Put it this way Pan; there's a scene near the end where my daughter, my hubby, and I all went
I think you'll agree completely.
Meanwhile, I found this and agree with most of the points.
Especially the first. I'd have been all
How can you say it's a movie you internalize when you just said you have to completely ignore any and all character motivations to enjoy the movie?
I don't think those are mutually exclusive. Maybe I need better words for what I mean to say. I definitely don't mean that it's a thinking person's movie--at all--but that it's a movie of which the viewer never feels s/he is a part.
That's what I think Disney-Marvel's great at doing--making us feel like we're palling around with the Avengers. Like we're right there with them, sharing their struggles and joys and laughs and losses. We share a world with them, mostly. We travel to real places and even go so far as to wage war in New York City, for example. This allows us to "enter" the movies: call out to the screen, laugh with the characters, believe it's "real" insomuch as we can believe that.
DoJ, on the other hand, is always an object. We never forget, are never allowed to forget, that we're watching a movie. We're looking at an object. We'll never become involved with those characters or their world, which explicitly isn't ours but the fictional substitutes of Metropolis, Gotham. The characters remain separate from us, and we're not allowed to laugh with them or interact. We can't join them; we must wait until they're presented to us for examination. Makes for a very different experience.
I always had Batman when discussing this hypothetical matchup, so I guess I was validated, lol.
Awww, man, bringing this up is never a good idea. Nothing starts comic book nerd-fights faster than this sort of thing.
Personally, I didn't see it as much of a fight.
Batman is all like "I am going to kill you now!!" and is trying to straight-up murder Supes after making him weaker and trying to humiliate him.
Superman is all like "I don't wanna fight you, I need your help!" and is trying to get Batman to see sense (which even Alfred failed at) the entire time.
The only reasons Bats doesn't get rightfully creamed is because Supes isn't trying to kill him and is thus holding the Idiot Ball in the fight.
Spiral Ninja, thanks for that link. I missed some of those. That WAS a pretty good list of 'WTF Moments'.
No, Nuclear ICBM's can't hit people-sized objects in space. Or any objects in space, for that matter, their guidance systems and programming simply aren't made for such a thing. Incidentally, nuclear explosions outside an atmosphere are remarkably less impressive than ones inside it.
A couple don't make sense, though.
Aquaman blowing up the RPV camera sub makes perfect sense. He's claiming his territory and telling people to GTFO. He makes a point of just smashing the camera and not killing the 'parent' sub, so it's all good. He didn't exactly start with an attitude of "Friendly" toward surface-dwellers, after all.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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So if Batman's motivation in going after Superman is "he's powerful enough to kill everyone, I have to pre-emptively take him out" why didn't Batman kill the president of the US because he can launch nukes all over the world? (and every other world leader who has nukes).
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S+&$, I must be the ONLY ONE who liked Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor. Everyone seems to hate him.
I did not hate him. I just think they injected a little too much Joker into him. He should have been far less.....hyperactive might be a good word. It was like he was off his meds or something.
But he still got the arrogant douchebag part down pat. And his overarching plot to destroy Supes was pretty good, if a little convoluted.
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I wonder how much of Luthor's motivations ended up on the cutting room floor.
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So if Batman's motivation in going after Superman is "he's powerful enough to kill everyone, I have to pre-emptively take him out" why didn't Batman kill the president of the US because he can launch nukes all over the world? (and every other world leader who has nukes).
Haven't seen the movie, and everything I hear indicates that I shouldn't so I'm likely to skip it, but off the top of my head,
1) You can't really "kill the president" - you can kill whoever is holding the position at the moment, but people will just elect a new one. Essentially, violence can never solve this problem, not at the scale a single person is capable of.
2) While a president can theoretically set the world aflame, there's always a chance people around him could do something about it, intercede in time. If superman decides to sink every single landmass in the world, he can probably do it and shrug off any attempt to get in his way. His power is not an imaginary thing bestowed by people who choose to give it to him, it is an inherent trait. That is different, I think.
3) Batman Vs. The President is a far less catchy title. Batman Vs. Trump might have done it, maybe, but I kinda hope we never get to that point, if only because if we do I have a suspicion that Trump would make sure that the script has him winning.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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So if Batman's motivation in going after Superman is "he's powerful enough to kill everyone, I have to pre-emptively take him out" why didn't Batman kill the president of the US because he can launch nukes all over the world? (and every other world leader who has nukes).Haven't seen the movie, and everything I hear indicates that I shouldn't so I'm likely to skip it, but off the top of my head,
1) You can't really "kill the president" - you can kill whoever is holding the position at the moment, but people will just elect a new one. Essentially, violence can never solve this problem, not at the scale a single person is capable of.
