Advice for Versatile Enabler Character Concept (PFS)

[cavernshark]

I recently started playing PFS in the last few months, but I'm having some trouble settling on a character concept to play through to 12. The issue I'm running into is that I like to play characters that enable and round out a team, but the variable nature of tables means that it's hard for me to do that effectively like I would in a home game.

My PFS location seems to be have a pretty heavy population of martial focused characters. Newer players seem to gravitate towards a lot dex-based melee. The areas I feel are often ignored are a few of the lesser used knowledge skills (history, geography, etc) and social skills. Arcane casters also seem to be at a premium with about 0 or 1 at a table.

I played it safe to start on my first character and ended up with an enchantment wizard for the base bonus to skills and feats focusing on conjuration. I'm almost level four and -- while I don't necessarily dislike the direction I took the character -- I feel like I invested way too far into diplomacy both with my stat choices and feat choices. As a result, I feel useful when I cast, but rationing my spells results in me often sitting with no good filler action in combat.

So I started a new character to try a few things out and I'm about to head into level 2. I spent my first three scenarios trying out different options (melee hunter and melee skald). I'm not sure either was exactly the right fit. I didn't like constant overhead of managing a permanent animal companion with the hunter. The Skald felt a little like I was trying to recreate the enchanter with more combat focus; it was maybe the right direction but something about it felt a little off and I think it was that I was building it too much as a martial front-liner.

So I'm turning to this forum for help. I've sketched out a couple dozen ideas on paper but have no idea if they'd satisfy the below needs in practice. So I'd like to know from some more experienced PFS players if they have any ideas to help guide me in the right direction.

Stats: I generally don't dump stats. I'll do a single 8 or 9 if necessary to maintain the rest of this list, but I'm not looking to min/max, just play effectively.

Skills: I like having options with skills, so getting 6+ skills per level would be ideal. This can come from any combination of favored class bonus, intelligence bonus, base skills, skills from familiar, etc. Skills I like to have access too are: Spellcraft, Knowledge Local, and Knowledge History. Skills I'd like to not be terrible at: Diplomacy, Sense Motive.

Magic: I like the versatility that spell casting brings. Thematically, I prefer arcane magic over divine, but a blended list would totally work too. I'd prefer to open combat with some kind of battlefield shaping, control, or party buff spell and then wade in with others only using additional spells as necessary. I *think* I'd like the option of summoning to bring out additional companions (see below), but it doesn't necessarily need to be the go to tactic.

Companions: I'm not incredibly fond of animal companions. I'm okay with familiars, but generally not for direct combat. Related to magic, I think summoning would be useful to pull out a companion when we need more front-line support (on the rare day there isn't a glut of martial characters).

Combat capability: I'd like to be able to contribute in combat outside of spell casting. This doesn't necessarily need to be (and probably won't be given the rest of this list) top DPR or anything like that, but it can't totally be ignored and should be something I could contribute each round. This is obviously more important the less spell casting is emphasized in the build. Bonus points if team work feats are a part of the build (especially if they can be granted to those who don't have them)... but I understand if that's not terribly viable.

General feel: I prefer characters who are a bit more cosmopolitan/urban to those from more rural/nature backgrounds. I'd like to work this in as a member of the Sovereign Court faction.

Anything PFS legal goes. I own most of the major Paizo books as PDFs and, if necessary, I'll buy the ones needed to make this work.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Can you post your Enchanter? Because that sounds like what you want to play. :) You've got ~15-18 PP which might be enough to retrain a few things to get what you want. If you're in a melee heavy area, you're just about to start shining at 5th, when you get Haste and Stinking Cloud. The first few levels can definitely feel slow for arcane casters.

[cavernshark]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Can you post your Enchanter? Because that sounds like what you want to play. :) You've got ~15-18 PP which might be enough to retrain a few things to get what you want. If you're in a melee heavy area, you're just about to start shining at 5th, when you get Haste and Stinking Cloud. The first few levels can definitely feel slow for arcane casters.

