I believe Hasbro will be the downfall of D&D.


4th Edition

151 to 200 of 384 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Also, while the OGL was necessary for Pathfinder to exist, but it didn't cause Pathfinder to beat 4E. That fiasco (from WotC's point of view) came from the mis-managment of D&D -- exactly the bad management they're (apparently) still laboring under.
Did PF "beat" 4E? Pathfinder certainly thrived and grew, but IIRC according to the publicly available numbers, it only passed 4E when 4E was ramping down and they were starting work on 5E. I'd love to know that wasn't true.

I'm pretty sure Lisa's ten-year reminiscences blogs indicated that Pathfinder overtook 4E sales a good year or so before it began to show up in ICv2 surveys. If I was Joana, I'd have a link for you. As it is, I just have a hazy recollection...


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:

BUT THEY ONLY RELEASE TWO ADVENTURES PER YEAR!!! IT'S HORRIBLE!!!!!

Especially compared to the huge number of Adventure Paths that Paizo puts out every year.

The annual page count of adventures (I ignored appendices) appears comparable (especially since Paizo APs and modules often include the statblocks in the body of the adventure and PF statblocks are pretty extensive).

To me the big, disappointment is the lack of sourcebooks and flavor material. That's what I love about Paizo and what I'm missing out of WotC's release schedule.


I thought it was a bit of a dickish move that they would use the Sundering to get a lot of us interested in the game only to find out absolutely nothing about it.


Yeah a campaign setting is the first thing I buy after the PH/DMG/MM grouping


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'm pretty sure Lisa's ten-year reminiscences blogs indicated that Pathfinder overtook 4E sales a good year or so before it began to show up in ICv2 surveys. If I was Joana, I'd have a link for you. As it is, I just have a hazy recollection...

Ooh, a challenge. :)

Here's the relevant text from the bottom of Lisa's part of the blog, just before the bolded "Employees who started in 2010."

Lisa Stevens wrote:
This will be news to most readers: By the end of 2010, the Pathfinder RPG had already overtaken D&D as the bestselling RPG. It would take almost half a year before industry magazine ICv2 first reported it, and several quarters more before some people were willing to accept it as fact, but internally, we already knew it was true. We'd heard it from nearly all of our hobby trade distributors; we'd heard it from buyers at book chains like Barnes & Noble and Borders; we could see it using industry sales trackers such as BookScan; we were even regularly coming out on top on Amazon's bestseller charts. Each individual market we sold in had us either tied with or outselling D&D, and none of those sources counted our considerable direct sales on paizo.com. Put all of those things together, and it was clear: Pathfinder had become the first RPG ever to oust D&D from top spot. It wasn't our goal, but here we were. And as we started planning for 2011, we knew that if we were going to be the industry leader, we were going to have to step up our game and act like a leader. 2011 would be our first chance to show what we could do with that position....

I don't actually remember when 4e started winding down its releases. Does this prove or refute the point?


Back on topic, honestly they really need a campaign setting book, those sell almost as good as the splatbooks :-)


Joana wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'm pretty sure Lisa's ten-year reminiscences blogs indicated that Pathfinder overtook 4E sales a good year or so before it began to show up in ICv2 surveys. If I was Joana, I'd have a link for you. As it is, I just have a hazy recollection...

Ooh, a challenge. :)

Here's the relevant text from the bottom of Lisa's part of the blog, just before the bolded "Employees who started in 2010."

Lisa Stevens wrote:
This will be news to most readers: By the end of 2010, the Pathfinder RPG had already overtaken D&D as the bestselling RPG. It would take almost half a year before industry magazine ICv2 first reported it, and several quarters more before some people were willing to accept it as fact, but internally, we already knew it was true. We'd heard it from nearly all of our hobby trade distributors; we'd heard it from buyers at book chains like Barnes & Noble and Borders; we could see it using industry sales trackers such as BookScan; we were even regularly coming out on top on Amazon's bestseller charts. Each individual market we sold in had us either tied with or outselling D&D, and none of those sources counted our considerable direct sales on paizo.com. Put all of those things together, and it was clear: Pathfinder had become the first RPG ever to oust D&D from top spot. It wasn't our goal, but here we were. And as we started planning for 2011, we knew that if we were going to be the industry leader, we were going to have to step up our game and act like a leader. 2011 would be our first chance to show what we could do with that position....
I don't actually remember when 4e started winding down its releases. Does this prove or refute the point?

