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Can you trip a riding person?
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Wouldn't that be called "pulling a rider from his mount"? No only possible, but a standard tactic.
Wouldn't that be called "pulling a rider from his mount"? No only possible, but a standard tactic.
Wouldn't that be grapple? Or maybe Ki Throw?
That is where the problem lies. What is the rule for doing dismounting someone?
Mechanically, how would this be modeled? Would it be a trip attack against the rider? It would seem that the rider's ride skill should factor into that somehow. You can certainly trip the mount, and hope he falls out of the saddle. Maybe you could grapple them?
RAW, I don't see that you can do this.
Does that mean RAW, you fall prone, but stay on top of the horse?
Using normal trip, can you move a person from one square to another?
If you can't move them out of a square, where do they go prone?
Even if they DIE they do not automatically fall prone while riding a horse. There are a lot of rules problems involved in something that should be allowed.
Wouldn't that be called "pulling a rider from his mount"? No only possible, but a standard tactic.Wouldn't that be grapple? Or maybe Ki Throw?
No, and no, respectively. Trip imposes a condition -- (lying) prone. Grapple imposes a condition -- grappled. Pulling a rider from the saddle imposes the first but not the second. And, of course ki throw isn't appropriate because this tactic is available to anyone without special training (e.g. feat requirement).
If you can't move them out of a square, where do they go prone?
On the ground.
Does that mean RAW, you fall prone, but stay on top of the horse?
No. RAW is silent on the issue.
And what if she is riding a flying Mount?
I FAQd it.
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And what if she is riding a flying Mount?
She falls further. Why is this even a question?
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Can you trip a riding person? Trip is a combat maneuver to knock a target prone. The target is riding, meaning sitting down. You cannot trip the person who is riding. Tripping their mount, provided it is an animal and not more than one size category larger than the one attempting the trip is a possibility. The rider would then be allowed a ride check to land without harm and not fall prone. Of course if the person riding is being an idiot and standing in the saddle, trip away.
Of course, all of this is dependent upon the GM.
Can you trip a riding person? Trip is a combat maneuver to knock a target prone. The target is riding, meaning sitting down.
Right. And if you want to move someone from sitting down, on a mount, to prone, on the ground (a very common and useful tactic, historically) trip is the appropriate maneuver.
On the ground.
If you can't move them out of a square, where do they go prone?
That is cute. But moving someone requires a reposition, bull rush, move a grapple. And none of those people are assumed to have anything anchoring them, like their legs wrapped around a horse (which can also move) and their feet in stirrups dangling approx 3-4' off of the ground.
How do you pull someone with a trip? It has been described by the Devs as sweeping a leg out from under someone. That is completely the opposite of grabbing someone (grapple) and moving them (grapple or Ki Throw or reposition or bull rush).
When mounted via horse, one takes up 4 squares. In the scenario where you can trip someone off a horse, who decides what square they end up in? Even if someone chooses one, it would not be a legal square because two creatures cannot take up the same square just because one is prone.
Ki throw is appropriate because it allows you to change the square a person occupies, which would be required since two creatures cannot take up the same square just because one is prone.
So again, what seems so simple is not due to how ALL the rules are combined, not just the cherry-picked ones.
I think it should be a valid tactic. I do not think there is a simple answer and I especially do not think trip is it.
That is cute. But moving someone requires a reposition, bull rush, move a grapple.On the ground.
If you can't move them out of a square, where do they go prone?
... or a trip. "Down" is, in fact, a direction.
... or a trip. "Down" is, in fact, a direction.That is cute. But moving someone requires a reposition, bull rush, move a grapple.On the ground.
If you can't move them out of a square, where do they go prone?
Except, as noted and ignored, down is not a valid square as it would be occupied by a horse.
But ignoring everything that doesn't fit one's preconceived conclusion is a valid way to debate in the 21st century.
"Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped."
While it doesn't say it in so many words, it seems to me the idea here is that if you aren't getting around on your legs, you aren't a valid target for trip.
Dismounting a rider should be a valid strategy, but I would think a reposition or bull rush maneuver would be more appropriate.
Can you trip a riding person? Trip is a combat maneuver to knock a target prone. The target is riding, meaning sitting down.Right. And if you want to move someone from sitting down, on a mount, to prone, on the ground (a very common and useful tactic, historically) trip is the appropriate maneuver.
I disagree that trip is the appropriate maneuver because the target is sitting. Granted, I am interpreting the description of the trip maneuver as an attack that targets an opponents legs in order to knock them prone. If you sitting, you're not standing, thus, can't be tripped as though you didn't have legs. At least, that is how I see it and by no means indicative of anyone else. Just how I see it and would rule it.
Except, as noted and ignored, down is not a valid square as it would be occupied by a horse.... or a trip. "Down" is, in fact, a direction.That is cute. But moving someone requires a reposition, bull rush, move a grapple.On the ground.
If you can't move them out of a square, where do they go prone?
The rules describe what happens next: "Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer."
So in this case, the rider would fall behind or adjacent to the horse. Which is exactly what realism would suggest.
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You can't trip someone that is flying.She falls further. Why is this even a question?And what if she is riding a flying Mount?
So you can't trip the mount. Doesn't say you can't trip the rider.
