PaizoCon Spoilers

[Marco Massoudi]

Erik Mona wrote:

Kevin Mack wrote:

Really hope it is set elsewhere in Cheliax and seperate from hell's rebels

It is. Both APs take place during the same general rebellion in Cheliax, but they do not deal with the same location. Hell's Rebels is all about the city of Kintargo. Hell's Vengeance doesn't go there at all.

Thank you for the info Eric.

That is good news.
But i ask myself how interesting is it if it takes place within Cheliax?
So i guess it doesn´t stay within the (old) borders... ;-)

Is the "Rusty Dragon Inn" Pathfinder Battles set 45 or 51 minis?

Is the "Bar Case Incentive" the building with walls or is it made up of different pieces like the shown counter and rack?
If so how many squares is it gonna be?

Thx for your answers on the limited free time you have. :-)

[Dragon78]

They have the product description up for B5 and some other interesting products.

[Malwing]

Erik Mona wrote:

Kevin Mack wrote:

Really hope it is set elsewhere in Cheliax and seperate from hell's rebels

It is. Both APs take place during the same general rebellion in Cheliax, but they do not deal with the same location. Hell's Rebels is all about the city of Kintargo. Hell's Vengeance doesn't go there at all.

Imagine two groups playing both adventure paths in the same room with pvp action.

I'll call it 'Path Fighters'

[Skeld]

Zaister wrote:

Skeld wrote:

I'm not very interested in Cheliax or evil campaigns, so I'm looking at at least a year's worth of APs I'm not excited about. :|

We've all been there probably. For me, for example, it was the year with Carrion Crown and Jade Regent.

I wasn't crazy about those either. Right now, Giantslayer is just kinda blah, so the prospect of two more upcoming campaigns that aren't my thing is disappointing. I hope there's something good on the far side of a year's worth of Hell's Whatever.

I guess this is nature's way of making up for the awesomeness that was SS, RoW, WotR, MM, & IG. That was a good run for me.

-Skeld

[Dragon78]

Yeah an entire year of hell's whatever is a little much. I hope the next year's second AP will something really awesome.

[Rednal]

Well, there is the Legendary Planet AP that's set to be crowdfunded... next month, I think? If the Hell's stuff isn't what you're interested in, you could try taking a look at that?

[baron arem heshvaun]

Set wrote:

seems more playable than CE followers of 'Guggie (break all the things!)

We are calling Rovagug 'Guggie now?

Ok. I'll roll with it.

[Nate Z]

According to Wes's tumbler he'll be writing part one of Hell's Rebellion.

[Milo v3]

Erik Mona wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Edit: Sarusan is likely not getting an AP for ages... None of the developers care for it, which as an Australian I find rather disappointing.

This is not the case at all. I have never heard anyone at Paizo suggest they don't care for Sarusan. The real reason we haven't done much with it yet is that is so far from Avistan and it is meant to be deliberately mysterious, at least for the time being.

I asked James Jacobs in his thread about it a while ago, he said that none of you guys really care for it in the same extent you care for other areas. Not that you guys don't like it, but don't care for it if that makes sense, like... none of you guys have it as one of the areas you guys are specifically interested in + that it is meant to be deliberately mysterious, so there are currently no plans for it.

Which is why I said for ages, since you guys will probably "eventually" have stuff on it, but that's because other areas are getting attention and you guys can only do so much at any one time.

[Ciaran Barnes]

DrSwordopolis wrote:

Entirely new base class. Has 2 modes, so you can be "Lawful Neutral by day and Chaotic Neutral by night. Scant few other details.

I've been watching the Daredevil TV show, and that is sounding very... Dardevily.

[The 8th Dwarf]

Sarusan is a difficult prospect how do you balance a pre and post colonial Oceania/Australasia. Most Australian/NewZealand players want a colonial/post colonial with major threads of the indigenous past woven through, it's what most of us understand and relate to... Americans all ready have thier own story's of genocide, land theft and indigenous exploitation as part of thier history and if they tackle that in a Sarusan product they will have to be very careful on that edge.

