I tend to think that if you, as a player, over extend yourself in a dungeon such that you need to rest in the dungeon you deserve what you get.
Seriously if you enter an enemy fortress/dungeon/tower/temple and think you can attack some of them and then rest right there without patrols looking for you or creatures moving about their business coming across you and finding you then you deserve to die as your character is too stupid to live.
I see many folks saying the GM should take character rests into account. I counter this with PLAYERS should take character rest into account and act accordingly. Use hit and run tactics on the enemy to draw some of them out and thin their numbers before entering. Have a fallback location outside the lair already planned before entering the dungeon so you can get there quickly when you need to rest.
SAVE some resources for the trip out/the evening so if your found you can fight.
Smart adventurers live. Dumb ones use up all their resources and then camp in the dungeon.
Using that same logic the denizens of the dungeon should track the adventures down when they retreat. Attack them in their camp away from the dungeon.
Also, what about if the dice do not fall in a normal distribution? A couple of extra crits by the bad guys can eat resources much faster than anticipated. A string of bad rolls and many more resources will be used, from spells that fizzled due to failed concentration and spell penetration checks, to more HP being lost due to bad guys being up and swinging from not being hit, to PCs being taken out by a failed save.
Some dungeons are not meant to be cleared in one go. Take a look at anything published from 1st or 2nd edition. There is no way to bull through in one try.
Using the fortress full o' bad guys example, the players would be rather ... dense ... for not using such assets that are at their disposal to reconnoiter and gather intelligence.
Now, if the group is a "kick open the gates and kill 'em all" bunch of characters, in which case the result can strongly resemble doing the same thing IRL to a large hornet's nest. And the players should be aware of such possibilities. If not, they may be unpleasantly introduced to it.
Some castles full o' bad guys may have fire drills in place, complete with fall back positions and all that wonderful jazz. Others may be full of goblin types that howl with laughter at "those other posers" getting slaughtered by intruders in the courtyard.
TL;DR: It varies. Recon to find out what you're facing. Or suck it up cupcake when the angry defenders bring their "A" game.
Also, what about if the dice do not fall in a normal distribution? A couple of extra crits by the bad guys can eat resources much faster than anticipated. A string of bad rolls and many more resources will be used, from spells that fizzled due to failed concentration and spell penetration checks, to more HP being lost due to bad guys being up and swinging from not being hit, to PCs being taken out by a failed save.
Some dungeons are not meant to be cleared in one go. Take a look at anything published from 1st or 2nd edition. There is no way to bull through in one try.
That is why it is called adventuring and not guaranteed return on investment.
And a lot of those first and second edition modules would have sections on what would happen if the adventurers left and came back.
I am not saying modules/adventures should not be well designed or well run by good GM's, I AM saying that lumping all the responsibility on the GM is just as unfair as a bad gm unduly punishing players. I am saying if players do something stupid then they should reap what they sew.
That assumes you have the ability to recon. You often don't, especially at the low levels.
There are decent amounts. A stealth focused character can do very well at low levels before perception scores get really crazy, animal companions/eidolons can do well as scouts if built/selected for it, by third level invisibility cam be available which can be a great tool for scouting.
And I think there is a reason that most low level monsters are usually not well organized and as smart as your average tree stump. :)
Using the fortress full o' bad guys example, the players would be rather ... dense ... for not using such assets that are at their disposal to reconnoiter and gather intelligence.
Now, if the group is a "kick open the gates and kill 'em all" bunch of characters, in which case the result can strongly resemble doing the same thing IRL to a large hornet's nest. And the players should be aware of such possibilities. If not, they may be unpleasantly introduced to it.
Some castles full o' bad guys may have fire drills in place, complete with fall back positions and all that wonderful jazz. Others may be full of goblin types that howl with laughter at "those other posers" getting slaughtered by intruders in the courtyard.
TL;DR: It varies. Recon to find out what you're facing. Or suck it up cupcake when the angry defenders bring their "A" game.
Far too often in the "fortress full o' bad guys example", if the fortress is set up intelligently, the "proper tactic" is "go somewhere else and look for easier prey". Which is fine if it's a sandbox game and there's no particular reason to go there, but if your in-game motivation is strong enough that's not going to work.
More simply, once you've reconned to find out what you're up against and you've found that the castle has "fire drills in place, complete with fall back positions and all that wonderful jazz", what do you do? Other than leave.
You examine what you've learned. Watch their routines, taking notes accordingly. Pick a weak spot and gain entry that way. Rare is the fortress that PCs must assault that they don't have a fair bit of time to afford themselves the luxury of reconnaissance. Often the most difficult part is getting inside.
