Do you need Dual Slice for Dex damage?


Rules Questions


I plan on making a Slashing Grace, TWF Daring Champion character, wielding the Scimitar with either a kukri or second scimitar in off-hand.

My question is if I can apply Dex damage to my scimitars, do I need dual slice to apply it for the off-hand? Would it be unbalanced to not require it?


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Your offhand would need to be a scimitar, as well, since SG can only affect one weapon selection and can't be taken twice. Dual Slice is not required, nor should it be given that you'll be taking a -4 penalty to hit with both hands even with TWF.


Slashing Grace actually affects any one-handed slashing weapon for which you have weapon focus, so, you can apply it to multiple weapons. Not to the kukri, of course, since it is light, but it would work on a scimitar with an effortless lace or a pair of sawtooth sabres.

As for the question, I do think that, by the rules, double slice is required. However, I do not think it would be unbalanced to allow it for free with a twf in general. Twf seriously sucks compared to a two-hander in most cases, and it's especially bad for a swashbuckler/daring champion who loses out on precise strike doing it (though, in theory, eventually, your challenge damage should compensate for losing precise strike).


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Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm pretty sure you should need Double Slice for full DEX damage in the offhand, as mplindustries points out. Slashing grace lets you use DEX instead of STR. If your offhand would do 1/2 STR, then it would do 1/2 DEX. Double Slice makes it so your offhand is full STR, so it would be required for full DEX too.


Seems to me that it would.

Slashing Grace says "you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage". I read the "instead" as just meaning you swap the Dex modifier for the Strength modifier. I think all the other normal rules apply.

Normally an off hand weapon adds half Strength to damage, Slashing Grace would just let you use half Dexterity instead.

Sovereign Court

mplindustries wrote:
However, I do not think it would be unbalanced to allow it for free with a twf in general. Twf seriously sucks compared to a two-hander in most cases,

Past the first few levels, TWF actually has the highest DPR of any combat style. Of course, it has disadvantages (Less damage when moving, more trouble with DR, extra expense enchanting two weapons, feat cost etc) - but the raw damage is the highest.

I'm with you that TWF with a Daring Champion is weak though as it gives up Precise Strike - one of the best things about the class. He'd be better off dipping a level into Swash and then go into Fighter, or Samurai if he really wants the challenge ability.

As to whether you need Double Slice for full dex damage in the off-hand? The RAW is debatable, though RAI I'd definitely say yes.


i know its comparing it to a 3rd party feat but deadly agility i believe is the catch all dex to damage feat and it specifies you don't get the bonus when two handing, but don't take the damage penalty when dual wielding

so i think you would need double slice


Serisan wrote:
Your offhand would need to be a scimitar, as well, since SG can only affect one weapon selection and can't be taken twice. Dual Slice is not required, nor should it be given that you'll be taking a -4 penalty to hit with both hands even with TWF.

Why would you not take the -4 penalty for having a one-handed weapon in your off hand? I don't see anything in either Swashbuckler's Finesse or Slashing Grace that changes the normal two-weapon fighting rules.


Daring Champion does mathematically more damage TWFing than with Precise Strike, as long as Challenge is up. There's no question of "making up" for Precise Strike's damage, it's a question of if single-handing's accuracy can make up for the lost damage.

What's better, 4.5 + 4 + levelx2 or (4.5+4+level)x2?

Takes a while to get rolling and you should certainly start with a single weapon until you have a few spare challenges to throw around and cover your core required feats. But in another thread a day or two ago I ran the numbers and you literally needed a negative damage modifier (discounting Challenge/Precise Strike) for single-handing to pull ahead. Even when you had a 50% chance to hit with the single weapon (which translates to a 40% chance to hit with TWF, assuming you're smart enough to get things down to -2/-2).


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:

Slashing Grace actually affects any one-handed slashing weapon for which you have weapon focus, so, you can apply it to multiple weapons.

Slashing Grace wrote:

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword).

Seems pretty clear to me that it only impacts a single weapon type for which you possess Weapon Focus.


So, the question I have now is, how did I misread this so wildly?


Serisan wrote:
Your offhand would need to be a scimitar, as well, since SG can only affect one weapon selection and can't be taken twice. Dual Slice is not required, nor should it be given that you'll be taking a -4 penalty to hit with both hands even with TWF.

