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In the group where I am the DM, it happens frequently that the party decides after a level or portion of a dungeon, they need to rest up. The spellcasters especially burn through their spells and after half an hour of in-game time the characters leave the place and rest up for 8 hours.
There are times where this is easily done, but there are also times when this would give the enemy time to prepare or even retaliate.
I wanted to know how common this is in your games and how it is handled - is it no big deal, are you adjusting the enemies left or do some of them even come after the party?
One of the latest ideas might even kill the party:
Spoiler for Carrion Crown: Shadows of Gallowspire
After clearing the Renchurch Cathedral, they want to barricade a room and rest there before going to the catacombs below...
The chances that they are found are not that small. Even if barricaded, there are ghosts, a Lich and Lucimar the Lich-Wolf down there. The logical thing would be, that they wipe the party out.
Camping in the enemies fortress is not the smartest move...
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I typically handle it one of two ways:
1. Handwaving. It's a game, after all, and you have to make concessions to the game-y nature of it sometimes. Especially if it's not an ongoing campaign and we're just having fun, as long as I don't feel like the players are trying to abuse it, I'll handwave finding a "Safe Room" where they can rest for the night. (Though it is a dungeon so there's still watches and roll for encounters.)
2. Provide enough division that it's feasible the dungeon's more powerful denizens don't know the PC's are around yet. So for instance, the party infiltrates a tower through its dungeon and kill all of the mindless undead they've found there, but the lich at the very top is still blissfully unaware of their presence as he hasn't had cause to go down and worry about those poor sops in centuries. Besides, he has far more important work to do.
You can get away with it, if you find a safe area and barricade in.
Or, you will probably die, the sentry will be attacked waking everyone, and you will be disturbed before you get the hours of rest you need.
If you are really unlucky, the insects and small critters attack the sleeping spellcaster/s, not the larger monsters, meaning even more time is wasted trying to fend off the small fauna of the dungeon.
In the group where I am the DM, it happens frequently that the party decides after a level or portion of a dungeon, they need to rest up. The spellcasters especially burn through their spells and after half an hour of in-game time the characters leave the place and rest up for 8 hours.
There are times where this is easily done, but there are also times when this would give the enemy time to prepare or even retaliate.
I wanted to know how common this is in your games and how it is handled - is it no big deal, are you adjusting the enemies left or do some of them even come after the party?
One of the latest ideas might even kill the party:
Spoiler for Carrion Crown: Shadows of Gallowspire
** spoiler omitted **
On camping in the enemies fortress as being a bad move, there is a steam group called the Crafty Campers Clan. They specialise in killing campers across many strategy games. A lot of people seem to try camping, even when surrounded by hostiles.
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A tabletop RPG is not a copmputer RPG where literally nothing happens until the SCs open the door to a room. Let the denizens of the dungeon react to the intruders properly within their knowledge and intellect.
* they build barricades
* they cluster in defensive rooms for mutual protection, instead of all hanging out seperately where they can be picked off mincemeal
* they call for backup
* they flee (and take the princess / the McGuffin with them)
* they all congregate in one massive warparty to flush out and overwhelm the intruders once located where they try to rest
* they burn the important intel lest it falls into the hands of the enemy
* the lay traps
* they lay ambushes
And most importantly: Several of the above!
P.S.
Once a group of mine got bricked in when some Duergar Deep dwarfes collapsed the only way in into a good defensible position within one of their mines where we were resting up after being nearly out of resources. We nearly starved to death before we could dig ourselfs out after several days. Then they had posted guards that reported the digging-out noises so they laid an ambush when we finally broke through. Nasty fight and two deathes before we could disengage and run away topside.
This was the time that really hit home that properly played dungeons are dynamic areas, and not just static encounter areas!
I've mostly handwaved it over the years, as the players do need time to heal and stock up on spells for the next day. If the storyline depends on them being attacked in their downtime, then of course it happens. But mostly I just let them have their break.
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It really depends. Honestly, you should look at it from a metagame point of view more often than not.
Are the PCs worn down, out of healing and spells, and low on HP? Let them rest. A TPK isn't fun for the players, and it isn't fun for the GM, so why encourage it happening?