Thanks. I'd thought it was more recent than that.

I wasn't paying a lot of attention at the time, but that looks like it's around the time Essentials came out and a couple years before they announced the playtest for Next.

I stand corrected.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
bugleyman wrote:
Also, while the OGL was necessary for Pathfinder to exist, but it didn't cause Pathfinder to beat 4E. That fiasco (from WotC's point of view) came from the mis-managment of D&D -- exactly the bad management they're (apparently) still laboring under.
thejeff wrote:
Did PF "beat" 4E? Pathfinder certainly thrived and grew, but IIRC according to the publicly available numbers, it only passed 4E when 4E was ramping down and they were starting work on 5E. I'd love to know that wasn't true.
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'm pretty sure Lisa's ten-year reminiscences blogs indicated that Pathfinder overtook 4E sales a good year or so before it began to show up in ICv2 surveys. If I was Joana, I'd have a link for you. As it is, I just have a hazy recollection...
Joana wrote:

Ooh, a challenge. :)

Here's the relevant text from the bottom of Lisa's part of the blog, just before the bolded "Employees who started in 2010."

Lisa Stevens wrote:
This will be news to most readers: By the end of 2010, the Pathfinder RPG had already overtaken D&D as the bestselling RPG. It would take almost half a year before industry magazine ICv2 first reported it, and several quarters more before some people were willing to accept it as fact, but internally, we already knew it was true. We'd heard it from nearly all of our hobby trade distributors; we'd heard it from buyers at book chains like Barnes & Noble and Borders; we could see it using industry sales trackers such as BookScan; we were even regularly coming out on top on Amazon's bestseller charts. Each individual market we sold in had us either tied with or outselling D&D, and none of those sources counted our considerable direct sales on paizo.com. Put all of those things together, and it was clear: Pathfinder had become the first RPG ever to oust D&D from top spot. It wasn't our goal, but here we were. And as we started planning for 2011, we knew that if we were going to be the industry leader, we were going to have to step up our game and act like a leader. 2011 would be our first chance to show what we could do with that position....
I don't actually remember when 4e started winding down its releases. Does this prove or refute the point?

Note: some of this is taken from here, and some from my library, and some from other sources. Bear that in mind: I may be missing some books from this list; I didn't bother to record the 2008/2009 books.

4E's PH3 notes "Printed in the U.S.A. © 2010 Wizards of the Coast LLC"

Similarly in 2010: Martial Power 2, Psionic Power, both Races books (Dragonborn and Tieflings), Essentials (Fallen Lands, Forgotten Kingdoms, Rules Compendium, Monster Vault), and Player's Strategy Guide; Demonomicon, MM3; The Plane Above, Underdark, Dungeon Master's Kit, Marauder of the Dune Sea, Dark Sun Campaign Setting, Vor Rukoth, Dungeon Magazine Annual, and Hammerfast.
{The Slaying Stone}
<Wrath of Ashardalon Board Game This has a second release date in 2011 - was it delayed or rereleased?>
TOTAL: 21

In 2011: Heroes (Shadowfell, Feywild), Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, Book of Vile Darkness (DMG, and, I presume, PH, but I don't know), Neverwinter Campaign Setting, Threats to the Nentir Vale, Shadowfell, Deluxe DM Screen
{Madness of Guardmore Abby}
TOTAL: 9

In 2012: Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, Dungeon Survival Handbook
TOTAL: 2

So, 32 books. Given that there were about 60 books total, and the printing started in 2007 (at least, that's what my Starter Set that came with Keep on Shadowfell, technically released before 4E started, claims), Paizo had defeated WotC for approximately half of it's actual print time and was ahead by the end of the single busiest year WotC produced anything (a full third of its books were produced in 2010).

So... yeah, sort of? But it's really hard to say that they defeated them "after" they wound down their release schedule, so much as it seems a kind of simultaneous affair: Paizo had overtaken them, and they were winding down about the same time.

EDITed for full conversation.

EDIT:
Dag. Gum. It.

I'm going ahead and looking at the rest.

