So recently after 5 months of playing table top rpg's I have had my first character die. It was due to a stupid in character move that I made and it ended up killing my gunslinger. I was really invested in the character and I hated giving him up.
I refused to just put a new name on my sheet and I made a new character.... She died not 4 hours into playing her. After this I was devastated I had just lost 2 characters, one of such I had spent so much time on and the other I had designed specificly not to die.
So I ask you.... How do you deal with a characters death. It felt horrible to see a good persona just die like that and it felt just as bad to see a fresh slate shatter.
Generally I just move on to the next character.
I actually kind of like dying if it's in a fair way.
I normally simply go on - death is something which belongs to the game and which makes it intressting.
If you really want to get a character back, there is always the option that the other players resurrect him or that he can make a barging with a mighty outsider (which then creates a whole new twist/plot for the character).
Always keep in mind that PF is a world where gods are real, the afterlive is real, so you will meet other people there and can talk to them (even have adventures there "Death is just the beginning")
Usually my players get a reincarnate (3+) or a raise dead (5+).
I normally simply go on - death is something which belongs to the game and which makes it intressting.
If you really want to get a character back, there is always the option that the other players resurrect him or that he can make a barging with a mighty outsider (which then creates a whole new twist/plot for the character).
Always keep in mind that PF is a world where gods are real, the afterlive is real, so you will meet other people there and can talk to them (even have adventures there "Death is just the beginning")
That actually sounds intressting.... Best thing about it is my DM may allow it. I'll talk it over with him if I have another unfortunately end.
You know, now that i think about it, i've never actually had a character i was playing die. they've all exclusively died when i couldn't make the session... though i don't get to play as a player nearly ever.
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Its tough I wont lie. I just lost a character I was really enjoying playing. Whats worse is the other players have the means to raise the character but refuse under the guise of it being too dangerous. (In game item ability can raise dead once a month but alerts evil beings to its presence) What makes me more upset is they really just want to loot the body. So its been more difficult for me than usual.
Unless I take over a well known NPC, it takes time for me to get into a new character. Given a little bit of time I can eventually mold my new PC into another character I enjoy playing. Hang in there you'll get over it soon.
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I know it is not the case here, but i love dying when it is done "right". When my CG, "i want everyone to be happy"-bard died, it really motivated the party.
Before that, the BBEG (who killed my char) was just some evil dude who had some sort of world domination plan, but when he in cold blood killed the most innocent and "good" person (who was begging for mercy), it got personal. Especially our Paladin freaked out, "he might not follow the rules as i do, but his intentions were of unrelenting good" and eventually smote down in the final session, after re-specing to Oath of Vengance.
Sure, i loved the char, but his death created more RP than i ever could have, had he survived. Personal motivations makes for a much better campaign.
The groups I play with use Hero Points. You can still die while using them, but it usually takes a pretty bad run of luck or repeated bad decisions. We also generally allow Raise Dead and other magic to bring back the dead if the player so desires (and the PC can afford it)
Some folks actually enjoy PC death since it lets them play more new and different characters. They can still keep the revolving door going with Hero Points by simply spending them on bold and daring maneuvers likely to end in PC death. The more conservative folks can be bold when they've got some Hero Points and back off a little when they don't.
I've already burned through two characters during book one of our Runelords campaign (we're still in the middle of book two) and I fully expect my current mystic theurge to die at some not-so-distant point.
I particularly enjoyed my last character (a cleric of Iomedae) so having her die was kinda annoying. However, she found a fitting end, saving an unconscious partymember by taking his dangerous place in a battle which ultimately lead to her death.
But yeah, as the others have said, character death is part of the game and without it as a permanent threat, combat would be boring.
If it happens, just move on. No use dwelling on it, really. Having favorite characters is nice but every new character has the potential to become an even bigger favorite. Also, I enjoy building characters so I usually have a bunch of them ready to jump into action if need be.
@derpidruid:
I understand where you're coming from. Losing a character, one you care about and/or have put alot of work into, can be a bitter experience. It doesn't have to be, but it can.
I advice that you make sure to remember the duality of the game. On one hand, it is an around-the-table storytelling-experience, a book read to you by a friend, and you get to be one of the heroes. On the other hand, it is a game, it is a dice-base, chance driven game - like playing a boardgame with your friends, where the goal is to overcome challenges on the board, while having fun with the others.
