I believe Hasbro will be the downfall of D&D.


4th Edition

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Big corporations are the bane of RPG's and Hasbro is no exception.

I believe D&D would be better off in the hands of a smaller company who does not see D&D as a mega money maker but as a table top game that may not earn you billions, will earn you a nice profit while giving gamers the game they want. I see Hasbro as the kind of company that would break that antique piggy bank in order to get to the money inside. I could see them getting frustrated because D&D didn't meet their crazy goals and shelving it.

What get's me is a company like Hasbro and WoTC can't seem to walk and chew gum at the same time.


*looks to my Heroscape figures*

A least these guys will have company. I've always liked Golarion over Forgotten Realms and Eberron, but, it really is the truth. I don't think they will ever shelve D&D, but they WILL run it into the ground with the same efficiency as EA has done with some of my favorite game series.

*looks to Dungeon Keeper*


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I agree, if only some smaller company would come along and expand on a previous edition, run by smart people, and then steal Hasbro's thunder....

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Forever Slayer wrote:

Big corporations are the bane of RPG's and Hasbro is no exception.

You should take a look at your history. TSR itself would have been the downfall of D+D if it had not been bought out by WOTC. Hasbro had no interest in D+D when they in turn bought out WOTC. They bought the company for Magic and D+D pretty much came along with the package.


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captain yesterday wrote:
I agree, if only some smaller company would come along and expand on a previous edition, run by smart people, and then steal Hasbro's thunder....

Yeah, that would be crazy! Where could we find a group like that?


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Maybe that crazy company that bought Dungeon and Dragon magazines, those guys are crazy enough to try anything:-D

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:
Maybe that crazy company that bought Dungeon and Dragon magazines, those guys are crazy enough to try anything:-D

Paizo didn't buy those two magazines, they were licensed to publish them by WOTC. WOTC took back the licenses and turned Dragon and Dungeon into web only features.

Since then, Paizo has not been in the magazine buisness at all, and just about all of the remaining paper RPG magazines have left the market, the latest casualty being Kobold Quest.


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You know what I meant:-)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When one is looking for blame for the near downfall of a game, aside from TSR's own infighting, one has to remember that when an entire market shrinks by 80 percent, you're going to have a lot of casualties as a result.


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Forever Slayer wrote:
Big corporations are the bane of RPG's and Hasbro is no exception.

Why? By all accounts 5E is doing exceedingly well. 4E did exceedingly well at first go, and many believe 3E sold extremely well too. So if by "Bane" you mean making lots of profit, then......sure?

Forever Slayer wrote:
I believe D&D would be better off in the hands of a smaller company who does not see D&D as a mega money maker but as a table top game that may not earn you billions, will earn you a nice profit while giving gamers the game they want.

They did, back in 2000. It's called the OGL. Your welcome.

Forever Slayer wrote:

I see Hasbro as the kind of company that would break that antique piggy bank in order to get to the money inside. I could see them getting frustrated because D&D didn't meet their crazy goals and shelving it.

What get's me is a company like Hasbro and WoTC can't seem to walk and chew gum at the same time.

I see Hasbro as the kind of company that would continue to work on a brand to make it larger than it has. I see Hasbro as a company that wants to make it more interesting to people who might not ever have gamed before. I see Hasbro as a company that wants to do more with the brand other than basically sit on it for coppers a day. I see Hasbro as a company that wants to branch into other spheres of the entertainment industry so that we can enjoy D&D-ish things in addition to just the TTRPG side of it.

To me those are all great things to strive for. They've hit some set backs, yes but I think they're learning.

Liberty's Edge

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LazarX wrote:
Forever Slayer wrote:

Big corporations are the bane of RPG's and Hasbro is no exception.

You should take a look at your history. TSR itself would have been the downfall of D+D if it had not been bought out by WOTC. Hasbro had no interest in D+D when they in turn bought out WOTC. They bought the company for Magic and D+D pretty much came along with the package.