On the other hand if it's pre colonial, than interest is limited, not because Oceanic/Australasian cultures aren't fascinating it's because are hard to shoehorn a faraway often misunderstood region into the U.S./Europe/Med/Near East analog focused campaign.

So far I have yet to find and RPG setting that does the region justice..... White Wolf came close, Shadowrun was a joke, TMNT down under was good for the animals.

I use Alkenstar as my post colonial Australia analog... Settled by the poor, the radical, the unwanted, survivors with that hard edge. It's harsh, dry and full of mutant things that want to kill you.

I think that would be the best you get.

If you have the Alkenstar Light Horse (mounted musket/riflemen) fighting Gnoll Raiders, while, version of Ned Kelly is holding up a whole town, as a 50' horned death spitter lizard has decided that the main road is the best place to sun it's self so traffic is backed up as nobody wants to go walkabout through the wastes to find a quick way around. Then you have Australia.

[Milo v3]

I would have to be pre-colonial given the current fluff assigned to Sarusan. I'm relatively sure no one has survived travelling to it, and it's inhabited by serpentfolk. So I'm getting a more primative dream-time feel to it's flavour rather than the invasion.

[Kain Darkwind]

Dragon78 wrote:

The fact we got an evil campaign before we got a dragon themed, fey/first world, dwarf themed, distant worlds, Arcadia, dark tapestry, Southern Garund, dinosaur/megafauna, lovecraftian, Vudra, Linnorm Kings, Azlanti/aboleth, Sarusan, under the sea, or a real Tian Xia AP is disappointing.

Really? Disappointing? One of them has to come first. Ignoring the fact that nearly a third of these have been done and another third have been featured as key elements if not the theme of other APs, if you considered 'under the sea' to be the least desirable of those you mentioned...

"The fact we got an under the sea campaign before we got a dragon themed, fey/first world, dwarf themed, distant worlds, Arcadia, dark tapestry, Southern Garund, dinosaur/megafauna, lovecraftian, Vudra, Linnorm Kings, Azlanti/aboleth, Sarusan, or a real Tian Xia AP is disappointing."

Spreading it on a little thick.

I've always found the execution of the AP to matter far far more than the subject matter.

[Skeld]

I'm more put-off by the fact that we have two APs with similar-ish subject matter released back-to-back. That's like immediately following Wrath of the Righteous with Wrath of the Corrupt or Rise of the Runelords with Revenge of the Runelords and so on.

-Skeld

[Zhangar]

huh. Though now I'm intrigued at the prospect of a Devils Revisited written with the prospect of those guys being your allies.

[Cthulhudrew]

Zhangar wrote:

huh. Though now I'm intrigued at the prospect of a Devils Revisited written with the prospect of those guys being your allies.

On the other end of the spectrum, all those stats for Angels, Agathions, and other like-minded good creatures won't be entirely wasted (save for the addition of possession or templates making them evil creatures to be fought).

[John Kretzer]

You know I think people are jumping to conclusions here that just because the Hell's Vengeance AP is a evil AP means it will be about evil vs good. They are a lot of evil elements among the Cheliax rebels...it could very well be a eveil vs evil type of AP.

[xevious573]

It kinda seems like a waste of it being an Evil campaign if most of your foes are also evil...

[Kalindlara]

xevious573 wrote:

It kinda seems like a waste of being an Evil campaign if most of your foes are also evil...

That was my thought as well. Really hoping for Andoran, as they come off (PFS aside) as both aggressively Good and a bit smug and self-righteous.

Plus, I have a bunch of Eagle Knight minis that could use the exercise. ^_^

[brad2411]

I think that Evil vs evil would be just as common on golarion as good vs evil. Evil soceities don't normally work together unless there goals are the same. Way of the Wicked is evil vs good because good had won the wars of good vs evil. Golarion is a much darker place then the setting of way of the wicked.

