The new book is going to have new poison rules, but they are not here yet so we will go with what we have. I am in Dark Sun so I am still going to assume half-wbl. I am also going to assume that I still have to pay for posons, but the hyperpoisons do not add a cost, but they still add to the craft DC. With a slightly determined interest I can get a +19 to craft poison(alchemy), and about at +13 without it. I am also going to assume that craft DC is no longer added to the save.
A CR 7 monster has a +9 to its good save, so I need a poison with a fort save of 20 and a craft DC of 20 before hyper poisons are added. These are expensive .
Looking in the glossary and even only playing 1/3 the crafting price those poisons are going to add up, especially since Dark Sun characters are lacking in funds. However this puts the character in a bad situation. If they craft the cheap poisons the saves are much easier to make. If we let the hyper poison add to the DC again it can still be exploited if we use the craft DC = poison DC idea. My suggestion is to have the new DC be equal to the craft DC -10. That way my DC 30 craft poison check only gets me a poison with a save of 20 instead of 30. However at higher levels this might also not be enough.
Anyway on to the hypertoxin ranking.
1. Heartleaf Stalk +6 Immediate 1/round for 6 rounds The target is dazed for 1 round.
This is my favorite one as an assassin. It is immediate and if the victim fails the save they can't do anything. Even losing two rounds can put you in a bad situation, and you still can't act until the round after the save. A smart player will try to make sure the target is hit several time in one round to push the DC by +2 every time.
2(tie). Blossomkiller Extract +12DC 1d4 rounds 1/hour for 2d4 hours The target is paralyzed for 1 hour.
This one has more creatures immune to it, but if you fail the 2nd save you are definitely a prisoner or dead. Even the 1d4 rounds can be deadly. I might move this one up to number one, saving the dazing one for when I know something is immune to being paralyzed.
3(tie). Poisonweed Pollen +12 10 minutes 1/hour for 2d4 hours The target is rendered unconscious for 1 hour.
This one is similar in power to the one that paralyzes people. They are equal to me.
4. Whispering Wine +4 1 round 1/hour for the bard’s level hours
The target is charmed, as per the charm monster spell.
This one is also nice to use. It will target fort saves and bypass SR. It might deserve a higher craft DC. It gets ranked high for me because of its out of combat utility.
5. Cilops Venom +7 immediate 1/round for 6 rounds The target is stunned for 1 round.
Being stunned is not as bad as being dazed, but it is not much better. You are still in a bad situation since you are losing rounds. It has a higher DC than Heartleaf Stalk, but to me it is not as good.
6. Voicestealer Mist +4 Immediate 1/round for 10 rounds Renders the target silent for 1 round.
I like this one. It shuts down spellcasters. Bards will hate this the most since they can't use the silent spell metamagic feat to get around it.
7. Mindwarp Oil +5 5 rounds 1/round for 10 rounds The target gains a +10 DC penalty to spellcaster or psionicist’s concentration checks for 1 round.
This one works if you can keep making the caster make concentration checks. That +10 penalty is high though. Since it also goes against NPC's and GM's might not be happy about it, I would make it a +5 DC especially since the craft DC modifier is only a +5
8. Fright Toxin +9 1 round 1/round for 8 rounds Target gains the frightened condition for 1 round.
This one is not bad to have. Just like the confused status it will be useful, but I don't see it being as useful as poisons that just make you do nothing.
9. Disorientation Dust +5 2d4 rounds 1/round for the bard’s level rounds
The target is confused for (the bard's level) rounds, as per the confusion spell.
I like this one in social settings to cause a distraction. Of course it is still useful in combat settings wit the initial 2d4 rounds of confusion, but still not as good as the ones above it.
10. Kank Oil +4 1 hour 1/hour for 1d4 hours The target is sickened for 1 hour.
This one needed to have a low DC and it does. It's a decent debuffer to be stacked on top of other debuffers.
11. Siltwater Solution +3 Immediate 1/round for 6 rounds The target is sickened for 1 round.
With the kank oil I see no reason to every pick this one. The DC of the other one is only +1 higher.
12. Obsidian Spores +5 Immediate 1/round for (1/2 bard’s level) rounds The target takes 2d4 points of damage.
This one reminds me of magic missiles with the small repeating damge. I think it would be useful at low levels, but not so good later one. Since the number of known hypertoxins is limited I don't know if this one gets chosen.
The new book is going to have new poison rules, but they are not here yet so we will go with what we have. I am in Dark Sun so I am still going to assume half-wbl. I am also going to assume that I still have to pay for posons, but the hyperpoisons do not add a cost, but they still add to the craft DC. With a slightly determined interest I can get a +19 to craft poison(alchemy), and about at +13 without it. I am also going to assume that craft DC is no longer added to the save.
A CR 7 monster has a +9 to its good save, so I need a poison with a fort save of 20 and a craft DC of 20 before hyper poisons are added. These are expensive .
Looking in the glossary and even only playing 1/3 the crafting price those poisons are going to add up, especially since Dark Sun characters are lacking in funds. However this puts the character in a bad situation. If they craft the cheap poisons the saves are much easier to make. If we let the hyper poison add to the DC again it can still be exploited if we use the craft DC = poison DC idea. My suggestion is to have the new DC be equal to the craft DC -10. That way my DC 30 craft poison check only gets me a poison with a save of 20 instead of 30. However at higher levels this might also not be enough.Anyway on to the hypertoxin ranking.
1. Heartleaf Stalk +6 Immediate 1/round for 6 rounds The target is dazed for 1 round.
This is my favorite one as an assassin. It is immediate and if the victim fails the save they can't do anything. Even losing two rounds can put you in a bad situation, and you still can't act until the round after the save. A smart player will try to make sure the target is hit several time in one round to push the DC by +2 every time.
2(tie). Blossomkiller Extract +12DC 1d4 rounds 1/hour for 2d4 hours The target is paralyzed for 1 hour.
This one has more creatures immune to it, but if you fail the 2nd save you are definitely a prisoner or dead. Even the 1d4 rounds can be deadly. I might move this one up to number one, saving the...
Check the hypertoxins again, as they have been updated.
The kank oil and stillwater solution differences were all about when it acts. One's useful right now. The other is useful
The craft DC is now automatically +10 higher than the save DC.
Also, I clarified that the obsidian spores don't do 2d4 points of damage, but do 2d4 points of damage per round (as intended) until you make the save to shut down the poison. At level 5, that's potentially 10d4 damage. At level 20, it's 40d4. Since it scales without cap, I'd call that useful at every level. It's a poison that can kill; think Joffrey in Game of Thrones.
We'll get this right yet! :)
I knew obsidian spores did damage every round but i figured the martials in most groups will kill the enemy quickly enough that it won't matter. However i will look at the new rules you have and see if there are any potential issues.
My long analysis was eaten. Here is the short version. For about 70 gp I was able to still get a DC's of 24 and 30 at level 7. It was actually easier to get the DC 30 this time since the paralyzing hyperpoison has a DC of +12 but a craft DC only went up by 10.
The problem is that the poisons in the CRB go by the affect and the DC when they made the pricing. With hyperpoisons I am adding a substantial affect for free. The biggest culprit was the giant wasp venom which only cost 210 gp aka 70gp for me to craft, but starts with a save DC of 18. It was not the only one so banning that poison won't really solve the problem.
You are going to need a system that scales by level with the bard so the poisons are not too good, and also so they don't have DC's so low and prices so high that they dont get used.
