I believe Hasbro will be the downfall of D&D.


4th Edition

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Steve Geddes wrote:


I find it ironic, given their position on PDFs of the core books, that their PDF support in other, non core areas is so far ahead of the market. The elemental player guide is basically a mini-splatbook. The production values are high, it was free and there's a print on demand option.

This as well as statements about licensing suggest, to me at least, that this time it's not about piracy as much as trying to sell some electronic version of the rules via a license with someone also capable of adding some kind of value like character building software. I think they must see that combination as so important they're willing to forgo PDF sales to get it off the ground.


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Bill Dunn wrote:

There are times you do sound like a broken record. ;)

Though, truly, I don't read your posts nearly as much as I used to because, at least in some threads, I know what they're going to be about...

Yeah, sorry about that. Probably a low-grade personality disorder at work.

...though the wife might say it isn't so low-grade. ;)


Steve Geddes wrote:
I find it ironic, given their position on PDFs of the core books, that their PDF support in other, non core areas is so far ahead of the market. The elemental player guide is basically a mini-splatbook. The production values are high, it was free and there's a print on demand option.

Are you familiar with Pathfinder's Compagnion line?


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goldomark wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I find it ironic, given their position on PDFs of the core books, that their PDF support in other, non core areas is so far ahead of the market. The elemental player guide is basically a mini-splatbook. The production values are high, it was free and there's a print on demand option.
Are you familiar with Pathfinder's Compagnion line?

Seeing as Steve is a subscriber to the Pathfinder Companion line ('superscriber' encompasses almost every line), I'm going to guess the answer is 'yes.'

Shadow Lodge

Since when has the Companion line become free?


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
goldomark wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I find it ironic, given their position on PDFs of the core books, that their PDF support in other, non core areas is so far ahead of the market. The elemental player guide is basically a mini-splatbook. The production values are high, it was free and there's a print on demand option.
Are you familiar with Pathfinder's Compagnion line?

Yep, I have a complete collection (with multiple copies of the ones I hand out as player guides). They're awesome.


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Bill Dunn wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:


I find it ironic, given their position on PDFs of the core books, that their PDF support in other, non core areas is so far ahead of the market. The elemental player guide is basically a mini-splatbook. The production values are high, it was free and there's a print on demand option.
This as well as statements about licensing suggest, to me at least, that this time it's not about piracy as much as trying to sell some electronic version of the rules via a license with someone also capable of adding some kind of value like character building software. I think they must see that combination as so important they're willing to forgo PDF sales to get it off the ground.

There's actually a quote from one of the M:tG guys about what the FLGS means to WotC. Effectively, the importance of the Local Game Store as a place to play is such that they won't sell product direct, they won't provide it as PDFs, because it's far more valuable to them to keep the FLGSs happy than it is to make a slightly larger profit. I suspect the policy carries over to the minor RPG side business too.

And as I think I've mentioned before, you can download the excellent Eclipse Phase free. All of it. And in various ebook formats as well as pdf. If WotC have decided to follow that policy for at least their smaller supplements, that is a major decision for the RPG industry. Both the elemental player guide and Dragon+ suggest they might.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

That's a great point, actually. I hadn't considered how important gaming stores are to magic - and how the tabletop RPGers may well receive a lower level of service to help keep the high profit customers happy and in good supply.


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That is a good point...there's no question in my mind that Magic relies heavily on store play space. However, assuming it is the reason, though, they should just say so when asked...

Shadow Lodge

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I've actually made that point on several occasions, minus the references to MtG. Unlike Pathfinder, D&D's primary point of sale is the FLGS (ok, these days it's probably Amazon, but the FLGS is more important to D&D than it is to Pathfinder, since Paizo's primary point of sale is it's webstore, specifically the subscriptions). As such, WotC wants to keep the FLGS happy. You know what doesn't make the FLGS happy? People deciding to just get a PDF and forgo the print edition. That's why I think WotC is going to have a substantial delay for PDFs.