[xevious573]

I'm not saying Evil wouldn't fight Evil in Golarion - there is plenty of examples of that in the fluff such as Lamashtu vs. Pazazu, Nocticula's (somewhat suspicious) tendency of assassinating other Demon Lords, and Qlippoth hatred of Demons and Daemons. What I'm saying is that if I want to fight evil, there will be 17 other Paizo APs I could play instead when Hell's Vengence comes out and most APs after will likely focus on fighting evil as well. Let me fight the self-righteous Good Guys instead dang it.

[brad2411]

xevious573 wrote:

I'm not saying Evil wouldn't fight Evil in Golarion - there is plenty of examples of that in the fluff such as Lamashtu vs. Pazazu, Nocticula's (somewhat suspicious) tendency of assassinating other Demon Lords, and Qlippoth hatred of Demons and Daemons. What I'm saying is that if I want to fight evil, there will be 17 other Paizo APs I could play instead when Hell's Vengence comes out and most APs after will likely focus on fighting evil as well. Let me fight the Self-Righteous Good Guys instead dang it.

Ok I totally get that and I hope that it is against good guys too. From what has been said I am thinking it will be, agents of house thrune raising back to power in a stronger way. Part of that would be fighting good factions that are trying to subvert house throne but I am also thinking it will be against other evil factions in the country too.

[xevious573]

Sure. Some evil enemies will likely appear in Hell's Vengeance but a sprinkling of evil enemies in a campaign otherwise fighting against good is different then an Evil vs. Evil AP which was suggested by John Kretzer above. I don't mind Evil vs. Evil, in fact I'm engaged in that in both the Carrion Crown campaign I play in and the uh.. we'll call it the Council of Thieves campaign (for lack of a better name) that I play in. But give me an excuse to fight the Good Guys please. That's all I'm asking for in an Evil AP.

[John Kretzer]

xevious573 wrote:

Sure. Some evil enemies will likely appear in Hell's Vengeance but a sprinkling of evil enemies in a campaign otherwise fighting against good is different then an Evil vs. Evil AP which was suggested by John Kretzer above. I don't mind Evil vs. Evil, in fact I'm engaged in that in both the Carrion Crown campaign I play in and the uh.. we'll call it the Council of Thieves campaign (for lack of a better name) that I play in. But give me an excuse to fight the Good Guys please. That's all I'm asking for in an Evil AP.

All I was doing is putting out a possibility. I don't mind a Evil AP...all though I don't consider Self-Righteous to be Good Guys (well at least not for long anyway). Besides I hoping that the main bad guys in this AP will be Galt backed rebels...really want to be able to deal with those people without the morale weight of good holding me back.

[wraithstrike]

Many players don't realize how powerful the higher level good outsiders are. If I run this for anyone who has never played in WotW, it will be a nice surprise most likely.

[xevious573]

My statements about Self-Righteousness is myself merely getting into the spirit of an evil character. ;)

[Cthulhudrew]

It's been said elsewhere about the Hell's Rebels AP that the Kintargo revolution is just one of many such uprisings taking place across Cheliax, and Hell's Vengeance looks like it will be another such, just taking place from the perspective of those who are seeking to maintain the status quo, rather than overthrow it (and Erik Mona posted something to support that idea earlier today as well).

So, for instance, if the PCs in Hell's Rebels are overthrowing the House of Thrune in Kintargo, then perhaps the PCs in Hell's Vengeance will be fighting an uprising in another city of the realm, or maybe even- given the recent Andoran book- reclaiming a portion of Andoran that slipped from the Empire's grasp in recent years (such as Augustana); that would certainly fit with the notion of "Vengeance."

[John Kretzer]

xevious573 wrote:

My statementa about Self-Righteousness is myself merely getting into the spirit of an evil character. ;)

I Figured.