This duality is why we have rules, but also have rule 0. It is why the GM can bend of break or create whatever he wants, but everybody else still plays by the same rules. Your character may die, but it is all a part of the game. A challenge happened and it overcame you, rather than you overcoming it. Bad luck of the dice? Maybe you accidentally stacked the cards against you while roleplaying? In the end, the reason why it happened can be just as important as the fact that it happened, but it is still just another part of the game. Every time your character picks up a gold-piece, someone else's character gets the axe in another game somewhere, because the risk helps make the game fun. It is why we have dice, and why we introduce chance as well as skill, rather than just participate in a mutually told story.
The best thing for yourself, in my opinion, is to understand that this is what makes the game satisfying, and learn to love it. Appreciate the risk your character takes, and see how the dangers of the world helps to shape it, make it come alive. How the risk, not just to your own character, but the other characters, and the threat of hurt or worse, becomes a vehicle for good roleplay and creativity.
Maybe the party shouldn't try to jump this gap. why? because it could hurt or someone could die. Maybe the party should find another way, or come up with a way to make it less risky? Or remove the risk alltogether? The risk becomes just another vehicle for the story - and if someone does get hurt, or someone does die, it is sad to see the character go, but that too then becomes a way to enrich the experience, not just for the others, who have just witnessed their friend die trying to jump the gap, but to the character who then takes his place, when you talk around the campfire and the friend that was lost is brought up.
I know this is getting ranty, and it's probably really unhelpful, but I cannot give more sage advice than this. Learn to love to win. Learn to love to lose. Be attached to your characters, but never so much that you cannot be attached to the next one. Roleplay and rollplay, have fun - with all of it - and the death of your characters will be just another enjoyable chapter in a long saga of heroes and villains, chancing it in a fantastic world.
-Nearyn
Be attached to your characters, but never so much that you cannot be attached to the next one. Roleplay and rollplay, have fun - with all of it - and the death of your characters will be just another enjoyable chapter in a long saga of heroes and villains, chancing it in a fantastic world.
I like that; it's quite lovely. :)
And I'm chiming in along similar lines to everyone else. I haven't had my own character die yet (only playing for about a year), but others in the party have lost some fairly loveable characters, including one a week and a half ago that even the GM was sad to see go. It's hard (I was on the edge of tears writing the final entry in the dead character's research notes), but losing a character can be what makes a story great, and drives the others on to greater things.
And you DEFINITELY don't want the alternative, which is that death isn't a risk because you so overpower the encounters you're facing. We ended up at that point at the end of our last campaign, and beating the final encounter before the BBEG even got to act was the most profoundly unsatisfying thing imaginable.
That ghost great wyrm red dragon BBEG meant practically nothing to our group; the group of goblins that killed Lanliss a week and a half ago will be stamped on our minds forever. Same with the cursed pool that took out our wizard with phantasmal killer. Or the banshee type creature that dropped our fighter and ranger. It's tough to see characters go, but without that risk, the stories we create really do lose their power.
And, like Tryn said, Pathfinder is a setting where, in the words of Dumbledore, "death is but the next great adventure". :)
With how restrictive my GMs are, character death is usually an upgrade...
We are allowed to make someone equal to the party in level (we all are at the same level) with WBL.
So, new PC with gear picked for build... yeah.
Often lose in gear overall, but get to optimize more.
Dying doesn't suck.
Well I have to say Nearyn you have some great advice on this subject. I did end up with a new character that I like, maybe even more than my last. Who would have known that cloase the dwarven inquisiter of lamashtu, would be more fun to RP than strika the half elf gunslinger or even kaybe the human invulnerable rager!
I suppose being still a little wet behind the ears with the game means that while death should be avoided, its an opportunity to try new and exiting things.
My first pc death in PF was during the final fight in one APs first book. So it was the fight taking us from 3 to 4. The party payed for a raise dead and restoration, draining the party coffers dry. We never really recovered from that.
That taught me to not do that again and rather build a new pc. It sux but hey, most bad guys stay dead, too.
At higher levels when the party can cast the spells themselves and the components are more affordable it might be different.
Well I have to say Nearyn you have some great advice on this subject. I did end up with a new character that I like, maybe even more than my last. Who would have known that cloase the dwarven inquisiter of lamashtu, would be more fun to RP than strika the half elf gunslinger or even kaybe the human invulnerable rager!
I suppose being still a little wet behind the ears with the game means that while death should be avoided, its an opportunity to try new and exiting things.
It's also a way to learn more about how to avoid it happening in the future, or at least to save it for when it makes a really good story. :)
My first pc death in PF was during the final fight in one APs first book. So it was the fight taking us from 3 to 4. The party payed for a raise dead and restoration, draining the party coffers dry. We never really recovered from that.
That taught me to not do that again and rather build a new pc. It sux but hey, most bad guys stay dead, too.At higher levels when the party can cast the spells themselves and the components are more affordable it might be different.