2007: the two Wizards Presents (Races and Classes; and Worlds and Monsters)
TOTAL: 2

2008: Manual of the Planes, Martial Power, Chromatic Dragons, Starter Set, FRPG, Adventurer's Vault, FRCG, Dungeon Master Screen, Core Rulebooks (including the gift set) [Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, DMG]
{Keep on Shadowfell, Thunderspire Labyrinth, Pyramid of Shadows, Trollhaunt Warrens, Demon Queen's Enclave; Scepter Tower of Spellguard}
TOTAL: 11

2009: Secrets of the Undead, Plane Below, Metallic Dragons, Primal Power, DMG 2, Adventurer's Vault 2, Divine Power, Eberron Campaign Guide, Eberron Player's Guide, MM 2, Arcane Power, PH2, Dungeon Delve, Dragon Magazine Annual
{Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress, Death's Reach, Kingdom of the Ghouls, Prince of Undeath; Revenge of the Giants, Seekers of the Ashen Crown}
TOTAL: 13

Seems like I'm missing some somewhere, as there I'm getting 58.

EDIT: I didn't include the character record sheets or Menzoberranzan as I don't know when they were printed, exactly. Anyway, updated as much as possible. I didn't include the tile sets, but I don't think those count.

6 Essentials
4 Core Rulebooks
50 "Supplement" books

EDIT: Hey, a timeline.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

I skipped about 50 posts, so sorry if I'm no longer on point, but based on how things look from my admittedly small, distant vantage point on things, the prospects for TTRPG's is pretty good right now. I'm part of a generation that's got young kids now, and we're worried about our kids staring at screens all the time. D&D/Pathfinder give us a chance to a) play with our kids in a way that doesn't (centrally) involve screens, and that they can learn to do for themselves without adult help, and b) spend money on stuff we want to spend money on anyway and justify it as bonding material for the family. ($2,000 for a Dwarven Forge city set? Crazy! But it's for the children? Well, if we must....) (Not that that's me....)
And as a seller of minis on the secondary market, it sure looks to me like things are going great. Lots of new players showing up looking for new minis, and a lot of them are becoming repeat customers. It's got me feeling pretty rosy about the RPG world, though of course that's nothing like a guarantee!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kthulhu wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
You're correct. It appears that the lack of an OGL hasn't proven as ruinous as I had thought to third party publishers.
It's not exactly a giant leap. Editions prior to 3rd have had people publishing adventures for them since 2006 (when OSRIC first came out). None of those systems had the OGL. It's not a huge leap to use the same logic that allows retroclones, their supplements, and their adventures to legally exist to move forward to do the same for 5th edition as well.

But it is the OGL that accompanied 3rd edition that enabled *all* of those to exist, but opening up terms like hit points, armor class, etc.

I'm honestly not sure what your point here is, so I'll reiterate mine: Wotc has nothing to gain by not releasing 5E under the OGL, as a clone could be built with the existing OGL. They only manage to discourage participation (which is, perhaps, their goal) but muddying the legal waters.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

"On the other hand, if you publish new books too slowly, players who exhaust content quickly will begin to feel that their needs aren't supported, and they'll start looking for other game systems. And players left waiting too long for their favorite rules subsets will also get discouraged."

When formulating 5E, WOTC should have payed more attention to Lisa's analysis.


Those are true words, Dougal. I see that happening with 5th edition, despite being the best WotC has made.

As for Captain Yesterday's comment "What do they have on tap for the summer": Nothing. At least, nothing that we know of. The last thing I heard that was being released was Princes of the Apocalypse, and that was released nearly a month ago (April 7th, or even more than a month ago when you take into account WPN stores). I have not heard a single word about any release following this latest adventure.

Oh, and Kthulhu: Your comment about Hasbro making a time machine gave me a chuckle. I don't believe 3rd edition to be the perfection some people do. I think 2nd edition AD&D and 5th edition are tied for the best (I have 1 session of experience of 1st edition, which lasted 30 minutes and wasn't enough to form any opinion on it).