Taken from the long version:
"When creating a hyper poison is it assumed that you are also creating the base poison, or does it assume the base poison has already been created? If you are creating the hyperpoison and the base poison do you still get to create the base poison in one day, which is not possible under the normal crafting rules? How long does it take to create the hyperpoison? Is it a standard action, hour, multiple hours?"
edit: I had crossposted the comment into the wrong forum. This is probably longer than it needs to be so I am just going to put it in a spoiler.
When creating a hyper poison is it assumed that you are also creating the base poison, or does it assume the base poison has already been created? If you are creating the hyperpoison and the base poison do you still get to create the base poison in one day, which is not possible under the normal crafting rules? How long does it take to create the hyperpoison? Is it a standard action, hour, multiple hours?
For the sake of this post I am assuming a one day creation time for both. So now the craft DC is always +10, but save DC varies.
I will use the level 7 bard. He has a +19 so he can push things up to 29 craft DC before taking any risk. Poison is expensive so the best strategy now is to use low DC and save poisons and augment them with hyperpoisons.
Well two of my top hyperpoisons have a +6 and a +12 effect on the DC, and a short time until they take affect so I will go with these two. First I will look at the dazing hyperpoison which has a +6.
Average CR 7 monster has a +9 for its good save. I realize fort may be the weak save, but we will go with this for now. In order to get a better than 50% chance I need a poison with a base 14 save and therefore a base 14 DC.
Blue whinnis does one con damage and them puts you to sleep. Since it takes. That is even better than daze if the 2nd save is failed, but at least one round of daze can be done and it only cost 210 gp. Paying 1/3 the cost brings it to 70 gp. That can add up if you craft several over a few days. For a boss fight I likely need a save of about 22, so now I need a poison with a base save of 16. There are no injury poisons at 16, but then again the hyperpoison changes the onset time. Contact poison can be used as an injury poison and Malyass root paste is only 250 dropping to about 80 gp when crafting. This is only 10 more GP, and now I can drop the boss. He might get lucky and make the first save, but he is unlikely to make 2 or 3.
Now let's move on to the paralysis hyperpoison. This is a +12 to the save DC, but still only a +10 to craft. Now the onset is 1d4 rounds which might mean trying to set up a surprise round or just holding out for 3 rounds. Focus on taking out the mooks if they are in your way, and wait for the results. Once again the save is not likely to be made 2 or 3 times in one round. With this poison I need a base of 10 which means I am spending less money. Black Adder Venom does 1d2 con damage. If it sticks more than once the fort save just drops. Of course if the first save sticks the bad guy is likely going to die anyway so I guess it won't matter. However what if I really want to make sure the save sticks? Of course there are no guarantees, but let's see if I can push this DC up by spending more money. Giant Wasp Poison can give me a 30 DC to the fort save and it can be crafted for 70 gold pieces. Now the problem is that the poison prices in the book(CRB) are based on the effect, not just the save DC. So I am basically buying an paralysis effect for 70 gp with a 30 fort save. That stays useful for a long time. Even going back to the +6 hyperpoison the DC is still 24 and likely to be put the fight in the favor of the players. Yes we want the players to win, but I see this as a cakewalk.
I was about to say to tie the DC to the amount of money spent, but the party might be more than willing to combine gold for boss fights.
Even if you push the rule to making the hyperpoisons adding a +20 to the craft check it won't solve the problem.
Rambling follows:
The best thing I can think of right now is to allow the hyperpoisons to increase the price and craft DC, but maybe not the fort save DC.
Even the wasp poison is eventually going to stick, and it's cheap enough that even in Dark Sun it can be worth it, if it paralyses people.
Every time I think of a solution I think of a way to counter it as a player.
I think the idea of hyper poisons adding a DC to the poison is going to have to go. The special abilities alone being added to poisons is going to make them very useful.
Of course at some point the poison DC's become trivial and the cost does not.
There is going to need to be a system that has the DC of the poisons used by the bard scale as he levels up. Otherwise save DC's will not be aligned with what the bard is fighting.
Okay... So taking the level 7 character with the Craft (Alchemy) of +19, she's going to craft up to 7 hypertoxins per day at 40gp each at DC 20 (blue whinnis + heartleaf stalk) to resist, DC 30 to craft is problematic.
I'm loathe to make this class ability cost (more) gold to use, and I want to put the more useful toxins at a high enough level so that you can't abuse them... So I can either raise the level of certain hypertoxins (like making heartleaf stalk available at level 15 or summat), or I can independently increase the Craft DC poison by poison to make individual poisons harder to craft. The second option seems more agreeable to me.
Once we handle this at level 7, I am going to do it again at level 11. If it is stable at 11 then it should be manageable for the rest of the game.
Feel free to check again.
Core (minus Bard tweaking at present), Base and Hybrid classes are set up. I'm moving on to Psionic classes.
So you made the more devastating conditions that also have a quicker onset time have a higher craft DC while not boosting the save DC as much.
That is a good idea, but it only slows down the bard for a level or 2. However I can still use fright toxin and boost the fort save to a "hard to make" DC 23. However I won't be taking 10 unless I put more effort into crafting poison. If some specialized in poison then can make it that DC 33 happen at level 7 most likely, but if poison is not the main focus like it is for my bard then they won't be the super poison guy until about 1 or 2 levels later. Voicestealer is also still really good at level 7 if the party knows they will have to deal with a caster. That 21 DC fort save is likely to be against a caster's weak save, assuming it is a poor BAB caster.
This is a big improvement though. I think we should hold off on this for now because if the unchained book, assuming you wish to use those rules may have poisons that are more aligned with their price.
However if you really want to use the main(CRB) book's poison feel free to adjust again, and I will look it over again.
I did not see your base classes in the updated pdf. I will also look at the defiling rules, which I meant to do days ago, so I will like do that before looking at the poison issue again.
So you made the more devastating conditions that also have a quicker onset time have a higher craft DC while not boosting the save DC as much.
That is a good idea, but it only slows down the bard for a level or 2. However I can still use fright toxin and boost the fort save to a "hard to make" DC 23. However I won't be taking 10 unless I put more effort into crafting poison. If some specialized in poison then can make it that DC 33 happen at level 7 most likely, but if poison is not the main focus like it is for my bard then they won't be the super poison guy until about 1 or 2 levels later. Voicestealer is also still really good at level 7 if the party knows they will have to deal with a caster. That 21 DC fort save is likely to be against a caster's weak save, assuming it is a poor BAB caster.
This is a big improvement though. I think we should hold off on this for now because if the unchained book, assuming you wish to use those rules may have poisons that are more aligned with their price.
I can hold off for now. I'll likely have a digital copy of Unchained soon, so I can look over any changes in the poison rules.
However if you really want to use the main(CRB) book's poison feel free to adjust again, and I will look it over again.
I did not see your base classes in the updated pdf. I will also look at the defiling rules, which I meant to do days ago, so I will like do that before looking at the poison issue again.
The base classes would be in a different segment. You'll probably notice that the races portion was in a different file as well.
Feel free to check into the defiling rules before we move on.
I didn't see a link to the base classes in this thread. I probably overlooked the link
But I will move on to defiling for now. I would make it so that atonement when used to remove defiler points has to be cast by a preserver. That way you can't get two defilers to cast atone on each other, and easily avoid probably the consequences.
Now we have the question of should the person casting atonement still qualify if they have been blackmailed or bribed. Since defiling is such a terrible thing, most NPC's would really strong encouragement to help even if it put their life at risks. In my games it would be like asking someone to help you to destroy life or most life on an entire planet, but maybe that is something best left to each GM.
One thing I noticed is that someone can probably keep getting atonement s or limited wish cast in order to remove defiler points. It also gets around trying to find someone who is able to cash wish and pay the larger amount of gold.
