No, I honestly appreciate their work.
I've also been fortunate enough to see the new monk in actual play, and it's doing great.
Our local groups are pretty excited, and I know of around 30 or so people who are enjoying it. Another person came by today to borrow my book, and is looking to convince her DM to let her update her character.
Maybe it's different in your area. Couldn't say.
So is abundant step one of the new ki powers now?
Do you still need to be level 12 to get it?
Do you still need to be level 12 to get it?
Need to be 8th-level.
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Personally I see all the "top tier" martial classes have access to all around amazing saves. Paladins and Barbarians (what I consider to be the most viable martials) have Divine Grace and Superstition+rage to make their saves very high.
The Unchained Monk comparatively does less damage in most scenarios, so I find it odd that they have worse saves than either of them. Additionally Paladin and Barb can be considered more "long lasting" in terms of ability to be relevant through a long adventuring day and have more versatility due to spells/rage powers being amazing.
It's a shame the devs didn't use them as the reference point.
Edit: That said, I did enjoy the rest of the book very much.
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Personally I see all the "top tier" martial classes have access to all around amazing saves. Paladins and Barbarians (what I consider to be the most viable martials) have Divine Grace and Superstition+rage to make their saves very high.
The Unchained Monk comparatively does less damage in most scenarios, so I find it odd that they have worse saves than either of them. Additionally Paladin and Barb can be considered more "long lasting" in terms of ability to be relevant through a long adventuring day and have more versatility due to spells/rage powers being amazing.
It's a shame the devs didn't use them as the reference point.
Edit: That said, I did enjoy the rest of the book very much.
This is how I expect my own feedback to be. I was unfortunately slighted by my local means of obtaining a copy, (And uncomfortably pressured to not purchase the book via other, more convenient means) and thus have to wait a bit longer.
Personally, I don't think I'd mind the lackluster nature of the ki powers if I didn't have the almost universally superior rage powers to read just pages prior. Somewhat like the unchained rogue I feel like the new monk is a clear improvement, but fears to go far enough. I'll withhold final judgement until I've seen them in play I guess.
The barbarian was intended to be easier to run so less changes were needed. I really never knew it was an issue.
To be clear, I would have liked to see better ki powers, not worse rage powers. The redesign of a lot of those rage powers are AWESOME, and a lot of previously average to bad options are now at least viable, and sometimes even advisable. That's why I'm so sad to see the monk get powers like Elemental Fury while barbarian get Elemental Stance (which, while competing with better stances, at least serve its niche well, scales with level, last for more than 1/2 rounds per level and costs no more than a move action activation and standard rage rounds rather than one of your ki points).
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I'm still most disappointed by Wholeness of Body. It should be a self-only wisdom based lay on hands as a swift action. Instead it's 2 ki for a self only Cure Light Wounds as a Standard Action.
Yeah - it's always been bad. The only reason to take it for any monk (unchained/not) is OOC healing for a Drunken Master (since they have infinite ki). Even then - it's probably not worth giving up a different power for.
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Ok as to the monk I don't know if it was mentioned. But unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons meaning you can have master work transformation on them and then permancy on them the enchant them.
Only if you were enchanting them as a weapon (which you can't do). You can cast the spell 'magic weapon' on a non-masterwork weapon. It's the spell that's being made permanent. That's why it would have issues with Dispel. (a normal magic weapon doesn't have its magic stripped by the spell)
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Okay, then. I’ve finally had a chance to go over the class in detail (thanks to Jonathon Wilder, above). There are good things . . . and there are not-so-good things.
First off, let’s get the elephant in the room out of the way. I do not like the diminished Will save. I understand why the developers felt it was necessary, but frankly it deprives the Monk of one of its core abilities and (even worse, in my own humble opinion) leaves a gaping hole between the descriptive monk text and what you actually get.
I do like the increase in BAB; rather than the ‘virtual’ BAB of the Core Monk, this does make it easier to make standard-action attacks and Attacks of Opportunity without suffering from a lower attack bonus; plus the ability to take (some) combat feats earlier is quite good.
