Yeah, I've deemed Paizo unfit to handle Crane Wing, so they aren't allowed to touch it. Crane Wing has never been nerfed.
Everyone is missing the point of Formless Mastery. Don't think of it as an unchained monk class feature; think of it as an unchained Crane Wing nerf. If you look at it that way, Formless Mastery is a thing of beauty.
You see, the standard Crane Wing nerf turned a feat that automatically blocked one melee attack into a feat that provided a +4 bonus to AC against one melee attack if you happened to burn an immediate action before that attack was rolled in the first place. That's a fairly intensive nerf, but all of the sacred cows were really holding it back.
Now that everything's been unchained, Crane Wing can be properly nerfed. If you're stuck GMing for a bunch of uppity martials who insist on taking Crane Wing, even though its been nerfed down to an occasional +4 AC bonus against one melee attack, you can teach them a lesson by giving Formless Mastery to your NPC monks.
Your monks get a +4 bonus on attack rolls against anyone using Crane Wing, perfectly counteracting the +4 bonus to AC that Crane Wing occasionally provides. Plus, to further punish the PCs for daring to take a non-magical defense nearly as effective as some 1st- or 2nd-level spells, your NPCs also get massive damage bonuses and other perks against them.
Never before has a nerf been so perfectly complete.
I don't know.
Compelling the GM to throw nothing but monks at the party is a pretty OP ability.
I would tolerate a crane wing monk for that.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Did they open playtest these at all? Paizo's open playtest of all their big stuff is what separated them from WoTC. It's why it succeeded and 4th edition failed. When Paizo listens to their customers, beautiful things happen.
As I mentioned previously, they never play-tested the original monk, and they didn't play-test this one. That's probably why both suck so bad.
I will probably get this book as it will probably have something useful I can use. But as usually the devs are unable or unwilling to find the proper middle ground when designing something. Either a ability is really good. Or it's not worth taking. Six years after the core was released and I expected a hell of lot better from the devs. Oh well.
There are loads of great, really useful ideas in this book.
The monk is just not one of them.
EDIT: Never mind, it only works against people using the Style feats. What the hell!?Yeah, I do not understand how thematically it only works against opponents with a stand. A monk with this route rejects stands, so why could he exploit them more?
I'm not sure if the ability would be too strong without the restriction. At first glance it seems to strong, but then I think about paladin smites and how my magus works.
Uses up ki (a really restricted resource) but gives either +4 to hit, +4 to AC, or +[monk level] to damage? Now look at the other martials:
Barbarian - up to +4 to hit +4 to damage and +[4xlevel] hit points when raging.Cavalier - varies, around the mark of +[level] to damage and other effects vs challenged foe.
Fighter - up to +10 to hit and +8 to damage with favoured weapon and a pair of gloves.
Paladin - +[charisma bonus] to hit and +[level] to damage and ignore ALL DR vs anything evil.
Ranger - +8-10 hit AND damage AND skill boosts to, well, pretty much anything if you drop a 3rd level spell (instant enemy).
No, not too powerful at all if it had applied to anything.
Back on the poor Will save topic:
I think I know why the developers dropped it. It would have been too good of a dip in canon (not variant) multi-classing. Dip two levels of Unchained Monk and get +2 BAB, 2d10, multiple feats, and +3 to all Saves!! Yeah?
Unfortunately, I think they missed an opportunity here. I mean how they kept Still Mind exactly the same (but pushed it back to 4th level):
A monk gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.If they had done this instead:
A main gains +1 bonus on all will saving throws. When the character gains 7th level as a monk (and every three levels gained as a monk thereafter) this bonus increases by +1 to a maximum of +6 at 19th level.
In addition, a monk gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects. This ability stacks with the bonus listed above.
it might well have not sparked this debate. Four levels is a LOT for folks looking to dip. It would be a delayed good Will save, but that I could live with.
And if doing that was still too much, then I wouldn't mind dropping the hit die back down to a d8. Making the class even less attractive as a dip.
Just my thoughts.