Maybe once you get 17 to 30 or more defiler points you have to find someone who can cast wish.
If you have 8 to 16 then you need someone who can cast limited wish.
If you have 7 or less an atone spell will work.
As for scaring animals they might use that to their advantage at times, but I would say an animal should pick up on it, once someone gets a certain amount of defiler points.
As for the sense motive DC to notice something is wrong about the defiler it should be easier to notice if they are more powerful, and it should probably be affected more by defiler points than character level or some combination of the two.
Every formula I came up with reminded me of Thac0 from 2nd edition, and I don't want anything to do with.
I might just ignore the check to notice it for my own games.
I didn't see a link to the base classes in this thread. I probably overlooked the link
I haven't put it up yet. I was hoping that we'd address core classes first before moving on.
But I will move on to defiling for now. I would make it so that atonement when used to remove defiler points has to be cast by a preserver. That way you can't get two defilers to cast atone on each other, and easily avoid probably the consequences.
It actually can't be cast by a defiler, because it's a cleric/oracle, druid, inquisitor (templar) spell. I suppose it could be added to an arcane caster's spell list through other means, but that's likely the exception, and not the rule.
Now we have the question of should the person casting atonement still qualify if they have been blackmailed or bribed. Since defiling is such a terrible thing, most NPC's would really strong encouragement to help even if it put their life at risks. In my games it would be like asking someone to help you to destroy life or most life on an entire planet, but maybe that is something best left to each GM.
I think that the atonement spell takes care of that, as it says that "The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds." If the person casting the atonement spell is being blackmailed or bribed, I think it would be a solid argument that the defiler in question is not truly repentant.
One thing I noticed is that someone can probably keep getting atonements or limited wish cast in order to remove defiler points. It also gets around trying to find someone who is able to cash wish and pay the larger amount of gold.
Maybe once you get 17 to 30 or more defiler points you have to find someone who can cast wish.
If you have 8 to 16 then you need someone who can cast limited wish.
If you have 7 or less an atone spell will work.
Well... If the defiler wishes to pay 45,000gp (or ceramic pieces) to the caster in order to remove between one and three defiler points, sure... You could pay 450,000 ceramic pieces to remove 30 defiler points if you really wanted to, but it's expensive. Since character wealth by level is going to be more limited (I think I might use the Heroic NPC track for PC characters), they can't afford to remove all of those defiler points. In point of fact, they're going to have to wait until 15th level to remove even a single defiler point.
If you're using limited wish, the cost is more expensive, removing up to 5 defiler points for a cost of 91,000 ceramic pieces, so an enterprising fellow could pay for six castings of limited wish for 546,000 ceramic pieces if three characters pooled their funds at 20th level. If they're able to find a preserver (or defiler) who would use a limited wish for that, it's still eating up a huge chunk of accumulated wealth that they could be spending on something else.
Wish is slightly more effective pulling 10 defiler points off at a cost of 153,000 ceramic pieces. 459,000 ceramic pieces later and you've removed all 30 points at 20th level if you and two allies pool all of your money.
As for scaring animals they might use that to their advantage at times, but I would say an animal should pick up on it, once someone gets a certain amount of defiler points.
As for the sense motive DC to notice something is wrong about the defiler it should be easier to notice if they are more powerful, and it should probably be affected more by defiler points than character level or some combination of the two.
Every formula I came up with reminded me of Thac0 from 2nd edition, and I don't want anything to do with.
I might just ignore the check to notice it for my own games.
I didn't want to make it too obvious, but I did want to make sure that the taint of defilers was something palpable. I thought about physical deformities like cracking skin, changes in eye colour, boils, pustules, etc... But ultimately decided that it was just cosmetic junk that didn't really do much of anything, and that could be easily hidden with spells anyway. I think this could work, even if not everyone wishes to use it.
Ok. All queries with defiling have been answered. I will look at the other classes again to be sure i didn't miss anything.
Barbarian-Fine as is
Bard-I don't know enough about Dark Sun to know if connected is fine as is or if it would be better treated like the ranger's favored enemy ability by allowing you to choose a new city-state every 5 levels.
I guess it can stay as is since I have no compelling argument to change it.
Clerics have elemental channel? Do elementals show up enough to make it useful?
Is the cleric required to choose a familiar instead of an item? If so then the wording does not state it strongly enough.
For the druid animal companions not listed as normal Pathfinder animals are you going to provide the stats or will the GM be required to convert them from Dark Sun material?
The same questions applies for paladins and their mounts.
Now on to wizards.
Unless it is impossible or almost impossible for outsiders to be present in the DS setting I don't see why Infernal Binder is banned.
PS:Any class I did not name is ok with me. I just did not want to keep typing the same thing repeatedly.
Barbarian-Fine as is
Bard-I don't know enough about Dark Sun to know if connected is fine as is or if it would be better treated like the ranger's favored enemy ability by allowing you to choose a new city-state every 5 levels.
I guess it can stay as is since I have no compelling argument to change it.
I hadn't thought about choosing new city-states every five levels or so, but since there were technically only seven city-states in the original setting, being connected would be pretty potent.
Clerics have elemental channel? Do elementals show up enough to make it useful?
Not specifically, but clerics on Athas only draw their power from the elements. There are no gods. In the original setting, they were able to open up small portals to the elemental planes and summon material into the prime material plane. This seemed like a reasonable adaptation.
Is the cleric required to choose a familiar instead of an item? If so then the wording does not state it strongly enough.
This is what is stated in the entry regarding the elemental bond. Is this not strong enough?
For the druid animal companions not listed as normal Pathfinder animals are you going to provide the stats or will the GM be required to convert them from Dark Sun material?
The same questions applies for paladins and their mounts.
I am going to provide stats on them. That's why certain animals are listed with red text. It's to remind me to take care of that later on in the conversion guide.
Now on to wizards.
Unless it is impossible or almost impossible for outsiders to be present in the DS setting I don't see why Infernal Binder is banned.
It's not banned, it just wasn't suggested. I think it might have been overlooked mostly due to the very strong ties to the Egorian Academy of Cheliax, which doesn't exist on Athas. Some similar archetypes were not recommended for the same reason, while others mostly just had the name and no strong ties to a particular place-setting on Golarion.
PS:Any class I did not name is ok with me. I just did not want to keep typing the same thing repeatedly.
Duly noted. Thank you for looking things over!
Clerics have elemental channel? Do elementals show up enough to make it useful?Not specifically, but clerics on Athas only draw their power from the elements. There are no gods. In the original setting, they were able to open up small portals to the elemental planes and summon material into the prime material plane. This seemed like a reasonable adaptation.
I don't recall elementals ever being a big thing in Dark Sun until you were a very high level Cleric or Druid, so the Elemental Channel ability seems to be of incredibly limited utility.
Have you considered using Variant Channeling from Ultimate Magic instead? It's not so dramatic as bursts of energy, but it provides more useful, and flavorful options for a Cleric.
Clerics have elemental channel? Do elementals show up enough to make it useful?Not specifically, but clerics on Athas only draw their power from the elements. There are no gods. In the original setting, they were able to open up small portals to the elemental planes and summon material into the prime material plane. This seemed like a reasonable adaptation.I don't recall elementals ever being a big thing in Dark Sun until you were a very high level Cleric or Druid, so the Elemental Channel ability seems to be of incredibly limited utility.
Have you considered using Variant Channeling from Ultimate Magic instead? It's not so dramatic as bursts of energy, but it provides more useful, and flavorful options for a Cleric.