Valid point. It's freakin expensive, even at higher levels...
We debate raising people even at level 6, 7,8...
The problem with raise dead is not only the cost but also the two negative levels. You can't heal more than one negaive level per WEEK without greater restoration, so even if you pay for raise dead + 2 restorations, your character will be at one negative level for a whole week. Unless your campaign allows for such a break, you'll have to go on with a permanent penalty for some time. Depending on the class and role of your character, it might just make him more likely to die again.
Costs tends to mostly be a problem if the GM for some inexplicable reason is using WBL beyond character creation. At the level where raise dead spells become available, acquiring finances is usually not a question of "can I do it?", but "How fast can I do it?".
-Nearyn
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My first pc death in PF was during the final fight in one APs first book. So it was the fight taking us from 3 to 4. The party payed for a raise dead and restoration, draining the party coffers dry. We never really recovered from that.
A GM should have a general eye on the WBL of the party. If one very justified action reduces it significantly, like here, he should drop some more loot to get the party back on track.
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Well;
raise them.
reincarnate them.
bury them.
ascend them.
I am in the group of "if they did something stupid in character" then they met a good death. I don't get hung up on pieces of papers with numbers on them much. Maybe because I've been playing now for almost 40 years. One death is a tragedy. Twenty is a statistic.
Now if the GM is being a behind and intentionally making everything a character does a "life or death" decision... screw that, find another GM. But that doesn't sound like the case here.
Again, if it was an honest part of the adventure and you just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time... well played.
Costs tends to mostly be a problem if the GM for some inexplicable reason is using WBL beyond character creation.
"Some inexplicable reason," in this case, being "making sure that the game is balanced enough to be fun"?
WBL ties directly into party capacity; too much money and you overpower ostensibly appropriate foes, while too little means they roflstomp you, and neither are generally considered "fun."
But, of course, some of the things that factor into WBL are things like consumables and spell component costs. Just as your first two PP in PFS generally should go for an emergency CLW wand, so in a home game, should the party budget some of the money they've been getting for an emergency reserve diamond. And the GM should make sure to be giving the party more than WBL because of the inevitable loss to consumables. A 9th level character should "have" about 46,000 gp to be balanced against 9th level encounters, but this probably means she should have received 50,000 gp or more over the adventuring career and spent some of it on wands, potions, spells, and whatnot.
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Its tough I wont lie. I just lost a character I was really enjoying playing. Whats worse is the other players have the means to raise the character but refuse under the guise of it being too dangerous. (In game item ability can raise dead once a month but alerts evil beings to its presence) What makes me more upset is they really just want to loot the body. So its been more difficult for me than usual.
Unless I take over a well known NPC, it takes time for me to get into a new character. Given a little bit of time I can eventually mold my new PC into another character I enjoy playing. Hang in there you'll get over it soon.
That is what it is there for. They are being stupid. Edit: they are refusing to aid you...that is like killing you them selves. I don't see how the npcs would allow this. they think they can succeed with out your character, probably one of the most useful members on the expedition? Now I'm getting upset about it lol.
Anyway OP, at around level 5 you can afford to be brought back to life. Others have mentioned it, but really it is great for most stories to keep the same PCs.
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That is what it is there for. They are being stupid. Edit: they are refusing to aid you...that is like killing you them selves. I don't see how the npcs would allow this.Its tough I wont lie. I just lost a character I was really enjoying playing. Whats worse is the other players have the means to raise the character but refuse under the guise of it being too dangerous. (In game item ability can raise dead once a month but alerts evil beings to its presence) What makes me more upset is they really just want to loot the body. So its been more difficult for me than usual.
Unless I take over a well known NPC, it takes time for me to get into a new character. Given a little bit of time I can eventually mold my new PC into another character I enjoy playing. Hang in there you'll get over it soon.
I agree. I looked to the GM for a voice of reason but he wants to stay out and make it a party decision. Also, one of group just joined so he is taking a back seat because he doesn't know the group well. I'm not thrilled especially since I'm not sure what to make for a replacement character. This group is not working well together and at times working against each other. This is a rare experience for me usually its not this difficult. Sorry for the derail folks.
@Orfamay Quest: Since this is off topic for the thread, I'll say my piece briefly and then suggest we leave it at that. After all, there's no need to derail. What follows is my opinion:
WBL has little impact on the balance, unless the GM lets it have impact, and following it does nothing whatsoever to make the game fun.
Looking at the WBL-table is useful for getting an idea of what amount of gear a certain encounter might be designed around, and I use it when my table introduces a character above level 1, but outside of that it detracts from games, rather than add.