Yep. Petey wanted to cash out. Blame him for Hasbro. But, had he not started WotC (and published M:TG) and made a ton of money, TSR was over. WotC pretty much kept TTRPGs relevant. Just be thankful Lisa and her crew, Pramas, Wolfgang, and a gang of others who were rejuvenated by the popularity of 3x, were there to carry the torch when WotC sold out and bean counters took over the decision making from the talent.

I can't say this enough. In the greater land, TTRPG is about as relevant as Nixon, other than as a source of imaginative people to make TV shows and stuff. It isn't a fad anymore. It's an aging hobby that gets smaller every generation. Not enough bells and whistles. Actually requires, to be done in its full glory, people to gather in one place and not look at their phones for four to six hours. It requires algebra homework level math to keep your character up to snuff. It's is full of opinionated a~$$~$*s with social issues. It has a lot going against it if you're looking for it to be what TSR had in the Eighties. Like, TSR competed with maybe fifteen channels and Atari, Paizo is a relatively small, but successful in its niche company that OWNS what is left of the TTRPG market, and thus can survive and expand. And they're competing against a company that doesn't really care about the TTRPG market (I'm sure the creative talent does, but the money men like money). Otherwise, their "competition" is either too unstable to matter (Shadowrun), niche (Traveller, whatever Hero edition they're on, GURPS), or not even playing the game (D&D). It looks like everything is hunky-dory if you're a Paizo fan, but, apparently you're too busy looking at the water gurgling from the ground to notice you're an oasis in a wasteland, market-wise.

Hasbro knows the name "Dungeons and Dragons" is FAR more valuable than the actual game. They don't give a crap about the game. They want to keep building the brand in the video game market. Any D&D video game will dwarf Paizo's sales. It's a video game. They don't need the game to carry the name and make money.

Liberty's Edge

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Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

Grand Lodge

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houstonderek wrote:

Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

True, but then again the perceptions are those of people who generally have no interest in participating in paper and dice games, so it doesn't affect things inside our "bubble" that much.


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Not disagreeing with Houstonderek, but I would like to point out that if Hasbro is planning to make bank on video games they're delusional, that market is even more brutally cut throat then RPGs, with a lot more initial investment required (which they have) and then you're going up against games like Skyrim, Halo, Dragon's Age, etc. If they think they can crank out a video game and watch the profits roll in, heads will roll instead :-)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Nah. All they have to do is release a turn based Baldur's Gate rehash and it will sell like hot cakes.
They don't have to compete with Skyrim, Elder Scrolls, or the Witcher.
They know this. Houstonderek is right; the DnD brand is easy money.


Kryzbyn wrote:

Nah. All they have to do is release a turn based Baldur's Gate rehash and it will sell like hot cakes.

They don't have to compete with Skyrim, Elder Scrolls, or the Witcher.
They know this. Houstonderek is right; the DnD brand is easy money.

Like Sword Coast Legends?

Shadow Lodge

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houstonderek wrote:

Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

That is NOT true. People know that Pathfinder is an SUV.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kryzbyn wrote:

Nah. All they have to do is release a turn based Baldur's Gate rehash and it will sell like hot cakes.

They don't have to compete with Skyrim, Elder Scrolls, or the Witcher.
They know this. Houstonderek is right; the DnD brand is easy money.

They were smarter than most here would give them credit for. They gave the license to Perfect World and Cryptic Studios and let THEM do the work in creating the newest incarnation of Neverwinter. Which seems to be one of the few FTP games that's making money. I suspect a good deal of the reason for the success is the Foundry system, also used on Star Trek Online, and Champions Online which allows players to make adventures with real rewards for playing.

Interestingly enough, Neverwinter may well keep the spirit of 4th Edition going on for a long time to come.

Shadow Lodge

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captain yesterday wrote:
Not disagreeing with Houstonderek, but I would like to point out that if Hasbro is planning to make bank on video games they're delusional, that market is even more brutally cut throat then RPGs, with a lot more initial investment required (which they have) and then you're going up against games like Skyrim, Halo, Dragon's Age, etc. If they think they can crank out a video game and watch the profits roll in, heads will roll instead :-)

Very true. Except D&D games are an established brand, with a history of games that range from pretty good to great. And WotC doesn't make the games itself, it licenses them out. So D&D games DO essentially equal pure profit for Hasbro.