[Dragon78]

It would be a waste for an evil campaign to not be fighting good guys. Since I am not interested in this AP, I still want to get something I want from it and I want new good aligned creatures. I would love more good celestials, fey, giants, magical beast, and lesser dragons. But more then those I would like to see an actual good aligned ooze and some good aligned constructs, aberrations, plants, elementals, and undead.

[Kalindlara]

There won't be good-aligned undead - the Creative Director is very firm about that.

I wouldn't hold my breath for elementals or oozes either. Still... who knows? ^_^

[brad2411]

Kalindlara wrote:

There won't be good-aligned undead - the Creative Director is very firm about that.

I wouldn't hold my breath for elementals or oozes either. Still... who knows? ^_^

I could see an elemental being good as there at one point was good elementals (and probably still is), but I just can't see a good aligned ooze.

[Kalindlara]

Remember that not all oozes are mindless. The id ooze and immortal ichor are relatively intelligent, as I recall. ^_^

[Dragon78]

If the ooze is intelligent then it can be good aligned. We have evil ones so why not good ones.

I would like to see one good aligned corporeal undead maybe a 0HD race to cover that niche as well.

[Milo v3]

Holy Water Elementals could be funny... but they'd be very boring.

[Squeakmaan]

As something of a Hell fan-boy (Woo Wes is writing!) I am pretty much completely stoked. Thank goodness I have a real job now so I can actually buy these AP's

[Dragon78]

Wasn't there supposed to be a seminar or something that would tell more about the new/future products?

[Nate Z]

Dragon78 wrote:

Wasn't there supposed to be a seminar or something that would tell more about the new/future products?

I know, right?! This thread is called "Paizocon SPOILERS"! Someone give us something already!

;)
:P

[BigDTBone]

Dragon78 wrote:

Wasn't there supposed to be a seminar or something that would tell more about the new/future products?

That was the banquet. All the spoilers that got released on Saturday night were them.

[Justin Franklin]

BigDTBone wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

Wasn't there supposed to be a seminar or something that would tell more about the new/future products?

That was the banquet. All the spoilers that got released on Saturday night were them.

Actually there was a AP seminar on Sunday, no one has posted anything from that yet.

[Dragon78]

Actually there was another event on Sunday that talked about new products that was I think from 2-4pm or around that time.

[atheral]

Comparing the amount of info that came out of last year's paizocon vs this year's. I'm beginning to think that everyone who went to that seminar signed an NDA before leaving.

[Garrett Guillotte]

BigDTBone wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

Wasn't there supposed to be a seminar or something that would tell more about the new/future products?

That was the banquet. All the spoilers that got released on Saturday night were them.

There was also an AP-specific seminar that had more details (which I didn't attend), the Design Workshop (which, unlike last year, was not under NDA... because the playtest is coming out in a couple weeks anyway) which covered more of the preliminary mechanics about the Vigilante and discussed UI a little more, and the Future of the Pathfinder RPG panel that was less about the APs and UI and covered stuff about B5, Player Companion and Campaign Setting books that weren't announced at the banquet.

atheral wrote:

Comparing the amount of info that came out of last year's paizocon vs this year's. I'm beginning to think that everyone who went to that seminar signed an NDA before leaving.

It's probably still quiet because it's still going on, unlike last year. I'm on the train back home; a lot of people are either en route home now or still playing and going to seminars.

I know the thread has spoilers in the name but still:

Sunday Design Workshop news, all of which may already be out of date as the class is under active development and the point of the Workshop was to get feedback on early concepts:

Vigilante would have a 3/4 BAB base, 6 + Int skill ranks/level. You have a social persona (ie. Bruce Wayne) who, with time and effort, can turn into their vigilante persona (ie. Batman) with a different alignment one step from their social persona's alignment. (Higher-level abilities allow you to flip personas faster, ie. Superman's phone booth, but with a potential disadvantage for rushing the switch.)

