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So this question comes up every now and again, and I usually bat it away with the, "the supporting cast is always far more interesting than the hero," argument. However, when someone is adamant about being the hero what are your ideas and tips for the character?
I tend to offer the following:
1) Decide what type of hero you want to be. There are two major types of heroes: Cynical and Idealistic. This isn't evil and good, but instead revolves around the world-view of the hero.
Cynical heroes look for the bad in the world, then cut it out of their world with all of the malice it deserves. These heroes are surprised by acts of kindness, and typically think that such things are foolish to some degree or another. A Paladin can be a cynical hero, he can have faith in his god, himself and other paladins, but he might believe that the world is irredeemably rotten. For the cynical hero, this adversity only strengthens his resolve.
Idealistic heroes look for the good in the world, then protect it with their lives. The focus isn't entirely on destroying evil, but instead adopting the world-view that everyone could get along in theory. These guys tend to be the ones who bring people together into the fold, but they also tend to be the ones stabbed in the back if there isn't a cynical character watching their back.
2) Decide on the class. The hero isn't a wimpy wizard, he is the one at the forefront! He faces evil head-on in some major way.
Paladins are amazingly resilient at higher levels. Adding CHA to all saves can give them insane saves with a cloak of resistance +5 at higher levels. For the guy who is supposed to be the one making speeches, this is fantastic! He might be boring, but he is also the one who holds the line.
Eldrich Knights (or Magi) can make for wonderful Heroes. They can fight in melee, they can be the ones breaching places, but most importantly: they can survive. While this can overlap with Paladins in the case of the (Pal 2/Sorc 6/EK10) build it is not particularly typical. This character can be just as boring.
Fighters are the token heroes beyond Paladins. They are good at one thing: fighting—it is their element.— For this reason they want to be the ones being targeted by the opposition if things go down. Most importantly they don't step on any of the major roles of the other characters: fighters don't understand magic, they value the abilities of a cleric but can't replicate it in any fashion, and they are nowhere near as skilled or clever as a rogue. They realize they are the big-dumb muscle—in the idealist hero's position he might not even realize how stupid his ideas are—, and because of that they are more likely to revel in it while supporting their arguably more important allies.
3) Stat for your role. The hero tends to be the one who squares off with Big-Bad at the end of the story.
If Billy McDeath is going to fight anyone it probably isn't going to be the wizard since he can counter the magic with an anti-magic field. He isn't going to fight a Cleric for more or less the same reason. The sneaky character isn't going to be much help when he'll survive the first sneak attack and rip him to shreds. The hero needs to be able to go toe to toe with Billy McDeath, because he is the least dangerous of all of them in some ways, but at the same time he is also the hardest to hard-counter. It can seem ludicrous, but if the hero has blind-fight nothing short of having the villain's AC up to insane levels is going to save him from the hero's steady damage. If the hero is of a race that can gain Pounce, he becomes even more scary. Being that guy whose job is to hit it until it dies, then keep hitting it for good measure tends to mean you can fight at relatively max effectiveness until you die or win. With a little help from McCasty—your wizard—an anti-magic field cast on the hero can turn him from being the prey of casters to the bane thereof. If he has racial SR, he is the single most frightening thing a spellcaster not built to break SR can encounter.
4) Don't try to be god. God is boring, and like Orcus, he is sitting on his throne waiting for you to come to him. Come on, you're the hero! You suck. It is one of those steadfast rules of being the hero when you're not the only character—unless you're reading about a Mary Sue, at which point this rule does not apply.— If you look at Luke Skywalker, Frodo Baggins or Haru from The Cat Returns, you'll notice that they all are pretty boring in some major ways. Frodo is able to carry the Ring of Power to Mount Doom because of how much he sucks. It is only after his tale that he realizes he cannot go back to his old life and develops the ambition to go with Gandalf. You're the hero, you are literally the least important person there, so be happy that you convinced some old bugger, some better than thou priest and an untrustworthy skulk to come along with you. Those insidious villains might actually throw a logic puzzle at you, and, well, you're the hero: you're an idiot. There might be some riddle that requires some sort of religious lore or divine intervention—or maybe you decided the best way to keep someone from hurting the other people was to sheath their sword in your body—and that is what the smelly old preacher is for: because you're about the smashy smashy and letting god sort things out. Then, finally, there might be a trap that you can't do anything about because when some Indiana Jones stuff starts happening you're not particularly fast in that armor.