Sure. I'll keep it brief, if you want more details let me know but I think this hits the high points.

Cetys, Male Human Wizard (3), Dark Archives

Spoiler:

Ability Scores:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 14

Class Abilities:
School Specialty: Enchantment
Opposition Schools: Necromancy, Divination
Arcane Bond (Bonded Item, Amulet) - 1/day spontaneously cast a single spell from the spell book, no higher than highest level capable of casting.
Enchanting Smile - +2 to Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy
Manipulators Touch - Charm monster through touch for 1/2 rounds / level per day, DC 14 Will save, 7/day

Feats:
Cosmopolitan (Sense Motive and Bluff as class skills) - Human Bonus
Spell Focus (Conjuration) - replaces Scribe Scroll
Improved Initiative - 1st
Spell Focus (Enchantment) - 3rd

Traits:
Reactionary (Combat): +2 Initiative
Friend in Every Town (Social): +1 Diplomacy and Knowledge Local, Diplomacy is a Class SKill
Silver Tongued: +2 Diplomacy / Bluff, can influence 3 steps instead of 2 (Human race trait replaces Skilled)

Skills (notable included, total scores only):
6 points per level + 3 from FCB
Bluff (12), Diplomacy (13), Linguistics (8), Sense Motive (5), Spellcraft (10), 1 point in all knowledge skills except Nobility and Geography (scores range from 8-9)

Spells Memorized on a Usual Day:
2nd (2 + 1): Hideous Laughter x 2, Glitterdust
1st (3 + 1): Charm Person, Grease x 2, Ear Piercing Scream
0th (4): Detect Magic (2 Slots), Ray of Frost, Mage Hand

Spellbook (some acquired through purchase/scribing-*)
3rd: Slow*
2nd: Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, Gust of Wind*, Shatter*, Bull's Strength*
1st: Charm Person, Ear Piercing Scream, Grease, Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, Feather Fall, Monkeyfish, Memory Lapse, Liberating Command, Enlarge Person*, True Strike*, Shield*, Chill Touch*, Endure Elements*, Burning Hands*, Mount*
Cantrips: All

Notable Gear:
Wand of Mage Armor, Wand of Infernal Healing, Pearl of Power (1st), 2 x Scrolls of Endure Elements

I think the biggest issues I'm having are that, while I have lots of spells known, I can only ever break out a single one with arcane bond. That versatility is great, but I often feel compelled to use it to get another application of one of my combat spells so it hardly gets used for the intended purpose.

Additionally, given that most scenarios are about 4-5 combats, I'm pretty much stuck with 1-2 spell casts per combat. Ray of Frost was neat at level 1 to fill time, but with no dex bonus and 1/2 BAB I'm pretty ineffectual at even hitting with that or a light crossbow, especially if people are in melee.

I've considered just sticking with a full caster and going sorcerer or arcanist to add some more spells per day, but I'm not sure if that is the right move or if going for a 3/4 BAB class with spell casting would be smarter.

For some additional context:

The hunter build I was trying out was going to be Hunter 8, Cavalier 4 emphasizing using a reach weapon and teamwork feats to fight with my AC (a dog). I liked the skills, access to teamwork feats that I could grant to the team, and decent access to a pretty strong spell list (even if only 6th level progression). Flavor was a bit off for my tastes and ultimately I wasn't fond of dealing with the AC. I also felt like all my best spell options were just self-buffs for myself or my AC.

The skald was kind of a hybrid. I kept the reach weapon, but had Inspired Rage to handle the "teamwork" aspect. Some spells like those on my enchanter rounded things out. I had less skill points, but Bardic Knowledge made up that gap. Wasn't terrible, but as I said, it felt a lot like a martial version of my enchanter, possibly swung too far and with worse DCs (or just self-buffs like the Hunter), fewer spells, and slower progression.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

I really like your goals, and I have a few suggestions:
1) The Buffer Bard (Link to Guide)

2) I'm playing an Spirit Guide Oracle of Lore in PFS which is a bit min/maxed but has been fun so far (lvl 2) (post with build), after stating her out, I found that at Lvl 12 she would have +22 to knowledge checks with just a 3 to 5 skill pt investment (also check out the advice Gwen Smith gives).

