus is shaken awake, and he agrees that attacking them wasn't his crowning achievement.
The party and NPCs are lead through the fortress by skeletal champions pointing them down hallways, and eventually meet a sickly looking vampire. He then leads them to the Lich's audience chamber, where he shall be with them, "shortly."
Three hours later the Atomie is moaning about how boring it is, the Grig and the Magus are recreating the Dueling Banjos scene from Deliverance.
Then, the doors spread wide. The Honor guard enters, they draw their greatswords, they hold them out in salute as the Lich enters. An aura of malevolence fills the audience chamber as both sides size the other up, then the lich's demeanor softens. He gives the PCs his lines, explaining that who he is is not important, but that he knows who is causing the plague accosting their country, where he is and how they can get to him. Baladur the traitorous apprentice has created a small fortress on the first layer of hell and is using a natural portal in Orv to go back and forth. He explains that the gateway Baladur's minions are using to cross from hell, to the Darklands to the Lich's own domain and then to the material plane is still open. He offers that he left things just the way they are so that Baladur is likely unsuspecting of any real resistance, and that so long as the PCs do not tip him off to their upcoming assassination attempt that he will be unlikely to martial his forces against them. The only catch is that the path they must take through the Darklands is a war torn path with armies of cave elves engaging with other denizens of the darklands on a regular basis. If they are going to take this path, then they must be swift, stealthy and steadfast in their determination.
He announces that the Hound Archon will remain behind, as it is not the place of immortals to meddle in the business of mortals, well unless it suits them.
The PCs protest, but the Hound Archon offers that he will be watching them from afar. He has brought them this far, but now the true journey is up to them.
The PCs ascent at last, the Grig cries that the big purple dog man isn't coming, the Atomie decries him a coward, but he parries demanding that should the PCs fail that someone will need to inform their country.
The PCs are permitted to rest in the fortress for the night.
The next night, they walk out into the wasteland, darkness on all sides and faint purple lights on the horizon. A single warning from the Lich as they leave, the purple lights are death to your kind. Darkness, and all of its inhabitants, rule this place. He created it to be impossible for any army to besiege, but he does not explain how or why, he simply offers that beings who walk in the light should never be in the dark.
The PCs shrug, still not understanding the cryptic hints, which is good since it leaves open the possibility that the hazard will actually effect someone.
However, we ended it there for the night.
The Magus learned his lesson at the front gates. No one decided that attacking the Lich was a good idea. Though, the Paladin did ask the Magus if he thinks the Lich could conquer them if he wanted to. They agreed that they should probably have at least one army to defend the kingdom with.
Of course, they haven't slept, yet, which is where the plane's hazard kicks in.
Sounds like there is a bit too much NPC on NPC action for my taste. But glad it went well:)
so the paladin fell then?[/joke]
So, I'm not gonna lie, the entire setup sickens me. Not just for the whole "let's throw the paladin a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'" scenario, which is so overdone it just makes me roll my eyes any time I encounter it...
...but even worse, the "I'm a nigh-godlike spellcaster employing and/or bartering a deal with people far below my personal capabilities and probably the capabilities of my servants to do something I could've most certainly done with significantly less effort, or at the very least sent many of my capable minions to accomplish."
Plot holes galore. Even if you're somehow trapped and you and/or your minions can't escape, you in all your vast power couldn't have found more suitable evil individuals to bargain with?
Yeah...kinda...shoddy... not really a dick move, but just a GM move I've seen enough to not be fond of.
The damned if you do damned if you don't setup, though, most assuredly was a dick move.
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So, I'm not gonna lie, the entire setup sickens me.
...
The damned if you do damned if you don't setup, though, most assuredly was a dick move.
I might not go so far as "sickened", but I agree with the sentiment.
Overused trope - Uber guy wants awestruck Jr. Hero to perform a task.
makes no sense - The power disparity between uber guy and the PCs makes it nonsensical that he would want the PCs for anything. Also the alignment/ethical differences.
Not again! - A lich. Really? It's always a lich...
Paladin setup - Deliberately choosing a lich instead of the countless other permutations of quest-giving-uber-guy
Although, regarding that last one, I feel that paladins get lots of good stuff. I won't debate whether they're OP or not, let's just say they're good enough that the devs felt, right or wrong, that they needed a restrictive code to balance them a little. Never challenging that code negates this balance and somewhat cheapens the flavor of the paladin and its overall RP experience. But challenging it with a binary "FALL or DIE" scenario is not a challenge, it's just a dick move. This may not be quite that bad but it could easily appear to the paladin and his player that it is that bad.
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You know, the way things have been playing out (as related by the OP) aren't my cup of tea either, but outright crapping on someone else's game is rude. Maybe his players like the game as it plays out - if so, then it's fine.
Only to lawful stupid Paladins. There is no glory, honor or justice in throwing your life away in a battle you clearly cannot win for no cause and no gain to the powers of good whatsoever.This meeting with a lich is the same as if the Paladin had walked through a town and detected evil on a peasant. The peasant and lich may be evil but they have not done anything or are not attempting anything that the Paladin has reason to oppose at this time.