Scarab Sages

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Kthulhu wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

That is NOT true. People know that Pathfinder is an SUV.

...and a bad Karl Urban movie

Liberty's Edge

The fact that the games are tied to the same setting as the one D&D branded print product (the novel line) that actually is fairly popular outside of the gaming realm makes selling the video games to casual PC and console gamers that much easier as well. Hasbro knows what they're doing, and what they're doing is making money.

I wish they let WotC have more autonomy in the TTRPG market, but I think the bean counters are just ceding that to Paizo. I really dig what the talent came out with this time, and I am a little sad it won't get full on Paizo level support. But, Hasbro isn't a gaming company, they're a game and toy company. If I like what they put out, I'll spend a few bucks (5e), if they don't, I won't (4e). Either way, I'm not going to lament the state of the hobby. It had a good run and let some people live a dream and get paid to game, but it's pretty much going to keep becoming more niche until the only people playing are future hipsters enjoying a "bespoke, hand crafted" gaming experience.


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houstonderek wrote:


Yep. Petey wanted to cash out. Blame him for Hasbro. But, had he not started WotC (and published M:TG) and made a ton of money, TSR was over. WotC pretty much kept TTRPGs relevant. Just be thankful Lisa and her crew, Pramas, Wolfgang, and a gang of others who were rejuvenated by the popularity of 3x, were there to carry the torch when WotC sold out and bean counters took over the decision making from the talent.

Let's not simply blame Peter for wanting to "cash out". Selling to Hasbro enabled quite a few people who invested a lot into WotC to get the payback they deserved.

Grand Lodge

You're right in the fact that Hasbro is more attached to the brand name of Dungeons & Dragons than the actual TTRPG. The licensing they've been doing whether electronic, board game, card game, dice building game, attack wing franchise, is the money maker for them. Sure, they want to keep the RPG stuff going and they are with 5e but Hasbro doesn't really understand their markets versus the market profitability. They have MtG and they are just starting to understand how to tune that product (i.e. the big changes to the sets being published this year and forward). They kill Kaijudo because they didn't understand that CCG niche. They keep the TTRPG business going so they have a viable brand to market with everything else.

If they hadn't moved on to 5e, then 4e would have been the death of the Dungeons and Dragons franchise. houstonderek is correct that Hasbro is a game and toy company. It has really shown that in the past few years. And especially when they didn't understand their WotC products.

I don't think Hasbro will be the downfall of D&D anymore ... I think they turned the corner with 5e. The Sundering did absolutely nothing to help them out. They needed to bring back their 3.5 crowd. Now if they can continue selling and producing without drowning the market like WotC did with 3.5e, we'll have to see.


Hasbro won't be the downfall of the D&D brand itself, but I won't be shocked in the slightest if Hasbro screws over 5E like they did 4E, since the TTRPG doesn't really matter to Hasbro.

As has already been noted, there's not enough money in the TTRPG market.

Liberty's Edge

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Bill Dunn wrote:
houstonderek wrote:


Yep. Petey wanted to cash out. Blame him for Hasbro. But, had he not started WotC (and published M:TG) and made a ton of money, TSR was over. WotC pretty much kept TTRPGs relevant. Just be thankful Lisa and her crew, Pramas, Wolfgang, and a gang of others who were rejuvenated by the popularity of 3x, were there to carry the torch when WotC sold out and bean counters took over the decision making from the talent.
Let's not simply blame Peter for wanting to "cash out". Selling to Hasbro enabled quite a few people who invested a lot into WotC to get the payback they deserved.

I never blame. I'm just pointing out that it's a business, and gamers take it way too personally sometimes. Peter and his investors went with the best deal. Not for the TTRPG D&D, but for them.