3) I've been tinkering with a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor of Irori build lately, his knowledge checks aren't as versatile due to the the monster lore limitations. He comes in two flavors (Ranged and AoO). I have thought about picking up his first level as a Lore Warden fighter to allow access to more knowledges as class skills. As built now though, if he studies a creature before making knowledge rolls on its weaknesses he gets a whopping +29 (if he takes improved monster lore or a +27 if he picks up the Deific Obedience (Irori). Did I also mention they get trapfinding/disable device at level 8?

Ranged:

Sanctified Slayer AoO
Male half-orc (mystic) inquisitor (sanctified slayer) of Irori 12 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 99, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38)
N Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +10; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +18
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 28, touch 19, flat-footed 22 (+7 armor, +6 Dex, +1 insight, +2 luck, +2 shield)
hp 111 (12d8+48)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +13; +4 dodge bonus vs allies spells that have this feat
Defensive Abilities stalwart, trap sense +4
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +10/+5 (1d3+1)
Ranged +1 adaptive darkwood composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+2/×3)
Special Attacks greater bane (17 rounds/day), sneak attack +3d6, studied target +3 (3rd, swift action)
Inquisitor Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +15)
At will—detect alignment, discern lies (12 rounds/day)
Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer) Spells Known (CL 12th; concentration +15)
1st (6/day)—bless, divine favor
0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, guidance, read magic
Domain Conversion inquisition
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +10; CMD 30
Feats Clustered Shots[UC], Coordinated Shot[ACG], Endurance, Escape Route[UC], Friendly Fire Maneuvers, Improved Monster Lore[UM], Improved Unarmed Strike, Lookout[APG], Manyshot, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits fate's favored
Skills Bluff +7, Climb +5, Diplomacy +18, Disable Device +25, Escape Artist +7, Fly +18, Heal +7, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (nature) +16, Knowledge (planes) +16, Knowledge (religion) +16, Perception +18, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +10, Survival +7, Swim +5
Languages Common, Draconic, Orc, Osiriani
SQ monster lore +9, orc blood, slayer talent (trapfinding), solo tactics, stern gaze +6, swaying word, track +6, trapfinding +6
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier, acid (2); Other Gear +3 mithral shirt, +1 darkwood buckler, +1 adaptive darkwood composite longbow, dusty rose prism ioun stone, bane baldric, belt of physical might +2 (Dex, Con), cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, headband of mental prowess +2 (Int, Wis), lenses of the predator's gaze, bandolier, bandolier, masterwork backpack, spell component pouch, 39 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Coordinated Shot If ally threatens but doesn't provide cover gain +1 bon on ranged atks vs opp.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (12 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Escape Route You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving through spaces adjacent to allies
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Friendly Fire Maneuvers Allies who also have this feat cannot provide soft cover to enemies.
Greater Bane (+2 / 4d6, 17 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer) Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.

Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Lenses of the predator's gaze (10 rounds/day) +1 Bluff, Know, Percep, or Sense Mot vs not studied target.
Lookout Not surprised if adj ally with same feat isn't surprised. Extra actions if both are aware.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Monster Lore +9 (Ex) +9 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Sandkin These half-orcs face the world with a self-assurance that’s unusual for their kind—the result of a confluence of fortunate factors.

The beneficiaries of several unusual circumstances desert half-orcs move in both human and orc societies
Sneak Attack +3d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Studied Target +3 (swift action, 3 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Swift action, gain +3 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Swaying Word (1/day, DC 19) (Sp) Spoken word of divine wisdom dominates one person for 1 min (Will neg).
Track +6 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap Sense +4 (Ex) +4 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +6 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.