2) While a president can theoretically set the world aflame, there's always a chance people around him could do something about it, intercede in time. If superman decides to sink every single landmass in the world, he can probably do it and shrug off any attempt to get in his way. His power is not an imaginary thing bestowed by people who choose to give it to him, it is an inherent trait. That is different, I think.
3) Batman Vs. The President is a far less catchy title. Batman Vs. Trump might have done it, maybe, but I kinda hope we never get to that point, if only because if we do I have a suspicion that Trump would make sure that the script has him winning.
I completely get what you're saying, my comment was more to poke at Batman's motivations being pretty dumb - there's lots of threats that could kill everyone, and he hasn't taken action to kill them. He waits for someone be commit a crime first, he's not the thought police and this isn't the minority report.
Batman vs. Trump would be pretty cool though, at least at entertaining as Superman vs. Muhammad Ali was.
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I agree with Hama on Lex.
My main problem with Luthor was that he was goofy. You have this super serious, grimdark film involving worldshaking events and forcing the two greatest DC superheroes into a fight. The tone is dark, the action is done in the literal dark, and there's almost no humor the entire time...
...and then you have Luthor running around like an ADHD autistic kid on a sugar rush. The guy who is supposed to be the mastermind orchestrating it all.
It wasn't until someone mentioned the Joker that... yeah... HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE JOKER. Pick a new guy to be Lex, give all the science-y scenes to him, and all social plot-moving stuff to whoever is to play the new Joker. Then the goofy weirdness makes sense instead of jarringly not fitting in to the rest of the film. Or just simply make him the Joker and replace the sciency bits with a minion. Perhaps even have that minion be Lex, who snuck on to the team to study the alien tech. Whatever.
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JoelF847, don't try logic on this movie, it won't work. As soon as Batman says the equivalent of "I have to kill this guy, there's no other option!" he's already ceased to be Batman. Even in storylines where the bad guys steal his plans to neutralize the Justice League, every single one of them has some 'wiggle room' time to allow him to fix the situation before it turns lethal in case he made a mistake (and, to be fair, he never thought he had to use those plans at all).
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Mark Radle, that's nearly three hours of video. Can you sort of cheat and give us the times we should skip to for the important bits? Or is that just to be informational in general?
Sounds worse than Alien vs. Predator!
I enjoyed the first one of those, but the second one was pure dreck.
If BvS is worse than Alien v Predator 2 (requiem), then that's pretty bad.
Sounds worse than Alien vs. Predator!
I enjoyed the first one of those, but the second one was pure dreck.
If BvS is worse than Alien v Predator 2 (requiem), then that's pretty bad.
No... Oh, gods... No. It's a weak movie that would be very forgettable if it were not about Batman and Superman, but it's not horrible.
It is not. It is quite good really.
Well... I wouldn't go that far.
It's mediocre at best.
But I guess we have no choice but agree to disagree...
It's bad, by any fairly reasonable metric of filmmaking, but it's also enjoyable. IMO.
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WOW.
BIG drop between Friday and Monday
Lower than estimated gross (not by much though). Still this opening weekend is nothing to sneeze at but it needs to hit close to a billion for it to be an actual success considering the budget and the amount spent on marketing (if the rumors are correct).
On a related note... I'm really tired of "DC's Misery Filter".
I know DC is trying to set itself apart from Marvel movies and that Nolan's Batman movies were a huge success... But I really hope they stop trying to make every movie dark and gritty in a world of beige and grey.
Marvel proved it's possible for a single company to make both dark and colorful productions and still make them a hit! Even DC should've learned by now, considering Arrow and Flash TV series.
I don't mind movies having a darker tone... But when every. single. one. is a lump of grey, it gets really old, really fast. Specially when it doesn't match the original franchise.
if superman returns was a success, you might have had a leg to stand on. It was not, however.
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if superman returns was a success, you might have had a leg to stand on. It was not, however.On a related note... I'm really tired of "DC's Misery Filter".
I know DC is trying to set itself apart from Marvel movies and that Nolan's Batman movies were a huge success... But I really hope they stop trying to make every movie dark and gritty in a world of beige and grey.
Marvel proved it's possible for a single company to make both dark and colorful productions and still make them a hit! Even DC should've learned by now, considering Arrow and Flash TV series.