Pathfinder pretty much pet 3.5 alive, and kept the hobby from completely falling into ruin. They're the top dog in the market now, and most of the smaller dogs support their product in one way or another, if not supporting Pathfinder being their entire business model. With the market realities what they are, Paizo would have to lose a lot of ground for Hasbro to see enough incentive to try and lap up the lost customers. Otherwise, fighting Paizo with a fantasy game based on D&D, using basically the same classes, races, monsters, etc. really isn't a smart use of marketing and branding budget. They put out a decent core for people that just have to have D&D on the book cover.

Sovereign Court

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I find this discussion relevant to my interests

Grand Lodge

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Zhangar wrote:

Hasbro won't be the downfall of the D&D brand itself, but I won't be shocked in the slightest if Hasbro screws over 5E like they did 4E, since the TTRPG doesn't really matter to Hasbro.

As has already been noted, there's not enough money in the TTRPG market.

The Paper and Dice game may not be Hasbro's top priority, but they won't intentionally screw it up, as they're not looking to purposely lose money on a line. They pretty much leave that to the WOTC division.


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Lorathorn wrote:
I find this discussion relevant to my interests

That's a discussion?

If that's a discussion, then "Everyone will always like pie" is a cookbook.


LazarX wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Hasbro won't be the downfall of the D&D brand itself, but I won't be shocked in the slightest if Hasbro screws over 5E like they did 4E, since the TTRPG doesn't really matter to Hasbro.

As has already been noted, there's not enough money in the TTRPG market.

The Paper and Dice game may not be Hasbro's top priority, but they won't intentionally screw it up, as they're not looking to purposely lose money on a line. They pretty much leave that to the WOTC division.

They probably didn't mean to screw up 4E either, but they still did it =P

Edit: As the WotC division is completely at the mercy of Hasbro deciding that there needs to be a complete changeover of their team, and/or that they need to scrap what they're doing and reboot the edition to try to appeal to different players (which is pretty much what happened with Essentials).

Even if WotC is doing 5E correctly, there's no guarantee that Hasbro will continue to let them do so.

Grand Lodge

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Zhangar wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Hasbro won't be the downfall of the D&D brand itself, but I won't be shocked in the slightest if Hasbro screws over 5E like they did 4E, since the TTRPG doesn't really matter to Hasbro.

As has already been noted, there's not enough money in the TTRPG market.

The Paper and Dice game may not be Hasbro's top priority, but they won't intentionally screw it up, as they're not looking to purposely lose money on a line. They pretty much leave that to the WOTC division.

They probably didn't mean to screw up 4E either, but they still did it =P

Edit: As the WotC division is completely at the mercy of Hasbro deciding that there needs to be a complete changeover of their team, and/or that they need to scrap what they're doing and reboot the edition to try to appeal to different players (which is pretty much what happened with Essentials).

Even if WotC is doing 5E correctly, there's no guarantee that Hasbro will continue to let them do so.

And there's no reason for the paranoia that Hasbro will intentionally screw up a winning strategy. They've been pretty much hands off for the most part.

There's no such thing as a guaranteed success strategy, especially in a market as small and volatile as the paper and dice gaming. WOTC created 4E as a response to the perceived player feedback on what was wrong with 3.5. That and the fact that the 3.5 buy in market had been pretty much tapped out with players opting for third party gaming as opposed to WOTC supplements. Stuff happens.

Sovereign Court

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Lorathorn wrote:
I find this discussion relevant to my interests

That's a discussion?

If that's a discussion, then "Everyone will always like pie" is a cookbook.

I'm saying that the discussion at hand (that being this thread) has stoked my interest and, by extension, my writing.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

How do you think DnD profits stack up compared to MTG for Hasbro? It's probably somewhat minor.

Contributor

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On the most recent earning's call, Hasbro's CEO acknowledged that its games were overall on an upswing, and singled out Dungeons and Dragons in particular as doing well.

In all, D&D sales probably contribute an amount not much more than a balance sheet rounding error to Hasbro, but the CEO calling it out seems a good sign for the game.