Paizo releases about 3-4 books each month: 1 part of an adventure path (typically around 100 pages), a 32 page player companion book, a 68 page Golarion setting book, and sometimes a standalone adventure module or hardcover "core" book. Wizards of the Coast plans to release 1-2 adventure storylines a year, and nothing else. Playtest drafts once a month in Unearthed Arcana, and that other column are nice to have, but that's all they are: drafts. Last year's release schedule wasn't bad: July 2014 gave us the starter set (and basic rules pdf); August gave us the PHB and Hoard of the Dragon Queen (96 page adventure for $50); September gave us the Monster Manual; October saw Rise of Tiamat (96 page adventure for $50); December gave us the DMG. Then we saw nothing until April 7th (since they pushed it back) with the release of Princes of the Apocalypse (255 pages for $50). What does the rest of this year hold in store? At most 1 more adventure if we are lucky, since PotA is more than 2x the size of either part of the Tyranny of Dragons adventures, so there's a chance PotA is all we get this year, since they said they have no intentions of releasing a rules book anytime soon.

Shadow Lodge

Adjule wrote:
Oh, and Kthulhu: Your comment about Hasbro making a time machine gave me a chuckle. I don't believe 3rd edition to be the perfection some people do. I think 2nd edition AD&D and 5th edition are tied for the best (I have 1 session of experience of 1st edition, which lasted 30 minutes and wasn't enough to form any opinion on it).

My favorite official D&D edition is actually the Rules Cyclopedia (although 5e gives it some competition), and my favorite "D&D" game is Swords & Wizardry (based on Original D&D). But going by sheer popularity and sales, the winner by far is 1E (although some 3.x fans have utterly convinced themselves that one to the 3E flavors was more popular. [rolls eyes] ).

Shadow Lodge

Adjule wrote:
since PotA is more than 2x the size of either part of the Tyranny of Dragons adventures

One of the things that I prefer about how WotC looks to be handling their adventures as opposed to Paizo. It seems that for WotC, the page count will conform to what the adventure requires, rather than Paizo's method of making the adventure conform to the required page count.


Adjule wrote:

Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR (and thus, D&D) in 1997. Hasbro purchased Wizards of the Coast in 1998. 2 years later, they released the 3rd edition of D&D.

How long they had been working on 3rd edition before the buyout, I don't know. But the supposed greatest edition of D&D was released under a Hasbro-owned Wizards of the Coast, which spawned Pathfinder.

What? WHAT? WHAAAATTT!!!????

AD&D was definitely NOT released under a Hasbro-owned Wizards of the Coast and I don't think it spawned Pathfinder.

With 25 million (who now mostly don't even play much less participate in the scene, so mostly lapsed) players, I think it FAR outnumbers how many played 3e and it's descendants (wasn't that around 5 million in initial estimates, though it wouldn't surprise me if those numbers are more around 8-10 million these days for all it's history and lapsed players).

Of course, it seems this was already pointed out by Kthulu.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Joana wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'm pretty sure Lisa's ten-year reminiscences blogs indicated that Pathfinder overtook 4E sales a good year or so before it began to show up in ICv2 surveys. If I was Joana, I'd have a link for you. As it is, I just have a hazy recollection...

Ooh, a challenge. :)

Here's the relevant text from the bottom of Lisa's part of the blog, just before the bolded "Employees who started in 2010."

Lisa Stevens wrote:
This will be news to most readers: By the end of 2010, the Pathfinder RPG had already overtaken D&D as the bestselling RPG. It would take almost half a year before industry magazine ICv2 first reported it, and several quarters more before some people were willing to accept it as fact, but internally, we already knew it was true. We'd heard it from nearly all of our hobby trade distributors; we'd heard it from buyers at book chains like Barnes & Noble and Borders; we could see it using industry sales trackers such as BookScan; we were even regularly coming out on top on Amazon's bestseller charts. Each individual market we sold in had us either tied with or outselling D&D, and none of those sources counted our considerable direct sales on paizo.com. Put all of those things together, and it was clear: Pathfinder had become the first RPG ever to oust D&D from top spot. It wasn't our goal, but here we were. And as we started planning for 2011, we knew that if we were going to be the industry leader, we were going to have to step up our game and act like a leader. 2011 would be our first chance to show what we could do with that position....
I don't actually remember when 4e started winding down its releases. Does this prove or refute the point?

Not really. ICV and Amazon probably would be the best indicators, however, with direct sales, I'd say a majority of the money WotC was making was also in direct sales in regards to the character tools and character creator (some did it by hand, but it was FAR easier just to use the character creator).