MA
I think you hit the nail on the head there MA. If they were worried about dipping, they could have done this with the monk to maintain the defences. Mind you, if they were worried about monk dips they should have nerfed the MoMS or never created it at the outset. Two levels of MoMS still remains the best dip for any martial around.
Unchained is optional? Right?
So in theory, you could do everything the Unchained Monk has, but keep the saves as the CRB monk?
All rules are optional, you can house-rule anything you like. I house-rule the monk to hell and back in my games. This doesn't help me PLAY a monk I want to play, though.
Everyone is missing the point of Formless Mastery. Don't think of it as an unchained monk class feature; think of it as an unchained Crane Wing nerf. If you look at it that way, Formless Mastery is a thing of beauty.
No, it's not.
You see the problem was never Crane Wing. Crane Wing was fine as was. The PROBLEM was the Master of Many Styles archetype. It was a perfect dip, and it did away with all those pesky requirements for style feats. It was the perfect dip class for any non-monk.
If they's fixed the MoMS monk by making it meet the level/BAB demands of the style feats they never would have needed to nerf Crane Style/Wing. In fact if they had simply made the MoMS abilities part of the core monk they would have made the whole class thematically much more fun.
Aren't you likely to drop Still Mind by taking vows for extra Ki anyway?
Especially with the limited Ki amounts since there is more Ki needed to be spent.But now it is a harder choice I guess.
Exactly. That's why it's such a bad nerf.
Here's the problem with the unchained monk:
- It's a disciplined, spiritual warrior who somehow isn't any better spiritually than any other martial now, and is worse than some (the paladin).
- In overall defences, the paladin is now undisputed king, and the monk is down there with the rest of the plebs.
- He's offensively still less effective than any other martial.
- He still gets his a$$ handed to him by the brawler in unarmed (or even armed) combat, which is what he's supposed to be good at.
I think their biggest issue was they never actually identified the monk's mechanical problems as a combat class. The monk wasn't bad defensively, he just needed a boost to his offence to make those defences actually count. His problems with offence were MAD, lack of enhancement, and inability to combine other abilities in such a way that they worked in synergy. The unchained monk fixed the last one somewhat, in return for a nerf to the defences. They haven't tackled MAD or lack of enhancement, which were the two biggest problems. If they had fixed all three, without the nerf then it would have been perfectly balanced with the other martial classes. They didn't.
Well as much as I think people are over-reacting to the will save (you can - although I really like the change to still mind above - and think I will adopt that in my games!) - I am on board with the 'formless mastery' ki ability. Honestly it just reads weird - and as written it is either a very poor choice, or not doing what it intended. Based on the flavor text and rules text I see it trying to do one thing but not.
As written it:
- requires the monk to not have any style feats
- requires the opponent to be in an active style
As flavored it:
- requires the monk to not be in any *active* styles
- doesn't require the opponent to do anything special
The first is way to restrictive. The second would be fantastic and give awesome situational use that gives monk players an interesting choice in using ki for combat bonuses (as his swift action) or to be in a style stance.
I think the first thought was 'omg the bonuses are too good he'll use this every time' - except no - stances are good enough that you won't - but the bonuses are good enough to make you think about using a stance or not. Add to that, that the new monk is ki intensive and using 1 point of ki every turn is just not something done lightly and I feel that someone knee jerked the rules on this ability as it stands.
Any chance we could get insight Mark?
|
Thanks Dabbler. I will still going to get the book. Even in the ACG their some good material. It's just frustrating that after all this time even with all the feedback they still manage to miss the mark imo. AS I said at this point six years into the development cycle of PF I'm expecting more from the devs. If what you said is true about the Unchained Monk. Then either they were not listening to the countless Monk threads. Which they are free to do by the way. Just don't waste the fans time by releasing a book that is marketed as killing off "sacred cows" in the game. Then do a half hearted attempt. I had a feeling they would really not fix enough of the problems. Sad to see I was right imo.
To be honest with 5E and the devs of that edition actually fixing problems. You think that Paizo would do a better job. Imo I'm pretty sure that PU is not going to get fans who play and like 5E back in the fold.