I disagree that trip is the appropriate maneuver because the target is sitting. Granted, I am interpreting the description of the trip maneuver as an attack that targets an opponents legs in order to knock them prone.Can you trip a riding person? Trip is a combat maneuver to knock a target prone. The target is riding, meaning sitting down.Right. And if you want to move someone from sitting down, on a mount, to prone, on the ground (a very common and useful tactic, historically) trip is the appropriate maneuver.
There are lots of ways to trip that don't involve leg sweeps. Try "clotheslining" them, for example. In fact, that's a metaphor that describes a very common way of dismounting someone.
3.5 Apparently had a tripping rule in the core for mounted combatants. Pathfinder, interestingly, does not.
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By RAW I have nothing, by RAI for combat maneuvers and a little houserulery, I would be inclined to treat this as a generic combat maneuver, so your CMB vs the riders CMD, and the rider gets an AO (assuming they threaten.) If I wanted to go further I might give a rider with mounted combat a +2 to their CMD, perhaps a +4 if they have enough ranks in ride (like 10.) Or a ride check to land on their feet instead of prone.
Alternatively the reposition combat maneuvers would cover these cases.
I'm a big proponent of these maneuvers feats being collapsed into 2-3 feat trees. One feat tree for maneuvers with power attack as a prerequisite, one for maneuvers with combat expertise as a prereq, and one for maneuvers with improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite. I would be inclined to offset the better feats by spreading them over 3 feats instead of two. The first feat abolishing the attack of opportunity, the second giving +2 CMB/CMD and the third giving the +2 CMB and exposing the victim to AoO.
Like other aspects of the mounted combat rules we seem to have a thing here. If tripping is no issue on a mounted character why do we have feats like unseat? In my game i thing the ridning skill of the guy being pulled from his horse Will have a chance to stand in for Bab and dex on the CMD for this if ever i get another ridning PC.
It doesn't say you can either, therefore his question.So you can't trip the mount. Doesn't say you can't trip the rider.
You can't trip someone that is flying.
The rider isn't flying.
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Like other aspects of the mounted combat rules we seem to have a thing here. If tripping is no issue on a mounted character why do we have feats like unseat? In my game i thing the ridning skill of the guy being pulled from his horse Will have a chance to stand in for Bab and dex on the CMD for this if ever i get another ridning PC.
Unseat seems to be the perfect fit, although a simple bullrush sounds like it will do the trick, just unseat lets you do damage while also ejecting the rider.
The Unseat feat uses Bull Rush to take a rider off of the horse.
3.5 Apparently had a tripping rule in the core for mounted combatants. Pathfinder, interestingly, does not.Indeed, I believe it was removed due to referencing the opposed Dex or Str check, which was replaced by the CMB/D mechanic.
Actually it was opposed with a Ride check. But if they wanted the trip part to stand they could have just changed the mechanic. With it being in 3.5 and explicitly removed from Pathfinder, I think it is safe (not guaranteed) to say tripping is not the proper maneuver.
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The Unseat feat uses Bull Rush to take a rider off of the horse.
It removes the rider and does damage, which is president enough for me to say that a bullrush would unseat the rider without the damage effect, or a reposition manuever. Basically any manuever that moves a target, which is a bigger set of manuevers, but probably doesn't include trip.
Reposition cannot be used since it cannot put folks in dangerous places like where they would Fall.
Reposition cannot be used since it cannot put folks in dangerous places like where they would Fall.
Reposition them one square down on the ground then. They can move through an ally :)
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Reposition cannot be used since it cannot put folks in dangerous places like where they would Fall.Reposition them one square down on the ground then. They can move through an ally :)
When you are on a mount are you understood to be in the square above the ground, or in the square your mount exists in? In either case 1 square diagonal and down is a "safe" move.
Reposition cannot be used since it cannot put folks in dangerous places like where they would Fall.
Why would they fall? Falling off a mount, while doing something else or your mount dying, can cause falling damage, but getting off (or presumably being pulled off) doesn't.
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There are lots of ways to trip that don't involve leg sweeps. Try "clotheslining" them, for example. In fact, that's a metaphor that describes a very common way of dismounting someone.I disagree that trip is the appropriate maneuver because the target is sitting. Granted, I am interpreting the description of the trip maneuver as an attack that targets an opponents legs in order to knock them prone.Can you trip a riding person? Trip is a combat maneuver to knock a target prone. The target is riding, meaning sitting down.Right. And if you want to move someone from sitting down, on a mount, to prone, on the ground (a very common and useful tactic, historically) trip is the appropriate maneuver.
If "clotheslining" is your basis for allowing someone to trip something that's mounted/seated, then I can only conclude that you know neither definition to trip nor the definition to clothesline...
That's like saying hitting someone with a sword is the exact same thing as hitting them with a fireball since they both do HP damage.
It hasn't come up for me before. I would be tempted to allow any of the three to work (if the attacker can reach) since the rules are silent on the issue. I would think the defender would get the higher ground advantage. I would also probably allow using a ride check in place of the CMD or maybe a good ride check result would give a bonus to CMD.
When you are on a mount are you understood to be in the square above the ground, or in the square your mount exists in? In either case 1 square diagonal and down is a "safe" move.Reposition cannot be used since it cannot put folks in dangerous places like where they would Fall.Reposition them one square down on the ground then. They can move through an ally :)
You exist in all squares that the mount exists in. That was one of the jokes in the above statement. (another being moved through your horse)
I think we will use trip in my games
I use the trip or grapple mechanics, but it would be nice to have an official rule. It should probably be stated as "Are trip or grapple possible methods to unmount/unseat someone from a mount?