There's also the bottleneck issue. WotC is already releasing about 4-6 PDFs weekly through OneBookShelf. And there are still a ton more from previous editions to release. They COULD flood OneBookShelf with every single PDF that is prepared, but customers would likely miss products they want to purchase in that deluge. It may be the same amount of money, but it's a lot more feasible for people to justify spending $10 a week for a year to purchase PDFs than spending $520 to purchase all the same PDFs all in one go.

Liberty's Edge

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The only problem that I have with D&D and Pathfinder being owned by two different companies?

Some of the best 3.0 and 3.5 books weren't OGL. If it weren't for that one hiccup, then I probably wouldn't care as much about what happened to D&D (I guess I would still care a little bit)

Semi-Related Rant:
With games like Battletech and Shadowrun, every single company who owned those two franchises had at least one Ex-FASA employee working for them, so the two franchises were always in good hands... And will remain in good hands if that trend continues.

FASA dies: Ex-FASA employees work at Topps, who buys Battletech and Shadowrun
Topps dies: Ex-FASA and Ex-Topps employees band together and make Catalyst.

Later, the ENTIRE BACKLOG of Battletech is mysteriously shipped to a gamestore in Houston that I conveniently visit when they order a copy of 5th Edition Shadowrun. When I started playing at that gamestore (my second Pathfinder game ever) and saw all of that Battletech stuff on the shelf, I had legitimately thought I had died and went to Heaven.... Up until I realized I had no money, then it was Hell.

Grand Lodge

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As a local con I had one of my PFS slots supplanted by a D&D slot, and so I figured I would grab a pregen and give it a try. I was struck by two facets of the game, or at leasts its organized play variant, that I was surprised by, the first was that the pregen I was supplied was a jerk. Not like that was my interruption, he had write there sentences like "He things anyone less intelligent then he is, isn't worth talking to." or a quotation, "There are many choices, but the one I make are right." So at the get go, I was sat down as an antagonist to the parties enjoyment. I did my best to make the characters behave in character in a way that was funny/ironic to the table. The other facet was that the rewards for the game were limited, and distributed through random means to the table. We earned 2 rewards, and fought over who got them.

This feel, is very reminiscent of my magic days, which of course were intended to be competitive, you win, you get prizes, you often pay for entry. But in my RPG life, this was anthesis to the goal of the game, which was fun, and I was shocked by it.

The rules are fine, and I could run a great game with them with my friends, but the organized play aspect was not my cup of tea.


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I think Pathfinder is better off with D&D around (and possibly vice versa as well). Think about it, if I've never played a role playing game before, I'm probably going to start with D&D. It's got a movie coming out and popular computer games. I probably have heard of D&D, less likely to have heard of Pathfinder.

But then I, newcomer, might start trying alternate roleplaying games and might look into Pathfinder. Or I might find PF organized play at my game store. I might convert over or play both.

D&D might take some of the customers from Pathfinder, but I think it brings more people to the hobby in general.


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Galnörag wrote:
he had right there sentences like "He things anyone less intelligent then he is, isn't worth talking to." or a quotation, "There are many choices, but the one I make are right." So at the get go, I was sat down as an antagonist to the parties enjoyment.

Those might work well in a home group where people can separate you from your character, but I can see how role playing that way among strangers might paint an inaccurate picture of you. Not to mention bring the party down.

Could you not have chosen a different pregen? Or did they only have one available?

Grand Lodge

Dustin Ashe wrote:
Galnörag wrote:
he had right there sentences like "He things anyone less intelligent then he is, isn't worth talking to." or a quotation, "There are many choices, but the one I make are right." So at the get go, I was sat down as an antagonist to the parties enjoyment.

Those might work well in a home group where people can separate you from your character, but I can see how role playing that way among strangers might paint an inaccurate picture of you. Not to mention bring the party down.

Could you not have chosen a different pregen? Or did they only have one available?

In the context I didn't really have time to flip through them, I was asked "Wizard/Fighter/Rogue/Cleric?" and I said Wizard and they handed me that as the official 5e pregen for this season.

It wasn't until I was at the table reading over the character that I was astonished to find a pregen intended for new players was designed to be such a detriment to group play.


Pre-generated characters are just stats, inject whatever personality you want.

Grand Lodge

captain yesterday wrote:
Pre-generated characters are just stats, inject whatever personality you want.