Overall the hero can be insanely fun to play. You accept that everyone else is more important than you in some big ways, but they have to accept that without you they would be the ones finding out if they could survive an axe to the skull. Don't worry, though, you can take that axe to your cranium, you weren't using it for anything as the wizard always points out, mainly because you're the hero.
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My tip is that every PC is a hero, but there is no "THE hero" any more than there is in Game of Thrones. And heroes are just people who manage to cross over into the extraordinary; you don't build a hero, you just become one. Heroes were always just people first.
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I am unsure whether you are boxing yourself into too few categories with that first one. Just having two colors does not necessarily go well, and you might want to mix it up even if the tone of the campaign is slightly different.
The idealistic comic relief can keep things from getting grimdark and monotonous, and when he breaks down that gives a special gravity to the scene. Similarly, having a cynical old hat in with a group of squeaky clean paladins means he can introduce the 'easy answer' when there are moral choices. He can present a reasonable temptation that must be avoided if you are to stick to your ideals. So overall, this shows how it might due well to try to think of how your character compares and contrasts with the setting, the party, and the other characters. With nice reference points, it makes all of the characters more distinct.
I think that another good place to start with a hero would be to define the scope of their goals and motivations (or at least the ones that got them into adventuring). Nuanced motivations work well to color the experience. With this, I might put it into personal, domestic, local, institutional, national/regional, global (and beyond). And obviously, a character very well should have number of motivations, some of different scales. But this isn't pokemon- you aren't trying to catch'em all- just get a few that work well with what you are trying to do.
A.) With personal, it is rather simple, but not necessarily bad. "I want to be famous", "I want to live the good life", "knocking heads in for a living isn't so bad" etc. This doesn't necessarily mean you are selfish, since it could be "Oy, are three guys ganging up on an old man? That pisses me off, I'd better teach them a lesson." With this, motivations are more about the immediate situation the character finds himself in. Typically not big on large philosophies, and more focused on general guidelines for life. This can suit well with many campaign styles- just know how your character reacts to problems, and plop him in there.
B.) Domestic. Worrying about your immediate friends and family. This could mean caring for a party member, worrying about saving a kidnapped sister, or simply trying to make money to send back home to feed the wife and kids. This works well when used to take a new character out of the familiar- maybe chasing slave traders half way across the country to find their child, or finding the 6 fingered man that killed your father. It can also be used for professionals that simply do not know any other way of life.
C.) Local carries similar tones to domestic, but it is more encompassing of the whole town and the neighbors there in. Be it the local guard keeping the streets clean, or the somewhat dubious rogue keeping rival gangs out of his territory, this focuses on threats coming into their domain. Particularly good for urban campaigns with a lot of time in one city.
D.) Institutional is more about a character that wishes to establish or maintain an group. This could be someone that wishes to merchant corporation or a shipping vessel, or it could be an inquisitor trying to smoke out moles in his church. It also encompasses the knight sworn to a king that might have underhanded opponents in the court. Often, this kind of motivation is about a set of ideals/principles/doctrine, or a way of life. This tends to be rather campaign dependent. The end goal is to either build or preserve the power of their group.
E.) National takes the ideals above, and brings them on a larger scale. It is the pinnacle of a soldier that goes to war so that a foreign aggressor never comes onto their doorsteps. This works best with couples with some of the more personal or domestic motivations. A desire to gain a name through glory in battle, or defending their city. It is all about rationalizing those goals so they are concurrent with the ones set up by the powers in charge of the nation.