In point of fact the lich is assisting good in opposing another evil which even the Paladin code says can happen on a limited basis.
This lich is in his own hole, keeping the deals he makes and is making a point of not attacking or molesting anything the party cares about or is protecting.
Will the Paladin note every damn thing he can about the lich, it's possible powers and weaknesses, lair, guards, abilities and items for possible future destruction? You damn well better believe he will.
But committing 'suicide by evil cop' should never be in a Paladins code unless the Paladin and player are playing lawful stupid. And if they are, why would a deity/the powers of good have imbued this idiot with divine powers to start with?
Honestly your best bet is to have the lich magiced to have either undetectable...
Oh, praise the Empyreal Lords, yes.
It's like everyone enjoys forgetting that things like Undetectable Alignment and literal paladin assignments exist. Hint, they do, and that should give you insight on the whole wide range of paladinhood.This scenario sounds like a completely functional situation for a paladin or anyone Good. The paladin and their party is clearly on a quest. Duty and desire to do good, help people, all that lovely spiel. So why would a paladin EVER shirk THAT holy duty, endanger their comrades and possibly ruin the quest, letting BOTH evils run free? Why? Deal with the underling, get as much information as possible, maybe the ex-apprentice even has insights and keys to destroying the lich. Even if that is not the case, why would the paladin not try to do their best then give all they can to their superiors? Are they not in a church or an order? Can they not contact Heaven to inform them about possible way to find and purge this lich? Are they horrifically separated from the world and unable to plan to any degree?
Paladins are AND need to be kept a functional class, part of a bigger picture. Especially since most of them are active parts of societies, churches and army units they are accountable to. They can't have any even semi-realistic ability to function if their first thought upon seeing a great piece of evil s#!# is not "how can I bring this down?" but "AAAARRRR FOR ME IOMEDAE!".
That aside, I think that when anyone desires to play an ideologically-bound or code-restricted character, it should be discussed with the DM. Not just "can I play a pally?", but how the player interprets the code, game aside, and how the character would see it too, or how it is taken by their specific deity. That way you can minimize the chances of surprise falls or raging righteousness where none were foreseen. Have a conversation both ways, to see where issues could arise. Could have prevented this mess.
So, I'm not gonna lie, the entire setup sickens me.
...
The damned if you do damned if you don't setup, though, most assuredly was a dick move.
I might not go so far as "sickened", but I agree with the sentiment.
Overused trope - Uber guy wants awestruck Jr. Hero to perform a task.
makes no sense - The power disparity between uber guy and the PCs makes it nonsensical that he would want the PCs for anything. Also the alignment/ethical differences.
Not again! - A lich. Really? It's always a lich...
Paladin setup - Deliberately choosing a lich instead of the countless other permutations of quest-giving-uber-guyAlthough, regarding that last one, I feel that paladins get lots of good stuff. I won't debate whether they're OP or not, let's just say they're good enough that the devs felt, right or wrong, that they needed a restrictive code to balance them a little. Never challenging that code negates this balance and somewhat cheapens the flavor of the paladin and its overall RP experience. But challenging it with a binary "FALL or DIE" scenario is not a challenge, it's just a dick move. This may not be quite that bad but it could easily appear to the paladin and his player that it is that bad.
Cool.
Guess no game that starts at level 1 makes sense then because there are other people a lot more powerful in the world who could do it themselves.
Not like they have something better to do or anything.
I suspect most of us have dealt with a player who played "Lawful Stupid" or "Chaotic Insane".
I still believe that there are many heroic stories that can be told wherein a character dies for no reason other than their beliefs with no hope of any victory or gain. Profit is not the ultimate expression of faithfulness.
This becomes particularly true with PF Paladins who are dumping intelligence to crank other stats.
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So, I'm not gonna lie, the entire setup sickens me.
...
The damned if you do damned if you don't setup, though, most assuredly was a dick move.
I might not go so far as "sickened", but I agree with the sentiment.
Overused trope - Uber guy wants awestruck Jr. Hero to perform a task.
makes no sense - The power disparity between uber guy and the PCs makes it nonsensical that he would want the PCs for anything. Also the alignment/ethical differences.
Not again! - A lich. Really? It's always a lich...
Paladin setup - Deliberately choosing a lich instead of the countless other permutations of quest-giving-uber-guyAlthough, regarding that last one, I feel that paladins get lots of good stuff. I won't debate whether they're OP or not, let's just say they're good enough that the devs felt, right or wrong, that they needed a restrictive code to balance them a little. Never challenging that code negates this balance and somewhat cheapens the flavor of the paladin and its overall RP experience. But challenging it with a binary "FALL or DIE" scenario is not a challenge, it's just a dick move. This may not be quite that bad but it could easily appear to the paladin and his player that it is that bad.
Cool.
Guess no game that starts at level 1 makes sense then because there are other people a lot more powerful in the world who could do it themselves.
Not like they have something better to do or anything.
I think the issue is that the more powerful people are stooping low enough to ask your level 1 PCs for help.