As flavored it:
- requires the monk to not be in any *active* styles
- doesn't require the opponent to do anything special
The first is way to restrictive. The second would be fantastic and give awesome situational use that gives monk players an interesting choice in using ki for combat bonuses (as his swift action) or to be in a style stance.
This is exactly the way I thought it should be.
Would it be too broken to let the monk enhance his fists with his ki like a mugus enhances his weapons with arcane pool? I think I might house rule that, along with good will save, ki pool at 2nd level(like the ninja) and a ki power at 2nd level. Nobody multiclass at my group so dipping be dammed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As I mentioned previously, they never play-tested the original monk, and they didn't play-test this one. That's probably why both suck so bad.
Hey Dabbler, as I mentioned in another thread too, over my time on the forums, we've chatted in various threads and I've always respected your tendency for strong analysis, whether we agreed or disagreed. The rest of your post is opinion, but in this one quoted section, you state fact incorrectly. As someone who agrees with you that both playtesting and running math are important, we did playtest the Unchained monk, and run a bunch of mathematical analyses too. I'm wondering, did you? I assume yes because from other threads I know you pretty much always do, but some of your assertions this time seem contrary to the math, which they have never been before (you previously said that the Unchained monk that isn't expending ki is worse at dealing damage than a paladin that also isn't expending limited resources, which I believe is strictly provable not to be correct by math, unless I am mistaken). So I'd be interested if you could share them.
I'm beginning to think that it's possible that this will be like the hunter, where on release there were a fair number of people who were worried about the class, but since then it has been proven to be pretty solid. If so, it's not unexpected, in that we had a lot longer in the book's development cycle to run math and playtest than folks have had since getting subscriber copies, so even if the collective forums are a more powerful organ overall for such endeavors (which I believe they are, over time, if sometimes one with signal/noise to work out), it hasn't had time to sort itself out.
As I mentioned previously, they never play-tested the original monk, and they didn't play-test this one. That's probably why both suck so bad.
To be fair, they playtested the Swashbuckler and we all know how that turned out.
As someone who agrees with you that both playtesting and running math are important, we did playtest the Unchained monk, and run a bunch of mathematical analyses too.
There's a big difference between a public playtest and one that (I assume) was mostly conducted within Paizo itself. Especially since even Paizo's public playtests have a bit of a reputation (however unfair) for ignoring any feedback other than "everything is perfect the way it is, no change needed."
|
|
As someone who agrees with you that both playtesting and running math are important, we did playtest the Unchained monk, and run a bunch of mathematical analyses too.There's a big difference between a public playtest and one that (I assume) was mostly conducted within Paizo itself. Especially since even Paizo's public playtests have a bit of a reputation (however unfair) for ignoring any feedback other than "everything is perfect the way it is, no change needed."
Even inasmuch as this is true, the math should be the same for everybody. Yet it seems to be getting ignored this time, or being stated flat-out incorrectly (I noted another flaw in Dabbler's math elsewhere on the forums too); it's rather odd for the theorycrafting crowd around here, who tend to be pretty good with mathematical assessments.
|
As someone who agrees with you that both playtesting and running math are important, we did playtest the Unchained monk, and run a bunch of mathematical analyses too.There's a big difference between a public playtest and one that (I assume) was mostly conducted within Paizo itself. Especially since even Paizo's public playtests have a bit of a reputation (however unfair) for ignoring any feedback other than "everything is perfect the way it is, no change needed."
It really depends on whom is in charge of the class being playtested. For example, look at the OA playtest and compare the feedback and changes to the Kineticist and the Occultist.
|
You can have all the playtests in the world but at the end day, you just have to seriously consider if it is going to work for your campaign or home games. Just like someone trying to make a crit build when your dm told you, it was going to be an Ooze focused campaign, you are just going to have a bad time.
I need to see the actual text of the class, but judging by this discussion, my thought is that at my tables, I'll return the Will save to its proper place, drop HD back to d8 while maintaining the full BAB (because that's thematic, and especially in a book called 'Unchained', there's no reason the Barbarian has to be the only one with an irregular HD/BAB matchup, it's thematic, and it does help balance out the 'getting everything' feeling), and alter their Ki pool so that they either get as much as a Barbarian gets Rage or a Bard gets Performance, or give them a recharge mechanic like a Swashbuckler or Gunslinger.