I don't mind movies having a darker tone... But when every. single. one. is a lump of grey, it gets really old, really fast. Specially when it doesn't match the original franchise.
Superman Returns has a lot of really good things going for it. It had excellent casting in both Routh and Spacey, and has some of the most iconic superman effects of any Superman film to date. The bullet to the eye scene or catching the the plane? Classic.
The problem with the film was the idiotic plot and the decision to change Superman from the man of steel into a deadbeat dad. That was what caused the film to flop, not the missing grimdark.
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if superman returns was a success, you might have had a leg to stand on. It was not, however.On a related note... I'm really tired of "DC's Misery Filter".
I know DC is trying to set itself apart from Marvel movies and that Nolan's Batman movies were a huge success... But I really hope they stop trying to make every movie dark and gritty in a world of beige and grey.
Marvel proved it's possible for a single company to make both dark and colorful productions and still make them a hit! Even DC should've learned by now, considering Arrow and Flash TV series.
I don't mind movies having a darker tone... But when every. single. one. is a lump of grey, it gets really old, really fast. Specially when it doesn't match the original franchise.
That movie wasn't exactly colorful, either... But even if it were pink-shaded with neon green characters...
Blaming the "not-completely-depressing" tone for the failure of that movie is foolish, to say the least... The problem was the boring plot, super predictable twist and forgettable characters.
The Flash TV series is a pretty big hit... And so were the old Superman and Justice League cartoons. Warner CAN make good superhero stuff with a more colorful tone. They just choose not to... Instead we only get dark & gritty movies and nothing else. All their franchises end up looking the same and, let's be honest here, most of their latest movies haven't been very good...
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Superman returns is the only superhero movie I fell asleep on.
The enormous paydays the films you didn't like provide for the creators ensure you will be getting more films you dislike in the future.
Hey, I gotta live in a world with whedon, you gotta live with this.
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Superman returns is the only superhero movie I fell asleep on.
Not the fault of it not being dark and gritty enough, though. It doesn't matter how colorful or gritty you make a movie... When the plot and characters are that boring, viewers are bound to be... Well... Bored.
The enormous paydays the films you didn't like provide for the creators ensure you will be getting more films you dislike in the future.
Hey, I gotta live in a world with whedon, you gotta live with this.
Everyone is free to enjoy whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else or their rights. But keep in mind that popularity does not equal quality.
I don't having anything against people liking BvS. I'm just sharing my opinion on DC movies in a thread about a DC movie. That's kind of the whole point of the thread.
There are plenty of "dark & gritty" movies I like... Being "Dark & Gritty" isn't even in my top 10 reasons for not liking BvS.
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The Flash TV series is a pretty big hit...
As is Supergirl. Which is even less dark and gritty than The Flash.
I'm not against dark and gritty...but not everything needs to be dark and gritty. It works for Batman....it doesn't for Superman. That's the problem with the DC movies (or at least those coming under the DC cinematic universe)....it seems they are ALL going for the dark and gritty feel, regardless of what the subject matter is.
At least Marvel is being smart enough to vary the tone of their MCU movies (and TV shows).
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Mebbe they should give Whedon a call.
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I liked the movie.
It was a mess, but the individual bits I liked pushed it over into an overall 'like'.
I'm holding out hope that the sequel is better.
I'm not against dark and gritty...but not everything needs to be dark and gritty. It works for Batman....it doesn't for Superman. That's the problem with the DC movies (or at least those coming under the DC cinematic universe)....it seems they are ALL going for the dark and gritty feel, regardless of what the subject matter is.
At least Marvel is being smart enough to vary the tone of their MCU movies (and TV shows).
Exactly! There are plenty of "dark & gritty" movies, games and series I love! I just wish not every single DC movie felt into that category.
I'm not criticizing the style, I'm criticizing the lack of variety.
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I am really worried about the Shazam movie
Shazam is not Dark and Gritty
Shazam is wish fullfillment and childhood optimism
I am really worried about the Shazam movie
Shazam is not Dark and Gritty
Shazam is wish fullfillment and childhood optimism
He's also very similar to Superman... And we know what they did to that franchise...
I'm not against dark and gritty...but not everything needs to be dark and gritty. It works for Batman....it doesn't for Superman. That's the problem with the DC movies (or at least those coming under the DC cinematic universe)....it seems they are ALL going for the dark and gritty feel, regardless of what the subject matter is.
At least Marvel is being smart enough to vary the tone of their MCU movies (and TV shows).