And I do indeed understand the reasoning behind the increase to a d10 hit die. However (and y’all knew this was coming), I think that perhaps Paizo missed an opportunity here to do something different. Personally, I would have kept the d8, making the Unchained Monk a little more ‘fragile’ than the Core Fighter/Ranger/Paladin (much less the Barbarian) as a trade-off for his movement and fast striking (i.e., multiple attacks on a full-attack) abilities. Still, we are just talking about an average of 1 hit point per level, so it isn’t something I can really complain about (but I will mention it).
Onwards and upwards!
Class Skills: Unchanged. I would have liked to see Diplomacy or Linguistics added to the class list (both being thematic for monastic characters), but nothing really to gripe about (or to celebrate!).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Adding all weapons with monk special quality was nice. Otherwise unchanged from the Core class.
AC Bonus: Unchanged. As a side-note, the Unchained Monk’s CMD just got about a five point boost over all 20 levels, making it far harder for someone to use a combat maneuver against a monk! I don’t know if this was intentional or not, but good luck trying to trip or grapple an Unchained Monk!
Bonus Feat: Unchanged. Once again, I feel that there was a missed opportunity to add to the Feat List. As it is, the list is very limited and there are still regrettable . . . gaps which make it difficult to get certain feats later on (Greater Trip and Greater Grapple, for example).
Flurry of Blows: Ahhh. Now this I can say, with no exaggeration, is a most welcome and valued change. First of all, there is no longer a -2 penalty (across the board) on Flurry attacks. Second, it is finally separated from Two-Weapon Fighting in both design and execution (and cannot stack with TWF). Third, I like the concept of returning to the 3.5 version of Flurry (with all bonus attacks at the Monk’s highest BAB with an additional attack coming in at 11th level).
Unfortunately, I have some questions as well!
First off, right off the bat, it kind of jumps out at me that this is missing (from the Core Monk):
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
There has been a good deal of rejoicing over that Unchained Monk’s can now get 1.5x Str-mod in damage with Two-Handed Weapons . . . but by the text, it also appears that if a Monk is wielding two weapons, he gets 0.5x Str-mod with his off-hand weapon as well. Furthermore, there is no longer any provision for substituting disarm, sunder, and trip in place of an attack. The natural weapons part is pretty well covered by the “does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so” line in the Unchained Monk.
Some will argue that we don’t need that bit of text, because the off-hand is addressed in Unarmed Strikes (see below) . . . unfortunately that applies ONLY to unarmed strikes and NOT with weapons.
Was this deliberate? Or an oversight? If deliberate, it pushes the Unchained Monk towards using a single, larger weapon (i.e., temple sword, quarterstaff, etc.) rather than two smaller, lighter weapons.
Stunning Fist: Unchanged.
Unarmed Strike: Mostly unchanged. But one question: does the Unchained Monk’s unarmed damage increase at the same rate as the Core Monk? That information wasn’t posted and the text about differing damage for Small and Large sized monks was removed.
Evasion: Unchanged.
Fast Movement: Unchanged.
Ki Pool: Moved from 4th level to 3rd. And lost two of the basic ki abilities (+4 AC dodge bonus and +20’ movement) to the new Ki Powers (see below). Many folks have already addressed the rather small size of the pool, so I’m not going to beat a dead horse here. Moving on.
Ki Powers: Ah, our first NEW ability. I am going to explore the various Powers here in detail, so bear with me. But first, the basics. The Ki Powers are much like Rage Powers or Rogue Talents in that the Unchained Monk is able to select one at 4th level, then one additional every even level thereafter (6th, 8th, etc.). This gives the Unchained Monk a total of NINE Ki Powers by 20th level.
Unfortunately, many of the former abilities were turned into selectable Ki Powers. Including two basic uses of the Ki Pool (see above). If you are attempting to recreate the Core Monk by selecting the powers it used to have . . . you can’t. There are TEN that were removed (including the +4 dodge bonus to AC and the speed increase) and you only have NINE slots.
Not good.