I partially disagree. Pre-generated characters can be used as "only stats" for experienced role-players, who may be playing a pre-gen for a myriad of reasons.

For new players, a pregenerated character serve as more than just stats, but as a play suggestion. Pathfinder pre-gens for PFS give detailed back stories, and characterization information, giving people who may be uncountable or uncertain how to act some ideas. As RPGs are more than just the mechanics, the pre-gen gives both mechanical and characterization for new players.

For many, organized play is how they are introduced to RPGs, that introduction doesn't need to be a perfect experience, but it should be inviting, and welcoming.

Arguably, Maligaster, Setyl, and Alynn are not positive characters either, but I typical, when running PFS for new players only offer the core class pre-gens.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I agree that's an error for organised play. There are other options they could have used that would be much better for encouraging cooperation and general group harmony.


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Very true, I was under the mistaken impression the DM had made them not that those were the ones out of the can, my apologies :-)

Dark Archive

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davrion wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

That is NOT true. People know that Pathfinder is an SUV.
...and a bad Karl Urban movie

Who is Karl Urban?


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Chris Ballard wrote:
davrion wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

Here's one place Hasbro is winning. To the vast majority of the population, if they see a bunch of people gaming, they assume "Dungeons and Dragons". Outside of our bubble, no one knows what the hell "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" are.

That is NOT true. People know that Pathfinder is an SUV.
...and a bad Karl Urban movie
Who is Karl Urban?

Karl Urban

Pathfinder, the movie

I didn't know until i did a search either:-)

Scarab Sages

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I figured that most here would know that Karl Urban played Éomer in Lord of the Rings (the movie named PF which has nothing to do with the RPG, not so much).


captain yesterday wrote:
Pre-generated characters are just stats, inject whatever personality you want.

In 5e as with many RPGs, the things that matter to you and which in part define your personality are Stats. Traits, Flaws and Bonds in the case of 5e.

Grand Lodge

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It is really just a variant of the background stuff in the Ultimate Campaign stuff, so it is a stat or not, early in design Mike Mearls implied it is more guide line than hard and fast rule. I just maintain my earlier stance that it isn't a great way to run a organized play with intentionally abrasive pre-gens.


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Galnörag wrote:
I just maintain my earlier stance that it isn't a great way to run a organized play with intentionally abrasive pre-gens.

I have to agree. While having an abrasive pre-gen can illustrate how diverse a group of PCs can be for newbies, it's probably better over all to have a group that can easily gel as an adventuring party. Otherwise, you may start to wonder why, exactly, this group adventures together at all.

Sovereign Court

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Indeed. There is no need to justify/ingrain the "but that's what my character would do" mindset that seems to be the leading cause of PC deaths (in my games at least).

If someone wants to come to the table and play a jerk, and do it well, that should be their prerogative. I've seen it happen, and it CAN make the game fun, but this arena belongs to the advanced player, or at the very least someone who has a handle on how not to derail the fun of an encounters/con game.

This is certainly not the field for new players to wet their toes.


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Bill Dunn wrote:
Galnörag wrote:
I just maintain my earlier stance that it isn't a great way to run a organized play with intentionally abrasive pre-gens.
I have to agree. While having an abrasive pre-gen can illustrate how diverse a group of PCs can be for newbies, it's probably better over all to have a group that can easily gel as an adventuring party. Otherwise, you may start to wonder why, exactly, this group adventures together at all.

The particular example given does seem like a bad one, but that's possibly a result of someone thinking that a personality description hasn't any meaning and therefore can be ignored by the player. Once you remember that these phrases actually have an effect in the game and therefore need a player to actually play up to them, I think you'd want to prepare characters differently. "My character likes to show off their knowledge," and "There are three ways, the right way, the wrong way, and My Way," would seem less directly confrontational and more open to interpretation, while still giving a good sense for the character's personality.