Anyone have any ideas for what might be appropriate means of replenishing Ki in the latter case? Crits don't seem especially appropriate, mechanically or thematically, and it might even be nice to have something different than the 'dropping a foe' standby--that would be perfect for recreating the Hungry Ghost Monk archetype, but is perhaps a little strange for other monks.
It really depends on whom is in charge of the class being playtested. For example, look at the OA playtest and compare the feedback and changes to the Kineticist and the Occultist.As someone who agrees with you that both playtesting and running math are important, we did playtest the Unchained monk, and run a bunch of mathematical analyses too.There's a big difference between a public playtest and one that (I assume) was mostly conducted within Paizo itself. Especially since even Paizo's public playtests have a bit of a reputation (however unfair) for ignoring any feedback other than "everything is perfect the way it is, no change needed."
As the one in charge of feedback for the kineticist, I will say that as someone giving feedback in the Unchained process, our playtests and math-work definitely caused the actual designer of the new Unchained classes (Jason) to go back to the drawing board and add more and more cool stuff, in three iterations.
\
Anyone have any ideas for what might be appropriate means of replenishing Ki in the latter case? Crits don't seem especially appropriate, mechanically or thematically, and it might even be nice to have something different than the 'dropping a foe' standby--that would be perfect for recreating the Hungry Ghost Monk archetype, but is perhaps a little strange for other monks.
How about they get 1 back each hour they aren't in combat (assumed to be mediating, but not required).
|
|
As the one in charge of feedback for the kineticist, I will say that as someone giving feedback in the Unchained process, our playtests and math-work definitely caused the actual designer of the new Unchained classes (Jason) to go back to the drawing board and add more and more cool stuff, in three iterations.It really depends on whom is in charge of the class being playtested. For example, look at the OA playtest and compare the feedback and changes to the Kineticist and the Occultist.As someone who agrees with you that both playtesting and running math are important, we did playtest the Unchained monk, and run a bunch of mathematical analyses too.There's a big difference between a public playtest and one that (I assume) was mostly conducted within Paizo itself. Especially since even Paizo's public playtests have a bit of a reputation (however unfair) for ignoring any feedback other than "everything is perfect the way it is, no change needed."
Cool, good to hear. I am really looking forward to seeing the final versions.
Any chance we could get insight Mark?
One thing that was important was to design a suite of abilities that included some that would be good in different situations; for instance, in all the style strike conversations, most people haven't been discussing using Foot Stomp, but Foot Stomp is one of the most reliable at-will movement control abilities in the game, so it's fantastic for mage-killer or archer-killer builds or even for high defense builds in a party with a bunch of ranged and backline characters, since you can demand the enemy's attention. Even so, enough of the style strikes are majorly awesome, that this cool style strike hasn't even seen much discussion yet, and I suspect that other style strikes will still be overall more popular.
Cool, good to hear. I am really looking forward to seeing the final versions.As the one in charge of feedback for the kineticist, I will say that as someone giving feedback in the Unchained process, our playtests and math-work definitely caused the actual designer of the new Unchained classes (Jason) to go back to the drawing board and add more and more cool stuff, in three iterations.It really depends on whom is in charge of the class being playtested. For example, look at the OA playtest and compare the feedback and changes to the Kineticist and the Occultist.As someone who agrees with you that both playtesting and running math are important, we did playtest the Unchained monk, and run a bunch of mathematical analyses too.There's a big difference between a public playtest and one that (I assume) was mostly conducted within Paizo itself. Especially since even Paizo's public playtests have a bit of a reputation (however unfair) for ignoring any feedback other than "everything is perfect the way it is, no change needed."
Just to be clear, I am talking about the Unchained monk (the topic of this thread) in that post. Jason was not the designer of all the Occult classes.
Anyone have any ideas for what might be appropriate means of replenishing Ki in the latter case? Crits don't seem especially appropriate, mechanically or thematically, and it might even be nice to have something different than the 'dropping a foe' standby--that would be perfect for recreating the Hungry Ghost Monk archetype, but is perhaps a little strange for other monks.