AoO:

Sanctified Slayer AoO
Male half-elf (Shoreborn) inquisitor (sanctified slayer) of Irori 12 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 99, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38)
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +9; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +6 Dex, +2 shield)
hp 111 (12d8+48)
Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities stalwart, trap sense +4; Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile elven branched spear +15/+10 (1d8+7/×3) or
unarmed strike +15/+10 (1d3+1)
Special Attacks greater bane (17 rounds/day), sneak attack +3d6, studied target +3 (3rd, swift action)
Inquisitor Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +15)
At will—detect alignment, discern lies (12 rounds/day)
Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer) Spells Known (CL 12th; concentration +15)
1st (6/day)—bless, divine favor
0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, guidance, read magic
Domain Conversion inquisition
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +10; CMD 26
Feats Combat Reflexes, Escape Route[UC], Improved Monster Lore[UM], Improved Unarmed Strike, Lookout[APG], Lunge, Outflank[APG], Paired Opportunists[APG], Phalanx Formation, Weapon Finesse
Skills Bluff +7, Climb +5, Diplomacy +18, Disable Device +25, Escape Artist +7, Fly +18, Heal +7, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (nature) +16, Knowledge (planes) +16, Knowledge (religion) +16, Perception +20, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +10, Survival +7, Swim +5; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Osiriani
SQ elf blood, monster lore +9, slayer talent (trapfinding), solo tactics, stern gaze +6, swaying word, track +6, trapfinding +6
Combat Gear acid (2); Other Gear +3 mithral shirt, +1 darkwood buckler, +1 agile elven branched spear, bane baldric, belt of physical might +2 (Dex, Con), headband of mental prowess +2 (Int, Wis), lenses of the predator's gaze, bandolier, bandolier, masterwork backpack, spell component pouch, 39 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (12 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Escape Route You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving through spaces adjacent to allies
Greater Bane (+2 / 4d6, 17 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer) Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.

Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Lenses of the predator's gaze (10 rounds/day) +1 Bluff, Know, Percep, or Sense Mot vs not studied target.
Lookout Not surprised if adj ally with same feat isn't surprised. Extra actions if both are aware.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Monster Lore +9 (Ex) +9 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Outflank Increase flank bonus by +2 if flanking ally has same feat. If you crit, ally gets an AoO.
Paired Opportunists +4 to hit for AoOs if you and adj ally with this feat both threaten the target.
Phalanx Formation Allies don't provide soft cover to opponents when wielding a reach weapon.
Sneak Attack +3d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Studied Target +3 (swift action, 3 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Swift action, gain +3 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Swaying Word (1/day, DC 19) (Sp) Spoken word of divine wisdom dominates one person for 1 min (Will neg).
Track +6 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap Sense +4 (Ex) +4 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +6 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.

[cavernshark]

B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:

I really like your goals, and I have a few suggestions:

1) The Buffer Bard (Link to Guide)

2) I'm playing an Spirit Guide Oracle of Lore in PFS which is a bit min/maxed but has been fun so far (lvl 2) (post with build), after stating her out, I found that at Lvl 12 she would have +22 to knowledge checks with just a 3 to 5 skill pt investment (also check out the advice Gwen Smith gives).

3) I've been tinkering with a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor of Irori build lately, his knowledge checks aren't as versatile due to the the monster lore limitations. He comes in two flavors (Ranged and AoO). I have thought about picking up his first level as a Lore Warden fighter to allow access to more knowledges as class skills. As built now though, if he studies a creature before making knowledge rolls on its weaknesses he gets a whopping +29 (if he takes improved monster lore or a +27 if he picks up the Deific Obedience (Irori). Did I also mention they get trapfinding/disable device at level 8?

** spoiler omitted **...

Unfortunately, one of the players I often try to match with at my location is playing an Inquisitor. I also found the hunter skills overlapped his a little too much.