In fact the business model for 4e wasn't necessarily the hardcopies, but the subscribers (but in a different way than PAIZO's).

In many ways, for both companies, it was a hidden number, but I'd probably not rely so much on "BUYERS" from Barnes and Nobles as reliable, and more look at things that are a little more countable such as IcV and especially Amazon.

Amazon indicated that there may have been some stricter competition from Paizo products, but I wouldn't say it was decisive by any means.

With the hidden information, it's harder to tell. As a 4e player, I'd say that the REAL thing that actually got Paizo to start winning had NOTHING to do with what they released in their normal release schedule (such as the APs and modules...despite my love of them), and in truth it was the beginner box (that's how they've won over people like me).

I think Paizo has a fallibility that they believe their own stories a little too much. They talk about splitting the lines weakening the brand, but to tell the truth, ONE major reason I think TSR's D&D was dominate for soooo long was because the SPLIT the line directly between D&D and AD&D.

When looking at the people who got into playing in the 80s, and inordinately large amount of them started with the Red Box (equivalent of what I'd say is the Beginner Box with Paizo), and then many of them continued with at least the Expert box until moving onto what they felt was the more advanced AD&D.

I think the changing point that started Paizo to getting a definitive and definite lead was people buying into the Beginner Box and then eventually making the jump to full up PF.

It's one of the reasons I think ignoring the BB and only focusing on the main line is a mistake that Paizo has made (not that it's needed, they are doing fine with profits from what I understand). I think they could grow their audience a LOT more if they supported the BB a tad more than they have...but that's personal opinion based upon the dominance of AD&D during the 80s and 90s.

Ironically, it was AFTER they stopped support of the Red Box and BECMI versions that AD&D started a quick and rapid decline. You can say part of it was the other investments, but a part of it, I think was also loss of a core audience to other RPGs, and much of that was due to the loss of a simpler and more introductory system and their support for that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Adjule wrote:

Those are true words, Dougal. I see that happening with 5th edition, despite being the best WotC has made.

As for Captain Yesterday's comment "What do they have on tap for the summer": Nothing. At least, nothing that we know of. The last thing I heard that was being released was Princes of the Apocalypse, and that was released nearly a month ago (April 7th, or even more than a month ago when you take into account WPN stores). I have not heard a single word about any release following this latest adventure.

Oh, and Kthulhu: Your comment about Hasbro making a time machine gave me a chuckle. I don't believe 3rd edition to be the perfection some people do. I think 2nd edition AD&D and 5th edition are tied for the best (I have 1 session of experience of 1st edition, which lasted 30 minutes and wasn't enough to form any opinion on it).

Paizo releases about 3-4 books each month: 1 part of an adventure path (typically around 100 pages), a 32 page player companion book, a 68 page Golarion setting book, and sometimes a standalone adventure module or hardcover "core" book. Wizards of the Coast plans to release 1-2 adventure storylines a year, and nothing else. Playtest drafts once a month in Unearthed Arcana, and that other column are nice to have, but that's all they are: drafts. Last year's release schedule wasn't bad: July 2014 gave us the starter set (and basic rules pdf); August gave us the PHB and Hoard of the Dragon Queen (96 page adventure for $50); September gave us the Monster Manual; October saw Rise of Tiamat (96 page adventure for $50); December gave us the DMG. Then we saw nothing until April 7th (since they pushed it back) with the release of Princes of the Apocalypse (255 pages for $50). What does the rest of this year hold in store? At most 1 more adventure if we are lucky, since PotA is more than 2x the size of either part of the Tyranny of Dragons adventures, so there's a chance PotA is all we get this year, since they said they have no intentions of releasing a rules book anytime soon.

I think this counts, personally - for me, since it's available as Print on Demand, I think it's a 'real' release and not just a free supplement.

FWIW, they only officially announced Prince of the Apocalypse in January. I wouldnt rule out a storyline later in the year.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I liked the DMG. Monster books rarely interest me, so I dont really know - it seems pretty easy to use.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I liked the DMG. Monster books rarely interest me, so I dont really know - it seems pretty easy to use.