The social persona gains social benefits in places where they spend more time (a level of improved attitude was mentioned); at the same time, you're spreading rumors about the vigilante persona that make it more fearsome to the same neighborhood. Think Peter Parker selling photos of Spider-man, or Clark Kent writing about Superman. The scope of this effect increases with level, so you might be famous in Hell's Kitchen at low levels and across an entire city district or city at high levels. Might be class abilities that let you move this effect around temporarily.

Class abilities can help convert or spoof skills in the personas to avoid forcing you to spread skill ranks around too much. You shouldn't have to split ranks in Bluff to maintain your social personal with ranks in Acrobatics to run around rooftops.

The personas are mechanically different people. Bruce Wayne ceases to exist when he's Batman, even to scrying and such effects. The exception is if you already know or can somehow detect the connection between the personas. There were discussions but nothing final about abilities to defend against this, like being able to clone your social persona while going vigilante or getting a +20 to Bluff or Disguise checks against attempts to expose the connection. The class is designed on the assumption that your adventuring party knows your secret identity, but that's not required (which should make for some interesting RP).

The four specializations differentiate and flavor the vigilante different ways. You could go all Captain Andoran or Aldori Zorro as a costumed fighting vigilante, or Wiscrani Batman as a rogue-like vigilante, or a secret inquisitor-ish divine vigilante, or a secret mystic arcane vigilante. They didn't rule out psychic vigilantes, it's just too early in the process since OA isn't officially out. And yes, this is theoretically the magical girl/sentai class.

Vigilantes aren't limited to Good alignments—all of those could be Evil (upstanding citizen in public, brutal enforcer or thief or serial killer in private). At the same time, this isn't limited to the superhero/supervillain class. You could pull a Henry Jones/Indiana Jones duality, or expand how you model werecreatures, perhaps archetypes for several competing personalities.

Lots of jokes that the iconic vigilante will be one of the existing iconics in a costume, but that obviously won't be the case, right? *wink*

Future of Pathfinder RPG news: Bestiary 5 will be about 15% psychic monsters. You'll also see some whole new outsider races, like a new Neutral Evil race of fallen psychopomps who are tired of shepherding souls to the Boneyard. Traditional stuff like thought eaters will get the Golarion treatment. Proper conspiracy-theory aliens (grays, annunaki as alien astronauts), maybe some feathered dinosaurs, dream dragons. Not much empyreal/demon lords. Hindu-inspired manasaputra celestials. Some new 0 HD races, including a sasquatch and a new dark folk type. Corresponding pawn box is likely but not announced yet.

Ultimate Intrigue is to social classes what Ultimate Magic was to casters and Ultimate Combat to martials. Social combat rules build on the Pathfinder Cards product. Heist rules to run party-splitting stealth-and-theft missions—someone breaks in, someone distracts a guard, someone cracks the safe, etc. Influence rules for things like reputations. Expanded long-distance chase mechanics. Verbal dueling, which sounds less like RP-replacement and more like modeling how an audience reacts to your sick burns and affects the effectiveness of the target's responses. New gear, new spells, new feats for social situations. More ways to spy on people and on things, but at the same time new tools to prevent those things from happening. We get frustrated as GMs when PCs cast scrying or clairvoyance. New low-level spells can block or screw with that.

Adventure Card Game will get monthly class deck releases, and there'll be a 3-month break between base sets going forward. That gap extends somewhat to the PFS Guild. Druid deck in October, Barbarian in November, plans for other classes ongoing.

The Pathfinder Cards line is officially on hiatus.

No new Pawns announcements, recapped the previous announcements through the Summon Monster Pawn Collection.

Inner Sea Races is following the Inner Sea Gods model of giving lots of background and collating and expanding on a lot of content scattered across previous releases. Lots of ethnicities as well, including what it means to be Varisian, Garundi, etc., which can potentially extend to non-humans of those ethnicities. New racial weapons, feats, and a big heritage appendix that lets you go through it and pick races, bonuses. There's a new range of feats that allow your races to play off each other, so an all-elf party might get a specific benefit, or a party of all different races, etc. Hobgoblins are covered.