It's certainly something to look into. I'll check it out. Thank you for the suggestion!
I hadn't thought about choosing new city-states every five levels or so, but since there were technically only seven city-states in the original setting, being connected would be pretty potent.
Ok, that makes sense.
Clerics have elemental channel? Do elementals show up enough to make it useful?Not specifically, but clerics on Athas only draw their power from the elements. There are no gods. In the original setting, they were able to open up small portals to the elemental planes and summon material into the prime material plane. This seemed like a reasonable adaptation.
You mean they can just summon fire into being for mundane purposes or use it as a magical attack?<--example only
Is the cleric required to choose a familiar instead of an item? If so then the wording does not state it strongly enough.This is what is stated in the entry regarding the elemental bond. Is this not strong enough?
Nope because the arcane bond the feat are two separate things. You can use the arcane bond without the feat, even if you have the feat under the normal rules. Part of your quote in the pdf refers to using both of them. It should be stated that getting an item is not an option, and that if you do choose to gain a familiar that it must be one of the elementals. No other familiar is an option.
It's not banned,..Now on to wizards.
Unless it is impossible or almost impossible for outsiders to be present in the DS setting I don't see why Infernal Binder is banned.
Ban was a strong word, but this is how it reads to me "You can allow it, but i really really think it is not good for the campaign".
Now if there are no outsider or if they are very rare then that makes sense, but that might also affect the summon monsters and planar calling or binding spells.
As for the elemental channeling it replaces a major cleric class feature. I would just replace it with an elemental based attack. Maybe an AoE centered on the cleric that deal elemental damage. If the cleric has too many channels to make this a good idea then cutting the number of uses in half might work.
You mean they can just summon fire into being for mundane purposes or use it as a magical attack?<--example only
A cleric can gate material directly from his elemental plane when he reaches 7th level. The amount of material he may gate is one cubic foot per level above 6th. The material is a pure specimen from the plane in question -earth, air, fire, or water. The exact nature of the material will be raw and basic; stone (not metal) from the plane of earth, air, flame, and liquid water from their respective planes.
Air so gated comes in the form of a terrific wind, capable of knocking down all huge or smaller creatures; it lasts one round.
The shape of the gated material may be dictated by the cleric (a stone wall one inch thick, a sheet of flame surrounding the altar, etc.), but it cannot be gated more than 50 feet from the cleric. Material may be gated only once per day.
Though not a granted power, a cleric can conjure elementals from his elemental plane when he reaches 9th level, since conjure elemental is a 5th level spell in Dark Sun. The 6th level spell conjure fire elemental and the 7th level spell conjure earth elemental have been removed from the Dark Sun clerical spell lists.
So... That's basically what they were able to do. I don't mind elemental clerics in this conversion being able to blast away with their chosen element. For the most part, it looks like it's "just material", but it can be formed into an attack (such as a gust of wind to knock someone down or a sheet of flame surrounding an altar).
Nope because the arcane bond the feat are two separate things. You can use the arcane bond without the feat, even if you have the feat under the normal rules. Part of your quote in the pdf refers to using both of them. It should be stated that getting an item is not an option, and that if you do choose to gain a familiar that it must be one of the elementals. No other familiar is an option.
I'm unclear. What feat are you referring to? Are you talking about the arcane bond class feature (ported from wizards) that can only be used to bond with small elementals, or are you talking about a feat and I'm just not clear on this?
Ban was a strong word, but this is how it reads to me "You can allow it, but i really really think it is not good for the campaign".
Now if there are no outsider or if they are very rare then that makes sense, but that might also affect the summon monsters and planar calling or binding spells.
There is no prohibition on summoning outsiders anywhere in the conversion (to the best of my knowledge). I deliberately chose the terminology for "suggested archetypes", and things that are expressly not allowed are marked as "forbidden" (such as wizard schools or sorcerer bloodlines). I'm not sure what's ambiguous about whether or not you can do something given that context, and personally, I don't mind the "suggested archetypes" reading as "you can allow things not on this list, but I really, really think it is not good for the campaign", hence why things not on the list are not specifically suggested. It's kind of like the list of rogue talents that compliment specific archetypes. If something isn't on that list, it's not forbidden for the character to take, but it's not recommended either.
Does that help to provide clarity?
As for the elemental channeling it replaces a major cleric class feature. I would just replace it with an elemental based attack. Maybe an AoE centered on the cleric that deal elemental damage. If the cleric has too many channels to make this a good idea then cutting the number of uses in half might work.
Well, it's an interesting problem. Hark's suggestion of using the variant channeling does provide a lot of utility, although I can see some players preferring that their fire clerics be able to belch a stream of fire or summat like a fire-bender from Avatar. The easiest thing to do, I think, would be to go with variant channeling and limit it to air, earth, fire, sun and water selections (based upon your chosen element, of course).
To use your suggestion, all I'd do is alter the channel from positive/negative to elemental energy (that does double damage to outsiders susceptible to that energy type; sun energy either doing the same as fire or affecting undead as if it was positive energy, but then things get more convoluted with sun clerics because the literature demonstrated their ability to burn things really well).
I'm open to input on this from all sides.
I am saying that by the normal rules you do not have to use improved familiar with the arcane bond class feature even if you have the feat. The pdf you wrote is worded as if to say. "If you use arcane bond and improved familiar together you must choose an elemental. However the player might decide to not use the feat. From what I understand you intend for them to be a package deal that forces the player to choose an elemental or no familiar at all.
I am saying that by the normal rules you do not have to use improved familiar with the arcane bond class feature even if you have the feat. The pdf you wrote is worded as if to say. "If you use arcane bond and improved familiar together you must choose an elemental. However the player might decide to not use the feat. From what I understand you intend for them to be a package deal that forces the player to choose an elemental or no familiar at all.
At 6th level, you gain the arcane bond feature of the wizard class, using your cleric level as your wizard level, and gain Improved Familiar as a bonus feat. You can only use these abilities to bond with a Small elemental whose subtype matches your primary cleric domain.
(Emphasis mine.) You get the arcane bond feature and Improved Familiar as a bonus feat. You can only use these abilities to bond with a Small elemental, etc... Since it says that "You can only use these abilities to bond with a Small elemental...", I'm not sure how you could read "you might potentially be able to bond with an object, even though you can only bond with a Small elemental" into that. There is no "if" involved. You gain the Improved Familiar feat for free. The extra feat is completely useless if you do not bond with an elemental, as bonding with an item is not an option. You cannot use the arcane bond at all, as written in the conversion guide, without bonding to an elemental. You need the Improved Familiar feat in order to do so, which is why it's included.
Unless there's something that I'm missing. If there is, then I'll gladly alter it.
It still could read as if you are only limited if you use both of them. Now I was 99% sure of what you meant the first time around, but after some rules debates I have seen here I have learned that if I ever write any rules that I should not give any leeway. However due to this discussion between us it should be clear what the intent is.
I think we can move one for now, and ignore it unless someone else tries to hard to avoid the restriction.
3 more days until the new poison rules are availible by PDF.
I am ready to look at the advanced or base classes if you ready to release them. If you are not changing how they work in Dark Sun then I won't have anything to say. I am going to assume that due to a lack of metal the gunslinger will not be allowed. The class also does not fit for me.
Oh, I was reading some DS material and dragons were mentioned as having stages such as Stage IX dragons. What book is that in? I might just use the normal Pathfinder dragons and assume the stages are age categories.
It also seems that planar travel such as dimension door and teleportation will be blocked. Did I ready that correctly? I think I saw that in the 3.x version of Dark Sun from the file on the Athas site.