Grand Lodge

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Bluenose wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Galnörag wrote:
I just maintain my earlier stance that it isn't a great way to run a organized play with intentionally abrasive pre-gens.
I have to agree. While having an abrasive pre-gen can illustrate how diverse a group of PCs can be for newbies, it's probably better over all to have a group that can easily gel as an adventuring party. Otherwise, you may start to wonder why, exactly, this group adventures together at all.
The particular example given does seem like a bad one, but that's possibly a result of someone thinking that a personality description hasn't any meaning and therefore can be ignored by the player. Once you remember that these phrases actually have an effect in the game and therefore need a player to actually play up to them, I think you'd want to prepare characters differently. "My character likes to show off their knowledge," and "There are three ways, the right way, the wrong way, and My Way," would seem less directly confrontational and more open to interpretation, while still giving a good sense for the character's personality.

As I understand I was handed an official D&D Adventure's League pregen, that would be tantamount to handing you Esren but his mirror world evil mustachio version.

Grand Lodge

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Here I found the online link

Flaws:
* I have little respect for those of low intelligence.

Personality Traits:
* They are out to get me. It's only my cunning that keeps me ahead of them.
* Everyone has a choice; the one I make is always right though

Some of the other stuff isn't so bad, but those one captured me when I first got there as being in the realm of not appropriate for a pregen.

The one I didn't understand (not steeped in FR as I once was):

Bonds:
* They say the Shade broke the bonds of mortality. I want to find out how.

To me that says I want to be amoral (not immoral) which again doesn't seem conducive to a cooperation. Maybe I just take for granted that the tenants of the in game world Pathfinder Society are really great for making a cohesive if illogical table of players.


I didn't read this thread more than fifty or so posts back, but what how does Gencon 2015 factor into the "Wizards supports the flgs so that explains their business decisions' argument?

If 5th edition had a presence at Gencon 2015, I was not aware of it. I did stumble on the shared organized play area. It wasn't exactly impressive.

Of course there is that 'Wizards is now focused on Origins' counter, but I don't buy that one.

What in the world are they thinking by not pumping up their brand all over Gencon?


organized wrote:

I didn't read this thread more than fifty or so posts back, but what how does Gencon 2015 factor into the "Wizards supports the flgs so that explains their business decisions' argument?

If 5th edition had a presence at Gencon 2015, I was not aware of it. I did stumble on the shared organized play area. It wasn't exactly impressive.

Of course there is that 'Wizards is now focused on Origins' counter, but I don't buy that one.

What in the world are they thinking by not pumping up their brand all over Gencon?

I read somewhere that Chris Perkins believes the future of D&D tabletop is not in conventions but on Twitch.

I'll try to find where I read that.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Galnörag wrote:

Bonds:

* They say the Shade broke the bonds of mortality. I want to find out how.

To me that says I want to be amoral (not immoral) which again doesn't seem conducive to a cooperation.

Are you by any chance reading "mortality" as "morality"? I think he wants to be immortal, not amoral....


organized wrote:

I didn't read this thread more than fifty or so posts back, but what how does Gencon 2015 factor into the "Wizards supports the flgs so that explains their business decisions' argument?

If 5th edition had a presence at Gencon 2015, I was not aware of it. I did stumble on the shared organized play area. It wasn't exactly impressive.

Of course there is that 'Wizards is now focused on Origins' counter, but I don't buy that one.

What in the world are they thinking by not pumping up their brand all over Gencon?

That PAX is better suited to what they want to do to promote D&D, apparently. They seem to have had a larger presence there. I think the theory is that people at GenCon who have an interest in RPGs are almost certainly already aware of D&D 5e and they have their organised play for people who want to play it and numerous third parties selling their books. While PAX lets them go after an audience that isn't as familiar with D&D, or at least not the tabletop version, and is also a larger show with broader press coverage.

Grand Lodge

Vic Wertz wrote:
Galnörag wrote:

Bonds:

* They say the Shade broke the bonds of mortality. I want to find out how.

To me that says I want to be amoral (not immoral) which again doesn't seem conducive to a cooperation.

Are you by any chance reading "mortality" as "morality"? I think he wants to be immortal, not amoral....

Yup... the other ones are still sketchy, but this one was clearly a miss read, at the time, and my memory of that time, is clouded from 2 days of playing and running PFS, and preping for our own special the next night, D&D was a diversion out of interest, and I gotta say they didn't win me over.

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