Obviously, he needs to recharge his ki by spending a couple minutes screaming and gathering his power until his hair turns gold or grows really long.
Seriously though, I'd say the most thematic way for a monk to recharge his ki pool wouldn't be through combat, but by some sort of post-battle meditation. Something like totally refilling your ki pool by spending an hour in uninterrupted meditation. Seems like a very monk thing to do.
|
|
Seriously though, I'd say the most thematic way for a monk to recharge his ki pool wouldn't be through combat, but by some sort of post-battle meditation. Something like totally refilling your ki pool by spending an hour in uninterrupted meditation. Seems like a very monk thing to do.
Or by drinking lots of booze.
I knew about the ki mat, but I'm left to wonder if there are any other items, feats and abilities that might allow you to replenish or expand upon your ki points?
Anyone have any ideas for what might be appropriate means of replenishing Ki in the latter case? Crits don't seem especially appropriate, mechanically or thematically, and it might even be nice to have something different than the 'dropping a foe' standby--that would be perfect for recreating the Hungry Ghost Monk archetype, but is perhaps a little strange for other monks.Obviously, he needs to recharge his ki by spending a couple minutes screaming and gathering his power until his hair turns gold or grows really long.
Seriously though, I'd say the most thematic way for a monk to recharge his ki pool wouldn't be through combat, but by some sort of post-battle meditation. Something like totally refilling your ki pool by spending an hour in uninterrupted meditation. Seems like a very monk thing to do.
What, like if ki worked like Stamina?
One thing that came to mind is the meditation feats from Faiths anf Philosophies. I think the feats suck but I liked the idea of being able to meditate for a full round action to get some meditation buffs. I imagined a world where you could do that with ki. Spend a full round action and gain some bonus ki that last for like a minute. You could even fluff it so that you're screaming and gathering power if you wanted to.
|
|
I'm not fond of DPR analysis in general, but after reading the unchained rogue and monk a few times now, I am thoroughly satisfied with both classes. I would have no fear to play either class alongside paladins and the like. Count me in as a very satisfied customer!
(flurry no longer requires you to carry the monk class table in your backpocket... all you have to remember is extra attack, as if you're hasted, and if you get hasted, you now have two extra attacks... that's magical, my friends...)
|
|
...the monk is now so good, in fact, that it's going to be very hard from now on for any martial character (fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, etc.) to not take a one level dip into that class for the extra attack it gives you (the only detractor would be that you have to use this with unarmed strike or a monk weapon... but a fighter specialized in a monk weapon would have no reason not to take a one level dip...)
I mean by the gods: 1st level gives you one extra attack and 3 bonus feats!!!
|
|
...the monk is now so good, in fact, that it's going to be very hard from now on for any martial character (fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, etc.) to not take a one level dip into that class for the extra attack it gives you (the only detractor would be that you have to use this with unarmed strike or a monk weapon... but a fighter specialized in a monk weapon would have no reason not to take a one level dip...)
I mean by the gods: 1st level gives you one extra attack and 3 bonus feats!!!
You still can't flurry in armor or while using a shield. Monk has always been a good dip class though.
It's probably not as good anymore since you're losing will save progression for the dip.
|
|
Seriously though, I'd say the most thematic way for a monk to recharge his ki pool wouldn't be through combat, but by some sort of post-battle meditation. Something like totally refilling your ki pool by spending an hour in uninterrupted meditation. Seems like a very monk thing to do.
I'm sorta tempted to make that the *only* way to refill your ki pool. It just means the monk meditates while the casters prep spells, but still leaves him the option of a later refill if he has an hour to hang out.
You still can't flurry in armor or while using a shield. Monk has always been a good dip class though....the monk is now so good, in fact, that it's going to be very hard from now on for any martial character (fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, etc.) to not take a one level dip into that class for the extra attack it gives you (the only detractor would be that you have to use this with unarmed strike or a monk weapon... but a fighter specialized in a monk weapon would have no reason not to take a one level dip...)
I mean by the gods: 1st level gives you one extra attack and 3 bonus feats!!!