F.) Global and beyond- this often deals with ideals in the broadest strokes. While it includes such things as "world domination", it is better seen in a paladin's quest to strike down fiends, or a druid's attempt to keep nature in balance. It often comes down to the core belief system of the character, and how they are working to make their world into such an ideal. It drives crusaders to mendev, and demonic cults into sacrifices. It is also the lawful sherif trying to take down criminals, or the criminal who does not believe in authority that has never believed in him.
My tip is that every PC is a hero, but there is no "THE hero" any more than there is in Game of Thrones.
There are 0 hero's in Game of Thrones. They have only villains and survivors.
I'm uh...glad you got my point?
That is somthing to decide among the players. If they Can agree that one is the hero and the others are the folks among her it is great. But one player can not decide that this Will be her role.
The heroes are the ones who run toward danger instead of away from it. That is always the PCs in our games.
Who is the Hero in "The Avengers"...?
Iron Man, because he pushed the missile into the portal?
Black Widow/Captain America, because s/he stayed near the civilians to defend them?
Thor, because he distracted Loki and disarmed him of the staff?
Hulk, because he smashed more of the alien skywhales?
(Not Hawkeye. That dummy ran out of arrows.)
Was it Nick Fury, because he called them all in?
Or was it Coulson because he died [NOT!] to bring them all together?
Insisting on being "the" hero *IS* kind of douchey when you think about all of the others' efforts.
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There are lots of sorts of heroes. Sure, you've got your martial types like Achilles who are strong, nigh-invulnerable and good looking, but there are also Guile heroes like Odysseus who think and trick their way around problems.
A character can be a hero because of their refusal to accept defeat, their inspiring leadership, their obvious virtue, their fighting ability, their wits or any number of other qualities. Some heroes have one quality, some several.
My tip is that every PC is a hero, but there is no "THE hero" any more than there is in Game of Thrones.There are 0 hero's in Game of Thrones. They have only villains and survivors.
I see you're point. I would however contend that Jon Snow and Daenarys Targaeryon are heroes in the context of Game of Thrones.
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One of my favorite quotes: "Frank, do you know what a hero is? Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, he's somebody who's tired enough and cold enough and hungry enough not to give a damn." (Hawkeye from M*A*S*H {TV show, not movie})
The Hero, for those who don't know, the "hero" is a common trope.
Heroic characters can be in any role, but the hero is more specific.
Anyone can be a hero.
When I think of "The Hero", I tend to think of "The Mario". The character who is adequate at almost anything, but not really the best at any one thing either. I'm not sure who most embodies this in Pathfinder.
Maybe everyone is "the hero." In real life, everybody sees the story as being about them, why not in your fantasy game?
Nope. Not the hero.
Well, there are some parts I disagree with, but I think you're going for a specific type of trope for "The Hero" as an archetype, rather than "The Protagonist." I love seeing The Hero every so often, but a lot of people are bad at playing the specific role or even having the desire to fill those shoes. People really like being anti-heroes and super flawed, damaged goods type characters. Which is fine, but it's refreshing to see someone who doesn't have DARK BACKGROUND or whose backstory consists of I used to be baaaaad, but now I'm goooood in a baaaad way.
Ever since running Eberron though, I've started out new players with the idea that their character isn't the fastest, they aren't the strongest, or the smartest, or the wisest, or the trickiest, or the best at anything. They are, in most circumstances, adequate or barely above adequate. But what makes a party of PCs so important and so different is luck, courage, and resolve. You might have to wrestle with someone who is bigger than you, or try to outwit someone ten times more cunning, but the attempt and the gumption and the audacity of trying where others might walk away or give up, say "It's impossible!" is what sets the PCs apart. Knowing that catastrophic failure is right around the corner but doing it anyway, and somehow making it out alive while others would get torn apart; that's what I think makes the PCs "heroes."
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Perhaps you should define what you're talking about?
It doesn't sound like The Mario, because that's more like a bard than the fighter you're talking about.
Do you mean a Vanilla Protagonist?