Dragons are actually a transformation that powerful Defiler that have also mastered psionics can go through. Each stage required a defiler ritual and makes the defiler more dragon-like. The Dragon-Kings that rule each City State in Athas are probably the closest things to Gods that the setting has.
As there were 10 stages in the past I suspect that Dragon will become a Mythic Path in this version of Dark Sun.
Dragons are actually a transformation that powerful Defiler that have also mastered psionics can go through. Each stage required a defiler ritual and makes the defiler more dragon-like. The Dragon-Kings that rule each City State in Athas are probably the closest things to Gods that the setting has.
As there were 10 stages in the past I suspect that Dragon will become a Mythic Path in this version of Dark Sun.
Ok, now those stat blocks make more sense. What book are these dragon rituals in? I think another site sells 2nd edition pdf books. Assuming the Athas guys have not done a conversion I can use the 2nd edition books to come up with something. I will dont know if I will treat it as a template or prestige class though.
Dragon Kings was the early edition Hardback they were in i believe. It was basically a PRC that required defiler 20 and psionicist 20 to advance into, in addition to steadily increasing numbers of HD(people!) sacrified for progression. Also required GP investment in ritual foci. (the obsidian orbs)
edit* In PF, using them as a Mythic path feels like a nice suggestion. The amount of power Dragon Metamorphosis gave was fairly staggering.
It still could read as if you are only limited if you use both of them. Now I was 99% sure of what you meant the first time around, but after some rules debates I have seen here I have learned that if I ever write any rules that I should not give any leeway. However due to this discussion between us it should be clear what the intent is.
I think we can move one for now, and ignore it unless someone else tries to hard to avoid the restriction.
Works for me.
3 more days until the new poison rules are availible by PDF.
I'm eager to look them over.
I am ready to look at the advanced or base classes if you ready to release them. If you are not changing how they work in Dark Sun then I won't have anything to say. I am going to assume that due to a lack of metal the gunslinger will not be allowed. The class also does not fit for me.
I felt that the gunslinger class didn't really work for me as an allowable class on Athas, either. It was partly due to the lack of metal, and partly due to my desire to not rework the entire class to work for bowmen. Strangely enough, the swashbuckler works just fine.
Oh, I was reading some DS material and dragons were mentioned as having stages such as Stage IX dragons. What book is that in? I might just use the normal Pathfinder dragons and assume the stages are age categories.
As was already mentioned, dragons are powerful psionicists and sorcerers. They use complex rituals that include the sacrifice of thousands of lives and the use of ever-increasing sizes of obsidian orbs. Dragon-kings of levels 21-23 require 1,000 hit-dice of victims and a year's time as a part of the ritual to metamorphose into the next level. Dragon-kings of levels 24-26 require two years per level and a sacrifice of 2,000 hit-dice of victims to advance. Dragon-kings of levels 27-29 must metamorphose on either the astral or elemental planes with no less than 200 hit-dice of sacrifices (each being 10+ hit-dice). The final stage requires slaying a 20-hit die good creature in single combat that is capable of casting 9th level spells (or 7th level priestly spells, 'cause they didn't go up to 9th level back then).
The sorcerer-kings feared allowing their brethren to metamorphose too far, since the one Champion that they made into a dragon went on a decades long rampage that ravaged the region. Basically, Borys (the dragon) is largely responsible for the destruction that they all now live in. So, they don't really progress much in their respective metamorphoses, and cut down peers who do.
You find much of this information in a book called "Dragon Kings" under the "Dragon of Tyr" entry. I had thought that the Dragon Metamorphosis being less of a spell and more of a mythic path for defilers might work, but it would require the character to be 20th level, and that's not how mythic paths are set up. So... the alternative is having it be a prestige class that requires lots of prerequisites. I'm not sure which way things will go just yet. Personally, I would prefer it to be a mythic path, but we'll see how it works out.
It also seems that planar travel such as dimension door and teleportation will be blocked. Did I ready that correctly? I think I saw that in the 3.x version of Dark Sun from the file on the Athas site.
It would be imprudent to do so for a variety of reasons. Planar travel should not be blocked, though you really need to know what you're getting into. Waltzing into the lair of a sorcerer-king is going to be a very bad idea, since it's ridiculously easy for the sorcerer-king to draw upon your life-force just as any defiler can draw it out of plants, and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what they can do to you. Good luck on your suicide run.
There are a lot of dangers on Athas, so incautious teleportation is unwise, but there's no specific reason to ban it.
Best wishes!
The GM is in control of how Mythic Ranks are acquired, you can easily choose to only award them at 20 if it fits your campaign setting premise.
/helpful.
The GM is in control of how Mythic Ranks are acquired, you can easily choose to only award them at 20 if it fits your campaign setting premise.
/helpful.
True as that may be, that also allows for the GM to allow a character to begin the dragon metamorphosis at level 1, which is undesirable.
Thanks for the info. I think a customized template might be needed.
"Customized template" is really simplifying what I am saying, but I don't have any actual mechanics.
Basic Dragon stage 1 would require X amount of sacrifices, X amount of gold(also a good way to keep this away from players besides the GM just saying "no"). Maybe some knowledge and spellcraft checks would be thrown in.
In return you would get certain abilities.
Dragon stage 2 would require you to already have be a stage 1 dragon, and make more sacrifices etc etc as noted above, and the pattern continues.
At some point, maybe around dragon stage 4 the ritual is more difficult since it may have to be personalized much like a lich's transformation, but the number of sacrifices and gold still increase. <----suggestion
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However since most of the "how to" is flavor because players will likely never get to do this anyway we can probably take care of the mechanics first, and the requirements seconds.
My lack of knowledge wont be much good until I can get my hands one of those books so right now "we" is really "you". :)
Thanks for the info. I think a customized template might be needed.
"Customized template" is really simplifying what I am saying, but I don't have any actual mechanics.
Basic Dragon stage 1 would require X amount of sacrifices, X amount of gold(also a good way to keep this away from players besides the GM just saying "no"). Maybe some knowledge and spellcraft checks would be thrown in.
In return you would get certain abilities.Dragon stage 2 would require you to already have be a stage 1 dragon, and make more sacrifices etc etc as noted above, and the pattern continues.
At some point, maybe around dragon stage 4 the ritual is more difficult since it may have to be personalized much like a lich's transformation, but the number of sacrifices and gold still increase. <----suggestion
----------------------------------------------------------------However since most of the "how to" is flavor because players will likely never get to do this anyway we can probably take care of the mechanics first, and the requirements seconds.
My lack of knowledge wont be much good until I can get my hands one of those books so right now "we" is really "you". :)
Well, as it was in second edition Dungeons and Dragons, you needed to have sacrifices and you needed to spend gold on obsidian orbs (of increasing sizes) to help channel the "dragon magic" (sorcery combined with psionics). I don't intend upon changing that.
You're probably right that it needs to be a template. I think that we could find a way to make it a mythic template without too much trouble.
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I feel Mythic may be a place to start for Dragon Kings and Avangions, either that or epic PrC as it was setup that one needed to be able to cast 8th level spells and the highest psionic level. You needed to be a high level arcane caster and psionist, so it should be complex to go up in level... which is why Dragon Kings and Avangions are like demigods once they have finished transformation.
I feel Mythic may be a place to start for Dragon Kings and Avangions, either that or epic PrC as it was setup that one needed to be able to cast 8th level spells and the highest psionic level. You needed to be a high level arcane caster and psionist, so it should be complex to go up in level... which is why Dragon Kings and Avangions are like demigods once they have finished transformation.
Mythic actually isn't the place to start, and I'll explain why.