Nevertheless, it's not a bad dip for the multitude of exotic weapon proficiencies. Also great for classes like the magus or rogue who might want extra attacks, but who might not wear armor.
I agree that the style strikes sound awesome. What sounds dissapointing to me is that you have to pick just one and not till level 5. Its not a suite of abilities. Its one. Then another 4 levels later. Foot stomp is pretty situational.
The same with ki powers.
I know I've made this point before but it seems to be getting glossed over.
|
In response to RD asking about ways to replenish Ki, I will post some here for others to see.
JO crystal is really good because if you have a non-channel focused cleric in your party or some way to channel energy yourself you have a pretty huge number of refreshes(Separtist Cleric could pick up Aquatic, Arctic, or Swamp domain, maybe two if your God is nature enough to give 9+Cha*3 recharges of Ki a day... Effectively making your monk a little more MAD, but making Ki a much more easily accessible resource)
Tea of best item in the game is obviously my favourite item in the game and makes you think that hey VMC with monk might just make them better than everyone at their job.
Think about the Tea+Perfect Style allows for 1+1/4 character level more uses of those abilities a day. It's how I manage to play multi-classed characters and keep up just fine, it also makes the Chevalier prestige class good as Smite Evil at character level 2+1/4 character level times/day 1/encounter is rather good.
For those with the book, is there any ki power that doesn't expend ki?
I'd like to mention a couple of my thoughts on the Unchained Monk:
1. I like the changes to the flurry mechanic
2. The move to full-BAB class is not as relevant to me - previously the monk already flurried "as if" he was full-BAB; but it is still nice to have access to better feats sooner (and the lack of -2 to attack on the flurry helps as well, especially for low-level monks)
3. The drop to Will saves is pretty horrible. I understand that it is probably meant to de-incentivise dipping into [unchained] monk - but it is a poor choice nonetheless. The later class abilities granted to the monk do not make up for this loss in Will save. The unchained monk is an attractive dip-class regardless of the poor Will save; and the change breaks thematic assumption on the monk.
There are probably a number of factors contributing to the design decision. Moving the class to full-BAB was coupled with an increase to HD to stay in-line with the class norms in Pathfinder - but then the trifecta of full-BAB, full-HD, and full-Saves is just too good on paper. And on-top of that it predisposes the class to the perfect dipper.
I think Paizo missed an opportunity to look at paladin to solve this. My design advice for this would be: give the monk Poor Fort, Good Reflex, Poor Will - then adjust the ki pool ability to grant a bonus to all saves equal to the Wisdom modifier (akin to the paladin's divine grace). Perhaps make it a separate class ability at level 4 "Wisdom in the Flesh". This is a noticeable nerf for dipping purposes, even characters that are willing to dip 4 levels are not likely to have amazing Wisdom to really take advantage of this ability.
4. Ki powers. These are a very valuable addition to the class - but there are up and downsides to it currently.
The good: by instating a concept such as ki powers Paizo opens the possibility of monk support in upcoming Player Companions akin to how barbarians get new rage powers and rogues get new talents. (Previously the only "support" that monks could hope for were feats, which are not particularly class specific.)
The bad: the monk is nerfed somewhat in that several of the previous "always on" abilities now cost ki; the abilities tend to cost a lot of ki relative to the reward; the ki pool of the class is quite small. This causes many situations where it would be advisable to use a ki power to go to waste as the monk needs to carefully ration his ki expenditure.
An option: something that would go a long way to both increase the actual use of the ki powers and the ki cost is to allow every ki power to be used 1/day for free. Only additional uses cost ki.
5. Style strikes. These are great - again for the reason that this opens the door for additional support in future Paizo publications.
If I would leverage a complaint against style strikes, is that it only offers one solution for flurry mobility. There certainly was room to introduce two or three different strikes that have different conditions of behavior to open up different character concepts.
For those with the book, is there any ki power that doesn't expend ki?
Not that I can recall, and many abilities that were previously always on now cot Ki in addition to you having to choose them.
The Unchained Monk still requires significant houseruling to be good, but at least it has a better chassis to work with.
