Our DM is allowing us to Gestalt any combination of Pathfinder class or PRC with any combination of class in 3.5E.
The setting is our group is going to descend into a dungeon that leads them through 4 levels of hell. The difficulty is going to be very high and almost everything is randomly rolled. So it is a mix of premade and roguelike in design. The party members will have no access to stores, but will have the opportunity to craft, enchant, etc. They just require the wits and ingenuity to find those materials and use them properly. We may be allowed to take LA+1 maybe 2 characters with point buy off at level 1. We are rolling our stats and can reroll anything 10 or lower.
So I open this up to the community here. For something of the intended level of difficulty, what do you recommend as the best/most powerful class combinations.
As of now I know of one player in the group who is wanting to be a Synthesist Summoner/Magus. Other than that, no idea. Cheese is welcome and encouraged for this as long as it is legal RAW.
Appreciate the help.
What level?
I did something similar, years ago, and the most important word I see there is 'endless'. So, normal pacing rules are out the window.
My advice is to combine a class with limited resources, like a sorcerer, with a class that can go all day, like a paladin. Any ability that can be done 'at will' is much more valuable as a result, including witch hexes, regular attacks, and skills.
You'll need someone to do battlefield control, someone to do damage, and someone to heal. Someone with skills is also a huge plus, a scout could be lifesaving.
From 3.5, I'd look at warlock for all day blasting, and dragon shaman, for all day (limited) healing. If either group of classes includes tome of Battle classes, those would be good too. Artificers from 3.5 are also super versatile.
Also, mind your saving throws. At most, one weak save, preferably none.
I might be tempted by slayer/warlock, blood rager/war blade, or dragon shaman/paladin.
Last I heard we were starting at level 2.
I seem to recall liking the Factotum class (from Dungeonscape, if memory serves). A lot of flexibility that could be used to back up your main class.
I agree with Anonymous Visitor that a class with at will abilities would be a good idea. Depending on what kind of role you want (tank, backup, healer, spell caster), I'd suggest picking your main class from there and looking at Factotum as the secondary.
Maybe a Halfling Witch that focuses on jinxing and hexes? You can keep doing that over and over to debuff your enemies.
focus on a sniping based ranger, cross classed with ascout, use a greatbow, be a catfolk, take the flaw that boosts your speed by 10' and get boots of striding and springing as soon as you can afford it. VERY soon you will be able to outrun horses while laying down some serious artillery fire power. You will almost never be hit in the open, and focus on keeping your stealth up, to hide up close. I ran one of these until level 15, he got hit one time, the entire campaign :)
Go for TN cleric of nethys / wizard until you can qualify for mystic theurge then MT/ zen archer
Here's a suggestion that's based solely upon play from 1st - 3rd level (campaigns die in my playgroup *easily*), but might work well for ya:
3.5 Warlock/3.5 Marshal
Those are weak classes by PF standards, in my opinion, and somewhat slowly come online for the best effects, but with offense and buffs running as long as the character is conscious, it's pretty good. I hashed out an updated version of the marshal here a handful of weeks back; you could run some of the ideas past your DM for approval.
Even if that upgrade is regarded as too strong (especially given the gestalt aspect), I *love* the idea of running those two classes together. The one time I *did* get to run it, I took my inspiration directly from Cyclops of the X-men (per the comics and X-men: Legends II: The Rise of Apocalypse game, not any whiny, wimpy James Marsden portrayal). Crazy fun, it was. Couple the better feat progression of PF with either of those classes, and you could easily build an archer commander that makes *everything* better for a party. Ranged DPR is maddeningly strong in this format. I don't know if it would ever be a case of overshadowing anyone, since you wouldn't really be a full caster, but buff the melee characters and blast away to your heart's content, and I don't see how it could NOT serve your declared purpose.
Happy hunting!!
Resource management is gonna be important. If you want a reasonable build, slayer/witch is really solid- hexes are virtually an unlimited resources, and studied target can be used as often as you can afford the action, they get full BAB/d10 HD/all good saves/6+ skill points, combat feats and/or other talents, and they're full spellcasters when you really need a spell!
If you want cheesy builds I'll post some later :)
See if you can swing having at will cantrips on the 3.5e classes.
Then grab a level of warmage (just the one level) Get at least 10 cha, and boost int as high as you can, with a nice dex on the side.
Point blank shot at level 1.
1d3+1+int damage with a touch attack each round, and as much staying power as you like.
Not sure what to do with the rest of the build, but it is nice firepower up until level 4 or so. Might build an archer around it, or something. If you have room for 14 or so Cha, something like
Wizard 1/Factotum 3/Warmage 1/Factotum +15//Warmage 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10/wizard +5 might be fun.
Might not be legal in your game, a lot of people like to make houserules about 'sides' - and it uses a double progression PRC.
Important question- are you allowed to enter prestige classes using SLAs? Also, are you using fractional bonuses for BAB, or if either class gains a bonus that level you gain it?
Skald || Summoner is a great mix. Summon your own army, and then buff them as well.
Witch || Bloodrager is probably another one of the top tier gestalts. Full Spellcasting ability with Full BAB, but with the Mad Magic feat, you can cast while raging. Scarred Witch Doctor casts with CON, which gets a rage bonus. There is literally no real downside to this class.
Inquisitor (Sacred Huntsmaster) || Monk (Sohei) is probably my favorite mounted combat build that can get some fairly ludicrous attack bonuses while ensuring that your Animal Companion Mount survives.
Alternatively, an Inquisitor || Gunslinger has Full BAB & saves, with d10 HD as well as the ability to add Bane to Bullets. Silver Gun much?
Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) || Monk (Martial Artist) as well as Bloodrager || Paladin are both self reliant (fatigue-removing) class combos that hold immense physical power, but also a host of useful immunities.
Then you can get into the crazy combinations:
Oracle 4 || Sorcerer 4
Mystic Therge 6 || Magus (Eldritch Scion) 6
Mystic Theurge 9 || Bloodrager 3
Mystic Theurge 10 || Eldritch Knight 1
Oracle 10 || Eldritch Knight 7
You get Full Divine and Arcane Casting off of the same stat (CHA), the ability to add your CHA to anything, including Attack Rolls (Arcane Accuracy) and Shield AC (Spell Shield), to say nothing of saves, initiative, and DEX AC. You could even get CHA as Armor AC with a feat, among other stuff. You have 17 BAB, full progression for your Oracle Curse, and the ability to spellcast while raging (Mad Magic) and while full-attacking (Broad Study).
If you don't mind being evil, you could take a level from Bloodrager and switch it out for a level in the Agent of the Grave PrC. That gives you CHA instead of CON to your HP, if you so want it. Or take a level of Synthesist summoner to completely dump your CON while still making use of rage's con bonus.
Probably the most overall ridiculous build, but there are definitely quite a few close by in power. I wouldn't recommend such a build starting at level 2, though. At that level, you're little better than a single classed spellcaster, only with a few more spells known. Martials and the Summoner class really dominate at earlier levels, so you'll probably have more luck with the combinations at the top.
Gunslinger/ inquisitor is a great combo... If you can easily get ammo or gunpowder... without access to that its going to be tough going.
While I wait for answers to my questions, here's another simple build...
Sorc//oracle 1-4
Mystic theurge//paladin 5-14
Loremaster//paladin 15-20 (here's some cheese- use the +1 to any caster class to keep leveling your MT progression)
End up with 2 full caster progressions, plus paladin survivability (and a +19 BAB)
I'm impatient, so here's another build I like that doesn't require those questions to be answered... The dragonknight:
Paladin//sorcerer 1-5
Dragon disciple//abjurant champion 6-8
DD//paladin 9
DD//AC 10
DD//paladin 11-13
DD//AC 14
DD//paladin 15
Paladin//sorcerer 16-20
Full BAB, full caster progression, full bloodline abilities, all abjurant champion abilities, all dragon disciple abilities, and 15 levels worth of paladin abilities.
Be careful, the antipaladin doesn't get to use ToC as a swift action like a paladin can...
Using 3.x opens up lots of interesting options... The book of swords classes are really good, and warblade especially is a great option.
Warblade//incarnate is nice because the incarnum powers are mostly constant and the warblade abilities are very easy to replenish, they have good stat synergy too.
Warblade//arcanist [blade adept] has to worry a little more about resource management, but they get a blackblade which is really handy when there are no stores (plus they're full casters)
Warblade//magus [bladebound, kensai] still has resource management issues but they have great stat synergy and keep the black blade.
Zen Archer/Inquisitor is very good. Max out WIS, have a decent STR and CON, DEX of 13, dump CHA completely. One you hit 5th level and get access to ban your damage will be ridiculous. Flurry of Bane is insane.
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Not as strong as some other suggestions, but Summoner/Cavalier is a decent setup. Solves the problem of having an unintelligent, overly mundane mount. Plus, you can straight up bring 2 extra bodies to the field. For Maximum Shenanigans, get Eldrich heritage for that (Improved) familiar. And don't forget both you and your Eidolon can both take Leadership, and the Eidolon can ALSO eventually take Eldrich Heritage, and your cohorts etc etc......
Just a warning. Double check with your GM before combining a prestige class with another one when using gestalt. Also keep in mind that, if memory serves, it at least suggests against, if not flat out forbids, allowing the combined class prestige classes (such as mystic theurge, eldritch knight, and arcane trickster).
Just a warning. Double check with your GM before combining a prestige class with another one when using gestalt. Also keep in mind that, if memory serves, it at least suggests against, if not flat out forbids, allowing the combined class prestige classes (such as mystic theurge, eldritch knight, and arcane trickster).
So far he says its ok.
My rolls are: 16,15,13,12,11,11
Important question- are you allowed to enter prestige classes using SLAs? Also, are you using fractional bonuses for BAB, or if either class gains a bonus that level you gain it?
Not sure on the SLA's, but we are going if either class gains the bonus you gain it rules.
Just a warning. Double check with your GM before combining a prestige class with another one when using gestalt. Also keep in mind that, if memory serves, it at least suggests against, if not flat out forbids, allowing the combined class prestige classes (such as mystic theurge, eldritch knight, and arcane trickster).So far he says its ok.
My rolls are: 16,15,13,12,11,11
In that case:
Kobold Sorcerer (Draconic bloodline)//Oracle (take the Battle mystery with the Skill at Arms revelation) 4/Dragon Disciple//Eldritch Knight X(you'll need the Scaled Disciple feat for this to work)
Your Dragon Disciple caster levels would stack with your Oracle class
Your Dragon Disciple levels would stack with your Sorcerer bloodline
Your Eldritch Knight caster levels would stack with your Sorcerer class
and Eldritch Knight BAB/bonus feat goodness
Or maybe take Arcane Archer instead of Eldritch Knight if you'd rather be ranged.
Also since we are going to be dungeon delving the entire time, that is terrain. So hallways, rooms, with occasional more open areas. Any setting for feats/whathaveyou is ok as well...anything from Dragonlance to Eberron, etc. No evil character alignments, but races we are ok with whatever up to +2 LA.