Mythic paths are something that can be entered into at any point. So, theoretically, by making the Dragon or Avangion transformation a mythic path, a level 1 character could also be a stage 1 dragon. This is kind of silly, and is undesirable as it permits low-level sorcerers to become horrific engines of destruction (or higher-order preservers).
Instead, it should be a prestige class (with mythic elements, specifically noted as a "mythic prestige class"). If I remain true to the setting material, then it would require a character that was both a 19th level sorcerer (or other arcane caster) and a 19th level psionicist. I'm not sure that I want to handle it that way, but I don't want to make it a mythic prestige class that requires five levels of sorcerer and five levels of psionicist instead.
I always played Dark Sun as low magic. There were very few spell casters of any kind, and magic items of any sort were very few and far between.
I kinda assumed that's the way everyone played it. But my groups started with the original 2nd Ed AD&D stuff, right from the start, so we didn't have all the other add ons right away.
The Will and the Way was an awesome book...
I always played Dark Sun as low magic. There were very few spell casters of any kind, and magic items of any sort were very few and far between.
I kinda assumed that's the way everyone played it. But my groups started with the original 2nd Ed AD&D stuff, right from the start, so we didn't have all the other add ons right away.
The Will and the Way was an awesome book...
Dark Sun is somewhat low-magic as described in the novels, but not necessarily in the game. Granted, it's not like you can hop out to your local enchanter's shoppe and pick up a +1 flaming longsword, but that's mostly because your local enchanter would have been converted into a pillar of flaming molecules by the city's templars long before he set up such a shop for being an arcane spellcaster.
This is not to say that clerics couldn't craft enchanted items, but wizards really are the best at it. So... If you're looking to purchase from the enchanter's shoppe, chances are, it's a cleric that's making your item. This is also going to limit the types of items that you're able to find (unless you're dealing in goods bought and sold in the Elven Market, in which case, you've got underground arcane casters crafting items for reasons that only the absent gods would know why, or they're dealing in items crafted by the Veiled Alliance, again for reasons that only the absent gods would know why).
I feel Mythic may be a place to start for Dragon Kings and Avangions, either that or epic PrC as it was setup that one needed to be able to cast 8th level spells and the highest psionic level. You needed to be a high level arcane caster and psionist, so it should be complex to go up in level... which is why Dragon Kings and Avangions are like demigods once they have finished transformation.Mythic actually isn't the place to start, and I'll explain why.
Mythic paths are something that can be entered into at any point. So, theoretically, by making the Dragon or Avangion transformation a mythic path, a level 1 character could also be a stage 1 dragon. This is kind of silly, and is undesirable as it permits low-level sorcerers to become horrific engines of destruction (or higher-order preservers).
Instead, it should be a prestige class (with mythic elements, specifically noted as a "mythic prestige class"). If I remain true to the setting material, then it would require a character that was both a 19th level sorcerer (or other arcane caster) and a 19th level psionicist. I'm not sure that I want to handle it that way, but I don't want to make it a mythic prestige class that requires five levels of sorcerer and five levels of psionicist instead.
In 3.5 and 2nd edition having that many class levels was not look at so strangely. So now the question is do you remain true to the setting, or you can stay with Pathfinder's idea that you do not get more than 20 class levels.
Personally I dont think forcing someone to learn the mythic rules is really going to make things any more fun especially for something that with or without mythic rules is almost going to be impossible to defeat.
If the dragon stages are just rituals and dead people and money it does not really say class or prestige class to me at all, not unless each level of the prestige class can only be advanced by completing the next ritual.
I feel Mythic may be a place to start for Dragon Kings and Avangions, either that or epic PrC as it was setup that one needed to be able to cast 8th level spells and the highest psionic level. You needed to be a high level arcane caster and psionist, so it should be complex to go up in level... which is why Dragon Kings and Avangions are like demigods once they have finished transformation.Mythic actually isn't the place to start, and I'll explain why.
Mythic paths are something that can be entered into at any point. So, theoretically, by making the Dragon or Avangion transformation a mythic path, a level 1 character could also be a stage 1 dragon. This is kind of silly, and is undesirable as it permits low-level sorcerers to become horrific engines of destruction (or higher-order preservers).
Instead, it should be a prestige class (with mythic elements, specifically noted as a "mythic prestige class"). If I remain true to the setting material, then it would require a character that was both a 19th level sorcerer (or other arcane caster) and a 19th level psionicist. I'm not sure that I want to handle it that way, but I don't want to make it a mythic prestige class that requires five levels of sorcerer and five levels of psionicist instead.
You could easily make it a general rule in Dark Sun games that mythic tiers cannot be gained before 20th level or something along those lines.
Why? For the same reason that Athasian Bards don't cast spells, and Athasian Inquisitors are called Templars. It just wouldn't be Dark Sun if any 1st-level caster could become a dragon.
You could easily make it a general rule in Dark Sun games that mythic tiers cannot be gained before 20th level or something along those lines.
Why? For the same reason that Athasian Bards don't cast spells, and Athasian Inquisitors are called Templars. It just wouldn't be Dark Sun if any 1st-level caster could become a dragon.
This sums up my thought on the Mythic matter nicely as well, and is stated better then i was thinking at the time.
There´s a prestige class in Ultimate Psionics, the Cerebremancer that does blend magic and psionics.
Of course you could enter there on level 7 and be on Prestige class level 10 at level 17 then, but that could be houseruled.
There´s a prestige class in Ultimate Psionics, the Cerebremancer that does blend magic and psionics.
Of course you could enter there on level 7 and be on Prestige class level 10 at level 17 then, but that could be houseruled.
Most of the dragons already have class level in cerebremancer. It is normally something like "Stage 5 dragon wizard12/psion11/cerebrancer 7".
Here are my thoughts on the matter...
Dragons on Athas are rare, powerful beasts that are as close to gods as the setting is going to get. Malicious, jealous, destructive gods, but you get the idea. Joining their ranks means that you're an incredibly special snowflake; one bent on rage and carnage. So, it shouldn't be an easy feat to achieve, and it's not to be undertaken lightly. Possible? Yes, absolutely. Easily done. I think not.
I am therefore fine with it requiring you to level up in two separate classes in order to make this change; before initiating into this mythic path/prestige class. The cerebremancer prestige class doesn't really do anything for me, so I'm probably not going to use it as a requirement to initiate into becoming a dragon. I understand Pathfinder's cap on characters hitting level 20 and being at the pinnacle of their power, but let us not forget that dragon-kings are special snowflakes. If you want to metamorphose into a dragon, you've got to be a special snowflake as well.
The same holds true of Avangions, but they're special snowflakes in a different sort of way.
In any case, I still plan on having the dragon metamorphosis require the life-force of many sentient beings and obsidian orbs to store and channel the magic. I see the metamorphosis as being a mythic transformation in and of itself, and in order to progress further along, you'll need to complete the rituals, not simply gain experience. This does not necessarily mean that you'll need to familiarise yourself with all of the rules regarding mythic play, but if you want to be a dragon in Athas, it's probably a pretty darn good idea to think about making your game a mythic one.
The new poison rules are in the unchained book and they do nothing to help our previous discussion. I guess we can go back to that.
First off, really nice thread. I love DS more than any other fantasy setting, have been working on some conversion myself and really appreciate yours and others links to their conversions. Saves me a lot of damn time and lots of good ideas from all imo.