Recap but no new news on Inner Sea Monster Codex. Hell Unleashed focuses on denizens of Hell—not just devils, but also asuras, hellknights, more Book of the Damned details, and an infernal duke statted along with content on his role in Hell.

Occult Bestiary gets psychic monsters that needed Golarion-specific flavor.

Distant Shores covers six cities outside of the Inner Sea region, including the hobgoblin capital of Hongol in Tian Xia, and cities in Arcadia, Casmaron, Vudra, Iblydos.

Occult Realms in October, contextualizing the occult in Golarion.

Monster Summoner's Handbook expands your options for summoned monsters, but also expands the monster summoning tables for the first time with the appropriate class feature or feats. Opens the door for more classes to summon.

Nothing new on Dirty Tactics Toolbox, Heroes of the Streets, Occult Origins, Black Markets.

Weapon Master's Handbook delves into making yourself a master of martial combat. How to pick up a sword and become the greatest ever; the master fighter. Includes a system to modify and create your own weapons. Anything out there in a game you've seen, now you can play with it.

Modules: Nic Logue's Feast of Dust covers

Spoiler:

Thuvia, divs, and the Four Horsemen.

Brandon Hodge's House on Hook Street also serves as a guide for running occult adventures, defining what "occult" means in a fantasy setting, like unseen paths, intricate conspiracies within conspiracies, etc.

Tales: Mentioned Lord of Runes, Wes Schneider's Bloodbound.

Comics: Dynamite liked the Paizo-written scripts so much that they want more. Hardcovers will keep coming out as long as the regular comic releases sell. Regular comics will continue to have RPG bonus content.

Also, this year they posted things almost immediately to the store, so... not much of this is exclusive. Even the books that weren't announced at the banquet are already on the store.

Another difference is that this year's con is about six weeks earlier than last year's. In July, the GenCon stuff was pretty well set. This year there'll be more GenCon-exclusive announcements.

[BigDTBone]

All I can say, is I hope we get a new official stat block for Blackjack.

[Dragon78]

Hopefully more rules for gambling and magical dice, cards, coins, and other gabling related items.

So were getting some kind of 0HD sasquatch like race?

Was one of those new darkfolk a 0HD race?

[Garrett Guillotte]

Also, someone with Know Direction attended a lot of these panels (I saw Ryan Costello and Alex Augunas at a few) and are posting or will post recordings. My post was just from my notes, and in the case of the Design Workshop from memory, so I've likely left out or misheard a few things.

[Garrett Guillotte]

Dragon78 wrote:

Was one of those new darkfolk a 0HD race?

Yeah, if it wasn't clear, the new dark folk type is a playable 0 HD race. No details past that.

[Aratrok]

Quote:

The scope of this effect increases with level, so you might be famous in Hell's Kitchen at low levels and across an entire city district or city at high levels. Might be class abilities that let you move this effect around temporarily.

That gives me pause for concern that the scope on this class is going to be too small. First level being a district is fine- but by the high end of this you should be known to the world or the multiverse. That'd be like if Superman was only known in Metropolis.

[Elrawien Lantherion]

I wonder if they would ever do an AP that took place before the death of Aroden?

[VM mercenario]

Aratrok wrote:

Quote:

The scope of this effect increases with level, so you might be famous in Hell's Kitchen at low levels and across an entire city district or city at high levels. Might be class abilities that let you move this effect around temporarily.

That gives me pause for concern that the scope on this class is going to be too small. First level being a district is fine- but by the high end of this you should be known to the world or the multiverse. That'd be like if Superman was only known in Metropolis.

That is what playtests are for. Hopefully we get Mark Seifter on charge of the playtest, I liked him on the Kineticist playtest.

[Nate Z]

The vigilante sounds more and more awesome. Much more pumped for this than Occult Adventures. So glad I don't have to wait a year! :D

Also pleasantly surprised to hear about new races in B5. For some reason I assumed there wouldn't be any.

Thanks so much for sharing, Garrett Guilotte! :)