If, on the other hand, the Sorcerer or whatever has decided to blow all his spells on 2 or 3 fights and everyone else is fine? Yeah no.
A TPK can serve as a cautionary lesson not to sleep in the fortress/dungeon of doom.
Sorcerers find it a bit harder to blow all their spells, by the rules, as they have so many of them. In my experience it is the other spellcasters that have used up their top tier spells after a few engagements and want to slow everyone else down and make the poor decision of resting, so that they can get them back. It is a system problem exacerbated by those that want to play it safe and easy.
The best way to stop this is not to TPK them as they rest, but for the rest of the party to say "no, use the rest of all those spells you have".
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Big problem I have encountered is being a resource husbanding character working with a nova character. They blow through 1/3-1/2 of their resources in a single fight. This means after one or two fights, they want to rest while my character is good for at least two more. It makes for 15 minute adventure days, which I don't care for.
As to the OP, I am all for random encounters throughout the night, casing difficulty getting spells back, and maybe killing someone. Sometimes you need to do it, but it has high risks.
/cevah
A TPK can serve as a cautionary lesson not to sleep in the fortress/dungeon of doom.
Sorcerers find it a bit harder to blow all their spells, by the rules, as they have so many of them. In my experience it is the other spellcasters that have used up their top tier spells after a few engagements and want to slow everyone else down and make the poor decision of resting, so that they can get them back. It is a system problem exacerbated by those that want to play it safe and easy.
The best way to stop this is not to TPK them as they rest, but for the rest of the party to say "no, use the rest of all those spells you have".
You would think so, but for some reason Spontaneous casters tend towards blasting, which means they need more spells per encounter than a summoner/controller/buffer which Prepared casters tend towards.
I'm with EnterisShadow and Rynjin on this one. Let it happen. Metagame over stricture. Unless it is part of the game design to work with limited resources in an ultra planned way, its best just to let people rest and replenish. You can always stick in a wee random encounter just to keep them on their toes though, but don't make it a major thing.
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No, I have a better solution.
The party want to find a place to rest. The dm suggests you find a safe spot.
Party goes looking for a bit, find a broken door. Inside are the remains of an adventuring party. Their bedrolls are laid out, as are their bones, with dry leathery skin still clinging to them. The dark pools and great dried bloodtrails indicating they were hit hard, that something tore through them spraying their blood to the walls, with a touch even making it to the roof. Rending may have been involved, and axes, and no corpse has all its limbs attached.
"You might want to think about where you sleep" says the DM.
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This is exactly why Rope Trick was invented.
Edit: Not foolproof, but a lot better.
No, I have a better solution.
The party want to find a place to rest. The dm suggests you find a safe spot.
Party goes looking for a bit, find a broken door. Inside are the remains of an adventuring party. Their bedrolls are laid out, as are their bones, with dry leathery skin still clinging to them. The dark pools and great dried bloodtrails indicating they were hit hard, that something tore through them spraying their blood to the walls, with a touch even making it to the roof. Rending may have been involved, and axes, and no corpse has all its limbs attached.
"You might want to think about where you sleep" says the DM.
And then what?
Obviously the group was already thinking about where to sleep and looking for a safe spot. So what do they do?
What would you do? Think, consider, act.
You have control of your character. This place is obviously not safe for a camping trip.
It is. It's also basically useless until 8th level (when the casters can rest long enough to regain spells.
It's also GMs of the Thou Shalt Not Rest in Dungeons school keep nerfing it or giving advise about how to make it too dangerous to use.
I am against resting in dungeons without serious precautions, but I like the spell and look forward to hearing the amusing solutions players come up with to rest right on the front line, which of course can include magic.
This is exactly why Rope Trick was invented.
Edit: Not foolproof, but a lot better.
Indeed, or Tiny Hut or Magnificent Mansion spells, if they're of high enough level. Even in scroll form they would be helpful.
"Nova then camp" is a very amusing phrase.
If they have enough of an area they could also set up traps, depends on the area and terrain (would be amusing to turn traps upon the inhabitants trying to reclaim their dungeon).
They can also ignore the dm's advice or what the dm shows them with the dead party. They have the choice and maybe the dm is bluffing...