The Lore Oracle looks cool, but it looks like it places a lot of emphasis on super high knowledge skills at the exclusion of a lot of else. In particular, the Lore Mystery + Lore Spirit seems like you'd end up with a lot of 'eh' spells on your spells known to make that work. Do you find this to the case?

I like the idea of the buffer bard, but am a little worried that the enchantment heavy spell list will leave me feeling almost exactly like my enchanter. I'd been dabbling with the idea of a Duettist / Animal Speaker archer and giving the familiar the sage archetype (since it replaces Bardic Knowledge). The familiar could take actions to perform, and even summon swarms at level 6, while the archer would fight from the back.

I know there's a fair bit of stigma around Summoners, but I've been wondering if I couldn't achieve what I was looking for by using the Eidolon as a skill vehicle (more like a familiar) and focus on using the Summon Monster SLA and buff/control spells and some archery.

I guess one question I have going that route is what's a minimal acceptable threshold to invest in Archery. Obviously Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Both Bard or Summoner could also get Arcane Strike. Past that point I think I'd want to invest in feats to boost Bardic Performance or boosting the summons, but I'm not sure if that'd sufficient.

[Zedorland]

Okay, I haven't tried this before, but lets give it a go.

I summon thee, Magda Luckbender

That out of the way, it sounds like you might like playing a reach bard. It seems like it would tick all your points for skills, social, magic and combat.

Something along the following lines:

Human Bard

Str 14 +2 Racial =16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wiz 10
Cha 13

(if you want to dump, drop the wisdom by 2 and up cha to 14)

Feats:
1: Combat Reflexes, Bonus: Skill focus (Knowledge Arcane)
3: Arcane heritage (Arcane)
5: Power attack

Traits:
Armour expert
Something else

8 Skills per level, good buffing through song, 2/3rds spell casting, and a significant melee presence. And a familiar, if you want it.

Your actions each round would be buff as a standard action (bardic music probably) and then move into position to threaten at reach to support your front line. Following rounds you would either keep buffing, or attack at reach. at mid levels you can start adding haste and good hope to your buff spells. If you grab a lesser metamagic wand, you can also keep heroism up on yourself most of the day, which should keep your attack bonus relevant through most of your career.

I am considering something similar for CORE, as this build gets almost all it needs from core only (barring the familiar, of course).

Bards are great fun, and always (and I mean actually always) have something to contribute in any round of combat.

Edit The Armour Expert trait is to allow you to wear mithral breastplate when you can afford it, to keep your AC up as you will be in melee combat.

If you are concerned about enchantment overlap, you can avoid picking offensive enchantment spells. Bard's don't know that many spells, and you can definitely avoid doubling up by focusing on buff spells, a bit of healing, and some utility.

[cavernshark]

Zedorland wrote:

Okay, I haven't tried this before, but lets give it a go.

I summon thee, Magda Luckbender

That out of the way, it sounds like you might like playing a reach bard. It seems like it would tick all your points for skills, social, magic and combat.

Something along the following lines:

Human Bard

Str 14 +2 Racial =16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wiz 10
Cha 13

(if you want to dump, drop the wisdom by 2 and up cha to 14)

Feats:
1: Combat Reflexes, Bonus: Skill focus (Knowledge Arcane)
3: Arcane heritage (Arcane)
5: Power attack

Traits:
Armour expert
Something else

8 Skills per level, good buffing through song, 2/3rds spell casting, and a significant melee presence. And a familiar, if you want it.

Your actions each round would be buff as a standard action (bardic music probably) and then move into position to threaten at reach to support your front line. Following rounds you would either keep buffing, or attack at reach. at mid levels you can start adding haste and good hope to your buff spells. If you grab a lesser metamagic wand, you can also keep heroism up on yourself most of the day, which should keep your attack bonus relevant through most of your career.

I am considering something similar for CORE, as this build gets almost all it needs from core only (barring the familiar, of course).

Bards are great fun, and always (and I mean actually always) have something to contribute in any round of combat.