I'm not really sure why anyone would ask to play one of those. They're usually written with little characterization in order to make them more relatable to the audience, but in a tabletop RPG that's not a factor - you can design a character to be relatable to you. If you're looking to play off of an otherwise bizarre party it seems more productive to set up some kind of straight man / reluctant hero, and that's not what your post is advising.
If The Hero is the party leader/chosen one/guy who drives the main plot, the player need to talk with the group about it because not everyone wants their PC to be a "support character." And these characters come from many class types, not just fighters.
Your recommendation of fighting classes is very odd considering that you use Frodo as an example of "The Hero." Frodo is probably the least capable combatant in the entire fellowship - even Sam the Gardener severely wounds Shelob, and Merry and Pippin have actual battlefield experience. Bilbo was a bit more of a warrior but he was primarily sneaky and clever. A rogue, not a fighter class. There are plenty of books with wizard heroes, and some with priest-like heroes (Garth Nix's Abhorsen series comes to mind).
Frodo is able to carry the Ring of Power to Mount Doom because of how much he sucks. It is only after his tale that he realizes he cannot go back to his old life and develops the ambition to go with Gandalf.
Frodo (and other hobbits) aren't resistant to the ring because they suck, but because they have humble desires, which Tolkien presents as a very positive trait. See the excellent scene in the books where the ring tries to tempt Sam with the world's biggest garden, and Sam rejects it because he couldn't personally tend a garden that big. Note Bilbo has the same virtues and is one of the more competent characters in the Hobbit. Second, going with Gandalf to the Undying Lands wasn't an ambition, it was retirement.
You're the hero, you are literally the least important person there, so be happy that you convinced some old bugger, some better than thou priest and an untrustworthy skulk to come along with you.
I have no idea what "The Hero" trope is characterized by being the least important person in the party. The farm boy off to save the world? That doesn't seem in line with your post.
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The Hero, for those who don't know, the "hero" is a common trope.
Heroic characters can be in any role, but the hero is more specific.Anyone can be a hero.
Being "The Hero", the heroic protagonist of a fantasy story, or the TVTropes specific trope, is indeed specific, but it's not specific to the stuff you mentioned in the first post.
A spell caster who avoids melee combat, for example, can absolutely fit the mold pretty readily.
Look, guys, this is the stuff I give people who say, "I wanna be da Heero!"
I tell them to look at the basic tropes.
From there they go their own direction. This thread is literally about giving the good advice that enables people to first play something generic, then move into more refined tastes.
This thread is not about arguing rhetoric about what X or Y means.
Most of the time players who ask questions about how to be the hero are not gods of min-maxing or even veteran Pathfinders, if they were they'd just make a strong build, a strong character and then run with it.
Simple advice for simple people. We're not here to, if you'll humor the analogue, argue calculus when teaching basic algerbra.
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Look, guys, this is the stuff I give people who say, "I wanna be da Heero!"
I tell them to look at the basic tropes.
From there they go their own direction. This thread is literally about giving the good advice that enables people to first play something generic, then move into more refined tastes.This thread is not about arguing rhetoric about what X or Y means.
Most of the time players who ask questions about how to be the hero are not gods of min-maxing or even veteran Pathfinders, if they were they'd just make a strong build, a strong character and then run with it.
Simple advice for simple people. We're not here to, if you'll humor the analogue, argue calculus when teaching basic algerbra.
You never said anything remotely like this earlier in the thread. So people can hardly be blamed for not reading your mind.
Also, to follow the analogy, if that's your goal, then you're advocating teaching basic algebra wrong. A martial character is usually a best first character, yes, but that doesn't make it better suited to the role of 'The Hero' than a Sorcerer (perhaps the best spell caster to start people on).
And Anti-Magic Field is a terrible idea for most martial characters, especially melee ones. Indeed, most of Point #3 is bad advice beyond the very first line (which is potentially solid). Point #4 is potentially valid, but terribly phrased (Frodo wasn't the hero 'because he sucked' but because he was hard to notice...the two are very different things, just as one example of that bad phrasing).
That leaves us with only point #1 that's actually good advice. Which it is, for new and inexperienced players.