Why can't you take Slashing Grace twice and apply it to a different weapon each time?

Most of the "specific weapon" feats let you take the feat multiple times and apply each one to a different weapon. I don't see anything that prevents this one from acting the same way. Unless you're assuming that unless a feat retains the original wording of Weapon Focus ("you can gain this feat multiple times"), that you can't. The way I read it, the important part of that statement is "its effects do not stack".

Otherwise, that means that no one can ever get Point Blank Master, Close Quarters Thrower, Deadly Stroke, Penetrating Strike, Ranged Study, etc. with more than one weapon.


No double slice is not needed. It would not even do anything because it specifically calls out strength. If it used something generic such as "modifier" then it could apply to any attribute.

Sovereign Court

kestral287 wrote:


What's better, 4.5 + 4 + levelx2 or (4.5+4+level)x2?

The latter is better if you -

1. Ignore TWF penalties. (Cavaliers are among the least accurate martial classes to begin with.)

2. Ignore the feat cost.

3. Ignore the additional enchantment costs. (your weapons will be a point or two behind a single one)

4. Ignore the defense loss. (no buckler - eventually a 6AC point loss)

5. Ignore the limitations of challenges.

Like I said - it's not terrible - but dipping Swash and going into a different class is far more potent for dex TWF builds.


TWF with the Shield Champion is crazy. One shield gives you AC and ignores the two weapon fighting penalties and gives bonuses to hit and damage (level 11) cost half price.

So:

1: it ignores
2: all free feats
3: it is half the cost of 1 weapon
4: there is no defense cost. And the gold cost is free if you count it as a weapon cost from 3.
5: ignores limitation of challenges.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
kestral287 wrote:


What's better, 4.5 + 4 + levelx2 or (4.5+4+level)x2?

The latter is better if you -

1. Ignore TWF penalties. (Cavaliers are among the least accurate martial classes to begin with.)

2. Ignore the feat cost.

3. Ignore the additional enchantment costs. (your weapons will be a point or two behind a single one)

4. Ignore the defense loss. (no buckler - eventually a 6AC point loss)

5. Ignore the limitations of challenges.

Like I said - it's not terrible - but dipping Swash and going into a different class is far more potent for dex TWF builds.

Points 2 and 5 were explicitly covered in the post you stated.

Point one is Order dependent. Dragon solves it, giving them an accuracy boost on par with the Slayer's (marginally ahead, but marginally enough that parity is a more fair statement at the common levels). Slayers are typically seen as a good TWF class, from everything I've seen.

Point three is one I usually address, but is functionally similar to point 2/5. My apologies for not noting that one.

I don't consider point four all that significant honestly, but I can see how one would. if six AC matters that much, sure.


wraithstrike wrote:
No double slice is not needed. It would not even do anything because it specifically calls out strength. If it used something generic such as "modifier" then it could apply to any attribute.

I'm not sure I follow: Are you saying that even it a character took Double Slice, they still wouldn't get 1x modifier on their off hand?


Wraithstrike's point is that since Double Slice explicitly states it jumps your Str to 1x, and you're not using Str but Dex, it does nothing.

The corollary to this is that he believes Dex-to-Damage with TWF automatically gives you 1x Dex with main and off hands alike.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
However, I do not think it would be unbalanced to allow it for free with a twf in general. Twf seriously sucks compared to a two-hander in most cases,
Past the first few levels, TWF actually has the highest DPR of any combat style. Of course, it has disadvantages (Less damage when moving, more trouble with DR, extra expense enchanting two weapons, feat cost etc) - but the raw damage is the highest.

In all my analysis of TWF vs THF, this is not true. TWF is horrible compared to TWF for all kinds of reasons. TWF starts to pull even or even ahead when each weapon hit has a tremendous amount +DMG modifiers. For example, a high level rogue TWF with 6d6 sneak attack, two identical weapons for which she has weapon focus, finesse, and the agile quality with Double Slice is probably going to out do most THF...in that specific situation where Sneak attack is being applied..

I will say the agile quality goes a LONG way in leveling the play field for dex based fighters, but in the absence of that quality and something like sneak attack, TWF does poorly in the damage department unless you have very low AC targets.