Edit The Armour Expert trait is to allow you to wear mithral breastplate when you can afford it, to keep your AC up as you will be in melee combat.

If you are concerned about enchantment overlap, you can avoid picking offensive enchantment spells. Bard's don't know that many spells, and you can definitely avoid doubling up by focusing on buff spells, a bit of healing, and some utility.

If I went this route (which is what I was sort of doing with the Skald experiment, though my stats were different since I'd not planned to take Combat Reflexes), what archetypes would you recommend? Arcane Duelist seems like an obvious choice but I'd lose Bardic Knowledge and the Bonded Weapon at level 5 kills my ability to pick up a familiar with Sage Archetype to replace it. That said, it's still a boat-load of skill points, so maybe it wouldn't matter?

[Zedorland]

Honestly, you don't need an archetype, unless there's one that speaks to you for flavour reasons. Everything you would trade is pretty good.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

cavernshark wrote:

The Lore Oracle looks cool, but it looks like it places a lot of emphasis on super high knowledge skills at the exclusion of a lot of else. In particular, the Lore Mystery + Lore Spirit seems like you'd end up with a lot of 'eh' spells on your spells known to make that work. Do you find this to the case?

I like the idea of the buffer bard, but am a little worried that the enchantment heavy spell list will leave me feeling almost exactly like my enchanter. I'd been dabbling with the idea of a Duettist / Animal Speaker archer and giving the familiar the sage archetype (since it replaces...

You're able to change the Spirit daily so you're not stuck with the Lore Spirit. It actually gives a good bit of flexibility that way. The bonus spells from the Lore mystery are just bonus, you don't waste slots with them or have to cast them. You never have to cast them if you so desire. Just pick up the spells you want as spells known when you level up. So eventually you get your mystery spells, your cure spells, and whatever spirit spells added to the list you can cast in addition to the spells you gain from leveling up.

The ability to pretty dump dex and stack Charisma is pretty great. You won't do a lot of melee damage, but you're better than most Wizards or Sorcerers, while still being a full caster (with some decent buff and control spells). You're also great at social skills and knowledges.

Honestly you could drop the deific obedience if you want and pick up something else that you want and probably be just fine. When I've played PFS knowledges, healing, and spell-casting seem to be the lacking areas. There are typically plenty of high DPR martials.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

cavernshark wrote:

I like the idea of the buffer bard, but am a little worried that the enchantment heavy spell list will leave me feeling almost exactly like my enchanter. I'd been dabbling with the idea of a Duettist / Animal Speaker archer and giving the familiar the sage archetype (since it replaces Bardic Knowledge). The familiar could take actions to perform, and even summon swarms at level 6, while the archer would fight from the back.

I know there's a fair bit of stigma around Summoners, but I've been wondering if I couldn't achieve what I was looking for by using the Eidolon as a skill vehicle (more like a familiar) and focus on using the Summon Monster SLA and buff/control spells and some archery.

I guess one question I have going that route is what's a minimal acceptable threshold to invest in Archery. Obviously Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Both Bard or Summoner could also get Arcane Strike. Past that point I think I'd want to invest in feats to boost Bardic Performance or boosting the summons, but I'm not sure if that'd sufficient.

I think the reason most people grow to dislike summoners is:

a) they typically aren't prepared enough to not make encounters slow to a crawl.
b) they can end up removing the chance for other players from shining during combat.

If you go Bard, I think you'll probably want Lingering Performance as a 1st Level Feat, It allows you to spend an action once every three rounds to maintain your buffs, causing your bonuses to last longer at no cost. I find archery with Bards a little difficult due to it's feat heavy nature. I'd pick up rapid shot and manyshot before I picked up Arcane Strike.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

One thing to always keep in mind with Pathfinder is that it's a team game (in PFS you'll always have at least 3 other characters on your team), so you don't need to be a one man army.