Disclaimer in advance, I still have the original and revised 2nd edition physical copies. That is the version of dark sun that I love and some more recent version (4e coughcough) were TERRIBLE. If you liked 4e ds and your the type to get mad when someone on the internet has a different opinion, it might be a good idea to skip this whole post. In the 4e's vers defense, largely I think the classes were presented well with a few exceptions. :P
I don't recall elementals ever being a big thing in Dark Sun until you were a very high level Cleric or Druid, so the Elemental Channel ability seems to be of incredibly limited utility.
I believe the 2nd ed all clerics get the ability to gate their element from whatever elemental plane at level 7, summon elemental at level 9 and transform into an elemental similar to the dragon transformation after 20 levels cleric and psionicist. Channel Element is very appropriate to me, and a much more powerful effect than it seems on its face. For example, gating water WILL save your life.
The main problem I see with the clerics as presented is that there are simply not enough domains (I had the same problem). I don't think you should have sun listed as on without giving the other paraelementals love (lava, silt, rain and sun). Another problem with the domain is that paizo water domains are almost all cold related, which just doesn't work for ds. Also, I would suggest allowing summoners, but change them to elemental summoners and maybe give them spell access to one domain.
Believe it or not, there is precedence. It's small, I'll grant you, but they were allowed in 3.0/3.5. It's not something I would encourage people to play in a Dark Sun campaign, but I won't want to exclude things just because they might be difficult to play.
Well dude, this is just crazy talk. There is literally no 3rd ed dark sun, only a fan conversion. I would personally go as far as to say everything after the revised edition with the original 'accessory products' (Earth Air Fire and Water; Will and the Way; Dune Trader; Elves of Athas; a few others) should be totally discarded.
And really, the way I would suggest playing it is before all of the age of heroes crap but with the accessories mainly as it (except the sell some books plot lines). The thing is that Athas is not a land of heroes overcoming crap. It is brutal. Death is around every corner. To be a hero is a death sentence. Those who trust will be largely abused until they learn otherwise. I'll give my most honest opinion, the age of heroes was setup to sell novels, not maintain the campaign setting.
I won't go into all of what is wrong with 4e, but basically everything. Tieflings, goblins? Literally goblins were erased as a species in the source material so making them a playable race is like importing gods into the setting and acting like you are playing dark sun. Throw this version completely from consideration.
The mutant halfing crap from the Windriders of JC is just insane. Let's call this supplement what it is, an insane move of the power curve in order to revive a dying product line. There are some really interesting ideas, but as a whole it fails because you CANNOT COMBINE THIS WITH THE OTHER PRODUCTS IN DARK SUN or it. will. destroy. the. game. pahpahperiod.
I guess a lot of this is a history lesson so you can understand some context. There are still some very glaring problems with the source material that DO have to be changed. No matter how else you want to look at it, to me you have to change Andropenis' name, because it destroys the suspension of disbelief that a ruler would allow himself to be called that. (Through the years this setting has some of the worst and most inappropriate names, good lawd.) You have to change something in Draj, because it is far far far too close to real world culture and that just doesn't make any dang sense.
It makes me cringe a bit when you say stuff like 'obv you have to make the magic weapons with magic!' because the only reason that there are +2 magical bone long swords in DS is because mechanically in 2nd edition dnd there was no way to create psionic weapons. The only reason that there aren't +2 psionic bone long swords is bcause they setting wasn't around long enough for them to fix this 'quirk' of the time the game was designed. Psionic weapons are the only thing that make sense in dark sun outside of some very unique items. (or elemental magic at a minimum, but still there would be way more psionic ones)
Another lol example of this kinda stuff, there was a supplement called valley of dust and fire that had what was on the other side of the silt sea that is to the east of the tyr region. When the Cerulean Storm plotline was introduced, something totally different was drawn on the maps across the silt sea. Maybe this is exactly how it was explained in canon, but quite simply a lot of things in the setting don't make sense or were totally changed throughout the different version.
Some random things....
Re: Paladins, there are no reason to have these guys in dark sun. There is literally nothing that they can worship. If you really want to go back to the source in Defilers and Preservers, there is no way from Dark Sun to access the outer planes, where gods are found in the other dnd worlds (I believe this idea was drawn from the novels). If you include them, they should be elemental themed and have the alignment requirement (and all of the I am a goodie twoshoes abilities) removed.
I actually think Ki is very appropriate, but I would theme them towards psionic powers.
A small thing, but Druids in the source could only transform into animals from their guarded lands.
Pls don't take this post as a flame, I really appreciate what you are doing here and the conversions in this thread are definite improvements on some past conversions which I won't shame by name. Thanks a bunch to all and keep em coming.
And one last random thought, magic is not overpowered in darksun even if every spell you cast has a free meta magic feat, because all of your spell components are a capital offense, casting a spell will summon a crazed mob with a bloodlust for magic user and once you are known as a powerful/renowned spellcaster the character's whole life and that of their companions are all changed (read they will get the business everywhere).
Also, it is really not appropriate for most spellcasters to be single classed mages. Magical knowledge should be hard to come by, and my opinion is that dms should restrict spell levels without training, dedication, mentors, a stolen spell book or something. Want to be a pure caster? Bow before the head templar and he will happily teach his apprentice as reward for completing his tasks. The veiled alliance gets pitched as the good guys a lot, but each branch is wholly separate of the other branches and many alliance wizards are as bad as the defilers. Well, in my DS flavor at least....
GL all and happy RPing.
First off, really nice thread. I love DS more than any other fantasy setting, have been working on some conversion myself and really appreciate yours and others links to their conversions. Saves me a lot of damn time and lots of good ideas from all imo.
Disclaimer in advance, I still have the original and revised 2nd edition physical copies. That is the version of dark sun that I love and some more recent version (4e coughcough) were TERRIBLE. If you liked 4e ds and your the type to get mad when someone on the internet has a different opinion, it might be a good idea to skip this whole post. In the 4e's vers defense, largely I think the classes were presented well with a few exceptions. :P
......
We are actually using the 3.5 conversion site athas.org for a lot of what we are doing. We know it was never officially a 3.5 setting. I probably won't use all of Bod's rules myself, but this makes it easier than coming up with everything on my own. He also knows the setting better than I do so I get to save myself some reading. :)
You seem to know the setting also, so that is also good. Any help would be appreciated.
What is the Age of Heroes? I guess I mean what year did it begin in? I don't see it mentioned on the Athas.org site.
PS: I am not even aware of any 4E changes so that won't even be an influence for me. I never read the 4E flavor for it.
And one last random thought, magic is not overpowered in darksun even if every spell you cast has a free meta magic feat, because all of your spell components are a capital offense, casting a spell will summon a crazed mob with a bloodlust for magic user and once you are known as a powerful/renowned spellcaster the character's whole life and that of their companions are all changed (read they will get the business everywhere).
Also, it is really not appropriate for most spellcasters to be single classed mages. Magical knowledge should be hard to come by, and my opinion is that dms should restrict spell levels without training, dedication, mentors, a stolen spell book or something. Want to be a pure caster? Bow before the head templar and he will happily teach his apprentice as reward for completing his tasks. The veiled alliance gets pitched as the good guys a lot, but each branch is wholly separate of the other branches and many alliance wizards are as bad as the defilers. Well, in my DS flavor at least....
GL all and happy RPing.
Not going to agree with all of this, and of course I have to explain why.
The druid thing makes sense to an extent because druids can only change into creatures they know about.
I did not know spell components were a capital offense, but it does make sense for a world that hate arcane magic to see them as contraband.
Darksun may have said mobs attack casters, but its not logical, unless of course they are so feared that allowing them to live is worse than death. Then I could agree.