This depends on who the enemies are. If the enemies are supposed to be smart (or have smart leaders), then they'll try and find the people who have invaded their home and cut up uncle Charley.
Less organized groups won't be doing this, but they still move around some. They need food and to go to the bathroom, etc. If they players don't choose a good spot, well, they may get visitors.
I often notice that some people want to do something great with every action. This is a driving force behind some people with nova-itis. When there's one foe left and they use a spell on it instead of letting the fighting types deal with it. I've told a couple players to think about if the target is worth the resources you're expending.
Nah. The far more difficult part is getting back out and then getting in again the next day once you've left and rested as we've been told is the proper thing to do.
*chuckling* Resting while recon is going on often works. ;)
It does depend on the particulars.
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I think that the best time to rest isn't when you’re out of resources but when you have enough resources left for at least one more good fight. Similarly, if the dungeon seems like it is too dangerous to rest in you should probably think about finding a way back out before you're completely exhausted and or surrounded by foes.
I also think that maybe too few casters consider the wisdom of buying or crafting scrolls and wands. Using them might not be as exciting as casting your highest level spells, but it sure beats standing around shooting a light crossbow for 1d8.
Rules for taking rests is just so utterly underdeveloped.
By now, you would think there would be multiple ways to recover resources without a full rest. Combat drugs, short rest, something.
Unchained does have some "short rest" rules for the Stamina Pool, which seems intended to help Fighters and perhaps other martials. Oddly enough it might be casters who could most benefit from some sort of "short rest" crutch since they're the ones who usually want to rest after the "15 minute adventure day". Sure, it would let them go nova without ending up powerless, but the fact they wouldn't be powerless might help the Fighters cajole them into continuing and the DM into convincing them he's not just trying to force them into fights they can't participate in.
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Ok, I homebrew most everything in my games. The stuff I do take from modules/APs is modified to fit my gameworld. That being said I have plenty of megadungeons.
For the purposes of this discussion I'm defining "megadungeon" as any dungeon that can't reasonably be expected to be cleared, ever, instead requiring PCs to make surgical strikes or prolonged explorations within. By this definition I have had megadungeons set in:
- Underground
- Huge (town-sized) ruins
- Open wilderness such as dark forests and evil swamps/marshes/moors
Some of these places have obvious areas for rest. In the Nettlewood for example it is well known that there are many small, shallow caves not only in the rugged hillsides but even under tree roots and along hedgerows (Knowledge: Geography; DC 15 to locate). That being said you might have to deal with some Grinning Goats, Rootrender kobolds or various flora/fauna when you get there but these can easily be barricaded (DC 20 Survival check) against the elements and common nuisances like rats and wild dogs.
Other places, like the underground labyrinths beneath Flamenwing Castle that span miles of tunnels, rooms and chambers are less obvious but still provide ample space. In traditional "dungeons" like this I use the following ratio: In every 10 rooms there will be 4 encounters with monsters, 2 traps/tricks/puzzles etc (no monsters or things that ALERT nearby monsters) and 2 empty rooms.
Empty rooms are their own resource. Several game sessions ago the PCs exploring Flamenwing came across a sub-level which had belonged to an alchemist. She had allied with goblins, tried to double cross them and both groups (goblins and alchemist) had been destroyed. After the subsequent coup kobolds exploring the area had set up temporary guard posts around the sub-level and were slowly exploring it themselves for resources while dealing with the slimes, oozes and undead left behind by the conflict.
The PCs came along and found the ultimate room. Tucked in the back of the sub-level was a small sanctum which the alchemist had used as her "Back Door"; an empty room with built in shelves, a small table and a ladder to a hidden escape hatch 60' overhead, exiting out into the surface above.
The PCs set up here and rested. After a time they completely cleared the sub-level and sealed off a section of 4 other rooms, giving them tactical control over 5 rooms in total. Among these they found a well leading to a lower level while the ladder took them to the surface. This section of 5 rooms were warded, outfitted with locks and magic, and cleaned using divine and arcane spells. Now the PCs have a Secret Lair.
Finally the encounters I use rarely fit the 15 minute workday. A particular "level" of my megadungeons has at least around 24 encounters (maybe more) plus random encounter tables. Within these however I try to include many APL -1 encounters. For example if the PCs are APL 3 I try to design at least 12 encounters of CR 2. Why? Because if the PCs encounter 1 room next to another that are both filled with monsters, reinforcements won't completely destroy them. Also the PCs can chew through dozens of encounters at a time, meaning if they push themselves the PCs can have a full 8 hours of adventure.