A GM who adheres to the WBL table artificially narrows the scope of what the player characters can do. Following WBL also limits agency, and encourages players to not seek out adventure, and take no initiative on their own.
At my tables, if the characters suspect they need gear they don't have, they get to make efforts to acquire it, WBL be damned.
If the characters are undergeared, I'm not gonna drop the items in their lap because WBL told me so, - they get to have agency, they get to make decisions that matter. They get to be the ones who decide to take a trip to the Janderhoff archives of subteranean cartography, and chart a course to the legendary treasure of Zatarax. Items are not going to fall off a cart for them, nor is the next random encounter spontaneously gonna fart CMW potions.
If the characters are overgeared, then what do I care? I'm the GM, they're never gonna win an arms-race against me, even if that was an issue. I can add items to creatures with the snap of my fingers, WBL does NOTHING to upset the balance of the game unless I let it. And if, for some reason, my campaign hinges on the group NOT having that +4 greatclub (which I'd chalk up to bad campaign-writing, not bad GMing) I can make efforts to take it away. Thieves, robberies, enemies with sunder, diplomatic encounters with someone important who wants the wizard's headband of intelligence in return for helping the party. It is SO easy. SO so easy.
If my players decide to take the adventure in a new direction all of a sudden, and rob a coinhouse in Magnimar, you can be damned sure I'm not even thinking of looking at the WBL table. Because I don't care, and it doesn't matter. No way are they gonna beat in the faces of 12 Abadar cleric/fighters standing guard, crack the vault and then find 2060 gp in there, because the WBL table told me that is how much they were off their recommended wealth. That vault is gonna explode in showers of gold, art, gems and exotic items, magical and mundane, and my players get to feel like criminal masterminds and complete badasses for just pulling an Ocean's Eleven.
WBL is utterly useless outside of eyeballing encounters and creating characters above level 1. I prefer my players have agency, and get encouraged to forge their own paths, take their own initiative, rather than just mindlessly chasing the nearest breadcrumb-trail, because whatever they need, is just gonna fall out of the sky anyway.
Let me reiterate that this is just my opinion. Anyway Orfamay Quest - that is why I find it inexplicable that a GM should elect to use WBL. In case a party-member needs raising you go out there and you get him raised. You don't sit there with your hands up your arse, because some weird pseudo-mechanics of the game won't let you earn a buck. :)
-Nearyn
I'm actually a fan of Raise Dead and similar magic. My Kingmaker PC actually took the Ultimate Mercy and helped fallen PCs get back into action cheap more than once. In fact, the DM in that campaign kind of suggested that I take the feat since he was worried about killing off PCs. My PC was very durable and never needed such help. In fact, serving as the "anchor" to prevent a TPK was a big part of his role, and he was the last PC standing at least twice. In another campaign long ago a PC of mine died, and when he came back later on I had him research a new spell for breathing fire and claim that he learned it from one of his ancestors in Hell.
As a DM I generally discourage replacement PCs by making them come in a level lower than the PC they're replacing. This makes Raise Dead and similar options less of a bad choice in mechanical terms, and when less emotionally attached players when people talk with bravado about how they like a challenge and want death to be a real threat I figure that making death a worse deal overall actually helps fulfill that goal they're striving for. If replacement PCs are basically a power up that takes some of the sting out of death. If death is always a downgrade I think that puts a little extra zest on it. Do remember that we use Hero Points, so these deaths don't tend to happen easily though since new PCs start with just 1 Hero Point they're also somewhat more vulnerable until they gain a level or two.
@Pan - What level is your party? Are other methods of returning from the dead restricted?
Costs tends to mostly be a problem if the GM for some inexplicable reason is using WBL beyond character creation.
Surely that should be 'a problem if the GM isn't using WBL'? If the GM is using WBL, then extra money will be provided until you're back on track.
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Costs tends to mostly be a problem if the GM for some inexplicable reason is using WBL beyond character creation.Surely that should be 'a problem if the GM isn't using WBL'? If the GM is using WBL, then extra money will be provided until you're back on track.
I refer you to my explanation of my position, 2 posts up :)
-Nearyn
In one campaign I played in, there was a player who made four consecutive characters who were designed to be self-sufficient survivors, and each one died after only a couple of sessions. When he finally made a "normal" character, he was able to RP it in such a way that he endeared himself to the party. Although he played a relatively less powerful character (kobold fighter), he survived and thrived for the rest of the campaign - remaining a strong contributor through 18th level. Its a funny thing about the game. Characters built around teamwork tend to live longer, and its not purely an issue of mechanics.
Sometimes though, the dice do not favor you. Combine that with a risk you took or a tactical error, and you end up with a dead character. It sucks, but you either make a new one or the your party brings you back to life.