Also, the expenditure cost of some of these is really, really, REALLY freaking HIGH. Which combined with the shallowness of the Ki Pool rather limits the Unchained Monk’s options.
Abundant Step: Unchanged from the Core Monk, BUT able to get it four levels earlier (8th instead of 12th).
Cobra Breath: A new power and one that turns being poisoned into an offensive ability. Some people will like it; for myself, it is kind of meh. One of the few that doesn’t cost additional ki.
Diamond Body: Ouch. The original Diamond Body was total immunity to ALL poisons and was always on. Yes, you can now get it three levels early (8th instead of 11th), but it affects only ONE toxin and you have to spend ki (as a standard action) in order to have a chance to neutralize that poison (as per the spell). I do not like this change, not one little bit.
Diamond Mind: An excellent power. Unfortunately, it doesn’t quite make up for the decreased Will save (see above).
Diamond Resilience: DR/- is always good. And this lasts for 1 minute and scales. Pretty slowly, but it scales. I’ll give it a thumb’s up.
Diamond Soul. Spell resistance. Either the bane of a Core Monk or a loved power (depending on your game). You can get this one early (by one level, 12th vs. 13th), but now you have to spend 2 ki (and a swift action) to activate for a number of rounds equal to your monk level. I’m torn. The point cost is kinda high, but no longer having a barrier vs. spells your party casts on you is also good.
Elemental Fury: What is this? Dragonball Z? It is not my cup of tea, but if you like having elemental damage on your unarmed strike, this is the power for you.
Elemental Burst: Oh, and now we can do massive AoE energy damage (at 18th level) by spending FOUR points of ki. Not in my vision of the monk at all. But if it floats your boat . . . go for it.
Empty Body: And wailing and gnashing of teeth began. There is apparently a typo which some folks have taken quite badly. They left out a line saying that you must be 16th level to select this power. Some folks apparently thought it would be appropriate to have etherealness at 4th!! Otherwise the same as the Core Monk, just available early (16th vs. 19th).
Feather Balance: I like it! Unfortunately, it is rather limited for selection as one of only NINE ki powers that you will ever receive.
Formless Mastery: We’ve discussed this one ad naseum, already. Maybe it would have been good if you could still select Style feats (just not being in a Stance while using the Power) . . . but as is, I doubt ANYONE will take it. And there is another type, it should be available at 6th level not 7th.
Furious Defense: The former AC boost from Ki Pool! However, it is now an immediate action (not swift), but lasts only until the end of your next turn. Sigh. I’d just have left it as part of the ki pool myself.
High Jump: We used to get this one at 5th level for free. Now we have to pick it. Bummer.
Insightful Wisdom: I do like this power. Being able to grant an ally the ability to reroll a missed attack or saving throw is pretty darned nifty! Unfortunately, it costs 2 ki every time you use it and it burns your immediate action.
Ki Blocker: How often do you fight monks? Or ninjas? Are you REALLY going to spend one of your precious few Ki Powers on something that makes those guys have to pay slightly more ki for the next hour? And spend more and make magi and gunslingers and swashbucklers spend a extra point? I didn’t think so.
Ki Guardian: Good concept . . . poor execution. The point cost is rather high (if you are protecting the whole party) and if you fail a SINGLE save, than YOU are affected as if you failed YOUR saving throw.
Ki Hurricane: Rock you like a hurricane! Good concept. I like the idea, but the point cost is EXTREME. At 11th level, it will cost you FIVE points of Ki (SEVEN if you spend a point to gain an additional attack on your flurry) to move and attack with all of your flurry attacks!! And you will provoke AoO’s from moving!!
Ki Metabolism: I like it. Very thematic and (for once) there is no exorbitant point cost. One question: there seems to be no UPPER limit on the amount of time one can spend in suspended animation . . . was this deliberate? A 4th level monk could (conceivably) hibernate for a thousand years (or a million)?
Ki Mount: Monks have mounts now? Pass.
Ki Range: Good power, although situational. Don’t like the point cost though; it should have been (in my opinion) “as long as you have at least 1 point remaining in your ki pool, you increase the range increment of any thrown monk weapon by 20 feet.” THAT would have been worth it.