TL/DR: I guess my suggestions would be:
1. If you don't have a reasonable expectation that PCs will completely clear a dungeon or a level of a dungeon, provide natural "rest stops"
2. Try to organize your encounters to support a longer adventure day without overwhelmning your PCs
3. Encourage your players (through actual conversation or hints/suggestions left by previous occupants) to establish temporary or permanent bases of operation throughout larger "dungeon" environments
Last, but certainly not least, if you know it's going to be a LONG dungeon/megadungeon experience, take pity on your PCs with consumables and one-time boons. Here are some that I've used:
1. The Lyrakien: so Lyrakien Azatas tell tales and remove fatigue right? Well I had one in a "megadungeon" where she challenged a PC to a tale-telling contest. If the PC successfully beat her in a challenge (she got a 21 Perform: Oratory) they unlock an extended ritual that turned 2 hours into an 8 hour rest.
2. A font of positive energy: so I had a font at the end of a dead end hall that 1/day expelled water that acted like a Channel Energy for healing. The device granted the effect of a level 5 channel effect (heal 3d6 damage) and it repulsed undead. The players made a successful knowledge, barricaded themselves in and defended their position for 2 nights of rest there healing to full and repairing all their gear.
3. Scrolls/potions/wands: add these to EVERY treasure. I mean EVERY one. Do they always need to be combat oriented? Heck NO! Scroll of web shelter at 4th level but with Extend Spell on it: its worth 300 GP sure, but it's also granting an 8 hour shelter for 4 PCs to rest that can be concealed outdoors. A wand of Arcane Lock; 30 GP/charge but seals the party into an empty chamber well for the foreseeable future.
In other words: first give them a REASON to rest (more than a 15 minute workday) and then give them the tools they need to survive. If they screw it up at that point its not your fault!
Ok, I homebrew most everything in my games. The stuff I do take from modules/APs is modified to fit my gameworld. That being said I have plenty of megadungeons.
For the purposes of this discussion I'm defining "megadungeon" as any dungeon that can't reasonably be expected to be cleared, ever, instead requiring PCs to make surgical strikes or prolonged explorations within. By this definition I have had megadungeons set in:
- Underground
- Huge (town-sized) ruins
- Open wilderness such as dark forests and evil swamps/marshes/moorsSome of these places have obvious areas for rest. In the Nettlewood for example it is well known that there are many small, shallow caves not only in the rugged hillsides but even under tree roots and along hedgerows (Knowledge: Geography; DC 15 to locate). That being said you might have to deal with some Grinning Goats, Rootrender kobolds or various flora/fauna when you get there but these can easily be barricaded (DC 20 Survival check) against the elements and common nuisances like rats and wild dogs.
Other places, like the underground labyrinths beneath Flamenwing Castle that span miles of tunnels, rooms and chambers are less obvious but still provide ample space. In traditional "dungeons" like this I use the following ratio: In every 10 rooms there will be 4 encounters with monsters, 2 traps/tricks/puzzles etc (no monsters or things that ALERT nearby monsters) and 2 empty rooms.
Empty rooms are their own resource. Several game sessions ago the PCs exploring Flamenwing came across a sub-level which had belonged to an alchemist. She had allied with goblins, tried to double cross them and both groups (goblins and alchemist) had been destroyed. After the subsequent coup kobolds exploring the area had set up temporary guard posts around the sub-level and were slowly exploring it themselves for resources while dealing with the slimes, oozes and undead left behind by the conflict.
The PCs came along and found the ultimate room. Tucked in the back of the sub-level was a...
Megadungeons are the best. I should go work on one, and further plan my overseas trip to see caves.
I have the 3.5 "Expedition to The Demon Web Pits" and "Expedition to The Ruins of Greyhawk" hardcover megadungeons. But I'll never get to run them because my players have decided that they want to stay in an urban style campaign setting w/out dungeons and dungeoneering. I suggested it once and most of them said they'd stop gaming if I ran them.
I still run my games where the rope can be withdrawn into it. So nyah! Paizo!
Cant be pulled in: Ok, I kinda get that. this fragile rope is acting to keep the portal open, or whatever. I don't care for that, but I sort of get it.
Cant be hidden: What does that even mean? I can't put it behind a tapestry? in a broom closet? Paint it green and cast in in a bunch of vines? Cast it inside a next of 10K other ropes? If they're going to have this limitation they should at least clarify what it means.
Edit: what if you have a rope that you've made permanently invisible?
I too wondered if you can't drop the rope behind a curtain or something. Is it OK if the rope is inside a closed room? What if it is inside a tent? There are some rules about climbing the rope, but I wonder if creatures can jump down out of the window or fly up into it.