Exactly! There are plenty of "dark & gritty" movies, games and series I love! I just wish not every single DC movie felt into that category.
I'm not criticizing the style, I'm criticizing the lack of variety.
we got Green Lantern.
I'm damn glad we're getting dark and gritty.
He's also very similar to Superman... And we know what they did to that franchise...I am really worried about the Shazam movie
Shazam is not Dark and Gritty
Shazam is wish fullfillment and childhood optimism
he's intentionally one-note. Dark and gritty doesn't work well with such simple characters.
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Superman when badly written (which is 97.548% percent of the time) is one-note. When written by someone who actually respects the character and provides good moral challenges while not dismissing him, Superman is damn interesting.
In that 97.548% of the time, he's one of my least favorite superheroes. In that golden percentage of times he's written well, he's in the running for my favorite.
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we got Green Lantern.
I'm damn glad we're getting dark and gritty.
Again, blaming the more colorful tone for the failure of that movie is disingenuous. There were many, many problems with that movie... Its (well deserved) bombing wasn't due to it not being "dark and gritty".
It's a poorly written, poorly directed, poorly acted, poorly produced movie. It could be darker than a black hole and it'd still suck.
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While I enjoyed the BvS movie, I tend to agree that DC needs to get its act together regarding films. Dark and Gritty does indeed work for Batman. Superman and Wonder Woman - not so much. Green Lantern tried to do too much at once and paid the price for it. The less said about Superman Returns the better.
I harken back to the days of Christopher Reeves Superman - the first movie was a big hit, each subsequent movie less so (owing, I think, first to the blow up with Richard Donner, then bad story lines and bad special effects). The tone of those movies was a bit brighter, though, and I think that was a good thing.
I was reading an article the other day about the future Aquaman movie (which will stupidly come out after the Justice League movie), where the director said they would try to inject more humor. That's a good move, and one I think Jason Momoa can pull off.
Honestly, by this point, I think Warner could do worse than putting someone like Bruce Timm or Greg Berlanti in charge of the DC Cinematic Universe and letting them go to town. Maybe get folks like Paul Dini or Mark Waid to help with scripts.
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Superman when badly written (which is 97.548% percent of the time) is one-note. When written by someone who actually respects the character and provides good moral challenges while not dismissing him, Superman is damn interesting.
In that 97.548% of the time, he's one of my least favorite superheroes. In that golden percentage of times he's written well, he's in the running for my favorite.
Which is why I'm typically NOT a fan of Superman.
BUT.
SECRET IDENTITY by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen
BIRTHRIGHT by Mark Waid and Lenil Yu
ALL-STAR SUPERMAN (for my money the BEST Superman story in YEARS) by Grant Morrison and Frank Quietly
A SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale
SUPERMAN #423 - WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW by Alan Moore and Curt Swan
are ALL excellent SUPERMAN stories about him, who he is and how he inspires and influences the people around him.
Superman is what's best in all of us. When he's written well he's why I read Superhero books in the first place. It's exceptional people doing the hard things. Which is often the right thing at great sacrifice. Because the real world is FILLED with selfish, myopic, evil people doing selfish, evil things ALL THE TIME.
That said I dont recognize that Superman that's on the screen in these movies. And the Batman even less so. Like I said, I'm glad people are enjoying this movie but this movie is obviously not for me. I like my Superman a little more heroic and my Batman a little less Punisher-y.
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While I enjoyed the BvS movie, I tend to agree that DC needs to get its act together regarding films. Dark and Gritty does indeed work for Batman. Superman and Wonder Woman - not so much. Green Lantern tried to do too much at once and paid the price for it. The less said about Superman Returns the better.
I harken back to the days of Christopher Reeves Superman - the first movie was a big hit, each subsequent movie less so (owing, I think, first to the blow up with Richard Donner, then bad story lines and bad special effects). The tone of those movies was a bit brighter, though, and I think that was a good thing.
I was reading an article the other day about the future Aquaman movie (which will stupidly come out after the Justice League movie), where the director said they would try to inject more humor. That's a good move, and one I think Jason Momoa can pull off.
Honestly, by this point, I think Warner could do worse than putting someone like Bruce Timm or Greg Berlanti in charge of the DC Cinematic Universe and letting them go to town. Maybe get folks like Paul Dini or Mark Waid to help with scripts.
I'm not a fan of the Donner Superman movies but I'm a HUGE fan of Christopher Reeve's SUPERMAN and the tone of those first two movies, although at times they border on camp.
