Hey this is my first post, so be gentle. We are starting a new AP: Giantslayer. I have an idea bouncing around for a TWF strength based ranger. I have no decided on a race so those racial bonus aren't included in my stats and it will likely be a 20 point buy.
Stats:
Str 15
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 10
Feats:
1. Power Attack
2. TWF Feat: Two-weapon fighting.
3. Double Slice
5. Two Weapon Defense
6. TWF Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Cleave
9. Feat undecided
10. TWF Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Two-Weapon Rend
If I am set on playing a TWF Ranger, what do you think? Is this viable? Does it take too long to come online?
What would you change?
Thank you!
Cleave might not be the best idea... I might suggest getting TWF at first level and then Double slice as your bonus feat, save power attack for later. If you wanted to play slayer instead Two weapon feint might be a good idea. What are you thinking for weapons?
As for race, tengu might not be a bad choice for the weapon proficiency... although I would suggest human for the bonus feat.
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Cleave might not be the best idea... I might suggest getting TWF at first level and then Double slice as your bonus feat, save power attack for later. If you wanted to play slayer instead Two weapon feint might be a good idea. What are you thinking for weapons?
He can't take TWF at level 1 as his stats don't qualify him for it. I agree that cleave is a poor choice. It's only decent for reach two-handers, and not great even then. I'd replace it with heavy armor proficiency and pick-up a suit of mithril full plate around then as it should be affordable by 7ish and be +3 AC.
@OP - you might consider dumping Cha or dropping Wis a bit to get Str up to 16. Also of note - PA isn't that great for TWF. It's not horrible - but there are better feats. I'd take Weapon Focus myself.
As to race - half-orc would be a solid choice. Weapon Familiarity would get you the double-axe proficiency, and double-weapons are solid choices for strength TWF builds. (Let you get 1.5x strength when moving and do a point more damage than matched light weapons.) Darkvision is always great - and you can grab a bite attack.
Tengu isn't a great strength TWF race as their stats are wrong for it.
Well, if you are going with that strength, you definitely need to go human, half elf, or half orc, since your strength is.....eh....
You can go with other races of course, but then you need to put more point into strength in the point buy. For a melee character, is is somewhat subpar to have a 14-15 strength.
On a similar note- what is double slice doing for you here? +1 damage on your offhand during full attacks? Wait until you have a strength score to actually write home about before grabbing that feat. Maybe drop wis down to 12 and get iron will instead (you do not get level 3 spells until level 10- you can find a +2 wis headband by then; iron will covers and succeeds the change in will saves. )
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Half Orc, use Orc Double Axe, also grab Toothy for a Bite attack
STR 19
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 08
WIS 13
CHA 07
Feats:
1. Weapon Focus: Orc Double Axe
2. TWF Feat: Two-weapon fighting
3. Power Attack
5. Two Weapon Defense
6. TWF Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Feat undecided
9. Feat undecided
10. TWF Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Two-Weapon Rend
Might I suggest this point buy:
STR: 16 DEX: 15 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 7, before race.
Choose human or half orc and select strength as your ability to increase to 18. 15 dexgives you enough to select TWF immediately.
That should be your level 1 feat. Level 2 should be double slice. Use kukris as your weapon for the crit range.
If you're not really interested in an animal companion or spells, I suggest you switch from ranger to slayer. It also has the benefit of an easier to use version of Favored Enemy (pretty much).
At some point you will want to get a +2 increase to dex so that you can qualify for all the important Two Weapon Fighting feats. Don't bother picking up Greater TWF, it's not worth it.
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As much as I'm not a huge fan of using the monstrous races, the oversized goblins from the Monster Codex make for some great TWF builds. A +2 to Str and Dex, with a -2 penalty to Cha are pretty much exactly what you're looking for in terms of ability modifiers.
Although half-orc, for the double axe, or a dire flail if you go with some alternate racial traits is a pretty nice bonus. Then if you go Ranger and have an archer in the group, take Keen Scent, an Animal Companion, and hand the archer a bundle of Pheremone Arrows to mark targets for you and the Animal Companion to take down.
Orc double ax is actually not that valuable anymore, depending on whether you allow newer books. The Melee Tactic Toolbox release included a double weapon in the simple category- the weighted spear.
Nothing too impressive, but it still gets the job done just as well. The heavy bashy end also does bludgeoning, so you do not have to go golfbagging when you just want to smash a skeleton (make that end silver while you are at it, since the penalties for alchemical silver only apply to slashing or piercing).
I would definitely drop the PA and Cleave. The biggest hill to climb as any TWF or MWF(which you can do if you get the Half Orc with Toothy as Brad suggested) is the chance to actually hit with your extra attacks. Personally, I like Fighters, either the base class or the archetype, for TWF. The amount of feats required to truly balance a TWF and be able to do more is only covered by the Fighter, in my opinion. I believe that mainly because of the scaling factor in how quickly you can get those feats compared to the free combat style feats of a Ranger. This of course depends on whether or not you have the stats for the feats innately, due to the fact that you can bypass the prereqs required with a Ranger.
If it is the animal companion, the versatility of spell casting, or some other reason you are tied to the Ranger, then I guess I will not convince you otherwise. You should really focus on taking Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization regardless, but with Fighter you can take both levels for the extra benefits. Something else that I personally like with the Fighter is that you can take Weapon Proficiency with Wakizashis, dual wield them with either Keen enchantments or just get improved critical for them. At level 20, this will give you a 1d6+modifiers (15-20/3) which with a heavy Str build, you should have a pretty good chance to hit. With automatically confirmed crits, on average, 1/4 attacks will crit. This can and usually will up the amount of damage you can put out, seeing as how the TWF maxes at 7 attacks per round, which is almost averaged to 2 crits per round.