Obligatory "Monster Books" interest no one- you just need them to play the game. WotC did nothing to make that book feel like anything but the same damn book players have bought at least 3 time already.


Kthulhu wrote:
Adjule wrote:
Oh, and Kthulhu: Your comment about Hasbro making a time machine gave me a chuckle. I don't believe 3rd edition to be the perfection some people do. I think 2nd edition AD&D and 5th edition are tied for the best (I have 1 session of experience of 1st edition, which lasted 30 minutes and wasn't enough to form any opinion on it).
My favorite official D&D edition is actually the Rules Cyclopedia (although 5e gives it some competition), and my favorite "D&D" game is Swords & Wizardry (based on Original D&D). But going by sheer popularity and sales, the winner by far is 1E (although some 3.x fans have utterly convinced themselves that one to the 3E flavors was more popular. [rolls eyes] ).

I'm another Rules Cyclopedia fan, though my preferred retroclone is ACKS. I'd actually suspect that BD&D sold more than 1e, if you're only counting the rules, though I imagine the massive output of adventures and splat for AD&D takes it ahead of the smaller quantity for the Basic game.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Joe Hex wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I liked the DMG. Monster books rarely interest me, so I dont really know - it seems pretty easy to use.
Obligatory "Monster Books" interest no one- you just need them to play the game.

Heh. That's not the impression I get. Good to know I'm not alone though.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I never used it, but isn't THAC0 just increasing AC? Like aren't they mathematically identical?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:
I never used it, but isn't THAC0 just increasing AC? Like aren't they mathematically identical?

THACO = "To Hit Armor Class Zero" :) You wanted a low armor class in 2nd ED. :)

A side bit of trivia... They put THACO in the 5th edition PHB Index for the hell of it.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I know what it is (low AC still sounds better to me, even after all these years). What I meant is aren't the mathematical steps in using THAC0 or AC-as-DC essentially identical?

I've never quite understood THAC0-vitriol. I realise subtracting negative numbers is annoying, but it doesn't seem any worse than that, to me.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:

I know what it is (low AC still sounds better to me, even after all these years). What I meant is aren't the mathematical steps in using THAC0 or AC-as-DC essentially identical?

I've never quite understood THAC0-vitriol. I realise subtracting negative numbers is annoying, but it doesn't seem any worse than that, to me.

They're identical. As is the pre-THAC0 1E system, which is the same, but without the THAC0 number, you just looked on the table.

The vitriol is silly, but so is THAC0. It's only marginally more complicated, but it's needlessly so. The nostalgia for THAC0 is even sillier than the vitriol.
I'm not a great fan of standardization - different mechanics work better for different things, but THAC0 manages to make you learn a different mechanic without actually behaving differently.

Shadow Lodge

Steve Geddes wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I liked the DMG. Monster books rarely interest me, so I dont really know - it seems pretty easy to use.
Obligatory "Monster Books" interest no one- you just need them to play the game.
Heh. That's not the impression I get. Good to know I'm not alone though.

Of all "pure rulebooks", the monster books are really the ONLY ones that interest me.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I know what it is (low AC still sounds better to me, even after all these years). What I meant is aren't the mathematical steps in using THAC0 or AC-as-DC essentially identical?

I've never quite understood THAC0-vitriol. I realise subtracting negative numbers is annoying, but it doesn't seem any worse than that, to me.

They're identical. As is the pre-THAC0 1E system, which is the same, but without the THAC0 number, you just looked on the table.

The vitriol is silly, but so is THAC0. It's only marginally more complicated, but it's needlessly so. The nostalgia for THAC0 is even sillier than the vitriol.
I'm not a great fan of standardization - different mechanics work better for different things, but THAC0 manages to make you learn a different mechanic without actually behaving differently.

Yeah, that's a good point. I haven't actually seen THAC0 nostalgia though. I guess it was an innovation over the tables, though.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I liked the DMG. Monster books rarely interest me, so I dont really know - it seems pretty easy to use.
Obligatory "Monster Books" interest no one- you just need them to play the game.
Heh. That's not the impression I get. Good to know I'm not alone though.
Of all "pure rulebooks", the monster books are really the ONLY ones that interest me.

I think you're in good company. I remember the storm when Tome of Horrors complete sold out what? Six hours after release or something?