I think if they treat Aquaman like a Shakespearian drama / tragedy under the sea that tone / approach would be great. Everything doesnt have to be GRIMDARKDARKERDARKEST but Aquaman is a character who is never really taken seriously by the public. This movie is a good chance to change that perception.
Paul Dini and Bruce Timm would be great choices to take stewardship of the DC Cinematic Universe or whatever it's called. Much in the way that Kevin Feige is the steward of the MCU. I'd LOVE Mark Waid to be that guy but his relationship with DC isnt the best.
we got Green Lantern.
I'm damn glad we're getting dark and gritty.
Again, blaming the more colorful tone for the failure of that movie is disingenuous. There were many, many problems with that movie... Its (well deserved) bombing wasn't due to it not being "dark and gritty".
It's a poorly written, poorly directed, poorly acted, poorly produced movie. It could be darker than a black hole and it'd still suck.
several non dark and grittys bomb(Batman and Robin, anybody?), and are financial and professional nightmares(we'll never see Chris O'Donnell again, will we...?) All those that are not succeed when they don't break records(The Dark Knight).
You can't blame them at this point.
Superman when badly written (which is 97.548% percent of the time) is one-note. When written by someone who actually respects the character and provides good moral challenges while not dismissing him, Superman is damn interesting.
In that 97.548% of the time, he's one of my least favorite superheroes. In that golden percentage of times he's written well, he's in the running for my favorite.
Which is why I'm typically NOT a fan of Superman.
BUT.
SECRET IDENTITY by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen
BIRTHRIGHT by Mark Waid and Lenil Yu
ALL-STAR SUPERMAN (for my money the BEST Superman story in YEARS) by Grant Morrison and Frank Quietly
A SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale
SUPERMAN #423 - WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW by Alan Moore and Curt Swan
are ALL excellent SUPERMAN stories about him, who he is and how he inspires and influences the people around him.
Superman is what's best in all of us. When he's written well he's why I read Superhero books in the first place. It's exceptional people doing the hard things. Which is often the right thing at great sacrifice. Because the real world is FILLED with selfish, myopic, evil people doing selfish, evil things ALL THE TIME.
That said I dont recognize that Superman that's on the screen in these movies. And the Batman even less so. Like I said, I'm glad people are enjoying this movie but this movie is obviously not for me. I like my Superman a little more heroic and my Batman a little less Punisher-y.
superman isn't an easy character to write, I must admit.
I really liked the story where the woman thought he was an angel, and he was going around protecting her all day/week until the moment where he couldn't. It was an amazing story and made me actually cry when she admitted her hubris as the end. That said, I hate all star because I hate Morrison. Then again he did give me morlocks, which was a tight, near perfect limited series. Maybe I should give this a try.
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Superman is what's best in all of us. When he's written well he's why I read Superhero books in the first place. It's exceptional people doing the hard things. Which is often the right thing at great sacrifice. Because the real world is FILLED with selfish, myopic, evil people doing selfish, evil things ALL THE TIME.
Cover your eyes Freehold...
It's funny, but to me, the Captain America from Marvel's movies does this brilliantly. It demonstrates how to have an inspirational "Boy Scout-ish" hero interacting with grittier/more pragmatic protagonists and antagonists. Smart writing and an actor who really understands (and likes) the character make it work.
I know Superman Returns gets dinged, but I loved Routh's portrayal of Kal'El; Cavill hasn't had great scripts or great direction, but he just doesn't seem to have to have the right blend of charisma to make it work. SR also has a couple great Reeves-ish scenes that I love. First is the scene in the beginning where he saves the plane and sells the "Statistically speaking, it's still the safest way to travel." line. The second is when he's flying really fast through the city, in a hurry to stop Lex's plan, and still finds a split-second moment to laser vaporize the shattered glass about to rain down on the innocents below, all without even slowing down. Neither of these would happen under Snyder & Goyer's Superman, which is why I don't think they truly understand (or even like) the character.
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Superman is what's best in all of us. When he's written well he's why I read Superhero books in the first place. It's exceptional people doing the hard things. Which is often the right thing at great sacrifice. Because the real world is FILLED with selfish, myopic, evil people doing selfish, evil things ALL THE TIME.Cover your eyes Freehold...
Nonsense, my lady slaad. I know we disagree in some areas and that is more than okay. I did enjoy that introductory scene from superman returns, it is probably the only scene from the movie I enjoyed.