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Orc double ax is actually not that valuable anymore, depending on whether you allow newer books. The Melee Tactic Toolbox release included a double weapon in the simple category- the weighted spear.
Nothing too impressive, but it still gets the job done just as well. The heavy bashy end also does bludgeoning, so you do not have to go golfbagging when you just want to smash a skeleton (make that end silver while you are at it, since the penalties for alchemical silver only apply to slashing or piercing).
Quarterstaff has been a simple weapon with the double quality since the Core Rulebook. The fact that one end is d8 x3 crit with the brace feature that really steps on the double axes toes. The dire flail still has disarm and trip going for it, which is nice for certain builds.
Quarterstaff has been a simple weapon with the double quality since the Core Rulebook. The fact that one end is d8 x3 crit with the brace feature that really steps on the double axes toes. The dire flail still has disarm and trip going for it, which is nice for certain builds.Orc double ax is actually not that valuable anymore, depending on whether you allow newer books. The Melee Tactic Toolbox release included a double weapon in the simple category- the weighted spear.
Nothing too impressive, but it still gets the job done just as well. The heavy bashy end also does bludgeoning, so you do not have to go golfbagging when you just want to smash a skeleton (make that end silver while you are at it, since the penalties for alchemical silver only apply to slashing or piercing).
And yet the quarterstaff faced the same problems by RAW that unarmed strikes face- they can't be made of special materials. So that reduces their advantages and makes people look towards the double ax.
With a simple double weapon that can be made of metal, it is a much more viable tactic, and it doesn't need specific races choices or the use of a feat.
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Yeah, sorry. Didn't mean to make it seam like I disagree, I just meant to say that it's all the other things that come with the weighted spear that make it good, not that it's a simple double weapon. My personal favorite part is being able to do 2 different damage types with one weapon. I still think the dire flail is the best option, however going double axe with a backup weighted spear allows you to deal piercing, slashing or bludgeoning with double weapons. Although the monk's spade may be the best weapon if versatility is what your looking for.
Another thing worth considering- half elves have an option to get +2 to will saves and +2 against enchantments (such as charms and dominate spells).
It is not hard to get a fairly good will save with just a bit of investment.
Cleave might not be the best idea... I might suggest getting TWF at first level and then Double slice as your bonus feat, save power attack for later. If you wanted to play slayer instead Two weapon feint might be a good idea. What are you thinking for weapons?He can't take TWF at level 1 as his stats don't qualify him for it. I agree that cleave is a poor choice. It's only decent for reach two-handers, and not great even then. I'd replace it with heavy armor proficiency and pick-up a suit of mithril full plate around then as it should be affordable by 7ish and be +3 AC.
@OP - you might consider dumping Cha or dropping Wis a bit to get Str up to 16. Also of note - PA isn't that great for TWF. It's not horrible - but there are better feats. I'd take Weapon Focus myself.
As to race - half-orc would be a solid choice. Weapon Familiarity would get you the double-axe proficiency, and double-weapons are solid choices for strength TWF builds. (Let you get 1.5x strength when moving and do a point more damage than matched light weapons.) Darkvision is always great - and you can grab a bite attack.
Tengu isn't a great strength TWF race as their stats are wrong for it.
I was thinking that having Wisdom at 14 so that I qualify 4th level spells. And a lot of people have suggested dumping Cha. Is it not that important, despite being used for handle animal?
I was actually leaning towards a half-orc. I should have mentioned that we trying to stay within the Core Rules and Advance Player guide. It will be everyone's first full AP. Most of us have played a game or two just using the Core Rule book.
@OP,
What 2 weapons do you want to use and why? I think that's an important next question. You might pick all kinds of combos for all kinds of reasons.
You could develop a Tripping Build: use a Warhammer in one hand and a Sickle in the other. You'll be the Soviet Union!
I haven't decided on weapons, yet. But the double weapon does should like it would be the best choice.
What I was sort of envisioning is taking a Wolf and hoping for trips. I could build myself a trip, but then I would need int 13.
Does anyone have opinions on taking a dip into rouge for the sneak attack damage? If the Wolf is taught to flank, then it shouldn't be a problem getting that extra damage.
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As to needing a 14 Wis - you don't get 4th level spells for quite some time, so by the time it's required you'll be able to easily afford a Headband of Wisdom +2.
I wouldn't actually reccomend a tripping build. Rangers aren't that good at tripping - and TWF builds are already feat hungry. And frankly - there are a lot of things resistant or immune to tripping.
I wouldn't reccomend dipping rogue for SA. You lose out on far too much from the Ranger levels you'd be giving up. Frankly - it rarely makes sense in Pathfinder to dip outside of specific builds.
If you really must dip for SA - put one level into Snakebite Striker. That way you don't lose out on BAB or HP. (I still wouldn't reccomend it.)
Sneak attack isn't that great to dip for. The rogue lowers BAB and HP for sneak attack. To sometimes add 3.5 damage to hits. If you like it though going slayer gets you sneak attack instead of a pet and spells.
As to needing a 14 Wis - you don't get 4th level spells for quite some time, so by the time it's required you'll be able to easily afford a Headband of Wisdom +2.
Thank you! Makes sense.
Sneak attack isn't that great to dip for. The rogue lowers BAB and HP for sneak attack. To sometimes add 3.5 damage to hits. If you like it though going slayer gets you sneak attack instead of a pet and spells.
Can't go slayer. It is outside the rulebooks we are using.
Thank you for everyone's help!!