Sovereign Court

I would wager that concerned parties worry more about any attention being put on D&D by the authority at Hasbro.

That having been said, I maintain the confidence that the fan base will be eventually heard, however obdurate the current plans for D&D may be. If not... mores the pity, but I intend to add my voice to the dissenters until change is enacted. I highly recommend the lost art of physical letter writing.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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houstonderek wrote:
Yep. Petey wanted to cash out. Blame him for Hasbro.

While Peter was certainly instrumental in the Hasbro purchase of Wizards, it took the majority of Wizards of the Coast shareholders to actually make it happen. Lisa and I both voted to sell, and we have no regrets about that. (For that matter, I don't know a single Wizards shareholder who does regret it.) So if you're passing around "blame," put some right here.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

That doesn't fit the narrative, Vic!
You and your facts.


I'm not here to blame anyone for the sale. I am discussing the destructive force behind a megacorporation when it gets it's hands on something they think they can turn into a mega money maker. The problem with companies like Hasbro is they are trapped in the ever increasing profit treadmill. Profit isn't enough to companies like these, they have to maximize their profits because of shareholders. I believe Hasbro will strip D&D of the name and let the rest just fade away.

I would rather see D&D progress for years to come without trying to make mega profits. I mean look at GURPS or Shadowrun, or even World of Darkness, while not mega brand names, the game keeps going with that being their primary goal. That is what works for me. Not this bare bones of a joke schedule we get.


Ron Lundeen wrote:

On the most recent earning's call, Hasbro's CEO acknowledged that its games were overall on an upswing, and singled out Dungeons and Dragons in particular as doing well.

In all, D&D sales probably contribute an amount not much more than a balance sheet rounding error to Hasbro, but the CEO calling it out seems a good sign for the game.

It's a brand new edition what did he expect? All the new editions of D&D come flying out of the gates and 5th edition is no different.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Forever Slayer wrote:

I'm not here to blame anyone for the sale. I am discussing the destructive force behind a megacorporation when it gets it's hands on something they think they can turn into a mega money maker. The problem with companies like Hasbro is they are trapped in the ever increasing profit treadmill. Profit isn't enough to companies like these, they have to maximize their profits because of shareholders. I believe Hasbro will strip D&D of the name and let the rest just fade away.

I would rather see D&D progress for years to come without trying to make mega profits. I mean look at GURPS or Shadowrun, or even World of Darkness, while not mega brand names, the game keeps going with that being their primary goal. That is what works for me. Not this bare bones of a joke schedule we get.

Theres no way the limited schedule was dictated by hasbro. That's not how subsidiaries work.

Especially given what a trivial thing D&D is.


I don't really think D&D even can have downfall at this point; D&D might be no more popular than cribbage in the next century, but at least D&D has named the genre, if you see what I mean. Let me say, I'd love to see a world where the public recognized "polyhedral dice games" the same way they do "card games," but at this point I feel like it's D&D vs "Things Normal People Do."


Hitdice wrote:
I don't really think D&D even can have downfall at this point; D&D might be no more popular than cribbage in the next century, but at least D&D has named the genre, if you see what I mean. Let me say, I'd love to see a world where the public recognized "polyhedral dice games" the same way they do "card games," but at this point I feel like it's D&D vs "Things Normal People Do."

That is exactly why D&D needs to be away from Hasbro. There are companies out there who cater to the TTRPG crowd and don't care about reaching the general public.

I am very happy with the 5th edition ruleset, I am not happy with their s#*%e release schedule.


Then there are companies that are willing to risk a lot on the assumption that TTRPG people, are the general public

*mind-blown*


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houstonderek wrote:

Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

Well, people used to think that all video game systems were "nintendos". These sorts of things don't last forever, though it will probably take longer in a smaller market like this one.


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Maybe I didn't say so in a simple vocabulary, but I think it's better for RPGs in the long run if D&D is recognizable brand-name. (Even when published by such corporate jerks as Hasbro!)

. . .