I liked the fiend folio, but by the time MM2 came out, I was a little bored. We generally have demihuman enemies though, so that probably factors into it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kthulhu wrote:
Adjule wrote:
Oh, and Kthulhu: Your comment about Hasbro making a time machine gave me a chuckle. I don't believe 3rd edition to be the perfection some people do. I think 2nd edition AD&D and 5th edition are tied for the best (I have 1 session of experience of 1st edition, which lasted 30 minutes and wasn't enough to form any opinion on it).
My favorite official D&D edition is actually the Rules Cyclopedia (although 5e gives it some competition), and my favorite "D&D" game is Swords & Wizardry (based on Original D&D). But going by sheer popularity and sales, the winner by far is 1E (although some 3.x fans have utterly convinced themselves that one to the 3E flavors was more popular. [rolls eyes] ).

Wrong actually. The biggest selling version of D&D of all time is......

Basic D&D the B part of BECMI. That red box sold 1-1.5 million copies more than the 3.0, 3.5 and Pathfinder PHB//core rules put togather. The biggest selling adventure of all time is Keep on the Borderlands (because it was bundled in the red box).

1E beat but Basic and took its thunder but Basis was also the longest lating in print version of D&D (1977-1996). Early 1E print runs were 40k and there were 17 print runs of the 1E PHB IIRC not all of them were 40k. The height of D&D's popularity (82-83) was driven by the Red Box, 1E was smaller than Basic at the time. The bubble burst in 1984 with sales collapsing by 30% (insttead of anticipated double digit growth, TSRhad expanded to 300+ employees) which lead to TSR almost going bankrupt, Gary Gygax leaving at the end of 85 and she whoo can not be named entering the company.D&D sales peaked at 27 million in sales which is about 50 million these days adjusted for inflation.

Source. Sharon Appelcine and that D&D book whose name I always forget and some comments by Gary Gygax.

Some other points. In a recent Jeremy Crawford interview it was he who pulled the plug on 4E. Discussions about 5E started in 2010, 5E development begun 2011. 5E development cycle was about the same as 3.0, maybe 6 months longer than 2E. IN August of last year Monte was interviewed on ENworld and he claimed the words "save D&D" were used when they hired him and the D&D market was around a 3rd of the size as it was when 3E was the D&D.

Around 40% it seems went with PF, 33% stuck with Paizo, 5-10% went to retroclones and the rest probably stopped playing. After the bubble burst in 2004 around 33-50% of the 3.0 PHB sales did not translate into core book sales 3.0 outsold 3.5, 3.5 outsold Pathfinder it seems unless PF has sold 100k units in the last year or so. On ENworld someone tracked the number of Amazon sales of 5E and they had sold over 30k on Amazon alone and apparently Amazon accounts for 30% of all book sales so 5E has perhaps sold 100k being generous.

As a presentation last year IIRC numbers presented are 3.0 sold 500k, 3.5 250-30k, PF 250. On ENworld I have seen estimates of 4E selling in the 50-100k range which matches up with Montes 1/3rd the size of 3E claim but the 4E figure was only an estimate, Ryan Dancey has claimed 3.0 sold 300k in the 1st month. How accurate those figures are no idea.

What I do not know is how many 5E starter sets have sold and WoTC is claiming 5E has been their best selling D&D yet.PHB not so much but it would not surprise me if they included the adventures and starter set in that figure to account for new edition sales spikes. Even Mike Mearls has claimed sales after the 1st year matter more though 5E has had a good launch by most accounts.

AD&D/BECMI have sold more copies than the rest of the editions combined though to put things into perspective.

Sales of 2E were not good in the late 90's though so 3.0 did save the hobby as such and it is regarded as the silver age of D&D the golden age being 82/83. We are about due for another big hit so that could be 6E, PF 2.0 or 5E is it keeps up the pace for a couple of years or 3.


So, no one is going to comment on this? No one at all? Come on, guys! I spent, like, an hour finding everything and writing it all out! I had links and everything!

Also fun factoid: Pathfinder is grouped with D&D on Wikipedia.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Zardnaar wrote:

Some other points. In a recent Jeremy Crawford interview it was he who pulled the plug on 4E. Discussions about 5E started in 2010, 5E development begun 2011. 5E development cycle was about the same as 3.0, maybe 6 months longer than 2E. IN August of last year Monte was interviewed on ENworld and he claimed the words "save D&D" were used when they hired him and the D&D market was around a 3rd of the size as it was when 3E was the D&D.