Easy answer.
If you want to be a 'hero' Do HEROIC things. Have a motivation. Keep to a heroic code. Don't be the murderhobo and fight for something bigger then yourself. Don't do it just for the money... do it because it's right!
That's how you be a Hero. Anything else is just the protagonist, and PC SHOULD be the protagonists of their games.
Easy answer.
If you want to be a 'hero' Do HEROIC things. Have a motivation. Keep to a heroic code. Don't be the murderhobo and fight for something bigger then yourself. Don't do it just for the money... do it because it's right!
That's how you be a Hero. Anything else is just the protagonist, and PC SHOULD be the protagonists of their games.
Or if you do do it for the money and not because it is right, necessarily, then at least have a reason to get money other than 'to be a more efficient murder hobo'.
Anyway, there are a lot of motivations for heroes other than 'what is right'. Often, doing the right thing is an occupational hazard of being the guy that is powerful enough to solve problems.
So look for the man that killed your father. Try to become a champion of war. Start your own noble house. Amass enough riches to hustle out the other gangs that compete for your city.
In the end, if you work among the rich and powerful, there will be lots of opportunities to face off against the evil and corrupt. The man that killed your father may be a famous serial killer. Defeating enemies in war means you save the lives of your country's soldiers. Being a noble means you are responsible for the people in your domain. Taking out the competing gangs in the city can lead to peace since there are no more violent feuds over territory.
Just try not to be a jerk and you will end up being the 'hero' in the people's eyes.
Yeah. The problem is that "The hero" is defined by the averages of his world. If the hero is from a world of mostly mages then he is a mage. The same for ninjas and witches.
I guess what we should be asking is "What is the average of pathfinder"?
Average bab
4th-6th level spell caster
Medium armor
At least a few good weapon profs.
2 good saves
4 skill points
Yeah. The problem is that "The hero" is defined by the averages of his world. If the hero is from a world of mostly mages then he is a mage. The same for ninjas and witches.
I guess what we should be asking is "What is the average of pathfinder"?
Average bab
4th-6th level spell caster
Medium armor
At least a few good weapon profs.
2 good saves
4 skill points
I would hardly call that average at all.
Average would be a level 1-2 commoner. That is how it would be in most worlds. Well, maybe some more experts, depending on the education level.
And even among adventurers, it would still largely be fighters and rogues, for the most part, it would seem. Maybe a fair number of cavaliers, rangers, and barbarians. Spell casting is something 'special'- most small towns would not have casters capable of doing more than 2nd level spells, but they have at least a few guys decent in a fight.
Heroes are supposed to be extraordinary in some fashion. While that could be in the form of magic in a world of warriors, it could simply be cunning and determination (in the vein of greek heroes) or due to faith (medieval heroes like Arthurian tales).
If we really want to break down what it means to be a hero- the hero is someone the best exemplifies the ideals of the society. While this could be martial prowess, and that is often at least a bit of a requirement for the things they face, it is typically more of a mental
Fancy powers are just there to high light the traits of their moral character, and allow them to believably face against the impossible odds. For example- Hercules could cut off the Hydra's heads. Fine, that is a necessary basis of fighting it. But it was his ingenuity that realized that cauterizing the stumps would stop the regrowth of heads. And Greeks loved their clever heroes.
No. "The Hero" is average for an adventurer. Not average for the common person.
And the average adventurer in Pathfinder is fairly magical. In Pathfinder, magic is far from special or rare. To take your Hercules example, the average adventure character in a Hercules story is somewhere between a god and a monster.
No. "The Hero" is average for an adventurer. Not average for the common person.
And the average adventurer in Pathfinder is fairly magical. In Pathfinder, magic is far from special or rare. To take your Hercules example, the average adventure character in a Hercules story is somewhere between a god and a monster.
The average player controlled adventurer.
Don't let the ratio of pure martial classes to caster/gish classes fool you- those don't give proper statistics of how many people actually use that particular class.