As to having mentors that also does not make sense. If people in other settings can learn on their own once they are level 1, there is no reason why DS should have that restriction, other than to say it's DS. However DS exist in the same universe as the other settings and DS has no mystical force that makes it harder to learn magic that I know of. Also, templars from what I have been told are divine casters, and not every caster is appropriate to teach every other caster. I don't seem them knowing how to tell someone how to add spells to a familiar for witch or spellbook for a wizard.
PS: That "Andropenis" name is weird. I can take it as a coincidence if other names sound like ours, but names like that do not make the campaign sound as serious as it should be IMHO, so I might change those.
We are actually using the 3.5 conversion site athas.org for a lot of what we are doing. We know it was never officially a 3.5 setting. I probably won't use all of Bod's rules myself, but this makes it easier than coming up with everything on my own. He also knows the setting better than I do so I get to save myself some reading. :)
It has saved me a lot of reading as well. It spells out how the planes work (same info from the defilers and preservers) in a much more concise and clear way than the canon materials. Generally I really like that conversion and it hits the mark with the 2e canon in most all ways. I didn't notice if there were Paladins in it, but I just wanted to make sure people didn't think there was canon 3.5 DS, and surely not paladins in canon in 2e. :D
What is the Age of Heroes? I guess I mean what year did it begin in? I don't see it mentioned on the Athas.org site.
Sorry in advance if I mess some names up because I am typing this from memory.
The original campaign setting is set in the Age of Kings, where all of the city states are run by a different sorcerer king. (Disclaimer I have never read these books /disclaimer) The Age of Heroes kicks off with Titian and the novel characters kill Kalak, the Sorcerer-King of Tyr, creating the free state of Tyr (this is where the revised campaign setting starts and that is the character creation that includes aarakocra and pterran, neither of which were in the original campaign setting).
This drives most of the metaplot throughout the accessory products, upto I think defilers and preservers, windriders of the cliffs. You can tell because the book designs changed, also if you see reference of the Cerulean Storm that is 'post age of heroes' although technically calendar wise I think it is still the Age of Heroes. Surprise surprise, Cerulean Storm named for a novel, yawn. Raistlin made these guys too much money!!!
There are ages before the Age of Kings as well, notably the Blue Age where only halflings exist and there are great oceans, the Brown Age where a malfunction of the lens turns the ocean brown, and so on. Somewhere in here before the Age of Kings is an Age of Champions or named something like that where Rajaat appoints his champions that kill off the specific races. There were many races that were successfully exterminated by all-human, defiler-champions, until the champions realize that Rajaat planned to give Athas back to the halflings, then they trap him in the black I think.
I did not know spell components were a capital offense, but it does make sense for a world that hate arcane magic to see them as contraband.
Darksun may have said mobs attack casters, but its not logical, unless of course they are so feared that allowing them to live is worse than death. Then I could agree.
Most won't know what spellbeads are, but those who do will.... extort you, report you to the templars/guards, form lynch mob, shun you or similar. For example an enchanter focused preserver might get by for a long time even occasionally casting. They just have to successfully hide their casting and most will think it is mind effecting psionics (until they probe your mind!). The guy hurling fireballs is going to have a harder time.
The reasoning is simple, Athas used to be a fertile planet until defiling destroyed it. There is also misinformation where the Sorcerer-Kings claim to be gods (but are actually just magic users) and that evil magic users destroyed the earth. This lie serves their purposes well as they don't really like competition and fear is always useful for a dictator.
Also, templars from what I have been told are divine casters, and not every caster is appropriate to...
Yes, Templars are divine casters and don't count in the above. They also don't defile unless they are defilers as well. This is pretty common as they are trusted associates of their Sorcerer-King, so the knowledge is freely available if they earn trust. For example, maybe a templar spends a few levels and becomes a level 5 'cleric' of his Sorcerer-Queen. Then after that becomes a 7 defiler. In my ideal rule set, you would metamagic all of your defiler spells (and in fact require defiling to work at all), but the templar spells would have to be metamagiced normally. Sorry I know I kinda mixed them before so that was maybe a bit confusing. It is very common in game for a templar to later become a defiler.
As to having mentors that also does not make sense. If people in other settings can learn on their own once they are level 1, there is no reason why DS should have that restriction,
I don't really want to turn this into that thread where I tell everyone else how I think dnd should be played, but personally I feel every single bit of character development is important. It is kinda like the above discussing mythic classes and feeling the need to disallow a dm from doing something that is clearly a bad idea. If ya'll wanna have stuff that doesn't make any sense at all in your games that is on you. DS is much different in that you can't walk down the street and buy a scroll or find a teacher in the open market. In that way it is definitely different.
All just my opinions, thanks again.
Gentlefolk,
I'll throw some random thoughts out there. The first is "Andropinis", which I pronounce more like "Ann-drop-in-iss", not "Andro-penis". I don't see any particular reason to change the name from the source material.
Age of Heroes: This is really where the novels take place and several of the sorcerer-kings end up dead. It creates some pretty big changes to the setting material, and the plan is to set the conversion prior to Kalak's assassination (by Tithian [one of his High Templars/psionicist], Sadira [sorceress], Rikus [mul gladiator], Neeva [human gladiator] and Agis [psionicist]; Kalak was the first of the sorcerer-kings to die). If players want to play through that storyline and assassinate Kalak themselves, that's fine. If they'd rather do other things, that's fine, too. I may or may not include write-ups for the heroes themselves (and probably include Caelum and Rkard as well, both sun clerics).
Regarding para-elemental clerics: They don't really add that much to the setting, and I made an allowance for sun-clerics because they featured pretty heavily in the novels (and were pretty cool). That, and I'm not eager to write up lava, silt or rain domains, but air, earth, fire, water and sun already exist, so they were included.
Spell components: They are, indeed, a capital offense and one of the quickest ways of identifying sorcerers. If you deal in or possess spell components, you're risking your life.
Magical Knowledge: I'm purposefully not restricting it because of the inherent restrictions in the setting. Why restrict magical knowledge (or the search thereof) when everything in the setting is out to get you if you use it? I don't mind the path of self-discovery. After all, Rajaat discovered magic, and he had nothing to go on. At least your player characters will know that magical things can be done.
Poison: So... Where do we stand?
I look forward to continuing our work together.
<3 Bod, love how you breeze over a bunch of stuff, granted a lot of it is flavor stuff that has been discussed somewhat already. FWIW, I rename Andropinis 'Balic' in my game and I think that's the easiest thing to do.
Anyrate, I am putting together a list of domains by elemental/paraelemental type and reworking the domains where needed (byyyyyeeee ice spells, protective sun spells, and a bunch of special abilities that don't really work). Here is my working list of domains for the moment. I will rework the special abilities and spells next, hopefully within the next few days.
domains lists by elemental type, drafto numero 1.3
air: air, chaos, freedom, good, language, liberation, luck, protection, revolution, trade, travel, wind
rain: air, chaos, cloud, good, growth, healing, luck, protection, purity, restoration, storms, water, weather
water: community, growth, good, healing, home, plant, protection, purity, restoration, water
silt: catastrophy, chaos, decay, destruction, earth, evil, insanity, madness, trickery, water, undead
earth: caves, community, construct, defense, earth, exploration, home, metal, law, protection, repose, resolve, strength, toil
magma: ash, catastrophy, caves, chaos, destruction, earth, evil, exploration, ferocity, fire, insanity, madness, rage, strength, undead
fire: ash, catastrophy, chaos, destruction, evil, ferocity, fire, insanity, liberation, madness, rage, revolution, smoke
sun: air, ash, chaos, catastrophy, day, decay, destruction, evil, fire, insanity, light, madness, rage, sun, trickery, undead