Around 40% it seems went with PF, 33% stuck with Paizo, 5-10% went to retroclones and the rest probably stopped playing. After the bubble burst in 2004 around 33-50% of the 3.0 PHB sales did not translate into core book sales 3.0 outsold 3.5, 3.5 outsold Pathfinder it seems unless PF has sold 100k units in the last year or so. On ENworld someone tracked the number of Amazon sales of 5E and they had sold over 30k on Amazon alone and apparently Amazon accounts for 30% of all book sales so 5E has perhaps sold 100k being generous.

As a presentation last year IIRC numbers presented are 3.0 sold 500k, 3.5 250-30k, PF 250. On ENworld I have seen estimates of 4E selling in the 50-100k range which matches up with Montes 1/3rd the size of 3E claim but the 4E figure was only an estimate, Ryan Dancey has claimed 3.0 sold 300k in the 1st month. How accurate those figures are no idea.

Do you have a citation for those numbers? I love this stuff and that's far more explicit and concrete than I'm used to. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Tacticslion wrote:
So, no one is going to comment on this? No one at all? Come on, guys! I spent, like, an hour finding everything and writing it all out! I had links and everything!

We're all looking around awkwardly.


Steve Geddes wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
So, no one is going to comment on this? No one at all? Come on, guys! I spent, like, an hour finding everything and writing it all out! I had links and everything!
We're all looking around awkwardly.

Dang it. Doing the worm by myself at the end, was too much, wasn't it? Ah, well. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Adjule wrote:

Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR (and thus, D&D) in 1997. Hasbro purchased Wizards of the Coast in 1998. 2 years later, they released the 3rd edition of D&D.

How long they had been working on 3rd edition before the buyout, I don't know. But the supposed greatest edition of D&D was released under a Hasbro-owned Wizards of the Coast, which spawned Pathfinder.

What? WHAT? WHAAAATTT!!!????

AD&D was definitely NOT released under a Hasbro-owned Wizards of the Coast and I don't think it spawned Pathfinder.

With 25 million (who now mostly don't even play much less participate in the scene, so mostly lapsed) players, I think it FAR outnumbers how many played 3e and it's descendants (wasn't that around 5 million in initial estimates, though it wouldn't surprise me if those numbers are more around 8-10 million these days for all it's history and lapsed players).

Of course, it seems this was already pointed out by Kthulu.

Yes, portions of 2nd edition AD&D were released under a Hasbro-owned Wizards of the Coast. And if you don't think 3rd edition D&D spawned Pathfinder, then I think you need to get your head examined. And I never once claimed that 3rd edition was the greatest edition of D&D.

So people can actually grasp what it is I am trying to say, let me restate it: "But the SUPPOSED greatest edition of D&D (by which I mean 3rd edition, if you subscribe to what so many people on Paizo's forum say, including one such user who says 3rd edition is perfection) was released under a Hasbro-owned Wizards of the Coast, which spawned Pathfinder (a variation on the 3rd edition ruleset)."

And as I already pointed out to a reply to Kthulhu, which he also replied to, I do not believe 3rd edition to be the greatest edition of D&D. To me, that is a tie between 2nd edition AD&D and 5th edition D&D. My exposure to 1st edition AD&D was a 30 minute session during lunchtime in high school, which didn't leave much of any sort of impression on me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I favour 1st edition overall else, then 2nd, then the Red/blue boxes, then PF, then 3.5 then 3.0 and then 4.0. Have no basis yet for 5.0.

The earlier editions to me felt more free flowing. I have a natural aptitude for math (i.e. wound up in a trader in financial markets) but later editions felt to codified with too many bloody modifiers to add in. At the end of my work day, the last thing I need to do is more mental calculations.

Oh yeah, and I loved the early editions adventures better than anything done in 3.0+, In fact, the only people that seemed to put out decent 3.0+ adventures was Eric Mona and crew, which is how I wound up here.

151 to 200 of 384 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Gaming / D&D / 4th Edition / I believe Hasbro will be the downfall of D&D. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.