You asked what the party would do. To answer that, you would need to be in the party and make a contributing decision.
I don't remove choice from my players, I think it is key - and their choices may get them killed, or they just keep being attacked and they can't get to sleep. *shrugs* I let the dice decide if they are attacked, if I have nothing planned or on a schedule. My players have made some fantastic fortifications in their time, all to get some shut-eye.
Yeah, pretty much this. Figure out why the characters keep needing to rest in the dungeon. If they're novaing and blowing through a couple encounters then resting to do it again, then you want to convince them not to do that. Preferably by talking to them, but making it dangerous to rest can be an backup option.
If they're clearing a significant chunk of a dungeon that isn't designed to be swept in one pass, then resting has to be accounted for, one way or another. Leaving and returning. Safe areas to rest. Something. Often the dungeon can be designed in such a way that it's broken into poorly connected sections and resting after clearing one of them should be fairly safe.
Even with leaving and returning, there's a temptation to punish the party by having the enemy reinforced or on high alert, ready to ambush a returning group. That might make sense, but design around it.
I do not design the dungeons myself, I'm using an Adventure Path. I have no idea if the dungeon was designed to be cleared in one go or not.
I told the group that they have to go deep into enemy territory and have to plan accordingly though - and then the druid blasts the first guard she sees with her only level 7 spell and a level 5 one (admittedly, it was a giant, but starting with the strongest spell does not seem to be minding the ressources).
Go with what makes sense.
Know what the opponents have in place to protect their domicile, and what means they have to know if something is amiss.
If team sneaky tries to case the place and infiltrates, they might be able to rest within a fortress.
If team clanks-a-lot and the boom-boom mage kicks in the front door, they will gain some traction at first due to the sudden shock of an assault - yet will have the whole dungeon piling after them in a few more moments.
The point is, do what makes sense. NPCs don't automatically know there's a break in on their fortress. That doesn't mean they are senseless either. The more a group causes disruptions, the quicker the group is found. If there are miles of caves, there might be a place to rest for eight hours with only a moderate chance of being discovered. If the place is a manned castle, the group better have wands, scrolls, and potions to fall back on because getting more than a five minute break isn't in the cards once the alarm is sounded.
In the group where I am the DM, it happens frequently that the party decides after a level or portion of a dungeon, they need to rest up. The spellcasters especially burn through their spells and after half an hour of in-game time the characters leave the place and rest up for 8 hours.
There are times where this is easily done, but there are also times when this would give the enemy time to prepare or even retaliate.
I wanted to know how common this is in your games and how it is handled - is it no big deal, are you adjusting the enemies left or do some of them even come after the party?
One of the latest ideas might even kill the party:
Spoiler for Carrion Crown: Shadows of Gallowspire
** spoiler omitted **
If memory serves, they should have acquired the ability to rest in a mage's magnificent mansion before entering that location. Presuming the pick an out of the way spot to hang the entrance - or better yet, cloak it behind an illusion of their own - before recuperating, they're probably safe.
Probably. ;)
It is. It's also basically useless until 8th level (when the casters can rest long enough to regain spells.
It's also GMs of the Thou Shalt Not Rest in Dungeons school keep nerfing it or giving advise about how to make it too dangerous to use.
5th level if you have extend spell. (you'll need a 3rd level spell slot)
4th level if you have a lesser rod of extend spell (3000 GP).
Indeed, or Tiny Hut or Magnificent Mansion spells, if they're of high enough level. Even in scroll form they would be helpful.This is exactly why Rope Trick was invented.
Edit: Not foolproof, but a lot better.
Tiny Hut: Not so much. You're more comfortable and vaguely hidden by an opaque sphere, but that's about it. This is usually not a dungeon camping spell.
Magnificent Mansion: The ultimate dungeon or otherwise camping spell. However, it's a 7th level spell. At 13th level you have all kinds of fun options. You could do it lower with a scroll as an emergency escape if needed. Hope you also have a scroll of planeshift to get back to the prime because if you exit out the door there's no telling what you'll walk into.
Or just ban the spell, or the part that includes an extradimensional space.It is. It's also basically useless until 8th level (when the casters can rest long enough to regain spells.