Sovereign Court

N N 959 wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
However, I do not think it would be unbalanced to allow it for free with a twf in general. Twf seriously sucks compared to a two-hander in most cases,
Past the first few levels, TWF actually has the highest DPR of any combat style. Of course, it has disadvantages (Less damage when moving, more trouble with DR, extra expense enchanting two weapons, feat cost etc) - but the raw damage is the highest.

In all my analysis of TWF vs THF, this is not true. TWF is horrible compared to TWF for all kinds of reasons. TWF starts to pull even or even ahead when each weapon hit has a tremendous amount +DMG modifiers. For example, a high level rogue TWF with 6d6 sneak attack, two identical weapons for which she has weapon focus, finesse, and the agile quality with Double Slice is probably going to out do most THF...in that specific situation where Sneak attack is being applied..

It's not just true of rogues (though probably moreso there) - it's true of any class with decent static damage modifiers - like fighters (moreso for other classes).

For example - for simplicity - a level 10 fighter with strength 24/gloves of dueling/either a +3 two-handed or two +2 weapons -

Greatsword (with PA) - +23/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Str + 3 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 3 PA) for 2d6+28 damage each (3 weapon + 10 Str + 4 training + 2 spec + 9 PA).

Two shortswords - +23/+23/+18/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Str + 2 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 2 TWF) for 1d8+15 damage each (2 weapon + 7 Str + 4 training + 2 spec)

Rather obviously - the TWF has superior DPR. The accuracy is identical, and they do slightly more damage, and the above is taking into account the higher cost of enchanting two weapons vs one.

Of note - TWF does have the disadvantages I mentioned before (feat cost/DR issues etc). But the actual DPR difference only grows as you level further. I chose level 10 as it allowed THF with PA to have identical accuracy to TWF with a point less enchantment, thereby simplifying the comparison.


Gwen Smith wrote:
Serisan wrote:
Your offhand would need to be a scimitar, as well, since SG can only affect one weapon selection and can't be taken twice. Dual Slice is not required, nor should it be given that you'll be taking a -4 penalty to hit with both hands even with TWF.

Why can't you take Slashing Grace twice and apply it to a different weapon each time?

Most of the "specific weapon" feats let you take the feat multiple times and apply each one to a different weapon. I don't see anything that prevents this one from acting the same way. Unless you're assuming that unless a feat retains the original wording of Weapon Focus ("you can gain this feat multiple times"), that you can't. The way I read it, the important part of that statement is "its effects do not stack".

Otherwise, that means that no one can ever get Point Blank Master, Close Quarters Thrower, Deadly Stroke, Penetrating Strike, Ranged Study, etc. with more than one weapon.

You can select it twice but you might not be able to use it on both weapons at the same time. The interpretation of this line
crb wrote:
Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

can cause problems. I wouldn't call it stacking, I'd say the benefits (DEX to damage) are parallel since they aren't both applying to the same attack, but others might consider it stacking the benefit. Best to get an advance ruling if you cannot bring yourself to avoid the issue.


I dont see how selecting it twice is any more of an issue than selecting weapon focus twice.


wraithstrike wrote:
I dont see how selecting it twice is any more of an issue than selecting weapon focus twice.

I'm in the camp that thinks you can't take a feat twice unless it specifically says you can. But a character could still get Dex to damage with a scimitar through Dervish Dance, a Rapier through Fencing Grace, and a third weapon through Slashing Grace if they wanted to spend that many feats.

And it seems that the Unchained Rogue has a class ability to get Dex to damage with three different weapons.


wraithstrike wrote:
I dont see how selecting it twice is any more of an issue than selecting weapon focus twice.

weapon focus includes the line: "Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon." While I see no obvious reason the same logic should not apply, the fact that weapon focus includes the line and slashing grace does not must mean something. I chose to believe that it means the people who wrote and edited the feat omitted it as an oversight. Others might have more faith in the infallibility of the developers and chose to believe that the omission is deliberate, in which case the use of exegesis to determine what the omission means can produce results beyond what my philosophy encompasses.


Gisher wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I dont see how selecting it twice is any more of an issue than selecting weapon focus twice.

I'm in the camp that thinks you can't take a feat twice unless it specifically says you can. But a character could still get Dex to damage with a scimitar through Dervish Dance, a Rapier through Fencing Grace, and a third weapon through Slashing Grace if they wanted to spend that many feats.

And it seems that the Unchained Rogue has a class ability to get Dex to damage with three different weapons.