Be able to survive and able to contribute. Try to pick a couple things and do them really well.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

If you're going Bard, the new Duettist archetype looks pretty neat. You get a familiar (possibly with a snazzy new archetype. Protector and Mauler could both be cool.) At 4th, the familiar can start Bardic performance for you, so you can wade into melee, or cast a spell.

[cavernshark]

B.A. / Markov / Zedorland -

Thanks for the advice, I do appreciate it. Trust me when I say I've got no illusions that I'd ever become a one man army with any of these builds. I think I'm mostly just trying to offset some of the weaknesses I'm feeling with the wizard at the moment. I know a lot of that will be alleviated as I go up in level, but it definitely feels like there are some big gaps in how I'm trying to play.

I ended up playing my enchanter last night because I wasn't ready to commit to a build on my new level 2 yet and what Markov said earlier wasn't entirely wrong about my desire to play my wizard. I'd say it was useful since it sort of reemphasized a few points for me:

1) I hate being 1/2 BAB with a d6 Hit Dice.
2) I'd vastly overemphasized my investment in diplomacy / bluff.
3) I prefer being a primary spell caster.

If you're interested in my learning moments:

Spoiler:

We ended up having to play up into a 3-4 tier due to numbers (I was at least 3, as were a few others), but everyone was game. I was, again, the only primary spell caster. Fearing idle time in combat, and knowing that my Ray of Frost or Light Crossbow wasn't going to connect, I ponied up some prestige for a Wand of Magic Missle. Through sheer tactical stupidity and a narrow passage way, I ended up using it to do about half the damage to a giant spider at the start of the night. It was unexpected, but emphasized that I do like having some filler attack. I think a 3/4 BAB would be sufficient (with buffs) to help augment some damage for the party, especially from range.

During our second combat, due to poor placement while trying to be social, I ended up almost getting myself killed with two back to back sneak attacks during a surprise round. I did have Mage Armor up and did not dump CON, but the attacks were still enough to almost kill me before anyone else even got the chance to react. Some of that is bad luck, but I don't like cowering near the back and I like being able to take some risks to keep the pace going sometimes, so having some additional health and better armor would have been nice.

That said, having not cast a spell during our spider fight and getting knocked out during the entire second fight, I had all my magic during our last battle. Due to a plot mechanic, only four of us made it there (split party definitely = bad). Our new opponent again ambushed us and managed to knock out Barbarian outright, leaving me, a Bloodrager, and our level 1 Swashbuckler. The swashbuckler was killed on the next round due to a very unlucky crit. The Bloodrager and I ended up having to duo the BBEG for several rounds and I was able to use almost all my spells to lock him down long enough for our Bloodrager to connect a few times and knock him out before he killed us all. This emphasized that I do like being able to cast spells and support the bruisers up front.

Based on this and your advice / ideas, I'm refocusing a bit on the Oracle (I've been looking at the Spellscar mystery, maybe with Wandering Lore Spirit), Evangelist Cleric (focused on casting, maybe following Nethys), or possibly a Druid if I can find something sufficiently support friendly and fitting how I envision this character (maybe Urban Druid, Wild Whisperer, or Nature Fang). Bard/Skald would certainly get me some of the above, but I think I'd end up just having traded full spell casting for some more martial power rather than find a suitable blend of the two.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

If you go evangelist cleric, you may think about Sarenrae. You get access to the Glory Domain (The 8th level is a fun buff). Also Fighting one-handed while holding a flag (flag bearer feat) in you free hand (while wearing a buckler) might be interesting. Make sure to tie both your sword and your flag to you with weapon cords though.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

As for Oracles, I've also seen people have fun with a Half-Elf Ancient Lorekeeper

[Just a Mort]

Bards are nice for skills, evangelist clerics are cool for buffs but less hot on skills. Lore oracles can get many skills too.

If you're bored with trying to hit with a ray of frost, try aid another with a whip its DC 10. Firing into melee gives the same -4 as the non profeciency from the whip.

Bards and evangelist clerics are the best buffbots.