It's also GMs of the Thou Shalt Not Rest in Dungeons school keep nerfing it or giving advise about how to make it too dangerous to use.
The ban hammer should be used sparingly.
As written the spell is far from foolproof. There's still a rope hanging out of the air, for example. It's better than pitching a tent, but still has limits.
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Most often the push to camp in dungeons comes from nova-casters who burn throughh their spells like there is no tomorrow, instead of playing more convervative and trying to plan over more then one encounter.
I had one player who was notorious for it. He was always casting top-down from his highest spell slots + once possible a quickened spell EVERY round. In every fight. And then wanting to rest or withdraw after two fights at the max to rememorise spells.
15 minute adventuring day par excellence.
This behavior of couse skeweres class balance when classes that have to budget their resources over several encounters (mostly spellcasters) will all blow it in one or two fights, compared to those that are slower but with much less "fuel use". This contributes massively to the claim that spellcasters are so much more powerful than martials.
As it's written, there's nothing that stops you from pulling the rope inside unless you've absolutely filled up the space.Or just ban the spell, or the part that includes an extradimensional space.It is. It's also basically useless until 8th level (when the casters can rest long enough to regain spells.
It's also GMs of the Thou Shalt Not Rest in Dungeons school keep nerfing it or giving advise about how to make it too dangerous to use.The ban hammer should be used sparingly.
As written the spell is far from foolproof. There's still a rope hanging out of the air, for example. It's better than pitching a tent, but still has limits.
Note the bold below. By my reasoning there's a minimum of 5 feet of rope sticking out. Pulling it in definitely qualifies as either removed and/or hidden.
Though I don't like the hidden part. Also, what exactly qualifies as "hidden" is up to interoperation.
ROPE TRICK
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (powdered corn and a twisted loop of parchment)
Range touch
Target one touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the usual multiverse of extradimensional spaces. Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). The rope cannot be removed or hidden. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.
Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by-5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can't see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.
The Hypertext d20 SRD:
"...Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space...."
They nerfed it! I did not realize it changed since 3.5.
/cevah
It is. It's also basically useless until 8th level (when the casters can rest long enough to regain spells.
It's also GMs of the Thou Shalt Not Rest in Dungeons school keep nerfing it or giving advise about how to make it too dangerous to use.5th level if you have extend spell. (you'll need a 3rd level spell slot)
4th level if you have a lesser rod of extend spell (3000 GP).
Rings of Sustenance reduce sleeping time to 2 hours and are affordable before 8th level. Your rope is probably less likely to be discovered if you use it for a shorter time.
I've had one group of characters sleep in a dungeon. A level 1 group consisting of a life oracle, bard, summoner, and a paladin among other things. When we slept everyone was out of resources. I was out of channels and spells, the bard was out of performance and spells, the summoner's eidolon was at -2 HP, the paladin was not dead (FOE) but he was knocked out. Why didn't we camp out of the dungeon? We couldn't, the door closed behind us when we entered and we were looking for another way out.
Thank the gods the dungeon had doors we could close because when we woke up more elementals were banging on one of the doors to break it down.
"...Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space...."They nerfed it! I did not realize it changed since 3.5.
/cevah
I'd be fine with the rope counting as a creature if you pulled it in. I'm just not sure which version the spell is the correct one. DM option I guess.
I still run my games where the rope can be withdrawn into it. So nyah! Paizo!
I tend to think that if you, as a player, over extend yourself in a dungeon such that you need to rest in the dungeon you deserve what you get.
Seriously if you enter an enemy fortress/dungeon/tower/temple and think you can attack some of them and then rest right there without patrols looking for you or creatures moving about their business coming across you and finding you then you deserve to die as your character is too stupid to live.
I see many folks saying the GM should take character rests into account. I counter this with PLAYERS should take character rest into account and act accordingly. Use hit and run tactics on the enemy to draw some of them out and thin their numbers before entering. Have a fallback location outside the lair already planned before entering the dungeon so you can get there quickly when you need to rest.
SAVE some resources for the trip out/the evening so if your found you can fight.
Smart adventurers live. Dumb ones use up all their resources and then camp in the dungeon.