For every party that is off 1 shotting dragons, there are 50 to 500 doing things like clearing out goblin nests or extermination basic skeletons and zombies.
Of course, I hardly have proper statistics either. Still, I think it is hard to believe that there are enough casters so that every in setting party has a nice fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric type ratio.
My tip is that every PC is a hero, but there is no "THE hero" any more than there is in Game of Thrones.There are 0 hero's in Game of Thrones. They have only villains and survivors.
There are suvivors in Game of Thrones?^^
There are suvivors in Game of Thrones?^^My tip is that every PC is a hero, but there is no "THE hero" any more than there is in Game of Thrones.There are 0 hero's in Game of Thrones. They have only villains and survivors.
For another couple of episodes at least.
There are suvivors in Game of Thrones?^^My tip is that every PC is a hero, but there is no "THE hero" any more than there is in Game of Thrones.There are 0 hero's in Game of Thrones. They have only villains and survivors.
Out of the 6 "Important" characters in the Stark family, 2 have died.
For the Lannisters, 2 out of 7(including Cercei's children).
There are definitely survivors. It just isn't guaranteed that any particular character will survive.
The average player controlled adventurer.No. "The Hero" is average for an adventurer. Not average for the common person.
And the average adventurer in Pathfinder is fairly magical. In Pathfinder, magic is far from special or rare. To take your Hercules example, the average adventure character in a Hercules story is somewhere between a god and a monster.
Exactly. "The hero" is a main character and is thus an average of the main characters. His relation to non-main characters is irrelevant.
For example, Lion-O is the average of his group of Thundercats. Not the average of his entire world. Although really the 80s is a horrible place to find this trope. Most 80s versions are simply better than anyone at everything.
The average player controlled adventurer.No. "The Hero" is average for an adventurer. Not average for the common person.
And the average adventurer in Pathfinder is fairly magical. In Pathfinder, magic is far from special or rare. To take your Hercules example, the average adventure character in a Hercules story is somewhere between a god and a monster.
Exactly. "The hero" is a main character and is thus an average of the main characters. His relation to non-main characters is irrelevant.
For example, Lion-O is the average of his group of Thundercats. Not the average of his entire world. Although really the 80s is a horrible place to find this trope. Most 80s versions are simply better than anyone at everything.
Oh...oh....OOOHHHHH
I think I have misundestood what this was all about. This was like....the hero class of RPG video games? The one that is the jack of all trades that rounds off all the party roles? The one that would be able to equip swords and armor, and cast both fire ball and heal spells? And would be teamed up with a fighter, priest, and wizard?
oooooohhhhhhhhhhhh........Didn't realize we were going off more Dragon Quest-y logic in this argument.
oooooohhhhhhhhhhhh........Didn't realize we were going off more Dragon Quest-y logic in this argument.
That's what I was assuming and arguing, but I suppose I may be the only one using that definition.
Interestingly, Dragon Quest was one of the first to break this trope. In Dragon Quest 2, the main hero is just the strong guy. The guy who would typically be "The hero" was second string.
Anyway, going off that logic, inquisitor somewhat seems best. Healing, melee/archery, some swift action spells for pain, various useful spells, great skill points...etc.. etc. Easily exemplifies the 'I always have something worth doing' logic of the hero class.
Better than bards for this role, since there is more about making yourself the star instead of support, and you face less circumstances that invalidate your spells (such as creatures immune to mind affecting, which ruins a lot of enchantments). Much more likely to end up as the 'second string.
Alchemists might be able to pull some weight in this regard- buffs, some slight utility spells, but mostly the large stat boost from mutagens and the ability to do debuffs in a dramatic style with bombs. Maybe go grenadier, so you are more 'valiant soldier with ingenuity' rather than 'creepy mad scientist vomiting insect swarms and growing tumors'. That way, you can just grab a sword, cover it in fire, and then be ready to throw a bomb against the simple touch AC.
It is hard to get this more 'average' than those, since the game is more about investing in one area, and often get too much flavor for your typical vanilla hero.
I think bard, especially the archaeologist, may also be a good fit.