Simple stuff: Restore the Will save to its proper place, and make a lot of the Ki Powers "always on" once chosen. Stuff like Diamond Body and that thing that lets you move across unstable surfaces, and High Jump.
I like that Diamond Soul is tied to Ki now, though.
While the Unchained Monk is obviously going to be better than the Core Monk, how do people with the book think it stacks up against an archetyped Qinggong/Something/Something Else Monk? More talking about archetypes that fulfill "traditional" Monk roles like the Hungry Ghost and the Harrow Warden rather than the Zen Archer and Sohei.
|
|
...the monk is now so good, in fact, that it's going to be very hard from now on for any martial character (fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, etc.) to not take a one level dip into that class for the extra attack it gives you (the only detractor would be that you have to use this with unarmed strike or a monk weapon... but a fighter specialized in a monk weapon would have no reason not to take a one level dip...)
I mean by the gods: 1st level gives you one extra attack and 3 bonus feats!!!
I'd agree if you could slap Sohei onto the unchained monk for armored flurry. (Either that for MoMS is used for dipping for the old monk.)
Still not a bad dip as you don't lose the BAB point like before, which was the primary hit a martial took for dipping monk before.
While the Unchained Monk is obviously going to be better than the Core Monk, how do people with the book think it stacks up against an archetyped Qinggong/Something/Something Else Monk? More talking about archetypes that fulfill "traditional" Monk roles like the Hungry Ghost and the Harrow Warden rather than the Zen Archer and Sohei.
The Harrow Warden I'd never looked at before (but it's cool). The ret of the archetypes really don't bring much to the table, They didn't previouly, and wouldn't now.
The Hungry Ghost Monk just give syou early access to Ki Leech, basically.
The Monk of the Sacred Mountain was always good for a dip combined with MoMS, but is meh on its own.
MoMS still works on the Unchained Monk.
And so on down the line.
|
|
For those with the book, is there any ki power that doesn't expend ki?
One Touch and Ki Sustenance (I think that's the name?) don't, I know. I don't have my PDF handy, so there might be others. (One Touch, by the by, is a really, really good power. Practically an auto-take once it becomes available.)
For those with the book, is there any ki power that doesn't expend ki?One Touch and Ki Sustenance (I think that's the name?) don't, I know. I don't have my PDF handy, so there might be others. (One Touch, by the by, is a really, really good power. Practically an auto-take once it becomes available.)
If you have both One Touch and Spin Kick, you can get past almost any kind of enemy's defenses!
|
|
I also noticed that Wholeness of Body was buffed, but not enough. It's still sucks, but it's not quite as bad as before. If it had been boosted to a swift action it would be worth taking, or if the ki cost reduced, but as a standard it's still not worth it.
About the only time Wholeness of Body is any good is for Drunken Masters using as out of combat healing since they have virtually infinite ki, though it's still probably not worth giving up a Qinggong ability for. By the time you get it CLW wands aren't that expensive.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You still can't flurry in armor or while using a shield. Monk has always been a good dip class though....the monk is now so good, in fact, that it's going to be very hard from now on for any martial character (fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, etc.) to not take a one level dip into that class for the extra attack it gives you (the only detractor would be that you have to use this with unarmed strike or a monk weapon... but a fighter specialized in a monk weapon would have no reason not to take a one level dip...)
I mean by the gods: 1st level gives you one extra attack and 3 bonus feats!!!
I don't see the "can't flurry in armor" bit in the unchained version of flurry of blows...
|
|
I don't see the "can't flurry in armor" bit in the unchained version of flurry of blows...You still can't flurry in armor or while using a shield. Monk has always been a good dip class though....the monk is now so good, in fact, that it's going to be very hard from now on for any martial character (fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, etc.) to not take a one level dip into that class for the extra attack it gives you (the only detractor would be that you have to use this with unarmed strike or a monk weapon... but a fighter specialized in a monk weapon would have no reason not to take a one level dip...)
I mean by the gods: 1st level gives you one extra attack and 3 bonus feats!!!
DAMMIT! it's still under the "weapons and armor" heading:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a
medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well
as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.