Your first level PCs saving a town because the inhabitants asked you to and the more powerful guys are too busy saving a nation is fair enough.
Your first level PCs saving a town because a powerful guys went and asked you despite the fact that if they had just gone and dealt with it themselves it would have been quicker, easier and more likely to work is just stupid.
So, I'm not gonna lie, the entire setup sickens me.
...
The damned if you do damned if you don't setup, though, most assuredly was a dick move.
I might not go so far as "sickened", but I agree with the sentiment.
Overused trope - Uber guy wants awestruck Jr. Hero to perform a task.
makes no sense - The power disparity between uber guy and the PCs makes it nonsensical that he would want the PCs for anything. Also the alignment/ethical differences.
Not again! - A lich. Really? It's always a lich...
Paladin setup - Deliberately choosing a lich instead of the countless other permutations of quest-giving-uber-guyAlthough, regarding that last one, I feel that paladins get lots of good stuff. I won't debate whether they're OP or not, let's just say they're good enough that the devs felt, right or wrong, that they needed a restrictive code to balance them a little. Never challenging that code negates this balance and somewhat cheapens the flavor of the paladin and its overall RP experience. But challenging it with a binary "FALL or DIE" scenario is not a challenge, it's just a dick move. This may not be quite that bad but it could easily appear to the paladin and his player that it is that bad.
Cool.
Guess no game that starts at level 1 makes sense then because there are other people a lot more powerful in the world who could do it themselves.
Not like they have something better to do or anything.
I think the issue is that the more powerful people are stooping low enough to ask your level 1 PCs for help.
Your first level PCs saving a town because the inhabitants asked you to and the more powerful guys are too busy saving a nation is fair enough.
Your first level PCs saving a town because a powerful guys went and asked you despite the fact that if they had just gone and dealt with it themselves it would have been quicker, easier and more likely to work is just stupid.
Except this is a Lich. Half of the entire flavor for Liches is that they get incredibly bored and unmotivated to do anything themselves as the centuries pass, to the point that they eventually space out so hard their entire body disintegrates and they're left as just a floating skull.
And regardless of which, it's not too much of a stretch to see this is the act of an incredibly arrogant being who wants to teach his wayward apprentice a lesson.
"B!+*& I don't even need to kill you, I can get these schmucks to do it for me."
Except this is a Lich. Half of the entire flavor for Liches is that they get incredibly bored and unmotivated to do anything themselves as the centuries pass, to the point that they eventually space out so hard their entire body disintegrates and they're left as just a floating skull.
And regardless of which, it's not too much of a stretch to see this is the act of an incredibly arrogant being who wants to teach his wayward apprentice a lesson.
"B%&@* I don't even need to kill you, I can get these schmucks to do it for me."
Damn right! And this probably entertains the lich to no end so it keeps him interested. Plus lichs were mortal casters who wanted immortality at any cost. One way of never dying is never getting into dangerous situations.
Far better to hand off your problems to competent schmucks who are expendable to you. Even better if they are good competent schmucks. Even EVEN better if you can corrupt them in the process.
Eh, in this case 2 out of 3 ain't bad and is a hoot for the Lich to watch.
Last week I had a player being a dipdong and cracking jokes (almost at the expense of the other players, but we were having fun) while the party woke up to the sound of the town guard knocking on the door. They asked them their whereabouts the night before, as there's been a murder in the inn, and the player jokes "At your mom's!" I asked him if that's what he really said, to which he replied "SURE!" Bare got punched in the mouth by the guard, then punched in the stomach when he brought up the guard's mother again, then hauled off to the stocks.
Turned out in his favor, as just a moment later an investigator came around looking for him... Sometimes stupid stuff makes the story more interesting, and it can even make the game more believable (sometimes. sometimes...)
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Batman follows a Gotham Police officer into a room. In that room, the Joker sits on a gaudy throne.
"Hey, welcome, I'm glad my friend here *fist bumps police officer* brought you here like I asked. I'm aware of a poison that is accosting your city since I've been tracking the activities of a henchman that has betrayed his employment to me. If you catch him, you stop the poison, and it just so happens I can tell you exactly where to go. Of course, the only major issue is that he seems to be using a secret tunnel to an Arkham laboratory that exists in Gotham.
"With my disguise I can obscure you from the worst of what exists in Arkham, but it just so happens that my informants have traced this path. *He presents a detailed map to Batman, complete with possible shortcuts and a general time frame for travel.*This should be enough, but I can't tell you exactly what you will find on the way. However, with my disguise around you, he'll be unable to deduce your location, purpose or intentions through whatever surveillance he wields.
"The officer will stay here. *he hands them a radio.* You may speak to him through this if you wish, and should you require it, he may be able to aid you in some way if you find yourself unable to progress. However, I implore you to keep it covered, in a utility belt pouch if you can, for our enemy may use it to spy on you directly when his surveillance fails to offer him the insight he so desires."
Would Batman say "okay Joker"?
As I recall...yes. He has in the past teamed up with the Joker (or other villains, the better example being Ra's Al Ghul) to stop a more immediate or greater threat.