That is the rules. I assumed the other poster had read the feat, and it had said it could be selected twice. If that text is not there then it can't be selected twice. I was about to point out that it would be pointless to say the feat could be selected twice, but then say you can't use it with two weapons.

So if the feat is not saying "you can select me twice" then you can't, and that should kill this sub-topic.

edit: There is no rule saying you can't select a feat twice or at least I can't find it right now. I thought there was.


cnetarian wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I dont see how selecting it twice is any more of an issue than selecting weapon focus twice.
weapon focus includes the line: "Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon." While I see no obvious reason the same logic should not apply, the fact that weapon focus includes the line and slashing grace does not must mean something. I chose to believe that it means the people who wrote and edited the feat omitted it as an oversight. Others might have more faith in the infallibility of the developers and chose to believe that the omission is deliberate, in which case the use of exegesis to determine what the omission means can produce results beyond what my philosophy encompasses.

The fact that they don't say you can select it multiple times and apply it to different weapons leads me to think it was never the intent of the rules to allow you to do so, so maybe it takes a specific rule to allow a feat to be selected more than once.


wraithstrike wrote:
cnetarian wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I dont see how selecting it twice is any more of an issue than selecting weapon focus twice.
weapon focus includes the line: "Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon." While I see no obvious reason the same logic should not apply, the fact that weapon focus includes the line and slashing grace does not must mean something. I chose to believe that it means the people who wrote and edited the feat omitted it as an oversight. Others might have more faith in the infallibility of the developers and chose to believe that the omission is deliberate, in which case the use of exegesis to determine what the omission means can produce results beyond what my philosophy encompasses.
The fact that they don't say you can select it multiple times and apply it to different weapons leads me to think it was never the intent of the rules to allow you to do so, so maybe it takes a specific rule to allow a feat to be selected more than once.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I chose to consider the omission to be a scrivener's error and would have no problem with selecting the feat twice for different weapons. The fact that two reasonable people (you've never struck me as particularly unreasonable and, of course, I am the very soul of reason) can see the same thing and come to different conclusions about what it means is what causes me to recommend getting an advance ruling.


Yeah an FAQ would not be a bad idea. We could also ask Mark in his thread to see if that was the intent since I think he helped work on the book.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
However, I do not think it would be unbalanced to allow it for free with a twf in general. Twf seriously sucks compared to a two-hander in most cases,
Past the first few levels, TWF actually has the highest DPR of any combat style. Of course, it has disadvantages (Less damage when moving, more trouble with DR, extra expense enchanting two weapons, feat cost etc) - but the raw damage is the highest.

In all my analysis of TWF vs THF, this is not true. TWF is horrible compared to TWF for all kinds of reasons. TWF starts to pull even or even ahead when each weapon hit has a tremendous amount +DMG modifiers. For example, a high level rogue TWF with 6d6 sneak attack, two identical weapons for which she has weapon focus, finesse, and the agile quality with Double Slice is probably going to out do most THF...in that specific situation where Sneak attack is being applied..

It's not just true of rogues (though probably moreso there) - it's true of any class with decent static damage modifiers - like fighters (moreso for other classes).

For example - for simplicity - a level 10 fighter with strength 24/gloves of dueling/either a +3 two-handed or two +2 weapons -

Greatsword (with PA) - +23/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Str + 3 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 3 PA) for 2d6+28 damage each (3 weapon + 10 Str + 4 training + 2 spec + 9 PA).

Two shortswords - +23/+23/+18/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Str + 2 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 2 TWF) for 1d8+15 damage each (2 weapon + 7 Str + 4 training + 2 spec)

Rather obviously - the TWF has superior DPR. The accuracy is identical, and they do slightly more damage, and the above is taking into account the higher cost of enchanting two weapons vs one.

Of note - TWF does have the disadvantages I mentioned before (feat cost/DR issues etc). But the actual DPR difference only grows as you level further. I chose level 10 as it allowed THF with PA to have...

how will haste affect these numbers?


A single two-handed attack tends to do more damage than a single one handed attack so it would help two-hander more.


Yes and so will AOOs and moving. I was thinking if it would put THF ahead of TWF.


The main problems with TWF is not DPR, because TWF can outdamage 2HF at high levels. The main problems is the amount of feats it requires and the DEX requirement.

I often aim to make a 2WF character, but end up making a 2HF instead because of the feat cost.

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