It's cool, I reside in Rhode Island.


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Forever Slayer wrote:
Ron Lundeen wrote:

On the most recent earning's call, Hasbro's CEO acknowledged that its games were overall on an upswing, and singled out Dungeons and Dragons in particular as doing well.

In all, D&D sales probably contribute an amount not much more than a balance sheet rounding error to Hasbro, but the CEO calling it out seems a good sign for the game.

It's a brand new edition what did he expect? All the new editions of D&D come flying out of the gates and 5th edition is no different.

Agreed.

It's going on 10 months since 5E has been in circulation. It better be in an upswing. The initial release has set the standard for the quarterly reports from here on out. Once it hits it's 12 month cycle, that is when the true numbers REALLY matter. It is called sustainability and we are coming closer to see where 5E will be once the first 12 months is complete.

THAT will determine where 5E will trend, not by some random earning's call. The quarterlies always determine upswings and downswings, not a random earnings call.

And plus, the scant release schedule will be difficult to sustain this 'upswing' as fewer releases are even scheduled. So many people purchase the 3 main sourcebooks and when all they're releasing are, and I quote according to their Hasbro branding guy (I forget his name) - maybe 2 - 3 'stories' per year. Plus, they will be 'listening' to the players to see what the 'players' want. I read that as so freaking non-commital which means, at least to me, they have no bleeping clue.

Shadow Lodge

Matrix Dragon wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

Well, people used to think that all video game systems were "nintendos". These sorts of things don't last forever, though it will probably take longer in a smaller market like this one.

And sometimes they do. When was the last time you asked for a facial tissue, instead of asking for a Kleenex? Or a cotton swab instead of a Q-tip?


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when we moved to Seattle i asked this poor stoned hippy "where's the nearest Tyme Machine?" you see in the midwest for the longest time ATMs were run by a company called Tyme, so everyone around our area instead of calling an ATM an ATM we call them Tyme Machines.

sadly that poor hippy didn't stick around long enough to find all this out, he did ask me if i was trying to f@@~ with him tho:-p

Sovereign Court

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Who cares about D&D as long as alternatives that are just as good are around? I mean I had no problem jumping to Pathfinder when they rolled it out since D&D at the time wasn't what I wanted to play.


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Pan wrote:
Who cares about D&D as long as alternatives that are just as good are around? I mean I had no problem jumping to Pathfinder when they rolled it out since D&D at the time wasn't what I wanted to play.

I want the brand name to survive. The better known it is and the more likelihood there is of mainstream possibilities, the easier it is to raise serious capital (for movies, novel franchises, television shows, computer games or anything else) across the RPG industry as a whole.

I may not care about any of those specific things (and may actively dislike many of them), but that's not the point, in my mind - the more capital coming into the industry, the easier it is for people to carve out a career. The more fringe-y it gets, the more we have to continue to rely on part-timers and creative types doing us the favor of working for peanuts.

Sovereign Court

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Pan wrote:
Who cares about D&D as long as alternatives that are just as good are around? I mean I had no problem jumping to Pathfinder when they rolled it out since D&D at the time wasn't what I wanted to play.

I want the brand name to survive. The better known it is and the more likelihood there is of mainstream possibilities, the easier it is to raise serious capital (for movies, novel franchises, television shows, computer games or anything else).

I may not care about any of those things, but the more capital coming into the industry, the easier it is for people to carve out a career. The more fringe-y it gets, the more we have to continue to rely on part-timers and creative types doing us the favor of working for peanuts.

Yeah I have zero fear the brand will go away. I mean Atari is still a thing and its history is much worse than D&Ds. Some brands will never die. I don't think a strong TTRPG is necessary for a strong brand. I could have made my point much better I guess. Who cares if the D&D TTRPG sucks or diminishes into a poorly supported game as long as they pump the brand. The alternatives will benefit from it like you pointed out with additional career launching and a community interested in TTRPGs that dont suck.

*Please note I dont think 5E sucks, but even if I did I wouldn't be worried about D&D.

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