Ki Visions: Thematic. Not sure how useful, but thematic. The cost is rather high, though.
Ki Volley: Who needs a ring of spell turning? Not this guy! Unfortunately, you have to be 16th level to select this (which is a shame because the cost is pretty much where I’d put it at 2 ki per use).
Light Steps: Love this power! Excellent job, guys.
One Touch: And this one is pretty good as well. As long as you have at least 1 point in your pool, you can make a standard action attack against any opponent as a touch attack, adding ½ your monk level in bonus damage!! Very nice. Even though it comes in late (12th level).
Qinggong Power: Pick any existing qinggong power and it is yours. However, if the same power is repeated in Unchained, you must use the Unchained version!! Barkskin ahoy!
Quivering Palm: Just why? Why the changes? You get it one level later, it takes a standard action, and you have to spend FOUR freaking ki!!
Slow Fall: Another one that we all used to have. Sure, it is better (maybe, since you have to be adjacent to a wall (not vines, not trees, not anything similar, but a wall) the entire length of your fall of benefit. Oh, and you have to spend ki.
Sudden Speed: Definitely better since it lasts for a minute and adds 30’ as opposed to 20’. Still would have rather left it as a basic part of the pool, though.
Water Sprint: Another good one. I would have thought that Feather Balance would have been a pre-req . . . but maybe that is just me.
Wind Jump: Very useful. I’m not one of these, “it’s fly but not really, so I’m mad as heck and not gonna take it anymore” people. For what you pay, it is a cool and useful power.
Wholeness of Body: As opposed to this. Too little healing for too much cost, same as the Core Monk. Sigh.
Still Mind: Unchanged from the Core Monk, but you get it a level later (4th instead of 3rd).
Purity of Body: Unchanged from the Core Monk.
Style Strike: And we have a winner!! I like this a lot. It adds thematic goodness and options to the monk and ensures that unarmed combat is always going to be the monk’s thing. I don’t like all of the Styles, but that is personal preference. Good job.
Improved Evasion: Unchanged from the Core Monk.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Dropped from 17th level to 13th level!! Otherwise unchanged from the Core Monk. I like this.
Timeless Body: Unchanged from the Core Monk.
Flawless Mind: If you fail a Will save, roll again and take the better result!! If it has a duration of 1 hour or more, than get a save every hour! It is great . . . but you don’t get it until 19th level.
Perfect Self: Mostly unchanged. However, they added a ki recharge ability (1 point per 10 minutes of meditation . . . well, they say calm, but I think they meant meditation). Which is wonderful . . . if it didn’t show up at 20th level.
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Overall, I believe that I agree with Dabbler and the others. Combat damage got a boost (a big one), but (almost) everything else was weakened, resulting in a class of about the same general power level as the Core Monk. Some of the things that I consider basic thematic concepts were pushed away and the Unchained Monk is weaker for it.
For my own game, I am probably going to add back in the constant powers it used to have, change the d10 back to a d8, and give it a good Will save. I like the idea and the concept, but the devil is always in the details and man, there is a lot of deviltry at work at here!
Still, there are many things that I do like . . . scratch that, that I LOVE. The folks who worked on this had many original ideas (Style Strikes and some rather cool Ki Powers, for example) that deserve to be part and parcel of the class. It just . . . well, to me it seems more of a Brawler archetype (in places) than a Monk.
Which is disappointing.
But don’t worry, Paizo. I’m still going to buy the book when it arrives at my local bookstore.
MA
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"Furthermore, there is no longer any provision for substituting disarm, sunder, and trip in place of an attack."
No need for special text. Each of these maneuvers can be taken in place of a melee attack, period.
"You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack."
"You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."
"You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack."
"Furthermore, there is no longer any provision for substituting disarm, sunder, and trip in place of an attack."
No need for special text. Each of these maneuvers can be taken in place of a melee attack, period.
"You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack."
"You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."
"You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack."
True, but the Core Monk had that proviso baked in . . . why change it and risk having it misunderstood?
MA
